Spanking

[please]

If you start a new job do you think it's OK for your new employers to use corporal punishment in training you? Even if there are safety concerns?

What's with the name calling? Because we disagree does not mean any of us have to be fools.

[omg]

raok said:

Even if the real lesson is don't get caught?

You are quite possibly one of the dumbest gits I've seen on this board.

What do you care if the lesson is don't get caught.

You're the nit-wit that says no punishment what-so-ever.

NO PUNISHMENT??? LORD HAVE MERCY!!!

[to please]

please said:

If you start a new job do you think it's OK for your new employers to use corporal punishment in training you?

If you're old enough to be starting a job, you should already have enough self-control, discipline, manners, self-respect, and reasoning-skills to function properly in the workplace.

If you don't (a growing problem in our society (I wonder why)) then you're new employer can fire you and hire someone who was spanked as a child.

[timeout]

withopeneyes said:

I would consider the removal of toys or a timeout to be an effective consequence of misbehaviour.

I loved timeout.

It was great for thinking about how I could've gotten away with it and cooking up new and devilish troublemaking schemes.

But my parents didn't know it.

If I ever have kids I'm not sure I'll give them the same chance to get into more trouble by sitting idly in a corner.

[withopeneyes (Mandy)]

I think nowdays, we have to be very careful about spanking. My brother-in-law was turned into the CPS for spanking his son. With the risk of our children being taken away from us, I would rather avoid spanking all-together, even if I felt it was okay. Too many horror stories about good parents being turned in to cps for a simple spanking.

(For the record, my husband spanks... I prefer not to. We've had discussions about discipline, which is why he uses spanking as a last resort.)

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

omg said:

raok said:

Even if the real lesson is don't get caught?

You are quite possibly one of the dumbest gits I've seen on this board.

What do you care if the lesson is don't get caught.

You're the nit-wit that says no punishment what-so-ever.

NO PUNISHMENT??? LORD HAVE MERCY!!!

You are right, I am possibly the dumbest person posting on this message board.

Teaching children that the lesson is "Don't get caught" means that if they believe they can get away with whatever it is, they will.

I am guessing that the 3 year old has been spanked more than once for playing with the. And, as soon as Dad is not looking - she is back.

Just for the record - I have never said no discipline.
I have said that a child can be disciplined without hitting them or causing them pain.

The goal, it seems to me, is to reinforce the behavior we desire to see in our children.

There are two ways to strengthen a desired behavior - Negative or positive reinforcement.

On the other hand, there are two ways to weaken undesired behavior - punishment or extinction. Since they both work, why choose punishment? Especially painful physical punishment?

[Clearly]

omg said:

What do you care if the lesson is don't get caught.

If you are spanking you children to teach them not to play with the gas and the lesson they learn is to not get caught - they have learned the wrong lesson and there is still the possibility they will play with the gas at a time when they know they will not get caught.

[sad but true]

withopeneyes said:

I think nowdays, we have to be very careful about spanking. My brother-in-law was turned into the CPS for spanking his son. With the risk of our children being taken away from us, I would rather avoid spanking all-together, even if I felt it was okay. Too many horror stories about good parents being turned in to cps for a simple spanking.

Agreed. And these gestapo tactics of the anti-spanking Nazis is just another tool they have to make spanking less effective... which is exactly what they want it to be.

The anti-spankers don't like it that spanking works, so they get the government to hassle parents who do it, thereby reducing its effectiveness.

Slimy bastards!

[mrleo]

Extinction is less convenient. It requires intelligence and patience, and it doesn't give the parent the immediate feeling of power/control that spanking does, because spanking is about power. It is about showing who is in control and who is not. Unless someone has supernatural powers that can convey motive/intention/reasoning through the palm of their hand or the end of a hairbrush, it merely teaches pain avoidance. In other words, even when you spank, you don't use spanking alone - you spank and then you say "No!" or "Bad!" to the very young child, and more extensive verbal justification as the child ages and becomes more cognizant. If spanking were truly an effective "teacher" there would be no need to add anything to it.

[Kaylas dad]

raok said:

You are right, I am possibly the dumbest person posting on this message board.

Teaching children that the lesson is "Don't get caught" means that if they believe they can get away with whatever it is, they will.

I am guessing that the 3 year old has been spanked more than once for playing with the. And, as soon as Dad is not looking - she is back.

Just for the record - I have never said no discipline.
I have said that a child can be disciplined without hitting them or causing them pain.

The goal, it seems to me, is to reinforce the behavior we desire to see in our children.

There are two ways to strengthen a desired behavior - Negative or positive reinforcement.

On the other hand, there are two ways to weaken undesired behavior - punishment or extinction. Since they both work, why choose punishment? Especially painful physical punishment?

Wow! You really are all over the board on this one. You must be a politician the way you play with words all the time.

Why don't you give us an example.

Try this:

My 10 month old, Kayla, keeps pulling the table-cloth off the table. I've said no. She does it anyway. I've removed her from the room. She returns and does it anyway. I've tried distracting her. She does it anyway.

What do I do?

[to RAOK]

raok said:

Teaching children that the lesson is "Don't get caught" means that if they believe they can get away with whatever it is, they will.

Well it seems any form of correction would teach this; don't get caught.

So do you advocate no correction at all?

[manoman]

raok said:

I am guessing that the 3 year old has been spanked more than once for playing with the. And, as soon as Dad is not looking - she is back.

I wonder why you assume this as after years of parenting, this has not been my experience. My experience has taught me that spanking teaches the lesson - my children don't go back to the undesired behavior. And yes I do know for sure - parents have their ways.

The goal, it seems to me, is to reinforce the behavior we desire to see in our children.

I agree. But what about the undesireable behavior? Ignore it?

Reward desireable behavior. Ignore undesireable behavior.

Don't think so...

[darwin]

Clearly said:

omg said:

What do you care if the lesson is don't get caught.

If you are spanking you children to teach them not to play with the gas and the lesson they learn is to not get caught - they have learned the wrong lesson and there is still the possibility they will play with the gas at a time when they know they will not get caught.

That's why you ignore them - so they'll learn on their own.

[to leo]

mrleo said:

Extinction is less convenient.

and often impractical, dangerous, even deadly.

It requires intelligence and patience, and it doesn't give the parent the immediate feeling of power/control that spanking does

That's good, cause we all know the kid is the one that should be in control.

because spanking is about power. It is about showing who is in control and who is not.

only to sickos

to the rest of us its about manners, discipline, self-control, self-respect, etc.

Unless someone has supernatural powers that can convey motive/intention/reasoning through the palm of their hand or the end of a hairbrush

you been reading too much superman

it merely teaches pain avoidance

as does life itself

If spanking were truly an effective "teacher" there would be no need to add anything to it.

If CARS were truly effective transportation, there would be no need to add FUEL to them.

Gimme a break.

[juliette]

Kaylas said:

raok said:

You are right, I am possibly the dumbest person posting on this message board.

Teaching children that the lesson is "Don't get caught" means that if they believe they can get away with whatever it is, they will.

I am guessing that the 3 year old has been spanked more than once for playing with the. And, as soon as Dad is not looking - she is back.

Just for the record - I have never said no discipline.
I have said that a child can be disciplined without hitting them or causing them pain.

The goal, it seems to me, is to reinforce the behavior we desire to see in our children.

There are two ways to strengthen a desired behavior - Negative or positive reinforcement.

On the other hand, there are two ways to weaken undesired behavior - punishment or extinction. Since they both work, why choose punishment? Especially painful physical punishment?

Wow! You really are all over the board on this one. You must be a politician the way you play with words all the time.

Why don't you give us an example.

Try this:

My 10 month old, Kayla, keeps pulling the table-cloth off the table. I've said no. She does it anyway. I've removed her from the room. She returns and does it anyway. I've tried distracting her. She does it anyway.

What do I do?

I would take the tablecloth off of the table. She's 10 months old... her job is to explore. Do you really think that if you spank her she'll get that you're point is that she shouldn't mess with the tablecloth... she's 10 months old.

[juliette]

Cessna said:

Our son refused to do his homework so we took his XBox (in his room) away. He found where we hid it and put it back in his room.

So we took his Xbox away and his television and locked it in a cabinet in the garage. He broke into the cabinet and put it back in his room.

To keep us out of his room, he installed some kind of lock on his door so we couldn't get in.

So we switched off the circuit breaker to his room. He switched the circuit breaker back on and super-glued them or something because they won't budge now.

We won't spank him.

Any suggestions from here?

Family counseling?

[mrleo]

and often impractical, dangerous, even deadly.

Often? How often? Could you provide some non-hypothetical examples?

That's good, cause we all know the kid is the one that should be in control.

Do we?

only to sickos

to the rest of us its about manners, discipline, self-control, self-respect, etc.

There are sickos...and then there are sickos who value manners, discipline, self-control, self-respect, etc. and mistakenly believe that hitting is the best way to teach those things.

as does life itself

Sometimes it does...why add to it?

If CARS were truly effective transportation, there would be no need to add FUEL to them.

Gimme a break.

If you'll explain your comparison...children are like cars and spanking is the fuel that makes them effective? Or is spanking like a car, and communication is the fuel that makes it effective?

[jude]

I see both sides. I choose not to spank as a rule. I'll tell ya though, when my son would try to run inton traffic I'd swat his butt and would not care what anyone thought. When it comes to modifying his behavior, Taking away priviledges is much more effective. Bedtime works well too!! With my daughter we are just embarking on behavior that needs to be modified. So far time-outs and diversion work best.

What I don't understand are those who get angry at others because others choose differently than they do. The above poster is right. We should not use blanket statements. That goes for spanking as the only choice as well.

All children are different. I do think though that as a rule physical punishment should be a last resort. We want to correct our children with love. I was beat as a child and it was not effective. Somehow I knew that I deserved better. My mother used spanking as a disciplinary tool because she was too busy living her own life to apply herself to parenting her children.

I just wanted to add that I encourage positive behavior by acknowledging it. Sometimes with my son I have to look very hard to find something to compliment him on. It may be as simple as he put the lid down after using the bathroom!! But it works!
I also agree with open eyes. Sometimes a little quality time is all my children need to get themselves on track. In today's busy world that is hard to give them, but I find it is more effective for my children that spanking them.

Just my thoughts...
Jude

[jude]

BTW, I believe that the reason we are having such trouble with children now-a-days is we are allowing them to be raised by people that are not their parents. It does not have that much to do with choosing not to spank. It has more to do with family's choosing to have both parents working outside of the home.

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

Kaylas said:

Wow! You really are all over the board on this one. You must be a politician the way you play with words all the time.

Why don't you give us an example.

Try this:

My 10 month old, Kayla, keeps pulling the table-cloth off the table. I've said no. She does it anyway. I've removed her from the room. She returns and does it anyway. I've tried distracting her. She does it anyway.

What do I do?

She is 10 months old. Get rid of the table cloth. Childproof your home.

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

Kaylas said:

Wow! You really are all over the board on this one. You must be a politician the way you play with words all the time.

As it turns out, words have meanings.

There is a difference between punishment and discipline.

Are there any other words you would like to discuss?

[withopeneyes (Mandy)]

Jude, I just want to say AMEN. Great points, especially the points that #1, each child is different. What works for one may not work for another. #2, we need to be raising our children, instead of allowing nannies, teachers/principals, and daycare providers do the majority of the work.

I'd also like to make the point that children copy what they see. So, if you cuss, yell, spank, call people bad names, etc.... they will probably do the same.

Again, positive quality time is key. If your child is getting into something they shouldn't (mainly talking about young children here), you can "distract them" by playing with them.

[temptation]

juliette said:

I would take the tablecloth off of the table. She's 10 months old... her job is to explore. Do you really think that if you spank her she'll get that you're point is that she shouldn't mess with the tablecloth... she's 10 months old.

What a load of garbage.

Juliette, will you please pull your head out!

Part of exploration is learning boundaries.

Children need to learn to cope with temptation.

I've come across your type before and you people make me sick. It's people like you that think she shouldn't play outside because of the many dangerous temptations out there. She may put something dangerous in her mouth, she may run into the street, etc, and rather than teaching her not to do those things you idiots want to remove the temptation by doing something stupid like keeping her indoors.

I feel sorry for your children, and I especially pity the children they'll someday have.

[Dawn]

temptation said:

[I feel sorry for your children, and I especially pity the children they'll someday have.

You Christians have such kindness in your hearts. It makes me glad to be a godless heathen.

[to leo]

How long ya been a 2x2 leo? Were ya b&r?

As I figure it, quite a while since you obviously have two of the more outstanding characteristics: (1) you love baiting arguments that avoid the real topic and (2) you don a mask of superiority to feed and simultaneously hide your gargantuan ego.

mrleo said:

Often? How often? Could you provide some non-hypothetical examples?

I would, but you'd take it out of context, twist it, abuse it, then provide some meaningless explanation as to why I'm wrong. I'll save you the trouble by saying "NO".

Do we?

It was sarcasm. Look it up.

There are sickos...and then there are sickos who value manners, discipline, self-control, self-respect, etc. and mistakenly believe that hitting is the best way to teach those things.

We both have our opinions and judgments.

Sometimes it does...why add to it?

It is necessary.

If you'll explain your comparison...children are like cars and spanking is the fuel that makes them effective? Or is spanking like a car, and communication is the fuel that makes it effective?

If you were interested in honest debate here, I'd say the prior, or I might even say look at it how you want. The point is, spanking is an element in a system, and you're argument had it acting on its own so you could condemn it....... ah what's the use..... you'll pick this apart with some pointless argument...... you're not worth my time.

[to Random]

raok said:

She is 10 months old. Get rid of the table cloth. Childproof your home.

Absolutely! After all, we'd never want her to develop the character and self-control it takes to avoid temptation!

Honestly! Can you imagine a world where everyone knows how to avoid inappropriate temptation? What a disaster that would be!

[no way]

raok said:

Kaylas said:

Wow! You really are all over the board on this one. You must be a politician the way you play with words all the time.

As it turns out, words have meanings.

There is a difference between punishment and discipline.

Are there any other words you would like to discuss?

Ummm... no thanks. I've read the rest of this thread and I've seen the pages where you've had your fun with word games and use of selective definitions. I have a life. I'll pass.

[lol]

juliette said:

Kaylas said:

I would take the tablecloth off of the table. She's 10 months old... her job is to explore. Do you really think that if you spank her she'll get that you're point is that she shouldn't mess with the tablecloth... she's 10 months old.

Good idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get rid of everything else in the house that's dangerous too.

No hot water. No electricity. No household cleaners. And while your at it, pitch the common sense... oh wait... you already did.