Spanking

[Dawn]

It's pretty normal for little guys like that to go through a biting phase. They get over it.

I always use this one to get through the current phase..."this too shall pass!"

[LOL]

are said:

Cessna said:

Our son refused to do his homework so we took his XBox (in his room) away. He found where we hid it and put it back in his room.

So we took his Xbox away and his television and locked it in a cabinet in the garage. He broke into the cabinet and put it back in his room.

To keep us out of his room, he installed some kind of lock on his door so we couldn't get in.

So we switched off the circuit breaker to his room. He switched the circuit breaker back on and super-glued them or something because they won't budge now.

We won't spank him.

Any suggestions from here?

Here's an idea, go out and buy a white flag...

LOL

[Dawn]

Yeah, why don't they just spank him...

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

question said:

Hello Random Acts of Kindness -

Would you mind telling us what your definition of "discipline" is?

TIA

I would be glad to:

Action expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior. The action may be targeted at reinforcing a desired behavior or extinguishing an undesired behavior.

[common sense please]

raok said:

Kaylas said:

Wow! You really are all over the board on this one. You must be a politician the way you play with words all the time.

Why don't you give us an example.

Try this:

My 10 month old, Kayla, keeps pulling the table-cloth off the table. I've said no. She does it anyway. I've removed her from the room. She returns and does it anyway. I've tried distracting her. She does it anyway.

What do I do?

She is 10 months old. Get rid of the table cloth. Childproof your home.

spoken like a true beurocrat

how impractical can you get

anything short of a padded cell is not child-proof

[Dawn]

common said:

spoken like a true beurocrat

how impractical can you get

anything short of a padded cell is not child-proof

I wonder if any of you have ever heard of supervision?

[to biting childs parents]

Dawn said:

It's pretty normal for little guys like that to go through a biting phase. They get over it.

I always use this one to get through the current phase..."this too shall pass!"

Careful with the "just ignore it and it'll go away" advice.

Our boy goes to school with a young lad that has been expelled from school for biting. He bit one girl so bad that she had to have stitches. According to his teacher, he bit 9 students, some several times, over 4 weeks before something was finally done. I guess the stitches were the last straw.

Point is - ignoring it isn't responsible - and breaking the skin can be a health issue - for all involved.

I've heard parents recommend biting back. I wouldn't in this case.

You've probably talked yourself blue in the face and tried everything else. Maybe this calls for spanking.

Good Luck.

[well though]

Dawn said:

common said:

spoken like a true beurocrat

how impractical can you get

anything short of a padded cell is not child-proof

I wonder if any of you have ever heard of supervision?

well i for one have twins, there father is at work, I'm home alone with them, and I'm not about to tie them together. They can't both be in my sight 100% of the time.

[mrleo]

There are a number of things you could try: give the child an appropiate item to bite, tell him to bite it, then praise him when he bites it. Say "no" when he bites himself or other people, and ask instead for a kiss, so that he learns there is a difference between good biting and bad biting, then praise him when he gives you a kiss.

[Inspection]

Okay, you've asked for some proof. Here it is.

The anti-spankers are complaining...

They say the pro-spankers are condemning the anti-spankers and they say the anti-spankers ARE NOT condemning the pro-spankers. For example...

Reply 232: If you look back on this thread it is the advocates of spanking that have been casting dispersions on those who are against spanking.

Reply 239: Any condemnation was from the pro-spanking side.

Reply 239: Can you show a post where anyone on the anti-spanking side has condemned anyone?

Well, I say we should take a closer look!



Some of the anti-spanking folks here have avoided the word "spanking", opting instead for broader, more inflammatory words such as:

Abuse, Pain, Force, Hurting, Hitting, Beating, Anti-Christian, Bust, Cuff, Punch, and Violence


Some of the anti-spanking folks here have compared "spanking" to:

Abortion, Capital Punishment, Sexual Addiction, Nuking a City, Killing a Hostage, Kicking a Dog, Killing, and Spousal Abuse


Some of the anti-spanking folks here have shared some interesting quotes:

The inflection of pain is never necessary to teach anyone.

[Spanking] has been shown to be an ineffective teaching method.

I choose not to spank my child because I am trying to follow the leadership of Christ.

[Spanking is] striking out to [relieve] anger.

Being hurt as a sign of love sounds like a disorder.

[Spanking is] not a way to treat children.

[Some of us] do not believe anyone has a right to hurt another person for the purpose of teaching them a lesson.

[Spanking parents] confuse pain with love.

A good example and a kind voice will win out every time over pain and punishment.

Managing behavior with fear of punishment has never been a good solution.

Beating is wrong so I won't do it.

[Spanking teaches children that] hitting people is ok and violence works.

[Spanking] is [not] effective in accomplishing its goals.

Children do not have to be hurt to be taught.

I think there is always a better way [than spanking].


As if all this wasn't enough:

A parent posting here described a situation where they had used spanking and it had worked. In reply 112, an anti-spanking poster impugned, belittled, and mocked the parent's experience.

In reply 121, spanking parents were called incompetent by an anti-spanking poster who compared spanking parents to a poor workman who blames his failures on his tools.

A parent posting here described a situation where they had used spanking and it had worked. In reply 178, an anti-spanking poster replied rudely with, in part, "fine", "rumpy pumpy your kid up", and "see if we care"


Now be honest... Can the above behavior of the anti-spankers be characterized as anything other than condemnation?

This behavior speaks volumes. The fact is, many anti-spankers here don't think anyone should be allowed to spank their children. They just don't have the courage to come out and say it in so many words.

[Dawn]

to said:

Careful with the "just ignore it and it'll go away" advice.

Our boy goes to school with a young lad that has been expelled from school for biting. He bit one girl so bad that she had to have stitches. According to his teacher, he bit 9 students, some several times, over 4 weeks before something was finally done. I guess the stitches were the last straw.

Point is - ignoring it isn't responsible - and breaking the skin can be a health issue - for all involved.

I've heard parents recommend biting back. I wouldn't in this case.

You've probably talked yourself blue in the face and tried everything else. Maybe this calls for spanking.

Good Luck.

Well, I didn't say ignore it, and I didn't mean ignore it. I just meant to say don't drive yourself crazy over it. It's usually pretty easy to magage with a little gentle guidance.

[Biting]

mrleo said:

There are a number of things you could try: give the child an appropiate item to bite, tell him to bite it, then praise him when he bites it. Say "no" when he bites himself or other people, and ask instead for a kiss, so that he learns there is a difference between good biting and bad biting, then praise him when he gives you a kiss.

He's a very loving boy and this is where we were last week but we haven't made much progress. He just bit me again this morning, right after giving me a kiss. It's almost like a reflex or something. He knows he shouldn't bite. He knows it's wrong. I ask him why and get a blank stare. Very maddening.

[question2]

Random Acts of Kindness - your definition is to complicated for me cause I guess I'm just to dense - could you maybe simplify it or tell me or give me an example?

TIA

[mrleo]

Asking him why is probably reinforcing to him that you noticed that he did the wrong thing and letting him know you are frustrated (which is understandable, but is also a form of negative attention). Keep trying and be consistent. If/when he bites you, react with as little emotion as possible, and have an appropriate "chew toy" (or several) within reach around the house so that you can immediately offer him the substitute and immediately praise him for the appropriate behavior. If he's doing it because he knows he'll get a particular reaction, he'll stop doing it when he stops getting that reaction.

[omg i wanna scream]

Sorry to be so rude but the stupidity here is getting suffocating.

What the hell is wrong with you people?

He's a child. Not a dog. He knows better. He has chosen to disobey. Here's something else he knows - his parents are a couple of idiot pussies. If they hadn't taken spanking off the table as an option, they wouldn't be having this problem.

For God's sake, spank his ass and move on with life.

Sorry to be so rude but the stupidity here is getting suffocating.

[mrleo]

Why does the idea of people choosing to not use violence make you so angry that you want not only want to scream but you actually choose to insult complete strangers with profanity?

[dog trainer]

The fastest way I've discovered to stop a dog from biting is to grab its muzzle and bit it on the nose. In years of professionally training dogs, I've not had it fail.

Where did I learn it? Someone related that to stop a child from biting you grab them and bit them back, and that it works everytime also. Now I don't know about kids, (although it worked with one of ours who was a biter, stopped it cold) but it occurred to me that a dog is about the same "age" level as the child who needs to learn not to bite, so I just gave it a try. Now other trainers report success with it as well.

Now before any bleeding hearts jump all over me for cruelty, there is a vast difference between biting hard enough to create a "yip" and hard enough to cause injury. I love my animals, and people tell me I produce some of the best trained and social dogs they have ever seen.

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

to said:

raok said:

I have never said anything about child rearing practices other than to state there are alternatives to spanking.

You deny it, then do it, all within the same minute.

"There are alternatives to spanking."

Your quote says that spanking is unnecessary.

You've stated already that you think spanking is harmful.

If I were arguing a vegetarian standpoint, I would state that there are alternatives to eating meat and that eating meat is unnecessary.

This does not condemn the practice of eating meat, it just states the point that there are alternatives.

You've also stated that it is your duty to report spanking parents to the authorities.

This is incorrect and I don't believe I have ever stated this.
I am a mandated reporter in this state and am required by law to report and case of child abuse I see.

A summary of the statute:
A report is required when the mandated reporter has reasonable cause to believe that a child under 18 years of age is suffering physical or emotional injury resulting from abuse inflicted upon him which causes harm or substantial risk of harm to the child's health or welfare including sexual abuse, or from neglect, including malnutrition. Failure to file is a criminal offense.

It is not my rule.

This can only mean... (1) you think the observations and experiences of spanking parents are misguided and in error

Your logic is flawed.

You seem to think that you are the only person who has ever had to deal with a stubborn child and that the only solution is spanking. My experience had been that there are other methods. I don't think the parents are misguided but rather are following the path that their parents did.

and (2) you don't think other parents should be allowed to spank.

As long as it does not cross the line of child abuse parents can spank their children.

Prove it. Post the quotes. Post the reply numbers. I'm ready.

How about the post I am responding to? You state at the end that I have never had to deal with a stubborn child. This after an explanation of why I came to the conclusion that spanking does not solve the problem. Glad you were ready!

Hmmmm... I was hopeful you would actually address the issue. Others have. Why are ydou afraid to confront situations where real and present danger faces the child?

I have addressed the issue over and over.
The parent's job is to protect and teach the child. Take the case of the 10 month old child who was determined to pull on the table cloth. It is potentially dangerous if items on the table fall and hit the child.
One solution is to remove the tablecloth.
Another is to secure it.
Or you can spank the child. A 10 month old will quickly learn to avoid the pain and not touch the tablecloth.

Problem solved - but what is the lesson learned?

Sometimes the observer behavior may not be where the problem originates. A child may run into the street because that is a tried and tested way to get the parent's attention.

And I think its not always as cut and dried as you insist.

Again, you have discounted my experience. It has been my experience that is is usually even more cut and dried than I think. I tend to over complicate.

It was a stubborn child that made me re-evaluate the way I was raised and how I had anticipated raising my own children. Like you, I was very skeptical.

Given your position on the matter, I've concluded that you either (1) have never been met with the stubbornness that some parents have had to endure or (2) have at some point decided that you will have to tolerate certain degrees of unacceptable behavior because you simply cannot untrain the behavior.

Again, a discounting of my experience.

In your mind, if what I have related worked it is not possible that my child could have been as stubborn as yours because you don't think anything but spanking will work.

Behavior modification works. Unwanted behaviors can be lessened to the point of extinction.

[BC]

I am not an advocate of random spanking but when our 3yr old started biting we tried many things but nothing worked we even asked my wifes supervisor for Ideas (Wifey is an early child care home educator) The super visor gave us a couple of things to try but they didn't work. One day when he bit me I had a long talk with him about why we don't bite and said I will show you how it hurts and so I smacked his leg two quick smacks. I don't think it hurt him much but the look of shock on his face was very evident. we have only had him bite once since then.

We have found with children in general that frustration, hunger and tiredness are the three main causes of miss behaviour and if you keep those three at bay then you are more than halfway there. Occassionally children are just brats for the sake of being brats but on the whole there is an underlying reason for their behaviour.

Most parants wont like to hear it but a lot of bad behaviour is caused by the parents them selves. Not spending time with their children, not learning what challenges or motivates their children to keep them interested, not keeping to a routine and having late nights not feeding them regular or the right foods etc etc. Children learn from their parents before anyone else and look up to them for love care encouragement etc so if that is missing of course they will get frustrated.

We have also found that if a child has ADHD/ADHT/ADD/Autistic or any of the related disorders they become frustrated and can come accross as being just naughty kids.

[shadow=red,left,300]Regards BC[/shadow]

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

well said:

Dawn said:

I wonder if any of you have ever heard of supervision?

well i for one have twins, there father is at work, I'm home alone with them, and I'm not about to tie them together. They can't both be in my sight 100% of the time.

Twins - that's a hand full.

But let's say there is a closet with cleaning supplies. You see the twins go into the closet. So you spank them.

Would you then feel comfortable leaving them in the room and trust that the spanking will prevent them from going into the closet?

[hell o leo]

mrleo said:

Why does the idea of people choosing to not use violence make you so angry that you want not only want to scream but you actually choose to insult complete strangers with profanity?

For the same reason that you and people like you refuse to acknowledge that spanking is a valid choice in raising children that parents can employ if they so choose?

We both believe in pushing our views on others!

I did it (with my ranting tirade after losing my cool at the foolishness here).

You did too (or you wouldn't have chosen an inflammatory word like violence).

[mrleo]

If speed is the goal then go ahead and bite your dog - actually, that's how a puppy raised in a litter by its mother would naturally learn that biting hurts and what it means in terms of dog-speak.

But since the issue at hand is parenting/training humans, and not dogs (and incidentally, I used the slower, non-biting method with my dog when she was a puppy and she learned quickly enough to suit me), I would advocate patience and perseverance.

[Hey Random]

Random Acts...

you say you are required to report abuse

do you report spanking parents as abuse?

[WHY]

mrleo said:

Why does the idea of people choosing to not use violence make you so angry that you want not only want to scream but you actually choose to insult complete strangers with profanity?

Why does the idea of people choosing to spank provoke you to accuse them of VIOLENCE?

[mrleo]

I didn't accuse anyone of using violence. I was talking about not using violence.

But what word/phrase do you prefer I use so that you can control your anger (since I'm apparently responsible for your feelings)? Force? Hitting? Inflicting pain?

[about random]

Hey said:

Random Acts...

you say you are required to report abuse

do you report spanking parents as abuse?

He'll play games with this one, as always.

You *may* have better luck by asking this way:

You say you are required to report abuse.

(1) How do you define ABUSE?
(2) Do you report as ABUSE, parents who spank their children?

[elementary]

mrleo said:

I didn't accuse anyone of using violence. I was talking about not using violence.

You still likened spanking to violence. "Using" or "Not using" is irrelevent. You've made my point. Thank you.

But what word/phrase do you prefer I use so that you can control your anger (since I'm apparently responsible for your feelings)? Force? Hitting? Inflicting pain?

How about... oh, I don't know... let's say...

SPANKING

Was that really hard? It is what this thread is about, after all.

[Random Acts 0f Kindness]

question2 said:

Random Acts of Kindness - your definition is to complicated for me cause I guess I'm just to dense - could you maybe simplify it or tell me or give me an example?

TIA

Sorry about that.
I said I viewed discipline as:
Action expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior. The action may be targeted at reinforcing a desired behavior or extinguishing an undesired behavior.

Discipline, the verb in the context of raising children, is something you do to modify your child's behavior.

There are times when the best way to eliminate unwanted behavior is to do nothing; for example a child having a temper tantrum.
(http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/tantrum/HQ01622)