BC
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Posts: 852
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Post by BC on May 28, 2006 8:29:11 GMT -5
Prue stated: Yes, God is in control of the world, but he is not in control of people who disobey him. That is completely unbiblical. All throughtout the prophets, in the book of Ecclisiastes, the letter to the Romans, and sprinkled throughout the New Testament is the idea that God is not only aware of evil persons, but uses them to ultimately glorify Himself. Jesus is Lord of All, whether they acknowledge that fact or not. Karl Hi Karl, What comes through from your post to me is that you have an understanding that God makes everything happen. This is most definately not according to scripture. Let me say that I believe God wants a people who choose him as their God and as such we are free willed to choose or reject God and his Lordship over our life. He wants a free willed people to worship him in spirit and in truth. If he just wanted robotic yes men & women he can raise them up from these very stones around us. Satan..... Did God make him fall from grace? Did he make him desire the office of God himself? No he did not. Satan has a free will, he was cast out from heaven and God has ALLOWED him to range throughout the earth. This being so, satan still has a free will and is seeking those he can lead astray. God doesn't control satan but allows him ...... A big difference. That being said then when satan enters into a man then he is no longer under the control of God but God allows him free will to do as he chooses, sometimes God then allows that man to do the works of satan to achieve his (Gods) will. God is able to cast satan out of a man but if that man then chooses not to accept God into his life then satan will again enter into that man. There are only two options we either serve God or mamon. There is a lot of places in the bible that show this. Read through Job, and in some of the parables that Jesus spoke. This is where I come from when I don't support the theory of wholesale and full predestination. We are predestinated to the grace of God but when you get right back to the original text of the bible I wonder if the words for predestination mean exactly what we all seem to believe it to mean today. I say this because there is many places that go against the meaning of complete predestination. [shadow=red,left,300]Regards BC[/shadow]
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Post by lacpastorunplugged on May 28, 2006 14:02:36 GMT -5
There is a difference between causing and using. I never stated that God caused everything. I said that in the end it is all used for His purposes.
You asked about the original language, here are examples from Greek scholar NT Robertson:
Rom 8:29 - Foreknew (proegnō). Second aorist active indicative of proginōskō, old verb as in Act_26:5. See Psalms 1:6 (lxx) and Mat_7:23. This fore-knowledge and choice is placed in eternity in Eph_1:4. He foreordained (proōrisen). First aorist active indicative of proorizō, late verb to appoint beforehand as in Act_4:28; 1Co_2:7. Another compound with prȯ (for eternity). Conformed to the image (summorphous tēs eikonos). Late adjective from sun and morphē and so an inward and not merely superficial conformity. Eikōn is used of Christ as the very image of the Father (2Co_4:4; Col_1:15). See note on Phi_2:6. for morphē. Here we have both morphē and eikōn to express the gradual change in us till we acquire the likeness of Christ the Son of God so that we ourselves shall ultimately have the family likeness of sons of God. Glorious destiny. That he might be (eis to einai auton). Common idiom for purpose. First born among many brethren (prōtotokon en pollois adelphois). Christ is “first born” of all creation (Col_1:15), but here he is “first born from the dead” (Col_1:18), the Eldest Brother in this family of God’s sons, though “Son” in a sense not true of us.
Eph 1:5 - Having foreordained us (Proorisas hēmās). First aorist active participle of proorizō, late and rare compound to define or decide beforehand. Already in Act_4:28; 1Co_2:7; Rom_8:29. See also Eph_1:11. Only other N.T. example in Eph_1:11. To be taken with exelexato either simultaneous or antecedent (causal). Unto adoption as sons (eis huiothesian). For this interesting word see note on Gal_4:5 (included with discussion of Gal_4:4). Also see Rom_8:15; Rom_9:4. Unto himself (eis auton). Unto God. According to the good pleasure of his will (kata tēn eudokian tou thelēmatos autou). Here eudokian means purpose like boulēn in Eph_1:11 rather than benevolence (good pleasure). Note the preposition kata here for standard.
It means pre destined.
In Romans 11 Paul tells us that God is ultimately beond our understanding. Unless He reveals some things to us, we cannot through our own resources, completely understand Him. That testifies to His greatness.
Karl
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Post by who is paul on May 28, 2006 18:33:38 GMT -5
Who is Paul? You can throw all the Latin that you want at me...and I am less than impressed.
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Striving over words
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Post by Striving over words on May 28, 2006 18:42:10 GMT -5
Paul is the writer of most of the books in the bible. You should know that! And it was he who warned his people about "striving over words." Theology should never boil down to who has the better grasp of language.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2006 19:01:33 GMT -5
Who is Paul? You can throw all the Latin that you want at me...and I am less than impressed. Apparently it's all greek to you... Karl
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Post by guesty on May 28, 2006 20:52:59 GMT -5
If a person directs their language to another, not intending for the other person to understand it, it is generally an attempt to appear superior. There's a certain stench to that type of "non communication."
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Post by guesty on May 28, 2006 20:56:20 GMT -5
AH..you catch on. Tables turned? ;D
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Post by guesty on May 28, 2006 20:58:19 GMT -5
AH..you catch on. Tables turned? ;D in reply to post #28..
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sojourner not loggedin
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Post by sojourner not loggedin on May 28, 2006 21:10:11 GMT -5
www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ripper/index_1.htmllink to Jack the Ripper, serial killer of women Prue, There is nothing new under the sun. From Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit, murder of a brother, Tamar, Lot (and his daughters), social ills and religious falling away is pointed out countless times in the scripture........polygamy-Hagar, homosexual relations........it goes on and on......in the scripture. Slavery has been a part of human life....even in biblical times. Today's world is no different-except we have better communication and we hear about it. Since we have left meetings and have began talking to people and listening to what they are saying we find that there are huge numbers of "unchurched" but spiritual people. People who do not feel the need to be counted in on the roster of an organized denomination. They read, pray, meditate but do not feel the need to be in an official group. They are raising interesting spiritual children and none of these people are outside of God's touch. When thinking about the members of Christ's body, we have several choices. We have the exclusive way-only WE are the body. And you have the scriptural way- 1Co 12:12 Different Members in One Body For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body — though many — are one body, so too is Christ. 1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether Jews or Greeks or slaves4 or free, we were all made to drink of the one Spirit. 1Co 12:14 For in fact the body is not a single member, but many. (NET bible) Evil is all around, we do not have to worry, the members of the body are praying, I find great comfort in that. Again, I trust that God can, will and does control according to his sovereign will. God created everything-I believe he can deal with the evil-if and when he so chooses. Kathy G. (By the way, one year ago this spring at deaf special meeting, a worker spoke about the members of the body.......it became VERY clear to me as he spoke what these verses mean. I am thankful for the message that God was speaking to my heart that day!)
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Post by prue on May 28, 2006 23:09:22 GMT -5
Hi Sojourner. They suspect Jack the Ripper wasn't Jill the Ripper. But I did read that female serial killers were something new, at least as far as US crime studies determined. And slavery is older than humanity (does that make sense?) But there are new things appearing which would have surprised other generations, such as I mentioned in my post. No need to repeat them. And polygamy was common once, yes. And the same for pederastery - it was common in Roman-Grecian times. So too perhaps homosexual gang rape, as happened in Sodom with Lot.
But I am referring to our Judea Christian world in these particular cases.
How long before pagan pederastery comes acceptable? A professor at a uni in Georgia USA made the following observation in 2003: Feminism was taboo in 1900, and homosexuality was still taboo in 1950. Therefore, he thought it wouldn't be long before adults sexually consorted with pubescent minors openly - it would become the next "last taboo" to be overthrown.
Make no mistake Sojourner - there will be no "last taboos" in this present evil world.
My country is becoming a less churchy, more "spiritual" country, according to our census. We are casting off old notions of working out our salvation in fear and trembling. Our tiny population of 20 million and few children now has 1,100,000 kids without fathers; we have 300,000 dope addicts, we have a police force much higher than it was when I was born, and for every policeman we have 4 private policemen, aka security guards. Imagine - my parents grew up in a large town where no-one even had a lock on their door, and they filled those little churches every Sunday.
Most of the authors of the New Testament spoke about these times, I think Paul referred to it as the great "falling away," and John spoke of the churches being emptied.
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Post by prue on May 29, 2006 1:15:32 GMT -5
Sojourner - I see what you thought I meant with "female serial killers." I don't mean guys who kill women, I mean the Aileen Wuornos kind of gal who prey on men. Sorry.
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