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Post by Mary Lincoln on Oct 22, 2007 23:20:07 GMT -5
Just Look at what happened to Velmasue. Velmasue was ex-communicated from the TMB because of talking too much and her ability to cause such a ruckus on a usually sedate board --: all in the name of RED SHOES and costumes and blond wigs and such. She caused utter divisions within divisions of this board and upset the milieu and status quo to such an extent, the moderators could no longer maintain the appearance of righteousness. But children being molested--: don't we have to draw the line in the sand and call it "D-Day" ? Will I be served notice of this alleged excommunication? You would think I would be the first to know. Of course, Mary Lincoln, could just be blowing smoke! Rumor had it that you were EX-communicated from the TMB. Maybe it was just a rumor. Or have you had your "privileges" reinstated? Whatever the case may be, I feel a pricking of my conscience that I bought into such GOSSIP. Gossip is a double edged sword!! The Sisters Of Temperence have been fighting hard to eliminate all gossip from taking place at our board meetings. We feel that if we can *set the tone* at board meetings, then maybe all SOTS will carry the anti-gossip mandate into their everyday lives and refrain from bad-mouthing other people in such destructive a manner as to cause undo unrest upon a body of fellow humans.
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Post by blmce on Oct 23, 2007 10:10:30 GMT -5
I think in his case he does need to address the issue, he has alot of anger and overall is not a happy person because of the hurt that this abuse has caused and having to keep it inside. He has said that he does not need to be happy, he only needs to make others happy. This past abuse has ruined his self esteem, and because I love him and I know he does deserve to be happy, I just want to help. Do not get me wrong, I am not trying to pry anything out of him, only what he wants to share.
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Post by fram edere on Nov 8, 2007 14:08:20 GMT -5
ten
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2007 9:16:13 GMT -5
I have sent a letter to the senior workers in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta regarding the recent organizational camouflage of sexual child abuse by a worker, (presently an ex-worker living in Saskatoon) and suggested the alternative of openess and honesty to give the parents of exposed children the information needed to keep their children safe -- and to give the perportrator the option of honest rehabilitation.
I chose at this moment not to post the letter here -- but depending on the response these workers show, will consider posting it later.
Edgar Massey
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Post by decarg on Nov 19, 2007 10:38:10 GMT -5
Edgar, I so wish that you would cinsider sending a letter to the DA. To the Special Victims Crime Unit. I hope and pray that the 'workers" will respond, but I sure wish, for the safety of ALL children, that you will let the authorities have this information. Even if the psat victims don't want to come forward, this person is a harm to children. Pedophiles are not rehabilitated IN SOCIETY! And maybe..........just maybe..........they can be with help in setting up boundaries. Boundaries AWAY from children. otherwise it's like sending an alcoholic to the bar for treatment. Please consider doing more than trying to get help through the 2x2 way. Peace.
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Post by ScholarGal on Nov 19, 2007 12:15:21 GMT -5
Edgar, I so wish that you would cinsider sending a letter to the DA. To the Special Victims Crime Unit. Where should he send the letter? To the jurisdiction where the alleged offender currently lives? Or to the jurisdication where the offence happened?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2007 13:21:02 GMT -5
I live on the other side of the planet so am hardly all that suitable to get engaged in in a legal dispute of this nature. However, my 16 years in the work and 45 in the fellowship does put certain responsibility on my shoulders ... especially in my home city. At this point I still believe in the positive posibilities in opinion building -- Sexually endangered children are a pretty hot potatoe even in a group ordinarily so immune to reality, proven fact and honesty as the 2x2 group.
I will wait a few weeks to see what reaction my letter have (if any) before going further in the quest to give parents the information that they have to right to, in the intests of their children.
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Post by decarg on Nov 19, 2007 14:51:28 GMT -5
Thank you Edgar, for all you are trying to do. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful.
I can't imagine the inner struggle that anyone else goes through. So please hang in.
I agree, that stopping the problem has to somehow come from within the 'system" that it is currently taking place. Working from the inside out is most essential. I'm praying, that because legal action was taken in MN, more workers will listen up. They will realize that this is a real problem, and help clean it up. Thanks for all you do! Peace.
ScholarGal......maybe both. It wouldn't hurt. The place where the perp is at CURRENTLY should be the most urgent. To stop the current danger. But in building a case, one would need to check out all places the perp ever lived or worked.
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Post by mrw1964 on Nov 19, 2007 22:14:23 GMT -5
decarg
Would you email me? I would like to talk to you.
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peas
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Post by peas on Dec 5, 2007 0:51:35 GMT -5
Okay, well reading through this topic brings back fond memories of my first kiss.... by a brother worker right on the smacker, then he said, "That's all for now!" I avoided him like the plague and I knew a few other girls my age that hated him too, not surprising. I'm sure I was fortunate to avoid further affection, and doubt others weren't as lucky!
My parents knew something happened, but never asked about it. Several years later, my parents told me there was a group of workers that discussed L's problem. But I doubt there was consequences. He is no longer in the work due to health problems.
Also my first cousin had a rough life, several failed marriages, poor health. One day my aunt told me, "N's problems aren't his fault.... It's what a brother worker did to him, that's who I blame."
I believe the closeness/closedness of the the group does set up a breeding ground of for sexual abuse to occur, especially being it is not acceptable to involve law enforcement.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2007 2:50:21 GMT -5
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Post by Gene on Dec 5, 2007 13:07:13 GMT -5
Edgar, I assume there are no legal documents on file and public regarding the person in Saskatoon. Is there no possibility of the alleged victim's parents filing a police report in the appropriate jurisdiction? It seems like you are asking the workers to treat this situation as if there were a convicted sex offender -- and in the absence of that, I doubt there is any legal obligation for anyone to do anything about warning others. Moral obligation perhaps - but not legal.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2007 2:54:24 GMT -5
Edgar, I assume there are no legal documents on file and public regarding the person in Saskatoon. Is there no possibility of the alleged victim's parents filing a police report in the appropriate jurisdiction? It seems like you are asking the workers to treat this situation as if there were a convicted sex offender -- and in the absence of that, I doubt there is any legal obligation for anyone to do anything about warning others. Moral obligation perhaps - but not legal. As I understand it, no-one involved questions the fact that a crime has been committed. The workers have twisted themselves in knots to minimize and marginalize its seriousness -- on the other hand I understand that some in the family still would like to see it dealt with in court. Gene, legal responsibility for blowing the whistle begins LONG before a legal conviction is determined. In many cases (the school system, health system, sports organizations - and other social organizations such as religious groups etc) it begins with ordinary reasonable suspiscion. In our country this legal responsibility has become very closely monitored of recent years -- and most are keenly aware of it. To me, punishing the guilty is not the issue -- the issue is protecting the innocent exposed and defenceless.
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Post by Gene on Dec 6, 2007 7:00:49 GMT -5
Edgar, I agree -- responsibility starts before conviction. I definitely misspoke. But I suppose there is increasing responsibility to report, the more information one has. E.g., one could say that I have a responsibility to report this simply having heard of it. But surely if one has direct or near-direct knowledge of the offense, one would have a greater legal responsibility to report.
Do you know from whom the police would accept a police report? Only from the victim or, if a minor, from the victim's guardian? I'm just thinking that if there were ANY legal and public document on file, perhaps that could legitimately be used to protect the innocent exposed and defenceless - without relying on the workers to take any action.
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Post by If on Dec 6, 2007 8:09:57 GMT -5
If, as it seems to be suggested on this board, there is /has been wide-spread child molestation in the church then there must be workers, ex-workers and others now 'trembling in their boots' as the net closes in on them. Several years back, when I was a student of Sociology, I had reason to lightly study the topic and was amazed to learn that child molestation transcended the whole stratum (or is it strata?)of society; the rich , the poor, the well educated and the not so well educated, the religious and the non-religious. A fairly large percentage of it is found within closely knit families too. It has always been 'hush hush' and many many victims have suffered in silence, while the perpatrators walked with heads held high. Times have changed and quite rightly so.
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Post by Geoff on Dec 6, 2007 8:35:03 GMT -5
"If, as it seems to be suggested on this board, there is /has been wide-spread child molestation in the church then there must be workers, ex-workers and others now 'trembling in their boots' as the net closes in on them."
It has been suggested that cases that should be exposed are not being, but...
Who has suggested that its "widespread"?
Who has suggested that its any more prevalent than in any other group in society?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2007 8:50:50 GMT -5
Gene you ask some good questions and I don't have the answers. One is "how close do you have to be to the situation to make a credible report that will get investigated?" My personal guess is that the police will be reluctant to investigate something that is several layers of hearsay unless the informant has some very strong connection to the case such as having a child who was told the story by the child victim. I doubt if they would investigate information that, for instance, was reported by you or Edgar, but I could be wrong there, perhaps it depends on how compelling you make the story. The other question is "who do you report to?" Again, just my opinion but I think it would be much more effective to report the alleged victim, not the alleged criminal and that the report should not start with the police, but with the Child Protection Service/Social Services/whatever it is called in the jurisdiction of the alleged victim. They are better trained in investigating and understanding this crime and in a much better position to get the ball rolling with the criminal justice system than an ordinary informant. There will be some members of this forum who would have a good opinion on this........Juliette? Wingsofaneagle? Edgar, I agree -- responsibility starts before conviction. I definitely misspoke. But I suppose there is increasing responsibility to report, the more information one has. E.g., one could say that I have a responsibility to report this simply having heard of it. But surely if one has direct or near-direct knowledge of the offense, one would have a greater legal responsibility to report. Do you know from whom the police would accept a police report? Only from the victim or, if a minor, from the victim's guardian? I'm just thinking that if there were ANY legal and public document on file, perhaps that could legitimately be used to protect the innocent exposed and defenceless - without relying on the workers to take any action.
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Post by If on Dec 6, 2007 8:57:34 GMT -5
"If, as it seems to be suggested on this board, there is /has been wide-spread child molestation in the church then there must be workers, ex-workers and others now 'trembling in their boots' as the net closes in on them." It has been suggested that cases that should be exposed are not being, but... Who has suggested that its "widespread"? Who has suggested that its any more prevalent than in any other group in society? geoff Over the years I have read about cases and "allegations" as wide apart as Australia, USA and Canada to name a few places; thtt appears pretty wide-spread to me. as it is not confined to a geographical area. That is the reason I hyphenated the word widespread. As regards your last paragraph about who suggested that it is more prevalent than any other group in society, I would have to ask you the same question because nowhere did I make that suggestion. If you read mine again you would see that I said that I was amazed that it transcended all strata in society and even defined the groups, eg. religious as well as non-religious etc.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2007 8:59:21 GMT -5
"If", I agree with Geoff that no one is suggesting molestation is "widespread" in the church, at least no more than is experienced in other segments of society. However, what is frightening about molestation is that with even a small number of perpetrators, the evil effects have tentacles. Tentacles because there are often multiple victims, and then untreated victims sometimes adversely affect others around them not only for the rest of their lives, but it then reverberates for more than one generation. That's what makes this kind of crime so insidious and "widespread". If, as it seems to be suggested on this board, there is /has been wide-spread child molestation in the church then there must be workers, ex-workers and others now 'trembling in their boots' as the net closes in on them. Several years back, when I was a student of Sociology, I had reason to lightly study the topic and was amazed to learn that child molestation transcended the whole stratum (or is it strata?)of society; the rich , the poor, the well educated and the not so well educated, the religious and the non-religious. A fairly large percentage of it is found within closely knit families too. It has always been 'hush hush' and many many victims have suffered in silence, while the perpatrators walked with heads held high. Times have changed and quite rightly so.
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Post by degem on Dec 6, 2007 9:53:33 GMT -5
Isn't T.Severud's trial December 14th?
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Post by ls on Dec 6, 2007 10:26:42 GMT -5
To Edgar O.K. Edgar thanks for telling me his name!via PM I might have to stick another William Irvine ad in our local newspaper soon This is how it will read nothing changes: William Irvine founder of the church in the home workers friends 1897 The founders role is no lie..It is a well documented fact Impartial reporter newspaper N. Ireland
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Post by Geoff on Dec 6, 2007 11:10:23 GMT -5
geoff Over the years I have read about cases and "allegations" as wide apart as Australia, USA and Canada to name a few places; thtt appears pretty wide-spread to me. as it is not confined to a geographical area. That is the reason I hyphenated the word widespread. As regards your last paragraph about who suggested that it is more prevalent than any other group in society, I would have to ask you the same question because nowhere did I make that suggestion. If you read mine again you would see that I said that I was amazed that it transcended all strata in society and even defined the groups, eg. religious as well as non-religious etc. OK, so we have establish that it appears no one is suggesting that its any more prevalent in the 2x2s than elsewhere. And that a nameless person from the darkness of anonymity suggests that it is wide-spread.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2007 12:47:39 GMT -5
Clearday, I don't know the best way to report matters in North America, but here in the UK, before the Police can act on information (i.e. proper investigation) they must have a complainant. This is usually an adult victim (16 yrs or over in Scotland/ 18 years or over in England) or in the case of a minor, their parent or guardian. School Teachers, Doctors, nurses, social services, etc can also raise matters, especially if there are domestic issues/family etc involved.
If a victim is willing to co-operate with the police they should be asked to report the matter direct to the police. In this country if the services of Doctors, social services or other specialists are needed, the police contact them. However, there is no hard and fast rule, reports of incidents can and often do occur in reverse order. However, it is always the police who are in charge of the investigation and report the matter to the prosecutors.
If someone is not willing to co-operate, short of good powers of persuasion, it is difficult to progress a matter. The authorities always have one eye on "the matter may have to be proved in court" and if someone is reluctant to testify you generally have a shaky case.
Sometimes victims are too reserved to make that first contact with the police or other services (which once it has been done is very often accompanied by a huge feeling of relief). In these cases a third party may approach the police and explain the circumstances. How things progress from there all depends on the response they get from the complainer.
It could be stressed by a third party to the police (provided they are sure the victim will co-operate) that the reluctance of the victim to come forward may be due to the control the church leaders have over them. By this I mean their personal mindset, not pressure from the leaders.
I agree that no matter how small in number these matters appear they can be quite extensive in nature. Consider the trunk of a single tree. The more mature it gets, the more widespread its roots.
I hope I'm very far wrong when I say this, but the more that workers procrastinate on these issues, the greater the suspicions will grow over who and what are they hiding ? What are they fearing ? My prayers are that it's down to naivity and inexperience, etc, but how long before we conclude we are just making excuses for them ?
Hopefully this will give you some idea of how things work over here.
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Post by 1K9 on Dec 6, 2007 22:10:59 GMT -5
Recently he has confided in me that he was abbused by members of this group (he will not tell me who or their position) (which bothers me, since I want him to start the healing process) Not everyone has to go through the 'healing' process in the same way. Some people can look at the event, evaluate it for what it was, and get on with their lives. You are an ignorant idiot.
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Post by second on Dec 6, 2007 22:13:44 GMT -5
I second that 1K9
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Post by fissure on Dec 7, 2007 1:59:16 GMT -5
Would that be 1K9NHEET?
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Post by Brick on Dec 7, 2007 10:45:37 GMT -5
I can't speak for the Canadians, but here in the good ole US of A, a perp can't be prosecuted for a sex offense unless there is a witness or complainant. If you have a victim who is unwilling to "finger" the perp, law enforcement agencies are wasting their time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2007 2:48:17 GMT -5
"If, as it seems to be suggested on this board, there is /has been wide-spread child molestation in the church then there must be workers, ex-workers and others now 'trembling in their boots' as the net closes in on them." It has been suggested that cases that should be exposed are not being, but... Who has suggested that its "widespread"? Who has suggested that its any more prevalent than in any other group in society? How the numbers of sexual offenders amongst workers compare with the national averages is not all that significant -- especially insignificant (actually more a slap in the face) to those who bare the scars of permanent and painfully mutilated personal dignity. I will contend that most sexual offenders do not have the organizational and doctrinal opportunity to live together with, and be trusted by potential victims that workers do. I will also contend that most sexual offenders have far less capable (and motivated) organizations to cover their tracks. Few sexual offenders when they 'mess up' have an organization that will bend over backwards to hush up their misdemeanors, and move them to a new and unsuspecting environment. I will contend that the work has proven itself completely heartless as to the suffering of young victims. Look at it objectively, the modern construction of 'the work' is the perfect environment for potential sex offenders.
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