Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 11:09:17 GMT -5
quote - "... Those who place themselves in positions of superiority do so because they believe they are superior, not inferior."
Did John, or Peter or Paul think they were superior to their own flock? Would such a thought instantly have rendered them inferior?
quote - "As for the authority of the disciples over Mary, it didn't exist."
We are talking conjectures. But if this Mary remained within the truth then she would have submitted to the authority of those men who were the shepherds of the church. And she wouldn't have been too proud to do this, I am sure. For instance, concerning those Gentiles in the church, Mary would have accepted what came out of the Jerusalem accord (largely driven by James and Paul) as recorded in Acts.
quote - "Authority of one believer over another was expressly taught against and forbidden by Christ by both his words and his actions."
Jesus' actions was to show authority himself.
quote - "Church authority systems developed only after Christ had been dead for some time when people lost full confidence in the Holy Spirit and the words of Christ."
Certainly not amongst those disciples in the First Century. Many here cast doubts upon Paul for instance, but today I read how God gave him the power to heal the sick and raise the dead. That power is not given lightly.
From our 2006 web site... James was the leader of the Palestine mission. Paul was the most prominent gentile preacher... This ministry had the care for the church. The apostles and workers had authority over the church, as was shown when the author of Hebrews exhorted his people to "remember them which have the RULE over you." The ministry was also to serve, as Peter was admonished to do when Jesus said, "feed my sheep."
|
|
ecarg
New Member
Posts: 9
|
Post by ecarg on Oct 14, 2007 11:18:58 GMT -5
This ministry had the care for the church. The apostles and workers had authority over the church, as was shown when the author of Hebrews exhorted his people to "remember them which have the RULE over you." The ministry was also to serve, as Peter was admonished to do when Jesus said, "feed my sheep." WHAT? ?? Do you mean the workers? As in "The Truth" workers? Where were the "workers" and where is the proof of the "workers" and where are the lists and teachings and writings of the "workers" before the late 1800's? Before Irving/Walker started this branch of religion? ? I realize that the current "workers" consider themselves disciples of Christ. All who follow Christ are his disciples. But workers did not exist back then. I'm sorry to go on if that's not what you meant. Just wondering..................
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 11:24:23 GMT -5
I have no idea of where our church got the term "worker" from. Perhaps it came from Paul's reference to himself and other preachers as workers. But "servant" and "brothers" and "preachers" and "apostles" and "disciples" and "messenger" etc are all fine. We are warned about striving over words.
|
|
ecarg
New Member
Posts: 9
|
Post by ecarg on Oct 14, 2007 12:19:04 GMT -5
You misunderstood my question. I realize terms/names can be argued about. Alot of today's Christian terms are not in the bible. I GET IT! I didn't ask WHERE the term "worker" came from. I ask you WHERE are the lists, writtings, history, proof that "the truth" , "meeting", "professing", "conventions" EXISTED before WI and GW? What happened between THE 12 that followed Jesus and the late 1800's? Where were you guys? If THE TRUTH is the only way to heaven................WHY was it kept a secret for close to 2000 years? I would have been screaming it from the roof tops! How could you let almost 2000 years of humanity get condemned to hell? Where WAS meeting from Jesus' time until the early 1800's? We should ALL STRIVE over alot of things. It's called thinking for ourselves. We should ALL question our Religious Authority. It's a good thing! See ya in Heaven. Can't wait to get there!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 12:31:19 GMT -5
We don't know how other people, who sought to live as Jesus lived, went about their faith. In strong Catholic countries, from about the early middle ages onwards, private (and usually home based groups) were crushed. Outside of these countries I don't know. There certainly were people living similarly to pure home based worship, but if they had any connection to us I cannot say. After the Protestant Reformation a large number of churches emerged, including ones similar to our own. The people who worshiped in the manner of the first church generally were retiring, eschewed publicity and understood that outsiders understood and cared little for what they believed (see below.) Please remember, historians ignored the Foundation Church. If it hadn't been for the record God left us, we would know nothing about them, too. ******************************************** from our web site... home.iprimus.com.au/pruephillip/TheFirstChurch.htmWhy weren't they more open? "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. " Matthew 11:12
"... the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 2 Corinthians 4:4Jesus began his ministry as a famous man, but by the time of his last ascent to Jerusalem he was largely unknown. Jerusalem was moved to ask “Who is this?” Jesus wept for the city, saying, ""If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes." (NIV Luke 19:42) Jesus did many things in public. His miracles, such as his healings and the "feeding of the five thousand," helped spread his fame throughout Israel and the Middle East. But often Jesus removed himself from the people, refused to give any sign and asked those he healed to tell no-one. In his resurrection Jesus appeared only to his own people. Jesus' own brothers and sisters urged him to reveal himself, saying, "No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." Even Jesus' own disciples struggled with this: Judas (not Iscariot) asked "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?" (John 7:4 and 14:22 NIV) Bible commentators have long puzzled over what they see as the inconsistency of these stories - Jesus is seen as simultaneously bringing the Gospel, and hiding it. But God's kingdom is manifest at either public or private levels. Elija, for instance, showed king Ahab and his people how the True God consumed the bullock on the altar. His successor, Elisha, conducted himself before the kings of Israel, Judah and Edom. But this cycle of stories also includes the private dealings of God with His people, such as when Elisha restored the Shunammite's son, and asked a widow to close her windows so that the world would not see the miracle of the oil which God gave her. Jesus used words like “hid” and “hidden” to describe how the new covenant was removed from the eyes of those who were not moved by the Gospel, nor prepared for commitment. Jesus was underpinning the concept of Revelation, which is to say the Truth is revealed only to those who respond. In like manner the early church conducted itself with discretion: It sought no publicity outside of preaching the gospel; engaged in no official civic duties; had no name and kept no records outside the books of the New Testament. Historians who documented early church history were only looking at apostates. This is evident in ecumenical council discourses on liturgy, politics, sectarian strife, finances and bureaucracy (ie Council of Nicea.) These issues did not interest the foundation church.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 13:35:46 GMT -5
Again, back to the title of the thread -- What we know is that at this very moment in the city of Saskatoon with literally hundreds and hundreds of friends with families, 'for the sake of the testimony' the workers are actively protecting an ex-worker who admittedly has sexually violated minors. Although this has been pointed out to them -- they still insist on hiding this truth from the hundreds of potential victims - and allow him to ride on the cult doctrine of workers moral superiority. This is an ongoing policy of the group -- and no-one does a pin about it!! Edgar Is there any indication that this case was less serious than his colleague from a neighbor state was guilty of according to this police report a few months ago? www.anotherstep.net/ETC/Or would victims with native blood make it less serious?!!
|
|
|
Post by Observing on Oct 14, 2007 13:47:11 GMT -5
What we know is that at this very moment in the city of Saskatoon with literally hundreds and hundreds of friends with families, 'for the sake of the testimony' the workers are actively protecting an ex-worker who admittedly has sexually violated minors. Isn't this this the person who has been to prison and been released? Do you mean potential victims or people who potentially could become victims? In most cases the legal system sets the rules about people's contact with children. There are laws about what can and nannot be done, brought up. published, etc.
|
|
|
Post by las logged out on Oct 15, 2007 8:37:36 GMT -5
I wouldn't have a clue who this worker is Edgar?
|
|
|
Post by las logged out on Oct 15, 2007 8:39:45 GMT -5
Edgar give me first initial thats all first alphabet letter!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2007 6:30:54 GMT -5
There is no law that is meant to 'protect the testimony' of the 2x2 group from the truth, at the expense of children -- There is abundant law to give parents both the right and the responsiblility to protect their children from danger. This parental responsibility cannot not be transfered to cult leadership. (however 'hearty' the parents may be) -- It is close to criminal and grossly irresponsible, for workers to actively hide warning signs from responsible parents so that these parents can wisely take the steps they feel appropriate to protect their children. (as workers have obviously done in this case!) What we know is that at this very moment in the city of Saskatoon with literally hundreds and hundreds of friends with families, 'for the sake of the testimony' the workers are actively protecting an ex-worker who admittedly has sexually violated minors. Although this has been pointed out to them -- they still insist on hiding this truth from the hundreds of potential victims - and allow him to ride on the cult doctrine of workers moral superiority. This is an ongoing policy of the group -- and no-one does a pin about it!! Edgar Is there any indication that this case was less serious than his colleague from a neighbor state was guilty of according to this police report a few months ago? www.anotherstep.net/ETC/Or would victims with native blood make it less serious?!!
|
|
|
Post by texasdude on Oct 16, 2007 19:24:54 GMT -5
an ex-worker who admittedly has sexually violated minors. Edgar Is there any indication that this case was less serious than his colleague from a neighbor state was guilty of according to this police report a few months ago? www.anotherstep.net/ETC/Or would victims with native blood make it less serious?!! If he has admitted this, why is he not in jail? If you have his confession, it should be turned over to the authorities, yes? Pedophilia and molestation is truly abhorrent and can not, nor should not, be tolerated by ANYONE - we ALL ("2 x 2's" and exes) must be willing to confront both the act and the accused, stand up and say "we're not going to accept this kind of behavior". There is defending such behavior, but if we use words like 'admittedly', then that would indicate a confession is in someone's hands and that confession has been given to the proper authorities. I hope this has happened. Peace to you and yours. TD
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2007 4:52:45 GMT -5
Edgar,
You are making a dill of youself.
How come your eyes were closed for 40 years.
When did you become and absolute expert on these matters.
Get a life.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2007 5:34:10 GMT -5
One of the more modern but IDI0TIC 2x2 defenses of unacceptable sexual behavior is that "if it hasn't been dealt with by a court of law, then it didn't happen."
Leadership has traditionally made sure that sexually wayward workers don't have to face the court system. This is the ugly policy that 2x2 leadership traditionally has used to hide and conceal dangerous behavior patterns by sexually deviating workers. To me it seems that except in cases like the recent Minnesota case where leadership was given no other choice, it is still the ongoing policy of the group.
Most of us are not particularly interested in the 'condemnation and punishment' aspect of the legal system, however the legitimacy of setting up a 'warning for danger 'sign to protect innocent children is regarded as a completely reasonable precaution ANYWHERE ELSE THAN WITHIN 2x2ism.
2x2ism still 2007, is most interested in making sure that no one suspects the danger!!
Edgar
The claim is made that things have changed -- but check out the case in Saskatoon -- where concealment is still the primary issue for a very very clear case of child abuse by a worker.
With all the talk by 2x2 supporters about their abhorance for sexual abuse, and the will to change things .... when it comes to the crunch, NOTHING has changed .. 2x2 leadership defends their right to give ex-worker sexual abusers a hidding place -- and membership accepts this policy.
|
|
ecarg
New Member
Posts: 9
|
Post by ecarg on Oct 17, 2007 7:43:27 GMT -5
TO EDGAR:
Do you write on any other section of the board? Do you have an email address or something, that I can continue this discussion with you. It seems that you are the only one who actually discusses this thread at the moment. The subject has changed many times but you seem to bring it back. I appreciate that. I've spoken about my expiences as a survivor but I don't think this TMB is the place to have real discussions on these matters. Very few are willing to step out of denial and accept these issues.
Casper..............You "post" seemed to come out of know where. When an abuse victim reads such things as what you wrote, it's like you've slapped them in the face. Please be more careful because people from all walks of life read these boards.
Have a great day everyone.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2007 8:33:01 GMT -5
TO EDGAR: Do you write on any other section of the board? Do you have an email address or something, that I can continue this discussion with you. It seems that you are the only one who actually discusses this thread at the moment. The subject has changed many times but you seem to bring it back. I appreciate that. I've spoken about my expiences as a survivor but I don't think this TMB is the place to have real discussions on these matters. Very few are willing to step out of denial and accept these issues. Casper..............You "post" seemed to come out of know where. When an abuse victim reads such things as what you wrote, it's like you've slapped them in the face. Please be more careful because people from all walks of life read these boards. Have a great day everyone. My email is edgar.massey@telia.com --- Yes I have noticed that unspecified 'far away' abuse brings up lively discussion - but that as soon as a specific, identifiable, undealt with sex-offender is brought up for discussion, everyone gets focused on something else!! This kind of moral issue isn't as important as sometimes is let on. Edgar Yes I post on other areas of the board-- You will notice on my profile that in the last 2 or 3 years I have posted well over 2000 times -- on this thread about 10 times.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Oct 17, 2007 13:57:59 GMT -5
TO EDGAR: Do you write on any other section of the board? Do you have an email address or something, that I can continue this discussion with you. It seems that you are the only one who actually discusses this thread at the moment. The subject has changed many times but you seem to bring it back. I appreciate that. I've spoken about my expiences as a survivor but I don't think this TMB is the place to have real discussions on these matters. Very few are willing to step out of denial and accept these issues. Casper..............You "post" seemed to come out of know where. When an abuse victim reads such things as what you wrote, it's like you've slapped them in the face. Please be more careful because people from all walks of life read these boards. Have a great day everyone. My email is edgar.massey@telia.com --- Yes I have noticed that unspecified 'far away' abuse brings up lively discussion - but that as soon as a specific, identifiable, undealt with sex-offender is brought up for discussion, everyone gets focused on something else!! This kind of moral issue isn't as important as sometimes is let on. Edgar Yes I post on other areas of the board-- You will notice on my profile that in the last 2 or 3 years I have posted well over 2000 times -- on this thread about 10 times. Edgar, is there some action that you or others could take to deal with this issue in Saskatoon? I have the sense that if there is substantive evidence of malfeasance, there are some workers who may be interested in taking some action, and may not let the traditional field boundaries hamper their efforts.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2007 15:22:22 GMT -5
My email is edgar.massey@telia.com --- Yes I have noticed that unspecified 'far away' abuse brings up lively discussion - but that as soon as a specific, identifiable, undealt with sex-offender is brought up for discussion, everyone gets focused on something else!! This kind of moral issue isn't as important as sometimes is let on. Edgar Yes I post on other areas of the board-- You will notice on my profile that in the last 2 or 3 years I have posted well over 2000 times -- on this thread about 10 times. Edgar, is there some action that you or others could take to deal with this issue in Saskatoon? I have the sense that if there is substantive evidence of malfeasance, there are some workers who may be interested in taking some action, and may not let the traditional field boundaries hamper their efforts. It is an extremely simple issue -- All that ordinary decency demands in this case is for workers to lift the cult ban on sharing the truth on the issue. Let individual families with children take the steps they feel neccesary to protect their children . This would also give the ex-worker in question the chance to openly face his problems and prove and express his willingness to deal with it. It would be better for everyone --- and I don't believe there would be any bad effects for anyone -- except the work would have to admit they are not any purer than any other similar organization. Edgar
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Oct 17, 2007 23:40:07 GMT -5
But is there concrete action that you can take (or me, or someone) to get this particular issue addressed?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 1:23:39 GMT -5
But is there concrete action that you can take (or me, or someone) to get this particular issue addressed? What I am hoping for is for someone(it may require 'several) to talk/write to the highest ranking workers in Saskatchewan/Manitoba and confront them with the seriousness of the way the dangers have been deliberately obscured from unsuspecting families. The hope is that 2x2 leadership will feel forced to go out with an explanation that will give parents with children the information they need to take whatever steps they feel wisest in the interest of their children. -- and will also enable the person involved to move out in the open to an honest life. (I can also feel sorry for him in the present situation workers have placed him in!)
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Oct 18, 2007 8:44:01 GMT -5
But is there concrete action that you can take (or me, or someone) to get this particular issue addressed? What I am hoping for is for someone(it may require 'several) to talk/write to the highest ranking workers in Saskatchewan/Manitoba and confront them with the seriousness of the way the dangers have been deliberately obscured from unsuspecting families. The hope is that 2x2 leadership will feel forced to go out with an explanation that will give parents with children the information they need to take whatever steps they feel wisest in the interest of their children. -- and will also enable the person involved to move out in the open to an honest life. (I can also feel sorry for him in the present situation workers have placed him in!) To facilitate this: can the names & addresses or edresses of the "highest ranking workers in Sasatchewan/Manitoba be provided? Also, it would be nice if someone provided the brief high points that would be good to include in a letter to these people on this subject.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 9:03:05 GMT -5
What I am hoping for is for someone(it may require 'several) to talk/write to the highest ranking workers in Saskatchewan/Manitoba and confront them with the seriousness of the way the dangers have been deliberately obscured from unsuspecting families. The hope is that 2x2 leadership will feel forced to go out with an explanation that will give parents with children the information they need to take whatever steps they feel wisest in the interest of their children. -- and will also enable the person involved to move out in the open to an honest life. (I can also feel sorry for him in the present situation workers have placed him in!) To facilitate this: can the names & addresses or edresses of the "highest ranking workers in Sasatchewan/Manitoba be provided? Also, it would be nice if someone provided the brief high points that would be good to include in a letter to these people on this subject. Good idea --- I am working on it, and will be back!
|
|
ecarg
New Member
Posts: 9
|
Post by ecarg on Oct 18, 2007 9:58:42 GMT -5
For What It Is Worth:
As someone "harmed" by workers, I can totally see how we need to demand accountability within the "truth" network. I am all for these types of actions. My experience was one that fell on deaf ears because of the cult-like mentality of the web of "meeting" people.
Another angle to consider is basic education. Education about this human illness/sickness/addiction. Start to try and educate people in a non-threatening way about their beliefs. I know that some "truth" people will protect workers over their own families and children. I just wish there were ways to educate outside of theological beliefs. UGH! Very frustrating.
If I can help in any way, please let me know.
HEY GENE: I knew you when you were a younger brother in the work. I even played ping-pong against you ;D Glad you are doing great!
Peace everyone!
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Oct 18, 2007 15:13:57 GMT -5
ecarg, I don't want to divert from the topic of this thread, but am intrigued of course! Is there a way for me to email you? I am at gnelson2@hotmail.com.
|
|
|
Post by Mary Lincoln on Oct 20, 2007 21:11:22 GMT -5
Many people feel threatened when there is danger of upsetting the status quo. If, for some odd reason, a person's status quo is being able to have power over others and use a place of privilege to molest children in the fold-what is to be done? Who will be the one to do it? Heavens, noBODY wants to even talk about it and that's how every good Christian child is raised: DO NOT TALK ABOUT IT. For if you TALK ABOUT IT, it might come true! Just Look at what happened to Velmasue. Velmasue was ex-communicated from the TMB because of talking too much and her ability to cause such a ruckus on a usually sedate board --: all in the name of RED SHOES and costumes and blond wigs and such. She caused utter divisions within divisions of this board and upset the milieu and status quo to such an extent, the moderators could no longer maintain the appearance of righteousness. But children being molested--: don't we have to draw the line in the sand and call it "D-Day" ?
|
|
|
Post by velmasue on Oct 22, 2007 7:51:53 GMT -5
Just Look at what happened to Velmasue. Velmasue was ex-communicated from the TMB because of talking too much and her ability to cause such a ruckus on a usually sedate board --: all in the name of RED SHOES and costumes and blond wigs and such. She caused utter divisions within divisions of this board and upset the milieu and status quo to such an extent, the moderators could no longer maintain the appearance of righteousness. But children being molested--: don't we have to draw the line in the sand and call it "D-Day" ? Will I be served notice of this alleged excommunication? You would think I would be the first to know. Of course, Mary Lincoln, could just be blowing smoke!
|
|
timber
Senior Member
Posts: 249
|
Post by timber on Oct 22, 2007 7:53:33 GMT -5
Nobody can oust Velma Sue without causing a ruckus among her many fans. Who will we go to for fashion advice?
|
|
|
Post by blmce on Oct 22, 2007 21:06:46 GMT -5
I have only attended a few meetings with my professing in laws, I guess I ws looking for their approval. (I did not feel comfortable or aggree with what I heard. My husband was raised very strict in the 2x2's. He never really wanted me to attend, but never stopped me. He himself always showed a resentment for this group, and his parents to a degree. Recently he has confided in me that he was abbused by members of this group (he will not tell me who or their position) (which bothers me, since I want him to start the healing process) My point is that Yes it might be a "life issue" but it is also in this group, and from the little that I know (my hubby has told only me and is affraid to tell to much and to tell anyone else since he was taught not to and that it was all a "hush hush" topic within the group.
My question to all that have been victims (me being one also, not involved with the 2x2's) How do I help him get help and live happy and not feel like he should settle for unhappiness within himself? I have dealt with my past abbuse because I wanted to for myself, but I do not have a clue how to help him deal with his. It is so sad to me that he is going through so much hurt and feels that he has to. Thanks for any help you might have on this issue.
And I do not think I am off topic, this does happen in the 2x2's, as elsewhere but with the 2x2s I feel it is more often kept a secert.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Oct 22, 2007 22:37:54 GMT -5
Recently he has confided in me that he was abbused by members of this group (he will not tell me who or their position) (which bothers me, since I want him to start the healing process) Not everyone has to go through the 'healing' process in the same way. Some people can look at the event, evaluate it for what it was, and get on with their lives.
|
|