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Post by pompous on Dec 8, 2007 15:40:47 GMT -5
someone of you come across as pompous experts on what needs to be done for example edgar
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Post by said the on Dec 8, 2007 16:49:12 GMT -5
someone of you come across as pompous experts on what needs to be done for example edgar ...said the person who approves of child molestation.
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Post by it is sin on Dec 8, 2007 17:29:54 GMT -5
someone of you come across as pompous experts on what needs to be done for example edgar ...said the person who approves of child molestation. why do you approve of it? Its sinful to God
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2007 15:24:58 GMT -5
Even most 2x2ers honestly abhor the thought of child molesting -- However they abhor critisizm of their religious organization even more -- So if the two are placed side by side -- they will diregard child molesting within their group in an effort to preserve their indoctrinated presumtion (illusion) that they are morally superior to all others in the world.
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Post by Guest on Dec 9, 2007 20:27:08 GMT -5
Even most 2x2ers honestly abhor the thought of child molesting -- However they abhor critisizm of their religious organization even more -- So if the two are placed side by side -- they will diregard child molesting within their group in an effort to preserve their indoctrinated presumtion that they are moral superior to all others in the world. After reading a bit through this thread, and then coming on this entry, I again realize how it is not 2x2's and their doctrine, but it is Christian doctrine that is the problem. Christians teach that their sins are washed away by the blood of the lamb, and that is why they are morally superior to everyone else. It is how righteous they are in God's eyes that counts, not in the eyes of other human beings. What is more, if they confess their sins they are a clean sheet. Other Christians should treat them as perfect and clean then too. There is no further price to pay. Christian doctrine says that God doesn't remember their sins anymore. So, why should they? If someone abuses again, it is a new offense which can be dealt with the same way, and could be forgiven at least 490 times. What is more, once forgiven, a past offense no longer are a problem for them. If others have a problem, they need to get in touch with God and the peace he offers free. This whole discussion is an example of just how rediculous, ripe for abuse, and dangerous Christian teaching is. Us humans are much more realistic.
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Post by guest3 on Dec 10, 2007 13:10:47 GMT -5
edgar do you have an email available? there was no "contact" on your webpage. being a new "ex", I would love to ask a few questions regarding your current practice of faith. thanks
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2007 13:42:30 GMT -5
edgar do you have an email available? there was no "contact" on your webpage. being a new "ex", I would love to ask a few questions regarding your current practice of faith. thanks edgar.massey@telia.com Thanks for the suggestion -- I have placed an email link on the page with our story. Edgar
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Post by guest3 on Dec 10, 2007 13:54:30 GMT -5
thanks so much. will be contacting you yet today.
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Post by You on Dec 12, 2007 18:53:53 GMT -5
Even most 2x2ers honestly abhor the thought of child molesting -- However they abhor critisizm of their religious organization even more -- So if the two are placed side by side -- they will diregard child molesting within their group in an effort to preserve their indoctrinated presumtion that they are moral superior to all others in the world. After reading a bit through this thread, and then coming on this entry, I again realize how it is not 2x2's and their doctrine, but it is Christian doctrine that is the problem. Christians teach that their sins are washed away by the blood of the lamb, and that is why they are morally superior to everyone else. It is how righteous they are in God's eyes that counts, not in the eyes of other human beings. What is more, if they confess their sins they are a clean sheet. Other Christians should treat them as perfect and clean then too. There is no further price to pay. Christian doctrine says that God doesn't remember their sins anymore. So, why should they? If someone abuses again, it is a new offense which can be dealt with the same way, and could be forgiven at least 490 times. What is more, once forgiven, a past offense no longer are a problem for them. If others have a problem, they need to get in touch with God and the peace he offers free. This whole discussion is an example of just how rediculous, ripe for abuse, and dangerous Christian teaching is. Us humans are much more realistic. You don't understand Christian doctrine.
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Post by happydaze on Dec 14, 2007 16:05:29 GMT -5
Edgar Massey stated that the 'construction of the work' is the perfect environment for potential sex offenders.
However, The perfect place for abuse to occur (sexual, physical, mental, etc) is where there is an 'IMBALANCE OF POWER."
for example: between teacher and student / husband and wife / lawyer and client / doctor and patient
Most sexual abuse in the United States occurs between teacher and student and it doesn't seem to be getting better; in fact, it appears to be increasing exponentially.
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Post by WildDaze on Dec 14, 2007 17:39:12 GMT -5
Most sexual abuse in the United States occurs between teacher and student and it doesn't seem to be getting better; in fact, it appears to be increasing exponentially. You are just wrong. Increasing exponentially? Do you you have any support for such a claim? The best estimate is that 15% of students will be sexually abused by a member of the school staff during their school career. How does this translate into "most". Regaining composure!
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Post by please be kidding on Dec 15, 2007 11:47:56 GMT -5
The best estimate is that 15% of students will be sexually abused by a member of the school staff during their school career. Are you kidding me? That seems awfully high. I sure hope you aren't serious. Is this global or just one country? If you are for real, can you point to your source? Thanks. (Biting my lip because 15% for that statistic is what I would call an epidemic.)
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 15, 2007 14:56:16 GMT -5
Thought I would add this to this thread also
Tim Severud sentence Dec 14th « Thread Started on Today at 13:25 »
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Post by eyedeetentee on Dec 15, 2007 15:16:51 GMT -5
Hmm, hard time in a state pen. Good luck to him.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Dec 15, 2007 16:20:02 GMT -5
[Christians teach that their sins are washed away by the blood of the lamb, and that is why they are morally superior to everyone else.]
This is a mean statement. Most christians I know really do not have a superior attitude at all quite the opposite. Most try very hard to obey scripture. Not all are rebellious to the teachings of the bible. They do not think they are perfect either.
[It is how righteous they are in God's eyes that counts, not in the eyes of other human beings.]
The first part is true on the basis that God makes people righteuos not us. It is only through obeying scripture that people are made rightoues through Christ.
[What is more, if they confess their sins they are a clean sheet. Other Christians should treat them as perfect and clean then too. There is no further price to pay.]
The washing away of personal sin is through the blood of Christ and acknowledgement of who he is and what he did. Other chrisitans should respect other human beings period and not elevate one another because we are not perfect. We understand it is through our own death that the work Christ does in our lives while we live that is improved. Aurely to confess/acknowledge sin is a good thing even in laymens terms bz it improves the behaviour of the person. They actually want to change. Why would anyone gripe about this? As for a further rpice to pay? Its wrong there is esp with child molestation. Just because you repent doesnt let you off. "If anyone should hurt any of my little ones better a milstone is hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea"....
[ Christian doctrine says that God doesn't remember their sins anymore. So, why should they?]
He doesnt bz it is cast into the sea of rememeberence..Generally a person wont forget their past sin.
[If someone abuses again, it is a new offense which can be dealt with the same way, and could be forgiven at least 490 times. What is more, once forgiven, a past offense no longer are a problem for them. If others have a problem, they need to get in touch with God and the peace he offers free.]
You cant keep on commiting that sin and think it is ok with God. It isnt.
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Post by guest on Dec 15, 2007 21:10:10 GMT -5
[Christians teach that their sins are washed away by the blood of the lamb, and that is why they are morally superior to everyone else.] shushy responds This is a mean statement. Most christians I know really do not have a superior attitude at all quite the opposite. Most try very hard to obey scripture. Not all are rebellious to the teachings of the bible. They do not think they are perfect either.
Why on earth do you think it is mean? Unfortunately, Christians try very hard to obey scripture. Unfortunately there is the problem and conflict of each individuals interpretation of what scripture says. If Christians don't think they are perfect, they need to repent and accept God's cleansing, so they can be perfect again. Otherwise it is not possible for them to enter heaven.
[It is how righteous they are in God's eyes that counts, not in the eyes of other human beings.]
shushy responds The first part is true on the basis that God makes people righteuos not us. It is only through obeying scripture that people are made rightoues through Christ.
Beside the problems of obeying scripture as noted above, you are trying to rewrite Christian doctrine.
[What is more, if they confess their sins they are a clean sheet. Other Christians should treat them as perfect and clean then too. There is no further price to pay.]
shushy responds The washing away of personal sin is through the blood of Christ and acknowledgement of who he is and what he did. Other chrisitans should respect other human beings period and not elevate one another because we are not perfect. We understand it is through our own death that the work Christ does in our lives while we live that is improved. Aurely to confess/acknowledge sin is a good thing even in laymens terms bz it improves the behaviour of the person. They actually want to change. Why would anyone gripe about this? As for a further rpice to pay? Its wrong there is esp with child molestation. Just because you repent doesnt let you off. "If anyone should hurt any of my little ones better a milstone is hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea"....
I agree, Christian logic and human logic are incompatible. It must be particularly galling to ex's that a public confession has been made, he has likely partaken of the cup, and they now look like Jonah after the city repented. The parable of the steward who was forgiven much and then demanded payment from his debtors might be one for ex's to reread. The consecquences they bring on their heads is spelled out.
[ Christian doctrine says that God doesn't remember their sins anymore. So, why shouldxx they?]
He doesnt bz it is cast into the sea of rememeberence..Generally a person wont forget their past sin.
Yes, God's forgetfullness is rather unbelievable. Christians need to be more like Him. They should repent so much as they are not.
[If someone abuses again, it is a new offense which can be dealt with the same way, and could be forgiven at least 490 times. What is more, once forgiven, a past offense no longer are a problem for them. If others have a problem, they need to get in touch with God and the peace he offers free.]
You cant keep on commiting that sin and think it is ok with God. It isnt.
You miss a point that when explaining the grace of God you otherwise embrace and expand on. But to make the point again, no it isn't, which is why you must confess again, and then again you are white as snow, no matter what any of you may say.
I'm surprised that other Christians have not objected as you try to roll back the power and truth of the blood of Christ that makes one free of mans accusation and vengence. You make mans sensabilities the more reasonable ones.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Dec 16, 2007 6:34:41 GMT -5
Sorry guest I reread your originalpost and it read to me like you were suggesting christians think 'they' are morally superior. That was what looked mean to me. A judgement against christians.
I see what your saying now.
There are scriptures that speak of not doing things we know we shouldnt do but we do them. The grace and mercy of God and the power of the blood of Jesus is an incredible thing for anyone to comprehend. Man accuses and is vengeful regardless of our beliefs. Who in the grand scheme of things understands everything about God? his thoughts are not our thoughts nor his ways our ways. I see him as loving more than I see him as wrathful and vengeful. A lot of people have a problem with this. Yet it says vengence belongs to the Lord. We are supposed to be rightly deviding the word of truth and you can only do that the more scripture you understand and the more you get to know Him. As for me taking away from the power and truth of the blood of christ, thats terrible. I would never intentionally do that.
[You cant keep on commiting that sin and think it is ok with God. It isnt] When I wrote this my mind thought of the scripture that says,,,
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Post by amrak on Dec 16, 2007 17:23:15 GMT -5
Maybe Jesus didn't die for our sins. Perhaps His mission on earth was misconstrued. Maybe we live in a universe in which karma holds sway. Fundamentalism may not be the answer. Perhaps what we think, do, or say, goes with us to the grave...and comes back to either reward us or to haunt us, & to challenge us based on our past life...and our next incarnation into the earth school will set up new lessons that must be satisfactorilly learned and experienced before we can be free from the wheel of karma.
Fundamentalism preaches that at one time the blood of animals fended off the wrath of God. Now it preaches that the blood of Jesus fends off the wrath of God. Perhaps it isn't and never was anything more than scapegoating and not facing our wrong deeds. Think about the implications.
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Post by WildDaze on Dec 16, 2007 19:19:39 GMT -5
The best estimate is that 15% of students will be sexually abused by a member of the school staff during their school career. Are you kidding me? That seems awfully high. I sure hope you aren't serious. Is this global or just one country? If you are for real, can you point to your source? Thanks. (Biting my lip because 15% for that statistic is what I would call an epidemic.) 15% was the highest one I have seen. And I cannot recall the source. I was just reacting to the statement that "most" sexual abuse was in schools and was increasing exponentially. Here is some information: In Educator Sexual Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature (U.S. Department of Education, Office of the Under Secretary, Washington, DC, 2004), Shakeshaft projected the numbers in her surveys to the whole public school system. She concluded that 9.6% of public school children, accounting for 4.5 million students, experienced sexual misconduct by educators. Educators included teachers and other school officials, such as principals, coaches, counselors, substitute teachers, teacher's aides, security guards, bus drivers, and other employees.www.libraryindex.com/pages/1411/Child-Sexual-Abuse-PERPETRATORS.html
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Post by Pathetic on Dec 20, 2007 3:47:03 GMT -5
Are you kidding me? That seems awfully high. I sure hope you aren't serious. Is this global or just one country? If you are for real, can you point to your source? Thanks. (Biting my lip because 15% for that statistic is what I would call an epidemic.) 15% was the highest one I have seen. And I cannot recall the source. I was just reacting to the statement that "most" sexual abuse was in schools and was increasing exponentially. Here is some information: In Educator Sexual Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature (U.S. Department of Education, Office of the Under Secretary, Washington, DC, 2004), Shakeshaft projected the numbers in her surveys to the whole public school system. She concluded that 9.6% of public school children, accounting for 4.5 million students, experienced sexual misconduct by educators. Educators included teachers and other school officials, such as principals, coaches, counselors, substitute teachers, teacher's aides, security guards, bus drivers, and other employees.www.libraryindex.com/pages/1411/Child-Sexual-Abuse-PERPETRATORS.htmlOne more BIG argument for home schooling, I'd say. Who in their right mind would send their kid to a place where there's a one in ten chance of being sexually mistreated by an adult?? Pathetic!
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Post by WildDaze on Dec 20, 2007 8:46:54 GMT -5
One more BIG argument for home schooling, I'd say. Who in their right mind would send their kid to a place where there's a one in ten chance of being sexually mistreated by an adult?? Pathetic! Ahh yes. And, using your impeccable logic and reasoning, who in their right mind would keep a child at home where the chances of them being abused, sexually (48.6% of all sexual abuse is by family members), physically, emotionally, etc., are many time higher than in educational facilities? The solution is to provide the needed education to the children so they will know what is and what is not acceptable. Parents need to teach them what is and is not acceptable and the school system needs to teach them what is and is not acceptable behavior from family and friends. Many cases of abuse in the home are spotted by school and medical professionals who deal with children outside of the home. I am not saying that home schooling is good or bad. I am only commenting on your statement that children should be home schooled to prevent sexual abuse.
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Post by outsider on Dec 20, 2007 10:37:23 GMT -5
I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I'm not going to read through this entire thread....I'm wondering if anyone knows if the workers as a group are made aware of the child abuse cases of the other workers ?? I think they would need to be informed for various reasons.
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Post by nope on Dec 20, 2007 10:56:21 GMT -5
I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I'm not going to read through this entire thread....I'm wondering if anyone knows if the workers as a group are made aware of the child abuse cases of the other workers ?? I think they would need to be informed for various reasons. the answer is no they are not informed of this i know two ex workers who have left in the last 5 years and both of them (one man, one woman) didn't learn of it until after they left the work
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ann
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Post by ann on Dec 20, 2007 14:23:57 GMT -5
No information is given to anyone. Remember the group is about secrecy, telling less than the truth, giving workers power over lives when the workers barely can manage their own life.
If info is shared it's only among the elite and then it's to find the best way to cover it up and make the victim guilty.
What would Jesus say to these workers/pharisees?
Please everyone, go to God, accept Jesus into your heart with real desire. The peace, love and understanding that will be yours is beyond all measure. The freedom of living with Jesus in your heart and life is priceless.
Blessings to all ann
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Post by out West on Dec 20, 2007 21:40:48 GMT -5
A sister worker in western USA last year was questioning families with children, quite intensively, regarding any possibility of molestation. Her explanation was that she needed to let the overseer know if there had been any occurances (there hadn't been in the family who told me of this). So one at least is requesting investigations!
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Post by guesty on Dec 24, 2007 0:20:49 GMT -5
I was personally involved in a sexual abuse issue involving someone who had meeting in their home. I was encouraged and supported by the workers to report the abuse and press as many charges as I could. Not only for my own well being but in order to prevent further occurences of abuse. In my case the people saying the fellowship wants this stuff hushed up are very wrong.
I was supported, encouraged and validated by the workers to whom I am very grateful. They have been supportive to me in this for many years now.
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julio
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Post by julio on Dec 24, 2007 1:02:12 GMT -5
I'm sorry you were involved in that issue, but am very glad to hear it was addressed in such a way as to protect other potential victims!
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Jackie
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Post by Jackie on Dec 24, 2007 1:04:17 GMT -5
I was personally involved in a sexual abuse issue involving someone who had meeting in their home. I was encouraged and supported by the workers to report the abuse and press as many charges as I could. Not only for my own well being but in order to prevent further occurences of abuse. In my case the people saying the fellowship wants this stuff hushed up are very wrong. I was supported, encouraged and validated by the workers to whom I am very grateful. They have been supportive to me in this for many years now. I agree with this because of my own experience. This is my opinion and I can't say anyone else in the truth or otherwise shares it. Sexual abusers are people who are messed up in the head. There is something wrong with them, something abnormal and it's a psychological/medical problem. It's not caused by upbringing but it could be influenced by it. Influence isn't a cause. I'm not a Doctor or researcher, so I can't say for sure why people do deviant acts. I do know that it happens among many, many groups/affiliations/religions/professions/cultures. To say that because some members of a certain group/affiliation/religion/profession does something bad....means everything about that particular group etc. is bad, is being harsh and unreasonable. Anyone who sexually abuses people/children will be punished by God and I think that's enough. No judge or court on earth is going to dish out a punishment as terrible or as righteous as God will. Flame the workers or flame the truth for whatever actions a few people do, but you can bet that you'll be judged for your judgements. Don't presume to think that your opinion or judgments on this faith and the workers will influence their final judgment. Many of the ex's who speak out against this faith and/or the workers do so because they truly believe they were duped/misled/mistreated/abused/fooled or just plain stopped believing in it. That's fine, just keep in mind that possibly all of our words are being recorded and remembered. I believe that God keeps record of such things and we'll be faced with them on our last day. Our judgments of others will be shown to us and how humiliating is that going to be when we're faced with our own faults?
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