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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 9, 2008 21:44:38 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 5:23:32 GMT -5
I'm sorry but I didn't get half way through it before I had to switch off.
However, whilst reading it, my mind flashed back to Gartocharn Convention many years ago, when a visiting brother worker spoke about the married couples in the "way," saying that professing husbands were more fortunate than those in the world and that professing wives were more fortunate than those in the world, because they had in their partners, the best in the world.
I can't remember the exact details of what he said (or even who he was, but he was an elder worker), but he clearly had a vision that for married people, having a professing partner was close to utopia on Earth. He also spoke in similar lines to the children in the audience, telling them they were extremely fortunate to have professing parents because they were the best that God could give them.
Although in many cases this worker was probably near the mark, he was obviously talking about those at the top end of the scale, who incidentally occur elsewhere in society and not just in religious circles, but imagine the additional anguish and confusion such words could have on husbands, wives and children suffering because of partners and parents at the lower end of the scale. Of course such things do not happen in the "Perfect Way," an illusion which this man was probably under.
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Post by stargazer on Dec 10, 2008 7:48:40 GMT -5
I too decided not to wade through this. Sad people, sad situation. Am I supposed to extrapolate that the Friends and Workers and "The Truth" caused this? And what "agenda" do I have to be wary of by having this story made available and pointed out? I suppose for the writer, it is therapeutic to get it all (and I mean all) out, and I am sorry for the tragedy. But what is it that I am supposed to get?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 7:52:03 GMT -5
Perhaps it is not the celestial illusion it's portrayed to be ?
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Post by lin on Dec 10, 2008 7:56:11 GMT -5
This type of situation sadly happens everyday. I too didn't see the rational in referring others to the story. Is it some more diversion?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 8:05:21 GMT -5
Do you mean it happens every day in the F&W's sect ? Or, do you mean in society in general ?
Of course I do know what you mean. However, it serves as a warning. It shows that the perfect way is not so perfect after all and it is just possible the teachings and mindset of the way acted as a catalyst for some of the things which happened, due to the unrealistic expectations of striving for perfection placed on individuals, along with other factors.
A psychologist would explain things better. Whilst saddened very much to read such things as this, I'm glad that the victims are willing to have such things shared because there are lessons in this for us all. What you learn from it may be different from me, but we all have a duty to learn from it, if I understand the fullness of the second great commandment.
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Post by lin on Dec 10, 2008 8:18:28 GMT -5
Society in general.These situations are covered up more than we realize. I don't think it was referred to though for society in general because it is about f&w otherwise it wouldn't be brought up here. More so the author of the thread.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 8:24:47 GMT -5
Yes Lin. When these very serious cases come to light we have a moral and Christian duty to empathise, show respect, love and wisdom. Any prejudices or barriers we may have must come crashing down in the face of these things. If we have been kidding ourselves or been mislead previously, it is now the time to shed the skin and grow a little more in our understanding.
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Post by gloryintruth on Dec 10, 2008 9:23:57 GMT -5
A tragic story of familial dysfunction. Some of us have experienced something close to this - and as I get older I have come to realise how seldom there are "good men" out there; upright, compassionate, moral, and gentle - men who will protect their families, not be a devil in the woodwork out of the public eye. I have come to understand better why there are so many women who are very resentful of men: I share some of these feelings. However, in the interests of fairness, this story bears only the most tentative connection to the Fellowship, and seems in places to attempt to make the Church responsible for this horrible childhood. I cannot respect this perspective; but I do deeply sympathise with this individual. It would be a comfort to know that God is just, and will repay such evil in full. Deceptive people worm their way into every communion living inconsistent with God's Holy Will. But we know "his eyes are in every place, beholding the evil and the good"; and as it is written, "then the books were opened and every man stood to account as to everything he had done".
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Post by gloryintruth on Dec 10, 2008 9:29:02 GMT -5
I could not disagree more.
You seem to imply that the teaching of the Church is responsible for arousing this kind of disgusting behaviour - bear in mind that some would say that Christianity - or theism in general - is a "catalyst" for this sort of dysfunction.
I find such a perspective one that I cannot respect, because I do not see it as rational, or fair; any more than to say the horror of the Spanish Inquisition was a result of Roman Catholic teaching.
Older generations seemed to produce these kinds of men; and many older families were plagued with dysfunction. There are the cultural, economic, social, and political dimensions to consider.
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Post by wandering on Dec 10, 2008 9:53:59 GMT -5
A terrible story to be sure, I have a hard time laying the blame at the feet of the f&w, by her own account he followed a "bastardized version" or his own twisted way. But I guess because they once went to meetings it must be the fault of the workers and friends. Am I understanding the implication correctly
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Dec 10, 2008 10:22:32 GMT -5
I don't have the emotional energy to get in to this too much right now. My story isn't quite as bad as this story but from my perspective the "Truth" and many in it did contribute. They contributed by turning a blind eye when they would see abusive situations. Even when the head worker was involved his line was "obey your parents". No concern for the children. And because of the expectations to be happy and content in the perfect way, for the perfect way everyone must be perfect, by your fruits shall we know whether they are God's or not, and these are the rules you must follow the outcome was show one face to those who are judging and hide your real face. This really messes kids up and doesn't allow adults to grow and deal with the issues in their lives. It causes a deep wound full of all kinds of nasties and it is never exposed so it can heal. It just keeps getting deeper and nastier damaging more and more and wider and deeper...For things like this to heal they need to be brought out in the open and exposed to the healing light.
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Post by wandering on Dec 10, 2008 10:29:13 GMT -5
Thanks for your perspective LAG, I hope I didn't offend you. I have personal experience with someone close to me who's parent raised them with a twisted version of the truth. When this person sat in their first bible study away from that influence, tears poured down as they realized " how sweet fellowship could be". It's very sad that twisted people would use any religion to further their own twisted agenda. And yes it happens in the truth just like every other religion. I just think the focus should be on the people causing the harm regardless of what tool they used to accomplish that. Peace to you LAG
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 10:58:00 GMT -5
I emerged from the story with a great admiration for the survivor, her resiliency, her ability to protect her own spirit and soul, her ability to make friends normally, and in the end the story seems devoid of deep hatred.
I agree with other posters that this is hardly an indictment on the church. It was obvious that the father went to great lengths to hide the truth of his actions from the church as he would have known that such behaviour was not acceptable to the church. All too often these abusers present themselves as angels of light to those outside the home, and in particular those who would approve them into heaven.
When I read the story, I got the sense that the story was first written as part of the victim's journey of healing, but was later edited to expand the church in the story and thereby provide some kind of indictment against the church. Only the VOT editors know for sure. The VOT is clearly an anti-2x2 site so this kind of editorial adjustment or encouragement of such would not be unthinkable. Frankly, I think the survivor is being victimized again by her writings being used in anti-2x2 politics.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 11:26:48 GMT -5
Two x two mindset is to a great extent about appearances and conformity.
The following is only one of a number of references used by the author in the portion that I read.
"He repeatedly invoked the Biblical principle that wives must “submit to their husbands.”
I'm assuming this man did not get his ideas from the Catholics. Although a large part of his problem was his own mental instability, he seemed to have favour with the workers.
Professing for many people is all about control. Most are happy to be under the control of the workers, whilst others want to be in control. Absolute control corrupts, This man's assumed position of absolute control caused him to flip anytime there was something which irritated him even in a small way. The last thing he needed was to have control of anybody because he had no self-control. The teachings of the Sect in my view very likely justified him losing control of himself when he perceived he was not controlling the minds and actions of others. Every little irritation caused him to question his authority over his family. A sad, mental case indeed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 11:44:46 GMT -5
hey ram, the misuse of the bible is an indictment of Christianity, not 2x2ism. Those verses are still misused today within most fundamentalist churches. However, no churches encourage anything remotely close to the kind of abuse in that story.
I would go much further than say "a large part" of his problem. The man's a basket case, pure and simple, and there is little if anything in the 2x2 system that would ever encourage his brutish actions. The church does not, and never has, encouraged this kind of abuse.
In my view, the VOT is attempting to bludgeon the 2x2 church with this article as an instrument that is inappropriate. There is no doubt that their hope is that readers will draw a straight line between this man's behaviour and the church, and that's wrong.
There is not much evidence about this man's "favour" in the church. Quite the opposite the way I read it. The writer's explanation is that basically the workers held their noses and put the Wed mtg in his home because they had no better options. They went so far as to clarify that this man was not an "elder", meaning that his behaviour and views did not represent that of the church.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 12:01:51 GMT -5
I take on board what you're saying Clearday. Of course no Biblical teaching or proper church group would promote such behaviour and yes no clear line should be drawn between the church and this man's actions. However, the workers did put a Wednesday night meeting in his home. In my part of the world that is regarded as a privilege and shows one is in favour with the workers. To grant him this privilege, irrespective of the inavailability of other options, it sends this man a message of acceptance with the workers.
If there were no other options and this man had a TV in his livingroom, would the workers still have given him the Wednesday night privilege? Even if they only knew a small part of what he was like, was it right to give him a position of stature rather than ex-communicate him.
The thing is he obviously met the outward appearances of the system, at least inasmuch that they could trust him with Wednesday night meeting, but could also turn a blind eye to the more important matters of family abuse.
When you think what some people are ex-communicated for, or are denied participation in meeting, it really makes you wonder.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 12:16:25 GMT -5
Ram, as I mentioned in another post on this subject, abusers like this typically appear like pure white lambs to those on the outside of the home, especially to the pastors/workers as they know what they have to do to gain acceptance.
Remember, we are reading this story with full knowledge of what went on within that home. The workers would have known nothing or practically nothing. Or, if some bits had leaked out, the man would have sworn his abuse was just little taps of discipline and the wife would have sworn to the "truth" of his version (in her fear). You just can't indict the workers on this because they never knew what we know now.
Could the workers have done more? Perhaps. However, so many of them are so naive that they might not even recognize the abuse even if it was happening down the hall in the same house.
There is no evidence at all that the workers "favoured" this fellow, let alone approved of his behaviour.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 12:22:35 GMT -5
I would need to read the account fully. I was of the opinion the author did disclose some of his behaviour to the workers. I disagree over the workers not favouring this fellow. In my experience a lot of thought goes into where a meeting is held, even Wednesday night ones.
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 10, 2008 12:35:23 GMT -5
Hey clearday, hey ram, the misuse of the bible is an indictment of Christianity, not 2x2ism. Those verses are still misused today within most fundamentalist churches. However, no churches encourage anything remotely close to the kind of abuse in that story.I don't think it is an indictment of Christianity, but rather an indictment of the various churches (denominations) who tend to take verses and use them to their advantage and to further their individual church doctrine. Of course we all do this individually at times also. However I am of the belief that those people (regardless of the denomination) who believe in the true gospel of Christ realize that living under the grace of God means that there is going to be contention between brothers and sisters. Not everyone is going to be convicted the same way, and as Paul points out that is OK. We allow others to live under the same grace of God that we live under. I also saw the story as being more about an abusive individual than an issue with where they went to church. However, when it comes to child abuse there is the legal need to report suspected child abuse to the authorities when it is suspected, and if the workers had reason to suspect abuse they should have reported it to the authorities. (in the story it appears that the meeting was placed there after the kids were gone which may have had a bearing....?) Ram mentioned: However, the workers did put a Wednesday night meeting in his home. In my part of the world that is regarded as a privilege and shows one is in favour with the workers. To grant him this privilege, irrespective of the inavailability of other options, it sends this man a message of acceptance with the workers.In my experience it is not always because of favoritism that meetings (especially Wed night) are placed where they are. Sometimes it is due to a convenience or other reasons. My family attended Wed night bible studies at the home of some REALLY poor folks. I am pretty sure that the reason my family drove the distance we did to this meeting was for the family involved. It gave them a chance to not only participate, but also a chance to help serve others by hosting the meeting. I also think that my dad was instrumental in the decision that we went there, as he was always a man to go way out of his way to the benefit of others he could help in his life. Scott
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 12:35:34 GMT -5
I would need to read the account fully. I was of the opinion the author did disclose some of his behaviour to the workers. I disagree over the workers not favouring this fellow. In my experience a lot of thought goes into where a meeting is held, even Wednesday night ones. Without re reading the story, I think the disclosure of the abuse occurred after the Wed mtg appointment, and after the victim was gone from the home, perhaps many years after? At that point, the abuser could claim exaggeration of the victim, it was all long in the past, a change of heart, who knows, all kinds of smooth lies. The way I read the story, the abuser was very effective in keeping the abuse story from getting out of the family circle. He even worked hard at convincing his victims that his abuse was nothing. Plus, they moved a bit so that makes it even harder for the information to get out.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 13:13:59 GMT -5
My father joined the “Truth” at the age of eighteen. Shortly thereafter, he converted my mother and married her. In the forty years since then, he has drifted in and out of participation in the “Truth”, but has always insisted that his wife and children strictly comply with the rules of the “Truth”. In fact, he used the “Truth”, or his bastardized version of it, as the perfect tool to control the thoughts and behavior of his wife and children. It also became his primary tool for justifying his abuse of his wife and children.
There is much in the author's opening paragraphs in which she links her parents' behaviour, either rightly or wrongly with the religion she was brought up in.
Even when he did not himself comply with the "rules" of the Truth, he expected his wife and children to strictly do so. It appears clear this man's mental state was heavily influenced by what he had listened to, albeit his mind was using the information in an extreme way. And what of the wife ? What of her actions.
There are many people who can testify today, that their sense of reasoning, logic and common sense was lost when they professed and on looking back over their lives have come to realise the unquestioning deference they showed to workers and friends was something quite destructive.
For some they cannot explain how they handed over their brains when they stood up and said "I profess."
For the compliant, the pliable, the eager to please, the weak, the willing and the vulnerable, there are adverse cultic inflences in this way which can result in many different unexplainable behaviour patterns.
Those who do not fit into these categories probably cannot identify with this accusation, but for those who have been a victim of such as I describe, they will need no explanation for the unexplainable.
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Post by ladyvot2 on Dec 10, 2008 14:25:06 GMT -5
Clearday, I take "EXCEPTIONAL" exception at your comments. It's simple, Clearday,.........the lady sent me her account to place on "VOT" with the "CLEAR" intention that it would speak to someone who might be going through a similar situation. We do not have to bludgeon the 2x2 church, they have bludgeoned themselves!!! This lady has EVERY right to speak her truth..........there is nothing inappropriate about that, unless you are a Two-by-Two who would like the voices "SILENCED," of the walking wounded who have endured hideous distortions of normalcy in their lives! I think "YOU" need to examine why this lady's account of abuse bothers you so. You sit endlessly on this board with a daily diet of spinning your packaged support of your "only way to heaven", Clearday!! "VOT" is the voice for people who have been ensnared by this cult.........suffering grave emotional harm. It speaks for those who were deprived of the knowledge of God as Loving and Caring..... the normalcy of life, the joys of life, the bounties of life, and the TRUE Christian experience because of those who taught false claims of being the "only way to heaven." Deny it, spin it, twist it, contradict it, refuse it, disaffirm it, rearrange it, or wish it different............your opinion changes nothing. When you have as many hurting voices emanating from one website as there are on "VOT"............they echo how diseased and corrupt the Two-by-Two way truly is!! STOP spinning your accusations and examine why you have a problem with a lady from California sharing her horrific experience growing up in the Two-by-Two's. Cheryle www.veteransoftruth.com
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ann
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Post by ann on Dec 10, 2008 14:37:44 GMT -5
Cheryle - excellent post!
ann
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 14:56:30 GMT -5
My father joined the “Truth” at the age of eighteen. Shortly thereafter, he converted my mother and married her. In the forty years since then, he has drifted in and out of participation in the “Truth”, but has always insisted that his wife and children strictly comply with the rules of the “Truth”. In fact, he used the “Truth”, or his bastardized version of it, as the perfect tool to control the thoughts and behavior of his wife and children. It also became his primary tool for justifying his abuse of his wife and children.There is much in the author's opening paragraphs in which she links her parents' behaviour, either rightly or wrongly with the religion she was brought up in. Even when he did not himself comply with the "rules" of the Truth, he expected his wife and children to strictly do so. It appears clear this man's mental state was heavily influenced by what he had listened to, albeit his mind was using the information in an extreme way. And what of the wife ? What of her actions. There are many people who can testify today, that their sense of reasoning, logic and common sense was lost when they professed and on looking back over their lives have come to realise the unquestioning deference they showed to workers and friends was something quite destructive. For some they cannot explain how they handed over their brains when they stood up and said "I profess." For the compliant, the pliable, the eager to please, the weak, the willing and the vulnerable, there are adverse cultic inflences in this way which can result in many different unexplainable behaviour patterns. Those who do not fit into these categories probably cannot identify with this accusation, but for those who have been a victim of such as I describe, they will need no explanation for the unexplainable. Actually, I read it differently ram. I read it as the writer being quite kind to "the Truth" by acknowledging that her father "bastardized" "the Truth". If you read through the whole story, you will see that "the Truth" is not woven through its fabric. It only appears at the beginning and at the end. Somewhere in the middle she makes a comment about "Christianity" but it seems to be referring to the broader borders of Christianity rather than the 2x2 sect of it. I get the impression from reading this that the Church component was an afterthought in this writing. It was probably largely written by the author before she encountered the 2x2-related sites and then began to consider the possible 2x2 aspects after that. When she contacted the VOT people, they asked for her story and it was then that the 2x2 parts were added. I admire this lady as I see a real honesty in her writings. The fact that she didn't sell her integrity as she stated that her father bastardized church teachings for his own purposes makes her story completely believable to me. Notwithstanding her integrity, I see the VOT as using her to besmirch the church even though it is not in there. This story is 99% about a sick abuser and an amazing survivor. The 2x2 church complicity in the abuse is just about zero and it's peripheral connection is tenuous at best. What can the 2x2 church learn from this? 1.Not all friends and homes exist as they appear during worker visits. 2. Workers need to be more vigilant about abuse. I think if they had been more perceptive, they may have saved a lot of pain and abuse to the family. 3.Workers would greatly benefit from more information on how to recognize abuse in a family, and what to do about it. 4.Workers need to be very careful about how they teach scripture, especially where scripture can appear open ended to encourage abuse. 5. ? Any other ideas as to what can be learned from this story?
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Post by lizzy on Dec 10, 2008 14:57:03 GMT -5
I agree. This is just awful, but why is it put on this board? Every part of the world, Christian or otherwise, encounters the freak that this man is. I empathize so much with the writer, but I don't see why the "Truth" is blamed for her father's behaviour. Obviously he not only lacks Christ' leading, he is evil. A terrible story to be sure, I have a hard time laying the blame at the feet of the f&w, by her own account he followed a "bastardized version" or his own twisted way. But I guess because they once went to meetings it must be the fault of the workers and friends. Am I understanding the implication correctly
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Post by lizzy on Dec 10, 2008 15:00:43 GMT -5
Very good post clearday! Ram, as I mentioned in another post on this subject, abusers like this typically appear like pure white lambs to those on the outside of the home, especially to the pastors/workers as they know what they have to do to gain acceptance. Remember, we are reading this story with full knowledge of what went on within that home. The workers would have known nothing or practically nothing. Or, if some bits had leaked out, the man would have sworn his abuse was just little taps of discipline and the wife would have sworn to the "truth" of his version (in her fear). You just can't indict the workers on this because they never knew what we know now. Could the workers have done more? Perhaps. However, so many of them are so naive that they might not even recognize the abuse even if it was happening down the hall in the same house. There is no evidence at all that the workers "favoured" this fellow, let alone approved of his behaviour.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2008 15:25:47 GMT -5
Hi Clearday, in light of Cheryle's post I think I should hold back from any comments regarding why the author wrote her account and what involvement the Workers preachings and teachings may have had on her unfortunate circumstances. I can only speculate whilst the author or others may be able to validate ?
I personally don't know anyone on VOT or much at all about their website. I usually don't go beyond TMB except when (as in this case) someone provides a link to a story or piece of information.
Regarding Lessons which can be learned. I'm hoping they have already been learned and are being addressed through mediums such as WINGS, enforcement agencies, social works departments, churches etc.
However, one point that I am trying to make and am failing miserably. I can see an invisible but strong link between the 2x2 church and this unforunate unbringing.
I look at myself and although I did not suffer anything remotely like this woman, I can understand how the preachings and teachings her parents listened to could disable them in many ways. I cannot explain this properly. There is a factor at work which I cannot put my finger on properly, but perhaps a psychologist could.
However, this factor is a controlling and disabling one resulting from the hard sell preachings and teachings such as:
1) This is the only way of God. Unless you profess you are going to Hell
2) The workers are God's only true servants on Earth
3) The workers are revered and are to be pleased
4) You must fit in to the professing system
5) You must be willing for a life of constant submission
6) Your thoughts are not God's thoughts. Many thus think that anything they think is wrong
7) Works is running after the workers, going to every possible meeting and mission, etc
8) This is the perfect way. If things go wrong in your life you are not submitting enough (to this way)
9) There is no real avenue to openly discuss concerns, questions with workers.
10) If you do question things you have a bad spirit, unwilling etc.
These are just a few things off the top of my head, but believe me they can screw up the compliant, the submissive, the eager to please, the willing, the weak and the vulnerable. I can speak personally on that angle. If that is accepted, then it should be easy to see how such preachings and teachings and mindset can really screw up someone whose a bit psycho anyway. Perhaps that's what I'm trying to get at.
This whole thing needs examined by professionals and exposed. The whole professing package needs looked at and much of it binned. How many people go through life with a negative attitude because of their association with the way?
Basically you do not have a feeling of worth. You hardly hear a positive voice in it.
Sorry I've rambled a bit, but somewhere in the foregoing there is a serious mess needing to be addressed.
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