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Post by Reviewing on Apr 3, 2006 13:37:04 GMT -5
I have been reviewing the issue of works and the appearance of self righteous of the F&W. As a member of that fellowship I find many things which I have fault with.
They are of course the issue of Jesus being part of the God head and that respect being God Incarnate ( I believe); The issue of being saved by Grace and not by works (I believe) ; The issues of legalisms (I do not agree)' and the issue of exclusiveness( I do not agree).
Of these one topic I have been reviewing is this issue of self- righteousness as presented in appearance and avoidance of so called worldly things which of course overlaps many of the above issues. With my study I have reviewed in depth the KJV and NIV including the Blue Letter. My concern deals with the transformation of a believer. Without getting into a debate on scripture I would like to humbly add my input to this thinking.
I would like to pose some questions and supposition. (put off the old man....renewing of the mind...cleaning out the vessel) are in the line of this discussion.
It is clear from scripture that being born again and accepting salvation will not stop us from sinning. We sin because we exist in the carnal nature of the flesh. However our mind should exist in the spiritual nature. That is I suppose why Paul spoke so much in Chpt 7 of romans on this very subject. Now here we are.
So a man or a women is touched by the Holy Spirit and is moved to accept that love Gift of the Father in Jesus. In doing so they (whom ever) are so moved to want to make some changes in life behavior because they are so happy and elated in this Spirit which is working in them. In this quest to change and transform from the old man to the new Spiritual man they find the warfare hard and not attainable in the sense they are still trapped in the carnal body.
Question: Is it or would it be wrong to try and avoid things which the old man wanted such that they might fight the battle with less interference? How can this type of avoidance be wrong?
For instance, worker or Friend who decide that TV is out because there is so much garbage which is counter to a Spiritual health and they know they are to weak. They simply would rather not watch it.
Should we judge them if they feel that it can be a hindrance?
Or what of female friends who see that dressing in the strict 2x2 code helps keep them (according to their mind) in a Demure or modest manner.
I think you get my questions.
Has it ever been considered that (they choose these things for their own control)? (Not others)
Not that I agree that they should in your face to others. That I think is wrong. But, I can see where one would want to share things which works for them. I think we as new creatures in Jesus must try to make a consistent change in all manner of our lives.
So then in the final analysis I can say to the worker who visits, yes I have a TV and yes I watch much garbage but do you understand that the sin is in my mind and not the TV. Please do not judge me--- I war withing my members but I am working in the renewing of my mind though Jesus Christ.
And I don't think we should judge them who choose to avoid these things which are counter to growth in the spiritual sense.
How can you maintain the peace of the HOLY SPIRIT if you are consistently looking at movies with adultery, pornography, satan worship and such. Of late it seems that every show I watch has some of these themes in them. Even my favorite "The Simpson's" has this junk in it now.
I don't want to judge my brothers and sisters for their choices. It is there right. I am just saying that maybe there is a deeper reason for them to want to follow these codes. We are all weak. The problem is that many have went form the inner self to thinking that it is a trait which should be followed by all who are sincere and thus legalisms.
Well are they really such bad traits for Christians who are in continued change and transformation?
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Post by Simple on Apr 3, 2006 16:21:50 GMT -5
I have been reviewing the issue of works and the appearance of self righteous of the F&W. As a member of that fellowship I find many things which I have fault with. They are of course the issue of Jesus being part of the God head and that respect being God Incarnate ( I believe); The issue of being saved by Grace and not by works (I believe) ; The issues of legalisms (I do not agree)' and the issue of exclusiveness( I do not agree). Of these one topic I have been reviewing is this issue of self- righteousness as presented in appearance and avoidance of so called worldly things which of course overlaps many of the above issues. With my study I have reviewed in depth the KJV and NIV including the Blue Letter. My concern deals with the transformation of a believer. Without getting into a debate on scripture I would like to humbly add my input to this thinking. I would like to pose some questions and supposition. (put off the old man....renewing of the mind...cleaning out the vessel) are in the line of this discussion. It is clear from scripture that being born again and accepting salvation will not stop us from sinning. We sin because we exist in the carnal nature of the flesh. However our mind should exist in the spiritual nature. That is I suppose why Paul spoke so much in Chpt 7 of romans on this very subject. Now here we are. So a man or a women is touched by the Holy Spirit and is moved to accept that love Gift of the Father in Jesus. In doing so they (whom ever) are so moved to want to make some changes in life behavior because they are so happy and elated in this Spirit which is working in them. In this quest to change and transform from the old man to the new Spiritual man they find the warfare hard and not attainable in the sense they are still trapped in the carnal body. Question: Is it or would it be wrong to try and avoid things which the old man wanted such that they might fight the battle with less interference? How can this type of avoidance be wrong? For instance, worker or Friend who decide that TV is out because there is so much garbage which is counter to a Spiritual health and they know they are to weak. They simply would rather not watch it. Should we judge them if they feel that it can be a hindrance? Or what of female friends who see that dressing in the strict 2x2 code helps keep them (according to their mind) in a Demure or modest manner. I think you get my questions. Has it ever been considered that (they choose these things for their own control)? (Not others) Not that I agree that they should in your face to others. That I think is wrong. But, I can see where one would want to share things which works for them. I think we as new creatures in Jesus must try to make a consistent change in all manner of our lives. So then in the final analysis I can say to the worker who visits, yes I have a TV and yes I watch much garbage but do you understand that the sin is in my mind and not the TV. Please do not judge me--- I war withing my members but I am working in the renewing of my mind though Jesus Christ. And I don't think we should judge them who choose to avoid these things which are counter to growth in the spiritual sense. How can you maintain the peace of the HOLY SPIRIT if you are consistently looking at movies with adultery, pornography, satan worship and such. Of late it seems that every show I watch has some of these themes in them. Even my favorite "The Simpson's" has this junk in it now. I don't want to judge my brothers and sisters for their choices. It is there right. I am just saying that maybe there is a deeper reason for them to want to follow these codes. We are all weak. The problem is that many have went form the inner self to thinking that it is a trait which should be followed by all who are sincere and thus legalisms. Well are they really such bad traits for Christians who are in continued change and transformation? Thanks for saying something real and honest. I was so blind when the Holy Ghost first spoke to me. I could never imagine what a joy it was to have someone leading and encouraging me from within. Someone who could lead me to the Truth. (Spiritually) The flesh did have to be crucified though. I had to come to confront these "strongholds" in myself to get free of them. Pride Envy Jealousy Lust Fear of what people think of me Fear of loving someone who does not love me Fear of humiliation Fear of rejection. Fear of being a loser Fear of being wrong Fear of being insignificant Fear of death Once seeing that fear is of the flesh and Love is of God Fear of people lost its grip on me. The Holy Ghost leads us to these things so we can face them and see what they are from the other side. If we seek the Truth we will have to face these kinds of human flesh things that limit us. Facing ourselves thats what we all like to avoid. I was Godless I was a God unto myself I judged people so superficially I was very superficial I called out to God and he showed me he could be trusted and his promises are pure gold treasures he gives us as we follow his son (spiritually) Put him first by faith We are like grains of sand on a beach and God reaches out to us. Our strongholds must come down............... God can be overwhelming and God can be gentle. Why settle for less?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2006 16:37:03 GMT -5
"Not that I agree that they should in your face to others. That I think is wrong. But, I can see where one would want to share things which works for them. I think we as new creatures in Jesus must try to make a consistent change in all manner of our lives."
You mentioned Romans 7, 8 falls into this topic as well. What I find most interesting avout these two chapters is that everytime Paul has the opportunity, and remember this is inspired by the holy Spirit, to write out a list of what the "spirit" person should be doing, he doesnt. At least twice in this section there are places where one might expcet to see some kind of list, but its not there.
The reason it isn't there is because if there was a list, we would try to find a way around it, and/or start to use adherence to the list as our righteousness standard.
paul states that the law was like a magnifying glass for sin. It brought it all into the open, showed it';s dominance in our lives. Only through jesus is sin death and the grave defeated. only through Jesus do we have acceptance before God.
If we think that somehow we make ourselves acceptable to God through our actions or inactions, we have not understood grace correctly, and have not been regenerated.
Karl
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BC
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Post by BC on Apr 3, 2006 16:39:17 GMT -5
Good thoughts and a good post, thanks. I agree that as Individuals we have an individual service to God and therefore some things that one finds no harm in another may perceive to be a threat to their peace of mind. We all have different weaknesses and tolerances and need to make individual choices on what we do or allow in our home or life, as only God and us know these points. I can understand to a point where the legalisms have come in , and that is that someone in their human wisdom felt that there was a need to impose rules so that the lowest denominator was protected. In other words put rules in place so those of more impressionable mind would not be subjected to these things. Society has done this all through history, imposed sometimes seemingly pedantic and restrictive laws and rules so as to keep all of society in the same box and any who step out of that box will become immediately noticeable to those around.(unless they keep those things hidden) This is peer pressure ruling. We also see it working the other way where if one wants to be conservative then again they are going to stand out.
So we see that rules, laws and regulation are all human forms of control for which ever society we live or what ever religion or group we belong to. They ALL have these in place, some to a greater and some to a lesser degree.
My point to all this is that rules and regulations are not of God/Christ and shouldn't be used for fear induced conformity but that individuals should make decisions that are right for their own salvation.
Does this make it wrong to express the desire that those in your fellowship restrict certain things in the hope that it will help them to maintain the fruits of the spirit in their life? No I believe not but to try and impose them and through fear or peer pressure is to try and override the guidance of the spirit and this becomes legalism. Living within a strict regime of rules imposed by man to override the guidance of our God. The bible says to exercise our conscience, how can we do that if it hasn't got the room or freedom to be exercised because we are trying to live by the law imposed by other men?
Freedom of the soul is only gained when we cast off the shackles of imposition by men and allow the spirit of God to be our guide and tutor.
[shadow=red,left,300]Regards BC[/shadow]
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Post by iinnocentq on Apr 3, 2006 17:08:59 GMT -5
If we think that somehow we make ourselves acceptable to God through our actions or inactions, we have not understood grace correctly, and have not been regenerated.
That makes sense... That would mean that God is the one that renews us.
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Post by God should on Apr 3, 2006 17:29:34 GMT -5
God should also be the one who decides what we have in our homes, in our lives, what we wear, what we do and say. It is only when we relinqush any owner ship of our lives to God and let Him do His work then we will understand His grace to us and His grace will abound in us if we are controled by His Spirit. We must be a Holy Spirit guided people or we are none of His. If God has moved a people to not have..........in their lives why is there so much of a question about it? The answer is human nature wanting it's say. Consider the tree that satan offered Eve. It was not his tree, it was God's and God gave strict instruction concerning that tree. He also gave them instruction of what they were to partake of, and there is no difference for His people today. We either accept God's mind and will, or satans. satan is still offering that tree today and man is wholeheartedly accepting it.
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Post by Simple on Apr 3, 2006 17:38:21 GMT -5
God should also be the one who decides what we have in our homes, in our lives, what we wear, what we do and say. It is only when we relinqush any owner ship of our lives to God and let Him do His work then we will understand His grace to us and His grace will abound in us if we are controled by His Spirit. We must be a Holy Spirit guided people or we are none of His. If God has moved a people to not have..........in their lives why is there so much of a question about it? The answer is human nature wanting it's say. Consider the tree that satan offered Eve. It was not his tree, it was God's and God gave strict instruction concerning that tree. He also gave them instruction of what they were to partake of, and there is no difference for His people today. We either accept God's mind and will, or satans. satan is still offering that tree today and man is wholeheartedly accepting it. Should we turn ourselves over to the vain liars, and decievers? If you have a ralationship with God did you ask him? If you were born into the KKK would you hate nonwhites and Jews cause thats what they taught you. Do you take any responsibility for yourself or do you just take orders? The biggest mistake you can make is not having a relationship with Jesus Christ, he will lead you and teach you. Don't settle for someone else's interpetations get your own............
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Post by so on Apr 3, 2006 17:57:22 GMT -5
God should also be the one who decides what we have in our homes, in our lives, what we wear, what we do and say. It is only when we relinqush any owner ship of our lives to God and let Him do His work then we will understand His grace to us and His grace will abound in us if we are controled by His Spirit. We must be a Holy Spirit guided people or we are none of His. If God has moved a people to not have..........in their lives why is there so much of a question about it? The answer is human nature wanting it's say. Consider the tree that satan offered Eve. It was not his tree, it was God's and God gave strict instruction concerning that tree. He also gave them instruction of what they were to partake of, and there is no difference for His people today. We either accept God's mind and will, or satans. satan is still offering that tree today and man is wholeheartedly accepting it. Should we turn ourselves over to the vain liars, and decievers? If you have a ralationship with God did you ask him? If you were born into the KKK would you hate nonwhites and Jews cause thats what they taught you. Do you take any responsibility for yourself or do you just take orders? The biggest mistake you can make is not having a relationship with Jesus Christ, he will lead you and teach you. Don't settle for someone else's interpetations get your own............ so according to you what i stated is not showing how to have a relationship with Jesus Christ? look at Jesus's relationship with His Father and read what He says, I do always the things that please the Father. so if pleasing the Father is not doing those things that please Him which you seem to suggest the we are all screwed.
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Post by Simple on Apr 3, 2006 18:55:08 GMT -5
Should we turn ourselves over to the vain liars, and decievers? If you have a ralationship with God did you ask him? If you were born into the KKK would you hate nonwhites and Jews cause thats what they taught you. Do you take any responsibility for yourself or do you just take orders? The biggest mistake you can make is not having a relationship with Jesus Christ, he will lead you and teach you. Don't settle for someone else's interpetations get your own............ so according to you what i stated is not showing how to have a relationship with Jesus Christ? look at Jesus's relationship with His Father and read what He says, I do always the things that please the Father. so if pleasing the Father is not doing those things that please Him which you seem to suggest the we are all screwed. What about avoiding vain emulations? Has you belief made you fruitful?
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Post by Reviewing on Apr 3, 2006 22:10:20 GMT -5
Here is what I am talking about. I like these verses because it is direct to the point.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
So then if we understand that our inner self (mind) is delighting in the love of God yet our carnal nature is waging a war in our member we know that we are not alone. Thanks be to God-thorugh Jesus Christ our Lord that we are rescued from this death.
What a wretched man I am. Help me to turn away from those things which cause me spiritual unrest?
Is this a wrong thing to ask for? Since we have Jesus to rescue us, does this mean that we are free to do what ever we want? I am not talking about legalism. I am talking about the continual transformation through the Spirit directing us to make changes in our life. If we claim Jesus do we worship Satan--God forbid. If we say we have not sin we lie. If we accept our state and accept the Give of salvation we should be move to make changes in our lifes. Is this not true?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2006 22:23:37 GMT -5
"What a wretched man I am. Help me to turn away from those things which cause me spiritual unrest?
Is this a wrong thing to ask for? "
Paul, under the inspiration of God says, Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Period.
As he cpnytinues in ch 8, he never tells us what things are "spirit" and which are "flesh". This makes a lot of sense based on what he has just taught us about the Law, and the fact that we are integrated beings.
The gnostics taught that flesh was bad, and the spirit was good- they took it so far as to say that it didn't matter what the body did- the spirit would remain untainted, and therefore, good.
Paul has none of that. He realizes that He is engaged in what appears to be a losing struggle- in fact he knows that he will not win but...
Rom 7:24-8:15 (24) Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? (25) Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. (1) There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. (3) For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, (4) in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (5) For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. (6) To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. (7) For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (8) Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (10) But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (11) If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. (12) So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. (13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (14) For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. (15) For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"
It is Jesus Only! Why we engage the struggle is key. Do we do it to become acceptable to God? If so, then what value was Christ's sacrifice?
Do we engage in it to finally be sinless? Then we are supplying our own righteousness
Do we engage in it because we are new creations, throwing off the old man, because it is now natural for regenerated persons to do so? Yes!! Not to gain God's favor, not to gain or earn, or keep salvation, but because we are new creations! We are then being who we are- thanks be to God who has freed us through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior!
Karl
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Post by HRL on Apr 3, 2006 23:28:46 GMT -5
I have been reviewing the issue of works and the appearance of self righteous of the F&W. As a member of that fellowship I find many things which I have fault with. They are of course the issue of Jesus being part of the God head and that respect being God Incarnate ( I believe); The issue of being saved by Grace and not by works (I believe) ; The issues of legalisms (I do not agree)' and the issue of exclusiveness( I do not agree). Of these one topic I have been reviewing is this issue of self- righteousness as presented in appearance and avoidance of so called worldly things which of course overlaps many of the above issues. With my study I have reviewed in depth the KJV and NIV including the Blue Letter. My concern deals with the transformation of a believer. Without getting into a debate on scripture I would like to humbly add my input to this thinking. I would like to pose some questions and supposition. (put off the old man....renewing of the mind...cleaning out the vessel) are in the line of this discussion. It is clear from scripture that being born again and accepting salvation will not stop us from sinning. We sin because we exist in the carnal nature of the flesh. However our mind should exist in the spiritual nature. That is I suppose why Paul spoke so much in Chpt 7 of romans on this very subject. Now here we are. So a man or a women is touched by the Holy Spirit and is moved to accept that love Gift of the Father in Jesus. In doing so they (whom ever) are so moved to want to make some changes in life behavior because they are so happy and elated in this Spirit which is working in them. In this quest to change and transform from the old man to the new Spiritual man they find the warfare hard and not attainable in the sense they are still trapped in the carnal body. Question: Is it or would it be wrong to try and avoid things which the old man wanted such that they might fight the battle with less interference? How can this type of avoidance be wrong? For instance, worker or Friend who decide that TV is out because there is so much garbage which is counter to a Spiritual health and they know they are to weak. They simply would rather not watch it. Should we judge them if they feel that it can be a hindrance? Or what of female friends who see that dressing in the strict 2x2 code helps keep them (according to their mind) in a Demure or modest manner. I think you get my questions. Has it ever been considered that (they choose these things for their own control)? (Not others) Not that I agree that they should in your face to others. That I think is wrong. But, I can see where one would want to share things which works for them. I think we as new creatures in Jesus must try to make a consistent change in all manner of our lives. So then in the final analysis I can say to the worker who visits, yes I have a TV and yes I watch much garbage but do you understand that the sin is in my mind and not the TV. Please do not judge me--- I war withing my members but I am working in the renewing of my mind though Jesus Christ. And I don't think we should judge them who choose to avoid these things which are counter to growth in the spiritual sense. How can you maintain the peace of the HOLY SPIRIT if you are consistently looking at movies with adultery, pornography, satan worship and such. Of late it seems that every show I watch has some of these themes in them. Even my favorite "The Simpson's" has this junk in it now. I don't want to judge my brothers and sisters for their choices. It is there right. I am just saying that maybe there is a deeper reason for them to want to follow these codes. We are all weak. The problem is that many have went form the inner self to thinking that it is a trait which should be followed by all who are sincere and thus legalisms. Well are they really such bad traits for Christians who are in continued change and transformation? This is a fantastic post that PROVOKES thoughts and inspiration that needs more reviewing, MEDITATION, AND attention, indeed...
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Post by quest on Apr 4, 2006 0:00:33 GMT -5
I have been reviewing the issue of works and the appearance of self righteous of the F&W. As a member of that fellowship I find many things which I have fault with. They are of course the issue of Jesus being part of the God head and that respect being God Incarnate ( I believe); The issue of being saved by Grace and not by works (I believe) ; The issues of legalisms (I do not agree)' and the issue of exclusiveness( I do not agree). Of these one topic I have been reviewing is this issue of self- righteousness as presented in appearance and avoidance of so called worldly things which of course overlaps many of the above issues. With my study I have reviewed in depth the KJV and NIV including the Blue Letter. My concern deals with the transformation of a believer. Without getting into a debate on scripture I would like to humbly add my input to this thinking. I would like to pose some questions and supposition. (put off the old man....renewing of the mind...cleaning out the vessel) are in the line of this discussion. It is clear from scripture that being born again and accepting salvation will not stop us from sinning. We sin because we exist in the carnal nature of the flesh. However our mind should exist in the spiritual nature. That is I suppose why Paul spoke so much in Chpt 7 of romans on this very subject. Now here we are. So a man or a women is touched by the Holy Spirit and is moved to accept that love Gift of the Father in Jesus. In doing so they (whom ever) are so moved to want to make some changes in life behavior because they are so happy and elated in this Spirit which is working in them. In this quest to change and transform from the old man to the new Spiritual man they find the warfare hard and not attainable in the sense they are still trapped in the carnal body. Question: Is it or would it be wrong to try and avoid things which the old man wanted such that they might fight the battle with less interference? How can this type of avoidance be wrong? For instance, worker or Friend who decide that TV is out because there is so much garbage which is counter to a Spiritual health and they know they are to weak. They simply would rather not watch it. Should we judge them if they feel that it can be a hindrance? Or what of female friends who see that dressing in the strict 2x2 code helps keep them (according to their mind) in a Demure or modest manner. I think you get my questions. Has it ever been considered that (they choose these things for their own control)? (Not others) Not that I agree that they should in your face to others. That I think is wrong. But, I can see where one would want to share things which works for them. I think we as new creatures in Jesus must try to make a consistent change in all manner of our lives. So then in the final analysis I can say to the worker who visits, yes I have a TV and yes I watch much garbage but do you understand that the sin is in my mind and not the TV. Please do not judge me--- I war withing my members but I am working in the renewing of my mind though Jesus Christ. And I don't think we should judge them who choose to avoid these things which are counter to growth in the spiritual sense. How can you maintain the peace of the HOLY SPIRIT if you are consistently looking at movies with adultery, pornography, satan worship and such. Of late it seems that every show I watch has some of these themes in them. Even my favorite "The Simpson's" has this junk in it now. I don't want to judge my brothers and sisters for their choices. It is there right. I am just saying that maybe there is a deeper reason for them to want to follow these codes. We are all weak. The problem is that many have went form the inner self to thinking that it is a trait which should be followed by all who are sincere and thus legalisms. Well are they really such bad traits for Christians who are in continued change and transformation? This is a fantastic post that PROVOKES thoughts and inspiration that needs more reviewing, MEDITATION, AND attention, indeed... Indeed, awesome analysis of insights to empathizing with the convictions of others, so that we may learn, and ponder from.
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Post by Reviewing on Apr 4, 2006 8:07:40 GMT -5
"What a wretched man I am. Help me to turn away from those things which cause me spiritual unrest? Is this a wrong thing to ask for? " Paul, under the inspiration of God says, Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Period. As he cpnytinues in ch 8, he never tells us what things are "spirit" and which are "flesh". This makes a lot of sense based on what he has just taught us about the Law, and the fact that we are integrated beings. The gnostics taught that flesh was bad, and the spirit was good- they took it so far as to say that it didn't matter what the body did- the spirit would remain untainted, and therefore, good. Paul has none of that. He realizes that He is engaged in what appears to be a losing struggle- in fact he knows that he will not win but... Rom 7:24-8:15 (24) Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? (25) Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. (1) There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. (3) For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, (4) in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (5) For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. (6) To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. (7) For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (8) Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (10) But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (11) If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. (12) So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. (13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (14) For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. (15) For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" It is Jesus Only! Why we engage the struggle is key. Do we do it to become acceptable to God? If so, then what value was Christ's sacrifice? Do we engage in it to finally be sinless? Then we are supplying our own righteousness Do we engage in it because we are new creations, throwing off the old man, because it is now natural for regenerated persons to do so? Yes!! Not to gain God's favor, not to gain or earn, or keep salvation, but because we are new creations! We are then being who we are- thanks be to God who has freed us through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior! Karl Do we engage in it because we are new creations, throwing off the old man, because it is now natural for regenerated persons to do so? Yes!! Not to gain God's favor, not to gain or earn, or keep salvation, but because we are new creations! We are then being who we are- thanks be to God who has freed us through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior!Karl-I think you and I have no disagreement. What a wretched man I am. Help me to turn away from those things which cause me spiritual unrest? Is this a wrong thing to ask for? Since we have Jesus to rescue us, does this mean that we are free to do what ever we want? I am not talking about legalism. I am talking about the continual transformation through the Spirit directing us to make changes in our life. If we claim Jesus do we worship Satan--God forbid. If we say we have not sin we lie. If we accept our state and accept the Gift of salvation we should be moved to make changes in our lifes. Is this not true? Yes we engage in the struggle because we are regenerated in Christ.
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Post by guest 4 on Apr 4, 2006 8:22:55 GMT -5
"Question: Is it or would it be wrong to try and avoid things which the old man wanted such that they might fight the battle with less interference? How can this type of avoidance be wrong?
For instance, worker or Friend who decide that TV is out because there is so much garbage which is counter to a Spiritual health and they know they are to weak. They simply would rather not watch it.
Should we judge them if they feel that it can be a hindrance?
Or what of female friends who see that dressing in the strict 2x2 code helps keep them (according to their mind) in a Demure or modest manner.
I think you get my questions.
Has it ever been considered that (they choose these things for their own control)? (Not others) " end quote
Is it limited to the female friends and worker and Friends (as mentioned in the above quote) that feel God leading them into dresses and no tv? I see numbers of Godly people rejecting and limiting tv, limiting outside exposure of worldly influences in their homes, women dressing modestly-eschewing trousers and red.
I read this post and feel that there is something, I can't quite put my finger on it, something like-exclusivity?
Scripture does not limit to only the workers and friends.
If I mis-read the intent of the original poster, I sincerely apologize.
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Post by lacpastorunplugged on Apr 4, 2006 8:48:07 GMT -5
Conformity to artificial standards to be "accepted" by other "believers" becomes the issue. Once I understand correctly, God's acceptance of me through His grace- His provision, His "work", then I experience freedom to be really human, as He intended. We DO live in now and not yet. Positionally righteous, because the Judge has already decided in our favor, yet struggling with sin, until the end comes, and the extent of our regeneration is realized.
When we decide to band to gather ONLY with those who are like us, we miss our Commission to go into all the world, to go into the dark places, and bring the Light into them. Not just a few who are "qualified" , or sent, all believers are to be the Light, as they go through their part of the world.
When we decide to band to gather ONLY with those who are like us we have not understood grace correctly, and are judging on the outside appearance, the very thing that we are told not to do.
We do not have license to do what we want. We are bondslaves of God (Jesus)- but children of God as well. When we set ourselves so apart from this world that we are uncomfortable being honest and open, verbal, and authentic with those who are in it, we betray our loyalty. Our loyalty then is to law, not the Savior who went into the dark places and tells us to follow Him.
It is not enough to send missionaries, we are to each one, be a living, verbal, honest, authentic, missionary follower of the King in every aspect of our lives. We are to be engaged in the renewing work of God in everything that we do. We have to allow each the freedom to be what God has enabled, and is calling them to be- and leave the final judgments, for conviction or acquittal, for reward or loss, to Him.
Karl
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Post by lacpastorunplugged on Apr 4, 2006 8:48:50 GMT -5
Sorry for the font size- I am experimenting...
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Post by HRL on Apr 4, 2006 11:47:46 GMT -5
QUOTE: Of these one topic I have been reviewing is this issue of self- righteousness as presented in appearance and avoidance of so called worldly things which of course overlaps many of the above issues. With my study I have reviewed in depth the KJV and NIV including the Blue Letter. My concern deals with the transformation of a believer. Without getting into a debate on scripture I would like to humbly add my input to this thinking. I think we can purposefully AVOID 'things'.....meaning, it's not always Spirit led, with the idea that in avoiding certain things, we will be more pure. While there may some truth to that; I have to wonder if we avoid things because of our own ideas/will power of what is right/wrong or do we just one day find ourselves having a lack of DESIRE to be around the same things we did before receiving the Love of Jesus into our lives completely? QUOTE: It is clear from scripture that being born again and accepting salvation will not stop us from sinning. We sin because we exist in the carnal nature of the flesh. However our mind should exist in the spiritual nature. That is I suppose why Paul spoke so much in Chpt 7 of romans on this very subject. Now here we are.Wow. This is HUGE. I mean;;yeah, we have a sinful nature; that's a given. So how do we deal with it? Hmm. Yeah, I think Paul was trying to address this in depth ..... How does one walk a spiritual life pleasing to God, yet still exist in the flesh? We need the power of God to help us....and He will.......I firmly believe in that. QUOTE: So a man or a women is touched by the Holy Spirit and is moved to accept that love Gift of the Father in Jesus. In doing so they (whom ever) are so moved to want to make some changes in life behavior because they are so happy and elated in this Spirit which is working in them. In this quest to change and transform from the old man to the new Spiritual man they find the warfare hard and not attainable in the sense they are still trapped in the carnal body.Well, the wonder of it all is that God will help us in this spiritual warfare....that is a miracle that I have experienced and have witnessed.......I've seen God's power and armour at work;;;and one of the greatest tools/weapons we have is prayer...it is a mighty source of power.....AND something happens when one is given new spiritual life; when one is filled with the Holy Spirit there is little room for anything else.....quite literally........one is filled to overflowing capacity; therefore, there is no room for ANYTHING else to be entertained, so to speak....QUOTE: Question: Is it or would it be wrong to try and avoid things which the old man wanted such that they might fight the battle with less interference? How can this type of avoidance be wrong?Nope, it is in NOT WRONG....but I don't see it as AVOIDANCE, more just as not happening.......meaning::there is just NO DESIRE to do certain things anymore, and therefore, you just don't do them......it's pretty simple in that regard. I see and hear judgemental comments toward the 'friends' because they don't do this and they don't do that.........well..........perhaps that is because they have no desire to do certain things........NOT because they ARE REQUIRED For instance, worker or Friend who decide that TV is out because there is so much garbage which is counter to a Spiritual health and they know they are to weak. They simply would rather not watch it. Should we judge them if they feel that it can be a hindrance? Or what of female friends who see that dressing in the strict 2x2 code helps keep them (according to their mind) in a Demure or modest manner. I think you get my questions. Has it ever been considered that (they choose these things for their own control)? (Not others) Not that I agree that they should in your face to others. That I think is wrong. But, I can see where one would want to share things which works for them. I think we as new creatures in Jesus must try to make a consistent change in all manner of our lives. So then in the final analysis I can say to the worker who visits, yes I have a TV and yes I watch much garbage but do you understand that the sin is in my mind and not the TV. Please do not judge me--- I war withing my members but I am working in the renewing of my mind though Jesus Christ. And I don't think we should judge them who choose to avoid these things which are counter to growth in the spiritual sense. How can you maintain the peace of the HOLY SPIRIT if you are consistently looking at movies with adultery, pornography, satan worship and such. Of late it seems that every show I watch has some of these themes in them. Even my favorite "The Simpson's" has this junk in it now. I don't want to judge my brothers and sisters for their choices. It is there right. I am just saying that maybe there is a deeper reason for them to want to follow these codes. We are all weak. The problem is that many have went form the inner self to thinking that it is a trait which should be followed by all who are sincere and thus legalisms. Well are they really such bad traits for Christians who are in continued change and transformation?
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Post by HRL more on Apr 4, 2006 12:32:18 GMT -5
QUOTE: Should we judge them if they feel that it can be a hindrance?
Or what of female friends who see that dressing in the strict 2x2 code helps keep them (according to their mind) in a Demure or modest manner.
Has it ever been considered that (they choose these things for their own control)? (Not others) HRL: Wow. You ask some great questions. The thought of putting on a certain outward appearance to help control certain behaviours, ;;hmmm;; I guess in going outside the box, it certainly is possible that dressing modestly might impact your activities. {?} But I need to add here that even though professing females wear dresses to meetings, many don't wear them at home and for other activities. Also, there are a lot of provocative and alluring types of dresses to be worn, that are not that modest....I don't think all the women stick to a strictly modest dress code. Many wear fancy~~schmancy shoes and almost lingerie type skirts and dresses, so it's not really all that strict, which is quite alright, IMO, since we are not to judge others by their outward appearance, either way. ;;:: There are many women in the 'world' who wear baggy clothes all the time to cover up....their femininity.....and there are those who dress to the nines to flaunt it. I think you'll find both types in all churches and society realms. I think there is a happy medium; but giving God first place is the KEY. After that, 'things' will fall into place like the pieces of a puzzle;; HOWEVER;; it doesn't happen overnight;;but rather a very very gradual change;;as too much change too fast is not good. Got to let the seeds soak in and growing takes time and patience. Any kind of outward thing SHOULD BE a result of inward growth. Okay, that's pretty wordy, so I'll stop now. QUOTE: Not that I agree that they should in your face to others. That I think is wrong. But, I can see where one would want to share things which works for them. I think we as new creatures in Jesus must try to make a consistent change in all manner of our lives.HRL:: Yes, but we also need to remember that everyone is different. WE are each a unique child of God. We grow at different rates. WE might be growing proliferically in the spiritual part of our lives.....knocking off a few unclean habits along the way....and partaking of activities that feel RIGHT with God. God-centered things. Activities in which God is at the center....~~I truly believe that when one IS literally FILLED with the Holy Spirit, you just want to walk with God; PERIOD. And that may mean you don't want to be around certain people you were around in the past;;; being with God is SO MUCH BETTER!!QUOTE: So then in the final analysis I can say to the worker who visits, yes I have a TV and yes I watch much garbage but do you understand that the sin is in my mind and not the TV. Please do not judge me--- I war withing my members but I am working in the renewing of my mind though Jesus Christ.
And I don't think we should judge them who choose to avoid these things which are counter to growth in the spiritual sense.HRL Well, sure sin can start in the mind; and our brain is connected to our vision; which as we watch certain things; is influenced by what it sees.....but again; when the Holy Spirit dwells fully in one's life, there is just no appetite for certain things...IMOQUOTE: How can you maintain the peace of the HOLY SPIRIT if you are consistently looking at movies with adultery, pornography, satan worship and such. Of late it seems that every show I watch has some of these themes in them. Even my favorite "The Simpson's" has this junk in it now.Exactly!QUOTE: I don't want to judge my brothers and sisters for their choices. It is there right. I am just saying that maybe there is a deeper reason for them to want to follow these codes. We are all weak. The problem is that many have went form the inner self to thinking that it is a trait which should be followed by all who are sincere and thus legalisms. Well are they really such bad traits for Christians who are in continued change and transformation? Yes, there can be a problem when our service is on the surface, and NOT an inward stirring of the heart to sincerely offer what one can to serve God as called. So, I need to 'check' myself frequently: am I doing a surface service, or a sincere, God driven inward service? ANY church, ANY...can get caught up in surface serving; vs. inward serving. Don't you think it becomes a habit for some people to throw a few bucks in the offering plate? Or to give for foreign missions; or to join this or that group just because they want to fit in and they think that's how ya serve God? But the love of the friends is truly unique and is prompted by the Holy Spirit, IMO, and Fwiw. One more thing: You mentioned consistent change. And I am wondering who decides what is consistent and what is not consistent? Consistent to what convictions you are given by the Holy Spirit. And since each of us receives convictions at different times and about different things, HOW does one define CONSISTENT CHANGE? A walk with God is soooo INDIVIDUAL!! Thanks for this provoking discourse. Will look forward to more. thanx.
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Post by the new man on Apr 4, 2006 12:38:03 GMT -5
You are still talking about God helping you to please Him?
Don't you see, He is pleased with you when He regenerates you because He has made you holy and acceptable!
If you are still trying to make yourself acceptable to God, or pleasing to Him, then you haven't understood salvation correctly.
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Post by To New Man on Apr 4, 2006 13:01:44 GMT -5
You are still talking about God helping you to please Him? Don't you see, He is pleased with you when He regenerates you because He has made you holy and acceptable! If you are still trying to make yourself acceptable to God, or pleasing to Him, then you haven't understood salvation correctly. Whoa there,,,,,,,,now just settle down a minute;;;;This thread is not about what it takes to have salvation. This thread is about what is going on with a person who is given new life in Christ. And we are having a wonderful discourse......{aren't we?}.. ......about what kinds of things happen to people when they are truly walking with God IN THE SPIRIT..........
If YOU think I am holy and acceptable, then okay;;;fine;; I'll leave it up to God to decide;;; but if you really new me and what I am reeeeallly like, you would know that I am NOT HOLY, I am NOT GOOD;; ;ONLY GOD IS GOOD. Right.................. It is not in man to be good. ....right??
I have a conviction that there are things that are pleasing to God and things that are NOT..... and while I don't judge others for their own convictions, once I have a certain conviction from the Holy Spirit, then it behooves me sincerely to HEED THAT.
Correction: I don't try to make myself acceptable to God. I just have absolutely no desire to fill my time with certain things. It's as simple as that. :)One cannot make themselves acceptable to God; only God gives that to us. It comes from God. Now don't be a twisting things around on me or I'll have to get out my poison arrows and start practicing on ya. hrl
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Post by quest on Apr 4, 2006 13:56:47 GMT -5
awesome, awesome, awesome, what more can I say, I agree with you 100%.
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Post by Reviewing on Apr 4, 2006 14:58:18 GMT -5
"Question: Is it or would it be wrong to try and avoid things which the old man wanted such that they might fight the battle with less interference? How can this type of avoidance be wrong?
For instance, worker or Friend who decide that TV is out because there is so much garbage which is counter to a Spiritual health and they know they are to weak. They simply would rather not watch it.
Should we judge them if they feel that it can be a hindrance?
Or what of female friends who see that dressing in the strict 2x2 code helps keep them (according to their mind) in a Demure or modest manner.
I think you get my questions.
Has it ever been considered that (they choose these things for their own control)? (Not others) "
end quote Is it limited to the female friends and worker and Friends (as mentioned in the above quote) that feel God leading them into dresses and no tv? I see numbers of Godly people rejecting and limiting tv, limiting outside exposure of worldly influences in their homes, women dressing modestly-eschewing trousers and red. I read this post and feel that there is something, I can't quite put my finger on it, something like-exclusivity? Scripture does not limit to only the workers and friends. If I mis-read the intent of the original poster, I sincerely apologize. Yep you have mis-read it.
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Post by Reviewing on Apr 4, 2006 15:18:18 GMT -5
Conformity to artificial standards to be "accepted" by other "believers" becomes the issue. Once I understand correctly, God's acceptance of me through His grace- His provision, His "work", then I experience freedom to be really human, as He intended. We DO live in now and not yet. Positionally righteous, because the Judge has already decided in our favor, yet struggling with sin, until the end comes, and the extent of our regeneration is realized. When we decide to band to gather ONLY with those who are like us, we miss our Commission to go into all the world, to go into the dark places, and bring the Light into them. Not just a few who are "qualified" , or sent, all believers are to be the Light, as they go through their part of the world. When we decide to band to gather ONLY with those who are like us we have not understood grace correctly, and are judging on the outside appearance, the very thing that we are told not to do. We do not have license to do what we want. We are bondslaves of God (Jesus)- but children of God as well. When we set ourselves so apart from this world that we are uncomfortable being honest and open, verbal, and authentic with those who are in it, we betray our loyalty. Our loyalty then is to law, not the Savior who went into the dark places and tells us to follow Him. It is not enough to send missionaries, we are to each one, be a living, verbal, honest, authentic, missionary follower of the King in every aspect of our lives. We are to be engaged in the renewing work of God in everything that we do. We have to allow each the freedom to be what God has enabled, and is calling them to be- and leave the final judgments, for conviction or acquittal, for reward or loss, to Him. Karl Agreed You know sometime I think about all the parable of mustard seed. You know when that small seed is planted it can grow into a very large tree. I like Matthew 17:19-21
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"
20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
Would this not be wonderful if we all could grow like this in "faith".----
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Post by Zorro on Apr 4, 2006 15:42:32 GMT -5
"but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
Awhile ago this verse hit me like a ton of bricks. I'd heard for 30 years that we need to die so that the Spirit might live. That makes sense doesn't it? Only problem is that this verse makes it clear that we don't die first. The Spirit LIVES first, then He (God) helps us put to death the deeds of the flesh. It's not just semantics, it's the definition of living by grace.
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BC
Senior Member
Posts: 852
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Post by BC on Apr 4, 2006 16:30:23 GMT -5
Hi,
I believe the original post was taking the F&W as example as this is a forum about this group of people. I don't see the post tending to wards exclusivity but rather using an example of a group of people real time that we are all familiar with.
I have read through this and feel that in essence we all agree that it is not wrong to desire to be free of some things in life that would otherwise distract or take up valuable time that is better used in other pursuits, or things that we feel would inhibit or restrict the work of God in our lives.
What is wrong is the imposition of rules on an individual that hamper individual choice and Devinne guidance.
Why would we want "avoid" or abstain from doing things? The "new man" stated that
It is not so much a matter of trying to make ourselves acceptable to him but more that we are trying to please him. Can we displease him? Yes we can. We as humans of fleshly nature will sin, anyone who says differently is fooling themselves, it speaks in many places in the bible about the displeasure that certain ones bought God but doesn't say that they were no longer under the grace of God or going to a lost eternity. Just as a natural child is acceptable to a father always but sometimes does things that bring momentary displeasure. Many places it speaks of things that those that follow Christ should be manifesting in their lives. Jesus gave many instructions in the sermon on the mount as to how we are to conduct ourselves as true followers of him. Our salvation is a gift and as such is free. But if God was not worried how we behaved and what we did then Jesus would never have spent so much time and energy trying to get us to understand how God wants us to live before him and others.
A comment by HRL
I agree with you HRL, though there is a BUT, we have one who desires us all to fail and displease God. SATAN. Regardless of whether he can convince us to cast aside this gift, he is going to try and try hard. I believe he knew he would never cause Jesus to sin in the wilderness but he still tried. As you HRL I have no desire for a lot of things that are harmless and other things that are harmful, but I am often aware of satan placing little thoughts etc into my head to cause me to consider these things. What I pray for is the strength of the spirit to overcome these thoughts lest through my humanness they become actions.
Hence my point that for some it is necessary to "avoid" certain things because they appeal to the human spirit that is always present, though overriden/put down by the Devinne spirit that is in our life.
[shadow=red,left,300]Regards BC[/shadow]
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Post by To Karl on Apr 4, 2006 16:45:39 GMT -5
Conformity to artificial standards to be "accepted" by other "believers" becomes the issue. Once I understand correctly, God's acceptance of me through His grace- His provision, His "work", then I experience freedom to be really human, as He intended. We DO live in now and not yet. Positionally righteous, because the Judge has already decided in our favor, yet struggling with sin, until the end comes, and the extent of our regeneration is realized.
When we decide to band to gather ONLY with those who are like us, we miss our Commission to go into all the world, to go into the dark places, and bring the Light into them. Not just a few who are "qualified" , or sent, all believers are to be the Light, as they go through their part of the world.
When we decide to band to gather ONLY with those who are like us we have not understood grace correctly, and are judging on the outside appearance, the very thing that we are told not to do.
We do not have license to do what we want. We are bondslaves of God (Jesus)- but children of God as well. When we set ourselves so apart from this world that we are uncomfortable being honest and open, verbal, and authentic with those who are in it, we betray our loyalty. Our loyalty then is to law, not the Savior who went into the dark places and tells us to follow Him.
It is not enough to send missionaries, we are to each one, be a living, verbal, honest, authentic, missionary follower of the King in every aspect of our lives. We are to be engaged in the renewing work of God in everything that we do. We have to allow each the freedom to be what God has enabled, and is calling them to be- and leave the final judgments, for conviction or acquittal, for reward or loss, to Him.
Karl
Thanks for putting some practical thoughts out. It is scary to find the pharisee in ourselves. But so necessary to know the difference between what Jesus was doing and what the Pharisee's saw and thought. None of us ever wanted to play the role of Pharisee, but that is where we all have to start. At the bottom, just like Jesus did. It is a wonderful thing that all Christians start at the bottom. Where we are completely humbled by the Truth. In awe of our very existance and awareness of others, not as our competition, but as our fellow man. All equal before God AMAZING GRACE ;D
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2006 16:56:25 GMT -5
I am glad that you got something out of this post. I am always talking about this stuff- you should see what goes on in a typical Sunday.
I have a great bunch of folks that I fellowship with- they are all growing, moving, and it is great to be around and see God at work in so many.
Thanks!
Karl
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