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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 2, 2009 22:33:17 GMT -5
A few years ago I got kicked out of a shopping centre that I wasn't a member of? It is possible. That's fascinating. How is it that I always got to the same shopping centre to do my shopping despite not being a member. Obviously I have corrected my behaviour since I got kicked out, and they let me in.I sure hope you have more really good stuff to share about your amazing experiences!! This ranks right up there with your wheat field information.... Like you said..... pretty deep stuff here. At least for you I guess.... Scott
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Post by ilylo on Jan 2, 2009 22:48:41 GMT -5
Calling yourself names again? I'd like to continue to spar with you but the day has come to an end good night. Good night. I anticipate reading your hatred another day.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2009 0:43:48 GMT -5
Pray, explain to me just why you can't have it both ways ? Charitable deeds need not be done in any great showy way. Come to think of it the church I attend does good charitable deeds, but they don't go about boasting about it or singing their own praises from the highest heavens. I overcame that worker propaganda ages ago. I wasn't the one who said you couldn't have it both ways, Ram...you were the one who insinuated that the workers taught nothing but the outward form of works, works, works.....then you said you thought it needed to be the inward part that was God's work. It made me think that you thought it wasn't possible that the inward part had not been done by the workers or anyone the workers were talking to so that they felt free to try to get people to do the outward works that show that the inward works by God had been done or was being done. I apologise Siwells for not wording my answer better. However, it was YOU who inserted the words "outward form," not me ! Perhaps you were reading things that weren't there? In any case, I'll take the blame.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2009 0:49:17 GMT -5
So to you and ram will you stop doing the tip toe dance around the questions, and answer them. Or are you who oppose us afraid of convicting your selves and your selfish motives? Okay White Knight, I do confess to having gone to ballet lessons. I wasn't very good at it. Can you refresh my poor memory regarding the tip toe dance around the questions? I'd like to get that one right. You're right in your last line. Sometimes we do feel like we are kicking against the p r i c k s ! Thanks for your understanding.
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Post by Happy Feet on Jan 3, 2009 3:35:22 GMT -5
Poor example, Todd. One does not have to be a member of a shopping centre to shop there. One does not profess in order to attend that shopping centre. However, one does need to profess in your church in order to partake fully in Sunday morning meeting and belong.
You're scratching for examples if you use attendance at shopping centres to compare with attending church. As someone said, we can't take you seriously.
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msew
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Posts: 127
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Post by msew on Jan 3, 2009 5:03:41 GMT -5
Hi siwells,
" Living the Christian life is what believers do AFTER they hear and believe the Gospel.
You also stated you have an issue with the workers changing the gospel into something that the gospel doesn't contain...but then you say that the "believers do AFTER they hear and believe the Gospel."
My question for you to clarify is this: When you went to gospel mtgs. under the auspices of any worker...was it not true that MOST the people listening were already "believers"?
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I guess once again it's hard to be concise and yet explain clearly what I meant.
I'm saying I didn't hear the true Biblical Gospel from workers. I heard the F&W's gospel which differs greatly from what the Bible says the Gospel is and how people are saved.
All people who claim to be Christians believe. What matters is WHAT they believe. As a 2X2 I believed like those around me in the meetings that I couldn't know if I was saved until death and that Jesus life was our example for living to please God. If our lives were counted worthy when we died then we would have eternal life. Faithfulness to God (meeting, mission and convention attendance and being like Jesus) was what brought eventual salvation.
What I'm pointing out is the false teaching that salvation is gained by human effort. That's the teaching I heard for nearly 30 years.
You pointed out I was insinuating that being saved by grace was a license to sin. I don't believe that at all but I also don't believe that our efforts of faithfulness, sacrifice, self denial etc. bring salvation. They are part of living the Christian life but not as a pre-requisite for salvation.
The workers I heard believe they alone have the message that saves and fellowship with them is the only right and true fellowship. The workers I heard also believe those who leave their group have lost the "spirit". The workers I heard never mentioned grace. When I pointed that out to them they said "God hadn't told them to speak about it yet". And that is the whole principal on which salvation rests! What Gospel can be void of grace?
As Nathan says the workers preach a gospel/salvation "package." "Faith Form, Message and 2X2Messengers. They all go hand in hand."
Faith in anything other than Christ alone is adding to the Good News of the Gospel and makes Christ of none effect.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Yes I agree that mission meetings are mostly for those who are already 2X2 believers and the workers speak mainly to edify and build up those believers. But still God's Gospel of grace should permeate all preaching so that none are left with any false views of God and how He saves.
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Post by todd on Jan 3, 2009 8:26:32 GMT -5
A few years ago I got kicked out of a shopping centre that I wasn't a member of? It is possible. That's fascinating. How is it that I always go to the same shopping centre to do my shopping despite not being a member. Obviously I have corrected my behaviour since I got kicked out, and they let me in.I sure hope you have more really good stuff to share about your amazing experiences!! This ranks right up there with your wheat field information.... Like you said..... pretty deep stuff here. At least for you I guess.... Scott No it's not really deep. I got kicked out of a shopping centre. I wasn't a member of that shopping centre. That's it. It wasn't really anything amazing, but quite hilarious what lead up to it... I'm not sure you are quite ready for the deep stuff though
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Post by todd on Jan 3, 2009 8:51:53 GMT -5
Poor example, Todd. One does not have to be a member of a shopping centre to shop there. Just the same as one does not have to be a member of any denomination to serve God. The act of shopping at the centre is a profession that you are happy to shop there and believe that it is ok to do so. Maybe you don't know what professing means?! Sunday mornings are for fellowship. Let me know if you don't know what that means because I would love to explain it to you I was actually using it to show that it is possible to be 'booted' from something that you aren't a member of. It was you who bought up the professing thing and attending church. If the example was no good let me know and I'll think of something else, but the facts are that I got kicked out of a shopping centre that I wasn't a member of. I'm not sure how that isn't a good example of how it is possible for this to happen. In fact, it did happen. I have witnesses
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Post by todd on Jan 3, 2009 9:39:13 GMT -5
As a 2X2 I believed like those around me in the meetings that I couldn't know if I was saved until death So what is it that makes you feel like there is no possible way that you can miss out on salvation? These are the sort of comments that make people assume that you think you can sin all you want because it doesn't matter what happens between now and death, and how ungodly you could possibly become, that you will be saved. Maybe you should read your bible and you will see that there are things that we need to be doing. Not that is is possible, or that God even wants us to, do these this by our own human reasoning or strength. If they are part of being a Christian, and it goes without saying that being a Christian IS a prerequisite for salvation, then that means that they are also a prerequisite for salvation. I think you are arguing with yourself here. You admit that there is something more than just trusting that grace is going to save you regardless of the sinful life you live, but then you go on to quote all verses to try to justify a belief that you can rely solely on grace, which leads people to believe that you are saying that it is OK to continue in sin.
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Post by Sharon on Jan 3, 2009 10:28:14 GMT -5
Poor example, Todd. One does not have to be a member of a shopping centre to shop there. One does not profess in order to attend that shopping centre. However, one does need to profess in your church in order to partake fully in Sunday morning meeting and belong. You're scratching for examples if you use attendance at shopping centres to compare with attending church. As someone said, we can't take you seriously. You don't have to be a member to partake of the activities of our Sun. Morn mtgs. I've b een in mtgs. where people have come and have participated as they were want to. Why they didn't keep coming back, it is anyone's guess because they certainly were greeted after mtg. with friendly introductions all around...that's been my experience. Even the bread & wine was passed through their hands, we were taught that regardless if a stranger or sojourner was in the mtg. with us that they were never to be "passed over" with the bread and wine....it was their "decision" whether to partake of it or not. I've only been in 1 mtg. where a stranger was not offered the bread and wine! And since the elder of the mtg. was not the one to pass the emblems due to a health problem, he corrected that issue with who had done the duty! It has not happened again! Participating has always been the "choice" of anyone....but I've gone to other church's and have been content to keep a low profile....I'm not sure what would have been done, but I do know that being asked to stand up as a "visitor" in that church was very "exclusive" treatment...made me known as an outsider to that church.....
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Post by Sharon on Jan 3, 2009 10:41:31 GMT -5
I agree with your interpretation of msew's thoughts, Todd!
However another thought came to me early this morning...in our Sat. a.m. paper there is always about 2-3 pages dedicated to "religion". On the front of this section today was an article about the rise of fame the inspirational artists this year like no other year. And it went on to say this:
"Even though many claim the world is growing darker spiritually and warmer ecologically, Christian groups held onto their Bibles, road pastors and faith to give a diverse, positive alternative for music-buyers."
So the love of money has struck those who would have otherwise given their life to the music ministry? Sounds like that's what the article was declaring. Holding onto one's faith to become prosperous is about as defeative as one can get. King Solomon realized that...he spoke about the riches he'd gained just because he'd been smart to ask God for "wisdom"...God gave it to him and he saw in his later years just how worthless accumalting riches are concerned...for he said that man can't take them with him and someone who has NOT worked for them will inherit them. The EARTHLY riches can not pass into the next life, so it is almost a most worthless effort to have more then what we need at any given time.
But the article also declares that the spiritual world is dark....that alone says that the eye is not single......so the "vision" needed is not single, being shined upon by the very Christ in whome we believe. We can not have it both ways...believing in the grace of God through the redemption by Christ AND going our own ways...even those ways that are not considered "bad" in this wicked world that we live in. We will lose out if we put our energies into just living the fullest of any day for what ever our human eye and heart tells us, regardless of the earthly "goodness" some proclaim it to be. We must "live for Christ, because He died for us."
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Post by Happy Feet on Jan 3, 2009 14:52:18 GMT -5
Todd wrote: Just the same as one does not have to be a member of any denomination to serve God."
One does not have to be a member to serve God but one does have to be a member in your group in order to be a part of it - otherwise they are seen as not professing or not one of them. There is a requirement to profess in your group's meetings.
I asked my mother and her elder if anyone can come into a Sunday morning meeting and take part and they said no, not unless they have professed in a meeting first.
Very rarely has one been allowed to speak, pray or take emblems in meeting and this has only occurred if the person has been attending Gospel meetings first or if there are no Gospel meetings and the person has expressed a desire to profess. A person who is an outsider and not aware that they are not allowed to take part might do without knowing that they are not supposed to. One does not have to be a member to attend a shopping center but a contract is formed when you want to buy something. You have to pay. You can look free but you cannot buy. When you want to buy you have entered into an agreement with the shop.
The same with meeting. You can attend without professing in the workers meeting, but you are not one of them until you profess in their meeting regardless of whether you professed in another church or not. You must profess in their meeting. Your membership/profession in another group is not accepted for full participation in this group.
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Pink
Senior Member
Posts: 411
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Post by Pink on Jan 3, 2009 14:57:43 GMT -5
Yes believer, your views on the who, what, why and where are correct. And everyone who is anyone in the truth realizes this. It is a strict, exclusive group and participation is conditional. Todd, who wants to take us to his foolishness, is providing only entertainment, especially to those who are like him and can "high-five" his elusive, double-speak, vague responses.
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Post by todd on Jan 3, 2009 23:35:42 GMT -5
Todd wrote: Just the same as one does not have to be a member of any denomination to serve God." One does not have to be a member to serve God but one does have to be a member in your group in order to be a part of it - otherwise they are seen as not professing or not one of them. There is a requirement to profess in your group's meetings. Yes one does have to serve God, to be serving God. Remember that is what we are doing here. Part of serving God is professing... that is one of the things that God has asked that we do, to be completely serving him. You wouldn't turn up to a Chev car meeting in your Toyota. But if you told someone (professed) that you had a Chev, they would say, come along... you are welcome. I know of lots that have not professed in a meeting. A lot of people do profess in a meeting because that is what the love of God does. It makes you want to profess before all those that also appreciate the love of God and even those that don't. Anyway, whether your mother is wrong or right in insisting that they must have professed in a meeting, I'll let you decide, but Sharon, seems to know of cases where this was not the situation, so I really can't see how your mother is right. Very rarely do Toyota owners bring there car to show it at a Chev meeting. They are told to first go and get a Chev and then come back. It's not like they are not welcome but it is much better that at a Chev meeting that you don't have every different car imaginable. So what's the problem? Once the person who is 'outside' realises that these people at the meeting are serving God, if the person wants to stay on the outside of following God, they won't hang around too long. If a Toyota owner turned up to a Chev meeting, but loved Toyota's, he isn't going to hang around long. Me being kicked out of that shopping centre had nothing to do with wanting to buy anything. Even if I just wanted to look, I wouldn't have been allowed. It still doesn't change the fact that I didn't need to be a member of that shopping centre before they could kick me out. It sounds like you don't know what God wants when we should profess. It is not a once off thing that makes us become a member of something, and that we never have to do it for the rest of our lives, no matter where we go or what we do. How are the workers going to know that you profess, unless you actually profess to them that you profess? Telling them is a profession. And how are they going to know that you profess the same things as they profess, unless they first tell you what they profess?
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Post by todd on Jan 3, 2009 23:41:35 GMT -5
And everyone who is anyone in the truth realizes this. It is a strict, exclusive group and participation is conditional. Yes, serving God and following his way is conditional. Is it foolishness to say that we should only follow God's way? Maybe you want me to say that we are doing something other than serving God, just so that you can find fault
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Post by ilylo on Jan 4, 2009 0:06:07 GMT -5
...and that concludes today's lesson on the damage that 2x2ism causes to the mind.
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Post by someguy on Jan 4, 2009 0:12:50 GMT -5
Is it foolishness to say that we should only follow God's way? Maybe you want me to say that we are doing something other than serving God, just so that you can find fault Todd I haven't followed much of this thread but I really wonder at this statement you make. Do you honestly believe that the Father sent His Son to this earth to establish a homeless ministry and meetings in a home as "His way" or do you think that He actually wants people to believe in and worship His one and only Son. The propitiation for our sins. Our redeemer. So much fellowship is lost because people believe that the manner in which we worship is more important than who we worship it just breaks my heart. If ever there is a cause for me to quit coming to meetings it is this idea. That it is actually more important to worship the system and call it Gods way then to worship Jesus as God's Truth and Way.
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Post by kiwi on Jan 4, 2009 0:50:38 GMT -5
...and that concludes today's lesson on the damage that 2x2ism causes to the mind. Why are you such a coward?
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Post by ilylo on Jan 4, 2009 0:52:21 GMT -5
Sorry. I will try to rise to your level of cowardice as soon as possible.
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Post by kiwi on Jan 4, 2009 0:54:22 GMT -5
Is it foolishness to say that we should only follow God's way? Maybe you want me to say that we are doing something other than serving God, just so that you can find fault Todd I haven't followed much of this thread but I really wonder at this statement you make. Do you honestly believe that the Father sent His Son to this earth to establish a homeless ministry and meetings in a home as "His way" or do you think that He actually wants people to believe in and worship His one and only Son. The propitiation for our sins. Our redeemer. So much fellowship is lost because people believe that the manner in which we worship is more important than who we worship it just breaks my heart. If ever there is a cause for me to quit coming to meetings it is this idea. That it is actually more important to worship the system and call it Gods way then to worship Jesus as God's Truth and Way. duh!! can't you see that Todd said/wrote. [Is it foolishness to say that we should only follow God's way? Maybe you want me to say that we are doing something other than serving God? Nothing about a system
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Post by kiwi on Jan 4, 2009 0:55:30 GMT -5
Sorry. I will try to rise to your level of cowardice as soon as possible. What not another question unanswered
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Post by ilylo on Jan 4, 2009 0:58:33 GMT -5
LOL... so I'm guilty of not answering your stupid question. Oh, well. I've been called worse by smarter people than you.
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Post by kiwi on Jan 4, 2009 1:05:49 GMT -5
LOL... so I'm guilty of not answering your stupid question. Oh, well. I've been called worse by smarter people than you. I don't have to wonder why.
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Post by ilylo on Jan 4, 2009 1:07:51 GMT -5
2x2s, all.
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Post by someguy on Jan 4, 2009 1:09:05 GMT -5
Todd I haven't followed much of this thread but I really wonder at this statement you make. Do you honestly believe that the Father sent His Son to this earth to establish a homeless ministry and meetings in a home as "His way" or do you think that He actually wants people to believe in and worship His one and only Son. The propitiation for our sins. Our redeemer. So much fellowship is lost because people believe that the manner in which we worship is more important than who we worship it just breaks my heart. If ever there is a cause for me to quit coming to meetings it is this idea. That it is actually more important to worship the system and call it Gods way then to worship Jesus as God's Truth and Way. duh!! can't you see that Todd said/wrote. [Is it foolishness to say that we should only follow God's way? Maybe you want me to say that we are doing something other than serving God? Nothing about a system Hey Alan...duh when a staunch 2x2er like Todd states that we should follow God's only way he refers to the 2x2 way. Re-read what he said. Surely you can understand that. Can't you? When people who go to meetings, believe that meetings are the only way they make statements like Todd's. Sadly often times they don't realize how silly they look. Surely you understand that...but then maybe you don't seeing you are also a staunch 2x2 follower. You have made that very clear in your posts.
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Post by kiwi on Jan 4, 2009 1:09:10 GMT -5
So true, so true
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Post by ilylo on Jan 4, 2009 1:11:17 GMT -5
So true, so true ...who hate it when the truth is told about their church.
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Post by kiwi on Jan 4, 2009 1:13:55 GMT -5
duh!! can't you see that Todd said/wrote. [Is it foolishness to say that we should only follow God's way? Maybe you want me to say that we are doing something other than serving God? Nothing about a system Hey Alan...duh when a staunch 2x2er like Todd states that we should follow God's only way he refers to the 2x2 way. Re-read what he said. Surely you can understand that. Can't you? When people who go to meetings, believe that meetings are the only way they make statements like Todd's. Sadly often times they don't realize how silly they look. Surely you understand that...but then maybe you don't seeing you are also a staunch 2x2 follower. You have made that very clear in your posts. No it don't, it means exactly what he wrote. Hope you don't feel silly if you ever find out you are wrong. If you don't like what we say/believe you are not asked to partake
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