Spanking

[yes kinda]

raok said:

well said:

well i for one have twins, there father is at work, I'm home alone with them, and I'm not about to tie them together. They can't both be in my sight 100% of the time.

Twins - that's a hand full.

But let's say there is a closet with cleaning supplies. You see the twins go into the closet. So you spank them.

Would you then feel comfortable leaving them in the room and trust that the spanking will prevent them from going into the closet?

It's more complex than that. Spanking comes after all else has failed, but yes once I spank them, they change their behavior.

Not that I tempt them with danger, but all danger cannot be removed.

[question3]

Discipline, the verb in the context of raising children, is something you do to modify your child's behavior.

I'm confused. I thought you said discipline was good, punishment wasn't but couldn't punishment be a form of discipline. Even spanking could be called a form of discipline. Or are you saying that only certain kinds of discipline are right???

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

Hey said:

Random Acts...

you say you are required to report abuse

do you report spanking parents as abuse?

Short answer - no.

In general, spanking, hitting with the open palm on the buttocks, is not considered abuse.

If this is what is going on there is no problem.

Breaking the skin, hitting in the face with anything but the open palm, holding a child by their arm above the ground and 'spanking' them, or hitting elsewhere on the body is certainly questionable.

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

question3 said:

Discipline, the verb in the context of raising children, is something you do to modify your child's behavior.

I'm confused. I thought you said discipline was good, punishment wasn't but couldn't punishment be a form of discipline. Even spanking could be called a form of discipline. Or are you saying that only certain kinds of discipline are right???

I didn't assign a good or bad value to discipline. It is necessary to raise children.

Of course spanking could be a form of discipline. So could electric shock. Cigarette burns. Doesn't mean we have to use them.

However, discipline does not have to be punishment. It could easily be some form of positive or negative reinforcement or extinction.

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

yes said:

raok said:

Twins - that's a hand full.

But let's say there is a closet with cleaning supplies. You see the twins go into the closet. So you spank them.

Would you then feel comfortable leaving them in the room and trust that the spanking will prevent them from going into the closet?

It's more complex than that. Spanking comes after all else has failed, but yes once I spank them, they change their behavior.

Not that I tempt them with danger, but all danger cannot be removed.

But the question was, do you feel that the spanking modifies their behavior to the extent that you feel safe to leave them alone in the room where the closet is?

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

about said:

Hey said:

Random Acts...

you say you are required to report abuse

do you report spanking parents as abuse?

He'll play games with this one, as always.

You *may* have better luck by asking this way:

You say you are required to report abuse.

(1) How do you define ABUSE?
(2) Do you report as ABUSE, parents who spank their children?

It is not a game. It is a result of inarticulate questions.

Abuse is emotional or physical injury inflicted by one person on another.

Spanking generally does not cause physical injury and I have to believe that most parents are not intent on causing emotional injury.

Spanking is reportable if there is physical damage being caused; i.e., broken skin, broken bones, dislocated joints, blows directed at the head, torso, groin, or the use of a closed hand.

Pulling a child by the arm with enough force to cause pain, pinching, twisting of arms, pulling hair, biting, etc, are frowned upon.

But remember, only about 25% of child abuse cases are physical because of abuse.

[reached the point of whatever]

raok said:

If I were arguing a vegetarian standpoint, I would state that there are alternatives to eating meat and that eating meat is unnecessary.

This does not condemn the practice of eating meat, it just states the point that there are alternatives.

Vegetarianism and raising children just don't compare here. Sorry.

This is incorrect and I don't believe I have ever stated this.
I am a mandated reporter in this state and am required by law to report and case of child abuse I see.

A summary of the statute:
A report is required when the mandated reporter has reasonable cause to believe that a child under 18 years of age is suffering physical or emotional injury resulting from abuse inflicted upon him which causes harm or substantial risk of harm to the child's health or welfare including sexual abuse, or from neglect, including malnutrition. Failure to file is a criminal offense.

It is not my rule.

I will assume then that you do not believe spanking to be abuse.

Your logic is flawed.

You seem to think that you are the only person who has ever had to deal with a stubborn child and that the only solution is spanking.

What are you basing this judgement on?

My experience had been that there are other methods. I don't think the parents are misguided but rather are following the path that their parents did.

This is the judgement I was talking about. You are saying here that parents who spank are simply uneducated (ie. they don't know any better, and if they did, they would choose your high road of not spanking).

As long as it does not cross the line of child abuse parents can spank their children.

This sounds nice but I'm suspicious of your definition of child abuse. Care to give it?

How about the post I am responding to? You state at the end that I have never had to deal with a stubborn child. This after an explanation of why I came to the conclusion that spanking does not solve the problem. Glad you were ready!

Sorry! I'm really good at giving people a dose of their own medicine. You say there is always a valid alternative to spanking. I say there is not. This means one of two things - 1) I've dealt with children more stubborn than you have or 2) I just don't know what I'm doing. You vote for 2. I vote for 1. We're even. You have your opinion. I have mine. I don't expect this to change. We're both 2x2's or ex-2x2's. We're stubborn as hell by nature and religious cult upbringing. We don't know how to give. We don't listen to reason. We don't see things from other's point of view. We don't relent. Nuff said.

<remainder deleted as I've lost interest in waiting for the coin to hit the bottom of the bottomless pit>

[curiously]

mrleo said:

If speed is the goal then go ahead and bite your dog - actually, that's how a puppy raised in a litter by its mother would naturally learn that biting hurts and what it means in terms of dog-speak.

But since the issue at hand is parenting/training humans, and not dogs (and incidentally, I used the slower, non-biting method with my dog when she was a puppy and she learned quickly enough to suit me), I would advocate patience and perseverance.

In other words, all dogs and all humans can be trained with the alternate methods?

[not absolutely]

raok said:

But the question was, do you feel that the spanking modifies their behavior to the extent that you feel safe to leave them alone in the room where the closet is?

In terms of absolutes, NO.

In terms of degrees, I feel much more comfortable once spanking has been used because once we have gotten past that point, I am much more confident in their obedience.

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

reached said:

raok said:

If I were arguing a vegetarian standpoint, I would state that there are alternatives to eating meat and that eating meat is unnecessary.

This does not condemn the practice of eating meat, it just states the point that there are alternatives.

Vegetarianism and raising children just don't compare here. Sorry.

The point was not to compare them. It was in response to the accusation that because someone says there are alternatives they are somehow condemning the original.

Saying there are alternatives to spanking does not condemn the use of spanking.

I will assume then that you do not believe spanking to be abuse.

Certainly not in all cases. If it results in a broken jaw or arm, I would change my mind!

What are you basing this judgement on?

Physical harm to the child.

This is the judgement I was talking about. You are saying here that parents who spank are simply uneducated (ie. they don't know any better, and if they did, they would choose your high road of not spanking).

I said neither of the things you have mentioned. I said they decided to continue with the methods they knew. Education had nothing to do with it.

I think we have a vastly different world view. I have seen the children of very well educated people who have been 'spanked' to the point where hamburger would be a good description. On the other hand I have seen people who did not complete high school raising children in unbelievable conditions and never raising a hand against them.

You choice of 'high road' is interesting.

This sounds nice but I'm suspicious of your definition of child abuse. Care to give it?

I have. You can check in your state. Most states have some guidelines about what should not be done to children. Hitting the head is usually mentioned as a no-no.

How about the post I am responding to? You state at the end that I have never had to deal with a stubborn child. This after an explanation of why I came to the conclusion that spanking does not solve the problem. Glad you were ready!

Sorry! I'm really good at giving people a dose of their own medicine. You say there is always a valid alternative to spanking. I say there is not. This means one of two things - 1) I've dealt with children more stubborn than you have or 2) I just don't know what I'm doing. You vote for 2. I vote for 1. We're even. You have your opinion. I have mine. I don't expect this to change. We're both 2x2's or ex-2x2's. We're stubborn as hell by nature and religious cult upbringing. We don't know how to give. We don't listen to reason. We don't see things from other's point of view. We don't relent. Nuff said.

You seem to think that the stubbornness of the child has something to do with the means that are needed to modify behavior.

I have no idea if you know what you are doing or not. I do know that at some point you decided the only alternative to modify the child's behavior was punishment. Maybe it worked.

I would have chosen a different means. Maybe it worked.

The difference is, I wouldn't have selected the punishment route.
You wouldn't have chosen the non-punishment route.

Having studied a bit about behaviors and how they can be modified, there are most likely several possibilities.

Of course, the parents behavior is also in play. We use what worked before.

[VERY TRUE]

professing.proboards16.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1147466662&page=10#1169076409

How true.

Much of this is Random Act of Kindness' words which he has since denied.

How typical.

This stands on it's own.

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

VERY said:

professing.proboards16.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1147466662&page=10#1169076409

How true.

Much of this is Random Act of Kindness' words which he has since denied.

How typical.

This stands on it's own.

Some of the words are mine and some are not.

Some words are taken out of context, some are not.

If you want to bring specific examples I would be happy to discuss them.

[IllinoisGal]

Kaylas said:

raok said:

You are right, I am possibly the dumbest person posting on this message board.

Teaching children that the lesson is "Don't get caught" means that if they believe they can get away with whatever it is, they will.

I am guessing that the 3 year old has been spanked more than once for playing with the. And, as soon as Dad is not looking - she is back.

Just for the record - I have never said no discipline.
I have said that a child can be disciplined without hitting them or causing them pain.

The goal, it seems to me, is to reinforce the behavior we desire to see in our children.

There are two ways to strengthen a desired behavior - Negative or positive reinforcement.

On the other hand, there are two ways to weaken undesired behavior - punishment or extinction. Since they both work, why choose punishment? Especially painful physical punishment?

Wow! You really are all over the board on this one. You must be a politician the way you play with words all the time.

Why don't you give us an example.

Try this:

My 10 month old, Kayla, keeps pulling the table-cloth off the table. I've said no. She does it anyway. I've removed her from the room. She returns and does it anyway. I've tried distracting her. She does it anyway.

What do I do?

Simple......Take the tablecloth off. ;D

[of course]

illinoisgal said:

Kaylas said:

Wow! You really are all over the board on this one. You must be a politician the way you play with words all the time.

Why don't you give us an example.

Try this:

My 10 month old, Kayla, keeps pulling the table-cloth off the table. I've said no. She does it anyway. I've removed her from the room. She returns and does it anyway. I've tried distracting her. She does it anyway.

What do I do?

Simple......Take the tablecloth off. ;D

Nah... put her in a padded cell!

After all it's the tablecloth now, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else and then something else

[Potter]

If your gonna beat the naughty Kid, make a full job of it. No point leaving it half done.
Spanking is sissy.
Get a broad belt and call it Aunty Hilda or something that strikes fear in 'em.
Don't beat 'em with the buckle part.... that really hurts.

[sack]

I say go one further

If your gonna beat your kid you might as well rumpy pumpy em up good

Strip all their clothes off - violate em with a broom handle - poor boiling water on em - beat em with a butcher knife - clobber em over the head with a frying pan - break their arms and legs - force feed em their own waste - and yell directly in their ears with an amplified horn

After all your goal is to scare the little sh-s and make em fear ya

Respect through love and all that right

The more ya heart em the more they'll love you and better they'll be right

So figure out what'll kill em, back it off a notch, and pull the trigger

[JUST SAY NO 2 VIOLENCE]

The language of the last two posts is very negative but makes the point.

The world today is a real mess. Just read the papers and watch the news.

With so many parents beating their children as a form of discipline, is it really any wonder that the state of affairs in this world is so dim?

Children beating, stabbing, shooting, killing, sexually assaulting, and otherwise abusing other children... do we not see the link?

Columbine and all the other school shootings are a direct result of parents spanking their children.

This may anger some of you, but I think it's time that the UN puts a world-wide ban on all forms of spanking.

Who knows. If they did, this could be the ticket to reducing aggression in people and within 10 years, we might even see less war or even better it could be almost no war!

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

of said:

Nah... put her in a padded cell!

After all it's the tablecloth now, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else

<snip>

After all it's the tablecloth now, then something else, then something else, then something else, then something else

No one said raising children was an easy job.
It will always be something else. Bad dreams in the middle of the night, illness at the most inconvenient times, - just one tablecloth after another!

[eurobrit]

JUST said:

The language of the last two posts is very negative but makes the point.

The world today is a real mess. Just read the papers and watch the news.

With so many parents beating their children as a form of discipline, is it really any wonder that the state of affairs in this world is so dim?

Children beating, stabbing, shooting, killing, sexually assaulting, and otherwise abusing other children... do we not see the link?

Columbine and all the other school shootings are a direct result of parents spanking their children.

This may anger some of you, but I think it's time that the UN puts a world-wide ban on all forms of spanking.

Who knows. If they did, this could be the ticket to reducing aggression in people and within 10 years, we might even see less war or even better it could be almost no war!

you are joking ? right ? you are aware that nothing, repeat nothing, is more deeply engrained in human pysche than violence. the sole purpose of society is to contorl and restrict violence to state approved arenas. society does thus be setting boundaries then punishing those who overstep the boundaries, yes that right, PUNISH. if parents do not set and enforce boundaries then there is no teaching of consequences and society will inevitably breakdown. its no coincidence that the breakdown of society referred to above really began when punishment was seen as an obsence word and the rights of the individual to do anything they wanted became overriding. spanking children when they do wrong and wont listen to any warning or other input is a required part of society and teaches children that pain is the ultimate consequence of continual refusal to heed boundries.

[caff]

eurobrit said:

spanking children when they do wrong and wont listen to any warning or other input is a required part of society and teaches children that pain is the ultimate consequence of continual refusal to heed boundries.

how does it work when the child doesn't fear spanking?
I could spank my 3 y/old - but would put money down in advance to say he won't cry and what I will get in return is rage. So what do I do then? Hit him harder? I could make him 'sorry' - simply by force because I'm an adult and he isn't. But what is going on inside his head won't be "I will obey because it's the right thing to do". More like "wait til I'm bigger than her" or "next time she won't see me do it".

i'm not saying i have answers - i'm like many many other parents who want to raise an ethical child but who, at the same time, don't see spanking him as providing anything helpful even in the short term.

does anyone have a magic wand?

/c

[dear caff]

caff said:

how does it work when the child doesn't fear spanking?

I don't mean to be rude, but if your child doesn't fear pain then you aren't beating him hard enough or he has a medical condition that doesn't allow him to feel pain. The prior is probably the case. I'm against spanking but I deal with children for a living and can tell you that ALL CHILDREN ===FEAR=== PAIN, and if you think they don't, you just haven't hit their threshold for tolerating it.

Please do not take this as an endorsement or advice to hit your child. I'm against all physical abuse including spanking and even think it should be outlawed.

[Explain]

Assuming you've tried explaining the reason adverse behavior is not the right course of action, do you EVER talk in front of the child in relating that adverse behavior and his inability to accept spanking as correction when you felt it was needed? Often parents know nothing of "self-fulfilling prophecies" regarding their children.

Since you are now in the situation you are in, a three year old child unless handicapped from learning is old enough to calmly discuss the reasons behind why you wish him to obey, or change his behavior. Sure it takes patience, and great effort. You could be creative in your "punishment" used in attempting to help him correct his behavior.

Once I tried simply explaining. Then pulling out a bar of soap, asking him if he knew what it tasted like? Looking into his eyes was like watching a lightbulb turn on inside his mind! (Most three yearolds have tasted soap!!!) Using his growing awareness, I explained that the reason I might have to resort to using soap within his mouth was to teach him a consequence for doing something that was very wrong, which if he did not learn as a child would cause much worse punishment as he grew older by those who did NOT love him. No soap was even needed.

Kids need to learn, as parents we need to learn how to help them learn. Sad when the only lesson the child learns is that they will suffer if they get caught.

[dear Explain]

Explain said:

Assuming you've tried explaining the reason adverse behavior is not the right course of action, do you EVER talk in front of the child in relating that adverse behavior and his inability to accept spanking as correction when you felt it was needed? Often parents know nothing of "self-fulfilling prophecies" regarding their children.

Since you are now in the situation you are in, a three year old child unless handicapped from learning is old enough to calmly discuss the reasons behind why you wish him to obey, or change his behavior. Sure it takes patience, and great effort. You could be creative in your "punishment" used in attempting to help him correct his behavior.

Once I tried simply explaining. Then pulling out a bar of soap, asking him if he knew what it tasted like? Looking into his eyes was like watching a lightbulb turn on inside his mind! (Most three yearolds have tasted soap!!!) Using his growing awareness, I explained that the reason I might have to resort to using soap within his mouth was to teach him a consequence for doing something that was very wrong, which if he did not learn as a child would cause much worse punishment as he grew older by those who did NOT love him. No soap was even needed.

Kids need to learn, as parents we need to learn how to help them learn. Sad when the only lesson the child learns is that they will suffer if they get caught.

You should be arrested and your children should be taken away from you - permanantly! Coercing your children and threatening them that way has certainly done permanant damage. You should be ashamed of yourself. You don't have a clue what you're doing. You should be rotting in a prison cell. Shame on you. Children are a gift from God, not someone you can abuse when you don't know what else to do with yourslef.

[Claire]

dear said:

caff said:

how does it work when the child doesn't fear spanking?

I don't mean to be rude, but if your child doesn't fear pain then you aren't beating him hard enough or he has a medical condition that doesn't allow him to feel pain. The prior is probably the case. I'm against spanking but I deal with children for a living and can tell you that ALL CHILDREN ===FEAR=== PAIN, and if you think they don't, you just haven't hit their threshold for tolerating it.

Please do not take this as an endorsement or advice to hit your child. I'm against all physical abuse including spanking and even think it should be outlawed.

oh, don't fear being rude, your comments won't harm me. ;D

i'll pass on experimentation with pain, though ... i actually don't want to find the level of pain that i suspect would be needed to make him take notice. i don't want to damage him and so far noone has convinced me that a little physical damage now will save him from being on the wrong side of society when he grows up. what I fear more is that he decides it's ok to do something as long as you're not caught. i want him to choose to behave well, not feel it's only a matter of external control forcing him.

[Deleted]

Is anyone here aware of any studies that have been done regarding a correlation between being spanked as a child and having conflict resolution skills and dealing with stress as an adult?

For 40 years now, I have managed a retail environment employing about 30 people. I have had to deal with all kinds of adult behavioral issues. One thing I've noticed is that adults today seem to be less capable of coping with difficult, stressful situations. I often wonder why.

I don't buy into the notion that life today is more stressful, busier, tougher, or more complicated than it used to be. (I think this idea comes from a lack of historical perspective.)

I know the way children are raised has shifted over the past couple decades and have often wondered if this doesn't have something to do with it.

I thought this thread might be a good place to toss the idea out.

Is a child who is spanked (within reason - no abuse) more likely to become a "tougher" adult - more capable of dealing with stress and conflict?

Any studies on the subject would be appreciated.

[Claire]

passerby said:

Is anyone here aware of any studies that have been done regarding a correlation between being spanked as a child and having conflict resolution skills and dealing with stress as an adult?

maybe you might as well look for a link with how schools no longer promote the "pass"/"fail" concept so strongly

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

passerby said:

Any studies on the subject would be appreciated.

Irwin A. Hyman, The Case Against Spanking: How to Discipline Your Child Without Hitting, (1997)

www.drrobertbrooks.com/writings/articles/0103.html

www.connectionparenting.com/parenting_articles/spanking.html

It is a start.

[Gently]

raok said:

It is a start.

Not to be rude but what kind of start is it?

I read both articles. I saw nothing that addressed the original question. Not even close IMO.

I liked passerby's question. I thought it was an interesting point. I'd like to see someone seriously address it.