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Post by Another X2X2 on Jun 3, 2006 22:44:30 GMT -5
So many here rely heavily on scripture to make or back up their point and often quote verses when discussing an issue.
For those of you that depend on (any translation of) the bible for justification, condemnation, belief, or doubt on any issue, what say you regarding the contradictions in the bible?
Did the Holy Spirit move the authors to write? Was the Holy Spirit involved in the translations? And if yes to either of the above, what does it mean of the Holy Spirit that the bible contains contradictions?
This has occupied my mind recently and I'd like to hear the opinions of others.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 4, 2006 0:09:53 GMT -5
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Post by Brick on Jun 4, 2006 0:24:00 GMT -5
What I believe is (and I am professing 2x2) is that what we have in the Bible is modified from the original works, but if we are diligent and sincere, we can find the truth that God wants to reveal to us in the Bible that we have. I believe that God reveals to us what he wants us to see and understand. As we grow in faith, we can have a clearer vision and deeper understanding of the mysteries of God's word and way.
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Post by Jessi on Jun 4, 2006 1:02:34 GMT -5
The Bible does not have contradictions, but APPARENT contradictions. It is our duty to study it and figure out that there are NO contradictions. Which APPARENT contradictions are you referring to? Can you name one and we'll go from there?
I'll give it a shot.
Peace, Jessi
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Post by prue on Jun 4, 2006 1:16:28 GMT -5
Jessi. The bible is loaded with contradictions. I don't need to itemise these as you should know - but a few which come to mind include the genealogy lists in the NT, how David met Saul etc. Why shouldn't the bible be allowed to contradict itself? It is, after all, a book of mystery, a book of "strong delusion," a book to confound the wisdom of this world and a book designed to offend the offenders. Bert
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Post by to Jessi on Jun 4, 2006 3:44:52 GMT -5
ok Jess, how about : freely given, freely received - when clearly we know we have to pay for it dressing moderately - when you dress any way you see fit the narrow way that few find - when we know there are many roads that lead to God obedient to the faith and those who have the rule over you - when we are beholden to noone moved by the spirit - we do it if its spelt out in black and white. knowing what manner of spirit we are of - sneering, smearing, mocking 2x2's.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 4, 2006 3:51:49 GMT -5
ok Jess, how about : freely given, freely received - when clearly we know we have to pay for it dressing moderately - when you dress any way you see fit the narrow way that few find - when we know there are many roads that lead to God obedient to the faith and those who have the rule over you - when we are beholden to noone moved by the spirit - we do it if its spelt out in black and white. knowing what manner of spirit we are of - sneering, smearing, mocking 2x2's. Hey, just because you do those things doesn't mean others do. Plus, you also misunderstand scripture. You should take those points you listed and discover what they actually mean. I think that would be good for you. You know, make it your own.
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Post by Jessi on Jun 4, 2006 12:17:37 GMT -5
Hey! I clearly said ONE. GL unplugged is right. You should do a study for yourself. I can hook you up with some helps.
But what I meant was, give me ONE contradiction you see (Chapter and verse, and then other Chapter and verse that contradicts it. Spell it out for me. I'm slow.
PrueBert: WHICH ONE? Chapter and verse.
Christ Lives, Jessi
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Post by Another X2X2 on Jun 4, 2006 12:26:47 GMT -5
The Bible does not have contradictions, but APPARENT contradictions. It is our duty to study it and figure out that there are NO contradictions. Which APPARENT contradictions are you referring to? Can you name one and we'll go from there? I'll give it a shot. Okay, here are a few, pick 1, 2, or do all 3... round 1... Who is Josephs father? MAT 1:16 - And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. LUK 3:23 - And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. round 2... How did Judas die? Matt 27:5 - And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself. Acts 1:18 - And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out. round 3... How was Jesus' concieved? Acts 2:30 - Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Matt 1:18 - Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
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Post by Really on Jun 4, 2006 12:42:00 GMT -5
I'll bite. Has your father-in-law never called you "son"? Matthew's geneaology goes back to Abraham (for the Jews), Luke offers Mary's geneaology back to Adam. Both Mary and Joseph were descendants of David. Really
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Post by What a leap on Jun 4, 2006 12:55:29 GMT -5
I'll bite. Has your father-in-law never called you "son"? Matthew's geneaology goes back to Abraham (for the Jews), Luke offers Mary's geneaology back to Adam. Both Mary and Joseph were descendants of David. Really In other words, bend and twist until it makes sense... This poor book is probably the most abused text on Earth!
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Post by Brick on Jun 4, 2006 13:30:15 GMT -5
What are the important truths in the Bible? I often am confused by the words and self rightious language found in Paul's writings, so I cling to the words of Jesus. I figure that if it was important to me, he probably said it and is preserving down through the ages for us to access today.
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Post by sjg on Jun 4, 2006 14:11:26 GMT -5
2Ti 3:16 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Man does't get to decide which verses were "inspired". And born-again believers don't get the luxury of deciding which verses to accept. It is a package deal!
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eurp
Senior Member
Posts: 290
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Post by eurp on Jun 4, 2006 14:15:26 GMT -5
"Man does't get to decide which verses were "inspired". And born-again believers don't get the luxury of deciding which verses to accept. It is a package deal! "
But its a fact that people who claim to be born again believers do both decide which verses to accept and also to put their own spin on verses.
Might not be right in Gods eyes, but it happens.
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Post by Hello McFly on Jun 4, 2006 14:47:20 GMT -5
2Ti 3:16 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. interesting... quote the very book in question chicken or egg?
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Post by Hilarious on Jun 4, 2006 16:59:02 GMT -5
The Bible does not have contradictions, but APPARENT contradictions. Jessi, I respect most of what you say, but WTH does this mean?
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Some things to ponder
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Post by Some things to ponder on Jun 4, 2006 17:24:36 GMT -5
For more biblical fun than any one person should be allowed to have: www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/300+ contradictions plus so many other things to have fun with.
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what contridictions
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Post by what contridictions on Jun 4, 2006 18:24:29 GMT -5
By Another x2x2
round 1... Who is Josephs father?
MAT 1:16 - And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
LUK 3:23 - And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
ME: So Joseph was the son of Jacob and Helli? Was Heli Jacobs wife?
It is generally thought that one Gospel gives the line of Joseph and the ther the line of Mary.....
round 2... How did Judas die?
Matt 27:5 - And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself.
Acts 1:18 - And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out.
ME: Yes, Putting these 2 passages he hung himself and fell headlong etc.....
round 3... How was Jesus' conceived?
Acts 2:30 - Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Matt 1:18 - Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
ME: and these 2 passages are totally unrelated and talking about 2 different things.
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Post by cheifsinner on Jun 4, 2006 18:56:26 GMT -5
I don't understand how the 2x2's justify the fact that "hirelings" translated the King James version of the Bible.
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Post by Simple on Jun 4, 2006 19:22:37 GMT -5
I don't understand how the 2x2's justify the fact that "hirelings" translated the King James version of the Bible.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 4, 2006 19:33:47 GMT -5
You may be right that it is the most abused book on Earth. And skeptics certainly don't contribute anything positive due to their refusal to apply the same historical assessment tools to this book as they would to other documents from antiquity.
As can be seen from the so-called Skeptics Annotated Bible. Most of the annotations are just plain stupid, and would easily be resolved if the "writers" of the site were prepared to actually interact with historical research on its own terms instead of on terms that they would refuse to apply to any of their darlings, say, evolutionary theory. It is intellectual hypocrisy and the site deserves no more credit than to be considered a piece of mean-spirited satire.
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Post by Rob O on Jun 4, 2006 19:41:47 GMT -5
In response to the starter of this thread:
Yes.
Possibly.
I would recommend looking into some books that take you beyond popular level commentary on scripture and begin to grapple with more scholarly research.
It is easy to throw out "contradictions" (not that you are - but others here have) but takes more dedication to actually research the issues and come to an informed opinion.
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Post by Hilarious on Jun 4, 2006 21:59:45 GMT -5
round 3... How was Jesus' conceived? Acts 2:30 - Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Matt 1:18 - Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. ME: and these 2 passages are totally unrelated and talking about 2 different things. Now there were TWO Jesus Christs? News to me!
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Post by Jessi on Jun 4, 2006 23:12:03 GMT -5
round 1... Who is Josephs father?
MAT 1:16 - And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
LUK 3:23 - And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
CONCERNING THESE TEXTS ABOVE: According to notes in my study Bible, Luke could be giving, “not direct ancestors, but those who would have been legally in line for the throne of David – Both(Luke & Matthew) . . . emphasize that Jesus was of Davidic descent.”
A MODERN-DAY ANALOGY OF PROOF OF HISTORICAL RECORD: A typical defendant in Judge Judy’s courtroom told her his side of the story. JJ’s gaze during his story was fixed, her face like stone as she tapped the folded paper in her hand impatiently on the desk. When he was finished, she, with much flourish, opened the paper in her hand.
“So, what you’re saying, sir, is that today, your memory is much better than it was . . .” she began to raise her voice to a new level of incredulity, “ . . . THE DAY YOU WROTE THIS – THREE HOURS AFTER THE INCIDENT! IS THAT WHAT YOU’RE TELLING ME SIR?”
CONCERNING HISTORICAL RECORD: No one in the church (that I know of) down through the ages (who studied and prayed extensively over difficult passages) ever thought this particular text was inerrant. Back in the day, right after it was written, no one said, “Hey! Heli is not Joseph’s dad! Jacob is!” So, somehow, it doesn’t matter. Somehow, it’s right, if I believe that all scripture is INSPIRED or breathed out by God (II Tim3:16).
THE SYNOPTIC GOSPELS: I view differences in the texts in light of who wrote them and why. I like to read the preface materials at the beginning of each book (Reformation Study Bible).
LUKE - Luke was a doctor and his interests were in salvation history. His method in this genealogy, I believe, has to do with Jesus being the Second, or the Last Adam (I Cor 15:45). He was tracing the Davidic line (the Davidic Covenantal family) and then going further still to the Abrahamic Covenantal family TO PROVE CHHRIST'S SOVEREIGNTY AND PLAN OF REDEMPTION FROM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
MATTHEW – Something interesting I found in the preface: “Distinctive to Matthew is his presentation of the teaching of Jesus in five major discourses: ethics, discipleship and mission, the kingdom of heave, the church, and the end time. These five divisions may have been patterned after the five books of Moses, to present Jesus as the Prophet like Moses of Deut 18:18. THE INERRANCY OF THE HOLY WORD: There are “problem texts” in the Bible that may be argued over extensively, but THEY ARE NOT TEXTS THAT PROHIBIT SALVATION (a believer with a regenerated heart can understand scripture—The Holy Spirit teaches him).
I Cor 2:13-15 Christ is my Lord and my God, Jessi
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Post by Jessi on Jun 4, 2006 23:19:19 GMT -5
Really: If Luke has written the genealogy of Mary, why does he begin with Joseph?
Christ's, Jessi
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Post by Jessi on Jun 4, 2006 23:30:00 GMT -5
Hilarious: Well, this is what we tell people to get them to study instead of just disbelieve. I am of a REFORMED THEOLOGY, which carries a very strict view of the Holy Word, defending our position that the Bible is the INERRANT WORD of God.
I believe this totally - but still, of course, as a sinner, a human, and a layperson, have problems communicating my solid, passionate belief to others!
Our belief in the inerrancy of scripture leads us to believe that there are only contradictions in the Holy, inspired Word of God because we haven't studied enough to understand. It's like blaming God if I can't do something right, but then I realize I was trying to do it myself instead of relying on God to do it--and to just pray until He does it.
Does this help any in understanding my position? I hope so.
Christ is King, Jessi
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Post by Hilarious on Jun 5, 2006 8:02:27 GMT -5
I am of a REFORMED THEOLOGY, which carries a very strict view of the Holy Word, defending our position that the Bible is the INERRANT WORD of God. I believe that the bible is inspired of God but written by man and since man is involved, error is part of it. Therefore, it must be interpreted by way of the Holy Spirit, Faith, and Prayer. (Much like organized religions.) So the bible is the ultimate puzzle and God is the ultimate riddler? How Cruel you must believe God is! If I'm not a historian or linguist, do I have a chance? The Bible is not my God, and is not even a close second!
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Post by Gene on Jun 5, 2006 8:09:35 GMT -5
I am of a REFORMED THEOLOGY, which carries a very strict view of the Holy Word, defending our position that the Bible is the INERRANT WORD of God. I believe that the bible is inspired of God but written by man and since man is involved, error is part of it. Therefore, it must be interpreted by way of the Holy Spirit, Faith, and Prayer. (Much like organized religions.) So the bible is the ultimate puzzle and God is the ultimate riddler? How Cruel you must believe God is! If I'm not a historian or linguist, do I have a chance? The Bible is not my God, and is not even a close second! Amen.
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