|
Post by Proper Noun on Jun 9, 2006 18:12:12 GMT -5
Proper Noun, is your dog a Christian? All dogs are Christians. Cats are of Satan. <Now I don my flame-retardant underwear>
|
|
|
Post by Jessi on Jun 9, 2006 19:07:44 GMT -5
If the bible is so infallable, why does it need to exist in so many English translations? The more copies of something that exists, the better, concerning preservation of the Holy Word. Many versions of the same is not a bad thing. You can compare them and see word differences, etc., but it's all basically the same thing. The more translations that say the same thing is one of many aspects of God's preservation of His Word that is confirmation that it's inerrant. There are over 3,000 copies of parts of the Hebrew OT and over 5,000 NT pieces—preserved all over the world. These were once people’s Bibles. I would rather read a book edited by a group of men who all agreed on the meaning of some Hebrew or Aramaic word hard to translate into English (footnotes, etc. in study Bibles) than by one man. The same thing seems to apply to the linguistics involved in translation. Many tongues, many translations, same Word. There are different manuscripts - Alexandrian (ESV), the Textus Receptus (KJV & others), how the copies were preserved, there's just so much. I bought books on the subject to help me decide if the Bible was truly the Holy Word (AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, I READ THE BIBLE ITSELF FROM COVER TO COVER). I think that is the key because in order to believe it and say I believed it was true, I needed to know what it said. I started out on the premise that it wasn't true. When I got to the end I had changed my mind. The most amazing thing is that so many people died so that the Bible could be written in English & other languages. They were persecuted for trying to translate it into other languages. Many died at the stake and were burnt alive so I could carry my own copy or as many as I want, I can buy! Just THE BLOOD of these holy men and women who gave their lives for this Book warranted at least my investigation. It was written in Latin and no one could understand it. That’s what brought about the Reformation. People like William Tynndale, John Huss, Martin Luther (first German Bible), John Knox and many others knew that people needed to hear the real gospel which was only read in Latin, a language few English peasants knew! The Reformation changed Christ’s kingdom DRAMATICALLY because it put the Word of God into the common people’s hands. The REFORMATION was an eye-opener for me. It was part of my studies to prove to my family that it wasn’t possible that the 2x2s existed before the Reformation. It also helped me to understand that people in history (especially 1400-late 1600) - thought The Bible was the Holy, Inerrant Word of God . . . and thought it worthy enough and Holy enough to give their very lives for it. Something to think about . . . King Jesus Lives, Jessi
|
|
|
Post by to Jessi on Jun 9, 2006 19:19:28 GMT -5
Jessi:
You think the bible is inerrant?
Which version?
If all are inerrant, are you claiming that none of them contradict?
Whew!
|
|
|
Post by Jessi on Jun 10, 2006 12:18:22 GMT -5
Yes, I believe the Bible is inerrant. Based upon the information I have read concerning the autographs and copies, and having read the Bible in its entirety, I believe the Bible is inspired and inerrant.
No particular version is inerrant. Most popular versions today, I would say are still the inspired Word. KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, ESV, NLT (although, I believe true study is better with a WORD FOR WORD translation than a PARAPHRASE.
None of them contradict. Words are different and are assigned somewhat different meanings, but they all say basically the same thing.
Ex: John 1:2
KJV - The same was in the beginning with God. AMP - He was present originally with God. NAS - HE was in the beginning with God. NIV - He was with God in the beginning.
Do you mean contradict each other or have contradictions in them? I wasn't really clear on that.
Christ is the Word,
Jessi
|
|
|
Post by A good answer on Jun 11, 2006 6:05:25 GMT -5
So you believe God could get the universe up and running but He doesn't have enough power to intervene in this way without leaving any trace? Is that about it? There can be no contradiction following this line. Records that tell of two different numbers of people killed can both be true because an all powerful God could easily have created two streams of reality where in one stream 10 were killed and in another 100 were killed. If you have a record of an event and it is recorded differently in two places one of the places in in error.
|
|
|
Post by Incredible on Jun 11, 2006 16:28:37 GMT -5
So you believe God could get the universe up and running but He doesn't have enough power to intervene in this way without leaving any trace? Is that about it? There can be no contradiction following this line. Records that tell of two different numbers of people killed can both be true because an all powerful God could easily have created two streams of reality where in one stream 10 were killed and in another 100 were killed. If you have a record of an event and it is recorded differently in two places one of the places in in error. So now the inerrancy of the bible has come down to this: TIME TRAVEL AND PARALLEL UNIVERSES! Well then, if those are the terms, I guess I agree.
|
|
|
Post by guest on Jun 11, 2006 19:38:57 GMT -5
So many here rely heavily on scripture to make or back up their point and often quote verses when discussing an issue. For those of you that depend on (any translation of) the bible for justification, condemnation, belief, or doubt on any issue, what say you regarding the contradictions in the bible? Did the Holy Spirit move the authors to write? Was the Holy Spirit involved in the translations? And if yes to either of the above, what does it mean of the Holy Spirit that the bible contains contradictions? quote] The bible is a man made book, so it's no wonder there are contradictions. People use it to back up whatever thought they may have in order to give their words a moral and spiritual weight which they believe is backed up by a "higher" authority. But that authority isn’t anything like a “Holy Spirit”, but rather a “spirit” totally created, enjoyed, suffered, and exploited by humans.
|
|
|
Post by tea on Jun 11, 2006 19:54:08 GMT -5
What are the important truths in the Bible? I often am confused by the words and self rightious language found in Paul's writings, so I cling to the words of Jesus. I figure that if it was important to me, he probably said it and is preserving down through the ages for us to access today. Well, that's nice wishful thinking. Fortunately for "red letter" bible people who would like to fall back on this, few actually sit down and compare what Jesus said from gospel to gospel, and consider the consequences of one quote versus the other. Take divorce for example, and take you pick of which you agree with.
|
|
|
Post by exd on Jun 11, 2006 20:12:21 GMT -5
[/quote]
You may be right that it is the most abused book on Earth. And skeptics certainly don't contribute anything positive due to their refusal to apply the same historical assessment tools to this book as they would to other documents from antiquity.
As can be seen from the so-called Skeptics Annotated Bible. Most of the annotations are just plain stupid, and would easily be resolved if the "writers" of the site were prepared to actually interact with historical research on its own terms instead of on terms that they would refuse to apply to any of their darlings, say, evolutionary theory. It is intellectual hypocrisy and the site deserves no more credit than to be considered a piece of mean-spirited satire.[/quote]
Actually, it is the skeptics who have contributed the most to getting the bible straightened out. If it weren't for them we'd still believe the sun goes around the earth, or that somehow all that seashell life up in the mountains got there during the "flood", etc, etc. - or that man was created one day by god.
|
|
|
Post by total on Jun 11, 2006 20:27:42 GMT -5
Did the Holy Spirit move the authors to write?
|
|
|
Post by Jessi on Jun 11, 2006 20:32:55 GMT -5
So many here rely heavily on scripture to make or back up their point and often quote verses when discussing an issue. For those of you that depend on (any translation of) the bible for justification, condemnation, belief, or doubt on any issue, what say you regarding the contradictions in the bible? Did the Holy Spirit move the authors to write? Was the Holy Spirit involved in the translations? And if yes to either of the above, what does it mean of the Holy Spirit that the bible contains contradictions? quote] The bible is a man made book, so it's no wonder there are contradictions. People use it to back up whatever thought they may have in order to give their words a moral and spiritual weight which they believe is backed up by a "higher" authority. But that authority isn’t anything like a “Holy Spirit”, but rather a “spirit” totally created, enjoyed, suffered, and exploited by humans. Modern man is lazy and irreverant and flippant toward the Holiness and Sovereignty of God. I fear for them. I am sorry for it and I pray for the lost who don't believe in God's Holy Word, breathed out by Him. I WANT them to see redemption in all the pages . . . I pray for it. If one is repentant and desperate for God to show him the truth, He will reveal it. I went to the nearest Bible preaching, Christ teaching church and asked some questions and asked them to show me, not tell me. Which they gladly did. I was desperate. I believe God respects desperation. If you are desperate, you might be His. Christ's Forever, Jessi
|
|
|
Post by Question for Jessi on Jun 11, 2006 20:35:06 GMT -5
Jessi: Are there literal errors in the bible?
|
|
|
Post by teener on Jun 11, 2006 20:47:52 GMT -5
The Bible does not have contradictions, but APPARENT contradictions. It is our duty to study it and figure out that there are NO contradictions. Which APPARENT contradictions are you referring to? Can you name one and we'll go from there? I'll give it a shot. Peace, Jessi Well, how about this one. Jesus is guilty of your sins, and therefore you are inocent? If some cult can actually brainwash you into believing that, you're a candidate to believe anything. Well, as an ex now, perhaps there's another way to look at it. The F&W cult is guilty for my sins, therefore I am innocent by reason of temporary insanity. I'll bet there's a few ex's here who would agree with me on that one.
|
|
|
Post by Simple to Jessi on Jun 11, 2006 20:57:45 GMT -5
So many here rely heavily on scripture to make or back up their point and often quote verses when discussing an issue. For those of you that depend on (any translation of) the bible for justification, condemnation, belief, or doubt on any issue, what say you regarding the contradictions in the bible? Did the Holy Spirit move the authors to write? Was the Holy Spirit involved in the translations? And if yes to either of the above, what does it mean of the Holy Spirit that the bible contains contradictions? quote] The bible is a man made book, so it's no wonder there are contradictions. People use it to back up whatever thought they may have in order to give their words a moral and spiritual weight which they believe is backed up by a "higher" authority. But that authority isn’t anything like a “Holy Spirit”, but rather a “spirit” totally created, enjoyed, suffered, and exploited by humans. Modern man is lazy and irreverant and flippant toward the Holiness and Sovereignty of God. I fear for them. I am sorry for it and I pray for the lost who don't believe in God's Holy Word, breathed out by Him. I WANT them to see redemption in all the pages . . . I pray for it. If one is repentant and desperate for God to show him the truth, He will reveal it. I went to the nearest Bible preaching, Christ teaching church and asked some questions and asked them to show me, not tell me. Which they gladly did. I was desperate. I believe God respects desperation. If you are desperate, you might be His. Christ's Forever, Jessi It was desperation that helped me get over my pride. What if all you have left is pride? (and it is like a prison) How can you get help from God when you have pride? How can you be like a child when you are full of pride? I was surprised, I revealed my desperation to someone else. The flesh has no respect for desperation, it is so weak and feeble, but Jesus reached out to me in my hour of need. God definitely understand our futility of life in the flesh, so he gave us Jesus instead of throwing in the towel on his creation. Praise the Lord
|
|
|
Post by trotsky on Jun 11, 2006 21:21:22 GMT -5
[/quote] It was desperation that helped me get over my pride. What if all you have left is pride? (and it is like a prison) How can you get help from God when you have pride? How can you be like a child when you are full of pride? I was surprised, I revealed my desperation to someone else. The flesh has no respect for desperation, it is so weak and feeble, but Jesus reached out to me in my hour of need. God definitely understand our futility of life in the flesh, so he gave us Jesus instead of throwing in the towel on his creation. Praise the Lord [/quote] Considering all the contradictions, and multiple interpretations, it's no wonder that people end up in desperation. It's probably why so many Christians are weird. It's has to be tough trying to reconcile and try and connect all its contents in a reasonable way. It is rather prideful to think you can or ever will. Better to give it up and admit the bible may be a starting point for figuring out what is "right". Get what you can out of it, but then it’s time to mature beyond the thinking of two thousand years ago.
|
|
|
Post by Rob O on Jun 11, 2006 21:25:17 GMT -5
Really? The most? Any reliable statistical data to quantify this claim?
I like the way anti-believers casually dismiss the vast advances to science and knowledge that believers have contributed. For instance, it was a believer, not a skeptic who advanced the understanding that the earth orbits the sun.
|
|
|
Post by Rob O on Jun 11, 2006 21:27:44 GMT -5
Really? Could you point out where the inerrancy of the Bible has come down to time travel and parallel universes? I saw a post (#61) in which someone made a completely irrelevant claim in relation to a question I posed.
|
|
|
Post by Incredible on Jun 11, 2006 21:31:21 GMT -5
Really? Could you point out where the inerrancy of the Bible has come down to time travel and parallel universes? I saw a post (#61) in which someone made a completely irrelevant claim in relation to a question I posed. I was responding to him, not the bible.
|
|
|
Post by Rob O on Jun 11, 2006 21:40:59 GMT -5
Oh. Sorry. My confusion.
|
|
|
Post by Simple on Jun 11, 2006 22:21:48 GMT -5
It was desperation that helped me get over my pride. What if all you have left is pride? (and it is like a prison) How can you get help from God when you have pride? How can you be like a child when you are full of pride? I was surprised, I revealed my desperation to someone else. The flesh has no respect for desperation, it is so weak and feeble, but Jesus reached out to me in my hour of need. God definitely understand our futility of life in the flesh, so he gave us Jesus instead of throwing in the towel on his creation. Praise the Lord [/quote] Considering all the contradictions, and multiple interpretations, it's no wonder that people end up in desperation. It's probably why so many Christians are weird. It's has to be tough trying to reconcile and try and connect all its contents in a reasonable way. It is rather prideful to think you can or ever will. Better to give it up and admit the bible may be a starting point for figuring out what is "right". Get what you can out of it, but then it’s time to mature beyond the thinking of two thousand years ago.[/quote] Go by Faith and do what Jesus said to do and you can then decide for yourself. Until then, it is like you telling me what it is like to be a prima ballerina when you have never put on a pair of dance shoes.... Can an orange judge an apple? Should the apple try to be what the orange wants? How does an orange know what an apple is all about? Believers are believers.......... Non-believers can judge, God is the one with the answers and power and plan. Look at his awsome creation? Look at all the good in yourself! What does it all mean?
|
|
|
Post by dribble on Jun 11, 2006 23:41:44 GMT -5
I like the way anti-believers casually dismiss the vast advances to science and knowledge that believers have contributed. For instance, it was a believer, not a skeptic who advanced the understanding that the earth orbits the sun.[/quote]
I wonder what special insight you have into your judgement about the state of their belief? Let me guess, by the power of the Holy Spirit?. Well yes, perhaps belief in the Greek Gods does lend itself quite a bit better to the truth.
|
|
|
Post by tigger on Jun 11, 2006 23:51:14 GMT -5
[/quote]
Go by Faith and do what Jesus said to do and you can then decide for yourself. ... God is the one with the answers and power and plan. Look at his awsome creation?
What does it all mean?
[/quote]
Been there, done that, It's a great social club. What it means is that the emperor has no clothes except the ones in your imagination.
|
|
|
Post by i see on Jun 12, 2006 1:12:40 GMT -5
I like the way anti-believers casually dismiss the vast advances to science and knowledge that believers have contributed. For instance, it was a believer, not a skeptic who advanced the understanding that the earth orbits the sun. I wonder what special insight you have into your judgement about the state of their belief? Let me guess, by the power of the Holy Spirit?. Well yes, perhaps belief in the Greek Gods does lend itself quite a bit better to the truth.[/quote] You have nothing to say, nothing to add but say it anyway. Dribble fits you.
|
|
|
Post by Jessi on Jun 12, 2006 5:32:31 GMT -5
Jessi: Are there literal errors in the bible? I don't believe any translation is without textual flaws made by man. The inspiration of the autographs, though, and the fact that there are so many copies, secures my faith that most modern translations will still give me the Inspired word of God. The autographs are gone, true. Not preserved. But I still believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. Are the Bible translations today free from man's error? Probably not. But God has preserved what he wished to preserve. I would ask this of those who don't believe the Bible is the inspired Word, but who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ . . . I am quoting: Is Jesus Christ to be regarded as imperfect because His character has never been perfectly reproduced before us? Can He be the incarnate Word unless He were absolutely without sin?And by the same token, can the scriptures be the written Word unless they were inerrant? (James M. Gray, as quoted in God's Word in our Hands:The Bible Preserved for Us, pg 17). Grace to you, Jessi
|
|
|
Post by For Rob on Jun 12, 2006 5:38:34 GMT -5
Really? Could you point out where the inerrancy of the Bible has come down to time travel and parallel universes? I saw a post (#61) in which someone made a completely irrelevant claim in relation to a question I posed. The record of the same event in two places in the Bible. One says n people died. One says m people died. Same event different observation. One is in error. Unless you want to bring in the God of the gaps and say the events both happened as described.
|
|
|
Post by Rob O on Jun 12, 2006 6:55:59 GMT -5
To "For Rob",
I don't know who you are or what posts you have written but it is thoroughly confusing to sort through what are largely unconnected lines of thinking.
So for this thread at least, I am no longer prepared to reply unless,
1) a consistent alias is used from now on and 2) any anonymous writer is prepared to point to exactly which posts are theirs.
|
|