Protecting children from abuse

[Admin]

This is an issue of the utmost gravity. It raises anger and disgust in most of us, and thus it is easy to overlook common decency (like not slandering someone we believe in our heart of hearts to be a perpetrator). But the law of our democracies is clear. There are roles for us to play, and roles (such as law enforcement) that are not ours collectively.

Other denominations have been forced to face up to this issue, and so too is the 2x2 home fellowship. Human nature is to sweep such issues under the carpet, remove the perpetrator somewhere else, maybe discredit the abused victim. Much harder to do in this age of internet communication. And the internet raises a whole new set of ethics too, lots of grey area to wade through.

Just now, removing a few offending threads (potentially libellous) and the unsavoury task of editing some other posts to remove names, I’ve realised that along with the 2x2 home fellowship, we are having to traverse new territory in how we go about confronting and exposing such evil.

Here on TMB we will do it, in accord with the laws that pertain. We are learning to play our role along with those in authority in the church as they too behave decently and ethically. If they don’t, we must find ways to encourage – nay, force – them to do so.

And it seems to me, the ultimate purpose is to rapidly move to protect innocent young ones from known perpetrators, and to support victims who, even many tens of years later, are suffering in real and dreadful ways. And for those who have wronged to find encouragement to confess and repent and find restoration in their relationship with God, with their brothers and sisters and in the church itself. All of which requires a ton of vigilance, boldness and love on our part.

[changed subject title]

[gloryintruth]

While the Church is indeed the only true church upon the earth, there are false sons and daughters within her pale whom the Lord will surely uproot and cast into the furnace. But beyond this membrane of legal boundaries and processes stands one inescapable fact to which all Christians are bound by the Word of God to give assent: the true mover of abuse; the true force of evil, is sin. And sin is above all things deceitful.

It is a fair enough proposition that libellous speech be not permitted on the TMB. I have long protested that the saints in the Church are maligned and accused disgracefully and unfairly of all manner of evils, many of which are beyond the capacity of man to prove. The reputations of God's people should be preserved.

Yet I also believe our activity against abuse should never remain in the realm of gossip and information trading on the internet. Our weapons of battle are not those which may be seen; our greatest force against evil are the invisible powers of God which comes through prayer.

[Only one]

Brings to mind the words: "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much".

My thoughts on the matter is there are two parts to this; the prayer part and the availeth part.

Now that the details of this have been discussed here and elsewhere to great extent, there is much to do within the fold. It is not enough, or even appropriate, to sit back and let the government do it. They almost never get anything right, and in their involvement the costs are always extreme.

What should be done?

For the immediate situation, LS is handling this in a righteous manner with the authorities of the land.

For the future -- all "of the way" need to rise up in one accord and rebuild the wall that separates the holy city from the enemy. Things like banning TV, dancing, sports, dating outside the fold, etc., perhaps are stop gap measures. But the real wall must be built within each person, similar to an immunity.

I certainly don't have many answers, but I believe the first line of defense is within the family. I thoroughly believe in "home schooling", but only as an adjunct to the public schooling. It is important that each person be trained to think effectively. Where the public school system is weak, the family needs to fill in the gap.

If this molesting situation is of such importance, why is training left to the government via the public school system. Why are there no overt preventive and protective measures taken to keep this type of problem out?

The problem with the forgive and forget method is that people don't forget. What results is that all (in this case male workers) become suspect to some extent. This cannot be an effective situation.

[ithascome]

If this molesting situation is of such importance, why is training left to the government via the public school system. Why are there no overt preventive and protective measures taken to keep this type of problem out?

Why is this teaching left out of the church.... perhaps this will tell you why the public schools have stepped in. Actually public schools are having to do it all these days.... even educate the parents on how to be a parent.

[shushy]

[The reputations of God's people should be preserved.]

In a perfect world? If you are innocent then guilt doesnt ly at the door. There is nothing to fear.
People put too much emphasis on reputation. IMO...How do you get a good reputation? Through your charactor and behaviour in society. But look at the criminals whose neighbors have claimed they were such quiet polite people who kept to themselves.Wolves in sheeps clothing.

Worrying about your reputation is fear of man.What he thinks of you.

I knew a number of Christian families who homeschooled their children.....it didnt stop their kids becoming rebellious/sexually active or do drugs/alcholol etc. Some went completely wild when they quit school.

[Deleted]

gloryintruth said:

While the Church is indeed the only true church upon the earth, there are false sons and daughters within her pale whom the Lord will surely uproot and cast into the furnace. But beyond this membrane of legal boundaries and processes stands one inescapable fact to which all Christians are bound by the Word of God to give assent: the true mover of abuse; the true force of evil, is sin. And sin is above all things deceitful.

It is a fair enough proposition that libellous speech be not permitted on the TMB. I have long protested that the saints in the Church are maligned and accused disgracefully and unfairly of all manner of evils, many of which are beyond the capacity of man to prove. The reputations of God's people should be preserved.

Yet I also believe our activity against abuse should never remain in the realm of gossip and information trading on the internet. Our weapons of battle are not those which may be seen; our greatest force against evil are the invisible powers of God which comes through prayer.

GIT, I think that is is quite clear that this 'force of evil' that you speak of is quite active within this group that you have quite paradoxly labeled 'the only true church upon the earth". This particular example of this vise is only one amongst hundreds of other instances that are either kept quiet, swept under the rug, or directly denied. It seems most likely that some are still on-going, although the perpetrators have been moved to less a suspicious environment somewhere else.

I find it interesting that in spite of your knowledge of much of these horrendous scandals, you would still make the unfathomable statement that this groups represents the only true church on the earth.

Edgar

[wanttobewithGod]

"This particular example of this vice is only one amongst hundreds ................"

While the above statement is both abominable and true, and NOT BEING EXCUSED (please make special note of that statement and don't jump down my throat about it, ty!) the same is true in most all other religions across the world. Let us not forget THAT. NO, AGAIN, it doesn't excuse it in the f&w church...but does it excuse it in all of the wonderful churches that some have moved on to? Just because it may not have happened in the little church (or big church, whichever) in your little (or big) town, doesn't mean it hasn't happened in your current religion, (if, indeed, you now belong to one) and probably many times over.

Let's not kid ourselves about that, either. M.

[diet coke]

edgarmassey said:

gloryintruth said:

I find it interesting that in spite of your knowledge of much of these horrendous scandals, you would still make the unfathomable statement that this groups represents the only true church on the earth.

Do you, really, Edgar, or are you just taking an opportune jab? If you really wonder about this, you greatly underestimate the human ability to "believe". Imagine how many millions, perhaps billions, read the atrocities in the O.T. and still believe God is good?

We all sweep under the rug what we don't want to hear and manage to keep "believing". And it's quite natural for anyone b&r in the f&w way will believe exactly what GIT does. The only mystery is, where does this incredible capacity to "believe" come from that we all share?

Humans are incredible beings.

[Deleted]

I will agree that sexual abuse is absolutely nothing that the 2x2 group has any kind of monopoly on -- However the whole ugly issue underlines the extreme hypocrisy of 2x2ers in the blatant assumption that they still exclusively represent God on the earth. And then base this self-righteousness on their superior pureness.

It is not the people that I take exception to in this -- but rather the doctrinal construction that refuses to take responsibility for this most horrible product of the secrecy and open camouflage of internal policies of the work ---, and cult demanded unquestionable and unreserved trust in workers. THIS IS UNIQUE and a clear identifier of 2x2ism. Few other groups have created such an ideal environment for such ugly tendencies in an obviously sex-starved/deprived group of people. Why does it surprise anyone?


I agree, humans are incredible things!!

[Deleted]

Edgar,

Surely you must realise that your exagerations of numbers and statments you made in the last 2 sentences of your last post, clearly devalue all your posts and make many here convinced that it is impossible for you to contribute anything sane and meaningful.

Again, tone it down. Please.

[wanttobewithGod]

Edgar,

Two points. and they both kinda made me giggle, actually.

One..you used to belong to this religion that you speak about with such abhorrence. That's all. That just gave me a lil laugh in and of itself. I wonder what you would have thought of people like YOU now....back then? (or would you have kind of laughed and totally brushed it off...)

sex-starved, deprived group of people?? This made me laugh the loudest. People have made mistakes, horrible mistakes (see my post above) and should be punished for them..and God will judge them as well...but...BUT

sex-starved deprived ppl?

TRUSSSSST me. NO. NOOOOo. lolllllllllll M.
PS...well, ok, I can't speak for the masses...but eh..not the ones I know of! (and yeah, "friends" "talk" just like any other girlfriends do! I know I used to and I know that part hasn't changed any. Don't you get to worryin about any of the friends' sex lives now....they're doin' just fine. M.

[insomniac]

wanttobewithgod said:

sex-starved deprived ppl?

TRUSSSSST me. NO. NOOOOo. lolllllllllll M.
PS...well, ok, I can't speak for the masses...but eh..not the ones I know of! (and yeah, "friends" "talk" just like any other girlfriends do! I know I used to and I know that part hasn't changed any. Don't you get to worryin about any of the friends' sex lives now....they're doin' just fine. M.

Mich don't you ever sleep?? Now i'm not going to draw any connections between you sittin there wide awake in front of your computer at this unearthly hour and what you've just said. But I am having a laugh ;D Blessing!!

[wanttobewithGod]

Night.

and backatcha.

[LookingForTruth]

I don't understand the exagerations you suggest he has made --- care to specify!!

casper said:

Edgar,

Surely you must realise that your exagerations of numbers and statments you made in the last 2 sentences of your last post, clearly devalue all your posts and make many here convinced that it is impossible for you to contribute anything sane and meaningful.

Again, tone it down. Please.

[Deleted]

casper said:

Edgar,

Surely you must realise that your exagerations of numbers and statments you made in the last 2 sentences of your last post, clearly devalue all your posts and make many here convinced that it is impossible for you to contribute anything sane and meaningful.

Again, tone it down. Please.

Here is the post again, what is that is exageration?

I will agree that sexual abuse is absolutely nothing that the 2x2 group has any kind of monopoly on -- However the whole ugly issue underlines the extreme hypocrisy of 2x2ers in the blatant assumption that they still exclusively represent God on the earth. And then base this self-righteousness on their superior pureness.

It is not the people that I take exception to in this -- but rather the doctrinal construction that refuses to take responsibility for this most horrible product of the secrecy and open camouflage of internal policies of the work ---, and cult demanded unquestionable and unreserved trust in workers. THIS IS UNIQUE and a clear identifier of 2x2ism. Few other groups have created such an ideal environment for such ugly tendencies in an obviously sex-starved/deprived group of people. Why does it surprise anyone?


I agree, humans are incredible things!!

[las logged out]

edgarmassey said:

I will agree that sexual abuse is absolutely nothing that the 2x2 group has any kind of monopoly on -- However the whole ugly issue underlines the extreme hypocrisy of 2x2ers in the blatant assumption that they still exclusively represent God on the earth. And then base this self-righteousness on their superior pureness.

It is not the people that I take exception to in this -- but rather the doctrinal construction that refuses to take responsibility for this most horrible product of the secrecy and open camouflage of internal policies of the work ---, and cult demanded unquestionable and unreserved trust in workers. THIS IS UNIQUE and a clear identifier of 2x2ism. Few other groups have created such an ideal environment for such ugly tendencies in an obviously sex-starved/deprived group of people. Why does it surprise anyone?


I agree, humans are incredible things!!

Agreed

[Deleted]

There are none so blind as those who will not see, Edgar.

"obviously sex-starved/deprived group of people"

and, dont tell me for one minuite that the Catholic faith doesnt, or at least didnt, have a clear understanding that the priest was a person who the flock must have "unquestionable and unreserved trust " in. The church demanded that the priests was a person who's word was law. So much for the uniqueness of the 2x2"s. I am sure if you thought a little before you posted, you could think of many, many, religous groups who have leaders who "rule with an iron hand."

Dissapointment has blinded you Edgar.

[Deleted]

I will agree that the Catholic church has had similar problems to the 2x2 issues with child molesting. Much of them were also cause by a similar environmental situation .. as you mentioned. The thing that leaves the 2x2s in a fairly unique position is that the Catholic church has finally assumed responsibility for many of the problems they have been responsible for -- 2x2s haven't even acknowledged that it is a problem yet.

[Deleted]

Edgar,

While you were a worker, did you see the problem.

If you did, what did you do about it?

and Edgar, if you are going to edit your posts, please show the edit.

[las logged out]

I know for myself I saw threw most stuff after leaving the group
Most stuff i never knew when professing..I did however believe William Irvine was founder even thou my elder refuited it..I just didn't have all the info on him..that was about 3 yrs of professing towards last

[Deleted]

Amidst Edgar's exaggerations and embellishments ("hundreds of vices"? c'mon now that many don't exist), he does make some good points.

One item that is particularly pertinent to this issue, but other issues also, is the inability of our church to acknowledge problems as Edgar points out. That's why many problems don't get addressed. Yes, we are decades behind (as usual) on the child molestation issue mainly because of our stubborness to consider that we are wrong on something.

diet coke is probably on the right trail on this, the ability of people to believe, and therefore allow their unsound beliefs to blind them from what is true and right. Our church is filled with people who believe that workers can do no wrong, so are completely unable to see their feet of clay, and will deny it vigorously.

Many f&ws get frustrated because of all the negativity out there against them. Yet if we would just begin to look for the positive in the negative, things would be much better and we would start to see a little real joy within the church. Instead, we just shut out the criticisms, damn them as bitter and angry people, and go on our merry way crushing the spirits of our fellow meeting people.

We need a new culture in the f&w church. One that constantly asks, "what are we doing wrong, and how can we make things right?" instead of focusing on "we are the only right people on earth".

[CherieKropp]

RE: We need a new culture in the f&w church. One that constantly asks, "what are we doing wrong, and how can we make things right?" instead of focusing on "we are the only right people on earth".

***and instead of focusing on "the way is perfect", when it isn't.

In looking back, I remember instances where laws were enacted and sometimes others had to force the workers to comply with them. Recall when Sweetland and Rittenhouse urged the workers to register, per the Gov. requirements in WW2 as all small groups meeting in homes were supposed to, and they drug their feet. Same thing has happened sometimes with health laws on conv--Ex: Altamont NY. More recently, it was Lyle S who was "strongly encouraged" to comply with the laws of the land.

...when laws change, the workers don't seem to get in a hurry.

Just my 2 cents

[mirror]

I agree with Edgar's point of view. The only verse that comes into mind is the one about the Pharisees who pretended to be the guides of the blind but were more blind themselves.

On another point now:

wanttobewithgod said:

While the above statement is both abominable and true, and NOT BEING EXCUSED (please make special note of that statement and don't jump down my throat about it, ty!) the same is true in most all other religions across the world. Let us not forget THAT. ...

On cigarette packs and advertisements we read: «THE SURGEON GENERAL SAYS THAT SMOKING IS VERY BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH. IT CAN CAUSE CANCER, HEART DISEASE, IMPOTENTCE, ...»

On alcohol advertisements we read «OUR BEER/WINE/WHISKY ... ARE TO BE CONSUMED WISELY»

On several medications we read «KEEP AWAY FROM CHILDREN. THIS MEDICATION IF TAKEN WITHOUT THE SUPERVISION OF A DOCTOR MAY HARM YOUR HEALTH»

On several household items we read «POISON! CAN CAUSE DEATH IF INHALED/SWALLOWED ...»

I hope someday we will read outside every church (and private religious meeting) that «RELIGION IS HARMFUL FOR YOUR MENTAL HEALTH. IT MAY LEAD TO SEXUAL AND MORAL ABUSE/BULLYING/PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEMS/SUICIDE AND GRAVE ILLUSIONS»

[Deleted]

The resistance to change is remarkable. I think we have sense of self-righteousness buried deep within our psyches that makes change extremely difficult. After all, if we are perfect, why would we change just because some heathens enacted a law?

Instead of being at the forefront of making things right, it seems we have to be cajoled and forced into it.

cheriekropp said:

RE: We need a new culture in the f&w church. One that constantly asks, "what are we doing wrong, and how can we make things right?" instead of focusing on "we are the only right people on earth".

***and instead of focusing on "the way is perfect", when it isn't.

In looking back, I remember instances where laws were enacted and sometimes others had to force the workers to comply with them. Recall when Sweetland and Rittenhouse urged the workers to register, per the Gov. requirements in WW2 as all small groups meeting in homes were supposed to, and they drug their feet. Same thing has happened sometimes with health laws on conv--Ex: Altamont NY. More recently, it was Lyle S who was "strongly encouraged" to comply with the laws of the land.

...when laws change, the workers don't seem to get in a hurry.

Just my 2 cents

[jwbdurston]

These are the fifteen foundational truths of the Friends, Workers & Meetings that constitute a cult.

Point 10: Sexual perversion, low performance, immorality and associated iniquities of the heart are common place and in extreme levels within the Friends and Workers.

[huh]

Jwdburston - thank you so much for opening my eyes - all things I had never known about my belief- especially number 6 - it gives me no opportunity to respond because I'm immediately branded. Congratulations on stopping all conversation or discourse - of course that was probably your point, eh?

[Admin]

jwbdurston said:

I think you are still blind..and I will tell you why huh guest.........but on the other thread (are the friends, workers and meetings a cult).........incidently Bert is still barred from my thread and is not allowed to post on it.......I assume you are not Bert!

I am not aware that anybody is banned from anywhere.

Also, there are a number of posts appearing on this thread that are not specifically relevant to the topic.

The topic of this thread is specific and of the utmost gravity. It is why it is stickied at the top. This is not a thread for general or even vaguely-related issues. Only directly relevant posts should go here.

Please move the posts above that are not directly relevant to another appropriate thread. Thanks.

[shushy]

Tonight on a doco here...they said that 'child sexual abuse is an epidemic that is only just being acknowledged. Usually priests, boy scouts leaders and family who are the pedophiles'.