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Post by Reviewing on Apr 4, 2006 19:34:12 GMT -5
Thank you all for sharing in this thread. It is good to come to consensus and agreement.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 4, 2006 19:35:49 GMT -5
so according to you what i stated is not showing how to have a relationship with Jesus Christ? look at Jesus's relationship with His Father and read what He says, I do always the things that please the Father. so if pleasing the Father is not doing those things that please Him which you seem to suggest the we are all screwed. What about avoiding vain emulations? Has you belief made you fruitful? what about it? if this what you are doing, I suggest you stop what do you say?
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struggling with sin
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Post by struggling with sin on Apr 5, 2006 13:52:30 GMT -5
Can we agree that we all struggle with sin? I would venture a "yes" to that.
And so...why do we continue to struggle with sin, even though we are regenerated by God? Why is that? Because we still have a carnal nature that will be with us until the day we die and because Satan is also at work.
I feel that it is very dangerous to assume that we are a-okay because we have been born again once....yes, we are born again and given new life, BIRTH is a BEGINNING, not an ENDING....just as childbirth is the beginning of a whole life process, so is any kind of new birth. It is a beginning and there will be all sorts of joys, victories, and struggles along the way. That is just a fact. Yet even though we struggle with sin; that in no way means that we are condemned because of the struggle.
But we need to be aware of the powers of darkness and our own carnal nature that can trip us up. It is possible for a born again Christian to actually turn away from God and worship Satan, worship themselves or the things of this world. It happens. It is also possible for people to believe in their own power instead of the power of God.
If we lived on a compound and had no interraction with other folks in the world, we would indeed be hiding our light. There are many many Christian churches who primarily associate with each other; who only attend Christain schools or home school; or only go to primarily 'churchy' functions. I have known lots of 'Christians', who only associate with those of like faith. Exclusiveness is not unique to the friends. I know lots of friends who frequently interract with all sorts of folks in the world on a daily basis; yet when it comes to sacred fellowship, they prefer to worship with those of like-mindedness.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2006 13:59:05 GMT -5
When it comes to "sacred" fellowship, I can only fellowship with other believers. Christianity is exclusive to those who are called and saved by the God of the Bible.
Karl
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Post by GG on Apr 5, 2006 14:25:45 GMT -5
When it comes to "sacred" fellowship, I can only fellowship with other believers. Christianity is exclusive to those who are called and saved by the God of the Bible. Karl I agree, Christianity is exclusive, that's for sure... gigi
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IQ
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Post by IQ on Apr 5, 2006 14:58:09 GMT -5
I agree, Christianity is exclusive, that's for sure... gigi ...the Son still rises over Canada... God Bless
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Post by Reviewing on Apr 6, 2006 23:50:44 GMT -5
YOU MUST DIE TO GET TO HEAVEN--YOU WILL NOT BE IN TOTAL REGENERATION UNTIL YOU DIE. Until then you put on the armour and stand with your eyes (Spiritual) fixed on GOD
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Post by repost on Apr 7, 2006 21:28:48 GMT -5
QUOTE: Of these one topic I have been reviewing is this issue of self- righteousness as presented in appearance and avoidance of so called worldly things which of course overlaps many of the above issues. With my study I have reviewed in depth the KJV and NIV including the Blue Letter. My concern deals with the transformation of a believer. Without getting into a debate on scripture I would like to humbly add my input to this thinking. I think we can purposefully AVOID 'things'.....meaning, it's not always Spirit led, with the idea that in avoiding certain things, we will be more pure. While there may some truth to that; I have to wonder if we avoid things because of our own ideas/will power of what is right/wrong or do we just one day find ourselves having a lack of DESIRE to be around the same things we did before receiving the Love of Jesus into our lives completely? QUOTE: It is clear from scripture that being born again and accepting salvation will not stop us from sinning. We sin because we exist in the carnal nature of the flesh. However our mind should exist in the spiritual nature. That is I suppose why Paul spoke so much in Chpt 7 of romans on this very subject. Now here we are.Wow. This is HUGE. I mean;;yeah, we have a sinful nature; that's a given. So how do we deal with it? Hmm. Yeah, I think Paul was trying to address this in depth ..... How does one walk a spiritual life pleasing to God, yet still exist in the flesh? We need the power of God to help us....and He will.......I firmly believe in that. QUOTE: So a man or a women is touched by the Holy Spirit and is moved to accept that love Gift of the Father in Jesus. In doing so they (whom ever) are so moved to want to make some changes in life behavior because they are so happy and elated in this Spirit which is working in them. In this quest to change and transform from the old man to the new Spiritual man they find the warfare hard and not attainable in the sense they are still trapped in the carnal body.Well, the wonder of it all is that God will help us in this spiritual warfare....that is a miracle that I have experienced and have witnessed.......I've seen God's power and armour at work;;;and one of the greatest tools/weapons we have is prayer...it is a mighty source of power.....AND something happens when one is given new spiritual life; when one is filled with the Holy Spirit there is little room for anything else.....quite literally........one is filled to overflowing capacity; therefore, there is no room for ANYTHING else to be entertained, so to speak....QUOTE: Question: Is it or would it be wrong to try and avoid things which the old man wanted such that they might fight the battle with less interference? How can this type of avoidance be wrong?Nope, it is in NOT WRONG....but I don't see it as AVOIDANCE, more just as not happening.......meaning::there is just NO DESIRE to do certain things anymore, and therefore, you just don't do them......it's pretty simple in that regard. I see and hear judgemental comments toward the 'friends' because they don't do this and they don't do that.........well..........perhaps that is because they have no desire to do certain things........NOT because they ARE REQUIRED For instance, worker or Friend who decide that TV is out because there is so much garbage which is counter to a Spiritual health and they know they are to weak. They simply would rather not watch it. Should we judge them if they feel that it can be a hindrance? Or what of female friends who see that dressing in the strict 2x2 code helps keep them (according to their mind) in a Demure or modest manner. I think you get my questions. Has it ever been considered that (they choose these things for their own control)? (Not others) Not that I agree that they should in your face to others. That I think is wrong. But, I can see where one would want to share things which works for them. I think we as new creatures in Jesus must try to make a consistent change in all manner of our lives. So then in the final analysis I can say to the worker who visits, yes I have a TV and yes I watch much garbage but do you understand that the sin is in my mind and not the TV. Please do not judge me--- I war withing my members but I am working in the renewing of my mind though Jesus Christ. And I don't think we should judge them who choose to avoid these things which are counter to growth in the spiritual sense. How can you maintain the peace of the HOLY SPIRIT if you are consistently looking at movies with adultery, pornography, satan worship and such. Of late it seems that every show I watch has some of these themes in them. Even my favorite "The Simpson's" has this junk in it now. I don't want to judge my brothers and sisters for their choices. It is there right. I am just saying that maybe there is a deeper reason for them to want to follow these codes. We are all weak. The problem is that many have went form the inner self to thinking that it is a trait which should be followed by all who are sincere and thus legalisms. Well are they really such bad traits for Christians who are in continued change and transformation? repost.....
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Post by HRL on Apr 8, 2006 11:21:26 GMT -5
One thing I think I need reminding of is that being truly "born again" and being regenerated by God, in no way means you all of the sudden become this "perfect" specimen of a Christ-like human being.....as is often assumed. 'Well, he/she goes to church every Sun. and so we expect them to act a certain way at all times. THAT is putting people in a box, in a way... A few things have been said by others who expect you to uphold the utmost standards once you have taken those first steps in following Jesus; yet still struggle with sin and your own ways: "Some Christian you are..." "You're supposed to be a such a good Christian...." What many people don't realise is that the longest and most worthwhile journey begins with that first step and starting off;; and that is the FIRST STEP in a NEW lifelong process of feeding; watering; growing; and nurturing;;and it takes time; a lot of time;; but time well spent and very worthwhile..;; And sooo much of the actual 'work' being done with a person is with the hidden part of the person.... Just as we don't engage in a fitness routine because we already have the ABSolute perfect specimen of a body, but because we feel we need that extra help and attn. to acheive a fitness goal...but that takes time if it's likely to stick. Okay, enuf from me for now.......
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Post by to HRL on Apr 9, 2006 21:08:29 GMT -5
One thing I think I need reminding of is that being truly "born again" and being regenerated by God, in no way means you all of the sudden become this "perfect" specimen of a Christ-like human being.....as is often assumed. 'Well, he/she goes to church every Sun. and so we expect them to act a certain way at all times. THAT is putting people in a box, in a way... A few things have been said by others who expect you to uphold the utmost standards once you have taken those first steps in following Jesus; yet still struggle with sin and your own ways: "Some Christian you are..." "You're supposed to be a such a good Christian...." What many people don't realise is that the longest and most worthwhile journey begins with that first step and starting off;; and that is the FIRST STEP in a NEW lifelong process of feeding; watering; growing; and nurturing;;and it takes time; a lot of time;; but time well spent and very worthwhile..;; And sooo much of the actual 'work' being done with a person is with the hidden part of the person.... Just as we don't engage in a fitness routine because we already have the ABSolute perfect specimen of a body, but because we feel we need that extra help and attn. to acheive a fitness goal...but that takes time if it's likely to stick. Okay, enuf from me for now....... Thanks, again, HRL! I like the way you bring out your thoughts, clear, concise, insightful, freshly stated. <puppet....
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Post by HRL on Apr 10, 2006 13:07:42 GMT -5
One thing I think I need reminding of is that being truly "born again" and being regenerated by God, in no way means you all of the sudden become this "perfect" specimen of a Christ-like human being.....as is often assumed. 'Well, he/she goes to church every Sun. and so we expect them to act a certain way at all times. THAT is putting people in a box, in a way... A few things have been said by others who expect you to uphold the utmost standards once you have taken those first steps in following Jesus; yet still struggle with sin and your own ways: "Some Christian you are..." "You're supposed to be a such a good Christian...." What many people don't realise is that the longest and most worthwhile journey begins with that first step and starting off;; and that is the FIRST STEP in a NEW lifelong process of feeding; watering; growing; and nurturing;;and it takes time; a lot of time;; but time well spent and very worthwhile..;; And sooo much of the actual 'work' being done with a person is with the hidden part of the person.... Just as we don't engage in a fitness routine because we already have the ABSolute perfect specimen of a body, but because we feel we need that extra help and attn. to acheive a fitness goal...but that takes time if it's likely to stick. Okay, enuf from me for now....... Thanks, again, HRL! I like the way you bring out your thoughts, clear, concise, insightful, freshly stated. <puppet.... Thanx, puppet. How are the strings holding out?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2006 16:44:38 GMT -5
HRL said... "And sooo much of the actual 'work' being done with a person is with the hidden part of the person...."
Why do you say this?
karl
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Post by HRL on Apr 10, 2006 16:48:11 GMT -5
HRL said... "And sooo much of the actual 'work' being done with a person is with the hidden part of the person...." Why do you say this? karl Y due U asck?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2006 17:29:14 GMT -5
Because I think I disagree with you, but I don't want to assume your meanings/motives.
Karl
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Post by HRL on Apr 10, 2006 19:04:58 GMT -5
Because I think I disagree with you, but I don't want to assume your meanings/motives. Karl Okay...thanx for getting back to me...umm...now it is I who must search the heart/mind/soul for WHY..and I do appreciate your HONESTY in simply stating that you THINK you disagree with me....it is refreshingly and due-ly noted....ahhhemm. ... ..... ;;;;shows that you are not too PROUD to just come on out and say what's on your mind;;I LIKE that in a PREACHER, karl. I really do........ Just tell it like it is, yep; I like that. !! And so....here's what I think:: I think maybe you would REALLY like to have a worthwhile and CIVIL discourse about WHY;; am I correct or at least somewhere in the ballpark?? So yeah... WHY INDEED. Why? Honestly, I don't know if I can explain to you why , but I will certainly try....let me think about it first, ok? hrl
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Post by hrl on Apr 10, 2006 19:20:38 GMT -5
HRL said... "And sooo much What I mean in this portion of the sentence is "sooo much" is A LOT. ' of the actual 'work' ' Okay, by 'actual' , I mean REAL.... and by 'work' I mean building, changes, spiritual progress, and many other things that include 'work'....inner 'work' that happens inside a person's heart/mind/soul.....but mainly SOUL WORK, which is also spiritual work. being doneAlso means: going on; happening... with a person This can refer and ANY person you want it to, but it refers to a person and the soul of that person; not a dinosaur or and peahen or a piglet or something besides a human being....is with the hidden part By "hidden part" I am again talking about the soul....of the person...." And to wrap it up....again....I refer to a person, singular of people.
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Post by to hrl on Apr 10, 2006 21:56:06 GMT -5
HRL said... "And sooo much What I mean in this portion of the sentence is "sooo much" is A LOT. ' of the actual 'work' ' Okay, by 'actual' , I mean REAL.... and by 'work' I mean building, changes, spiritual progress, and many other things that include 'work'....inner 'work' that happens inside a person's heart/mind/soul.....but mainly SOUL WORK, which is also spiritual work. being doneAlso means: going on; happening... with a person This can refer and ANY person you want it to, but it refers to a person and the soul of that person; not a dinosaur or and peahen or a piglet or something besides a human being....is with the hidden part By "hidden part" I am again talking about the soul....of the person...." And to wrap it up....again....I refer to a person, singular of people. I love your heart & soul, hrl, . [and your wit ,lol]
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Post by hrl on Apr 10, 2006 23:16:39 GMT -5
HRL said... "And sooo much What I mean in this portion of the sentence is "sooo much" is A LOT. ' of the actual 'work' ' Okay, by 'actual' , I mean REAL.... and by 'work' I mean building, changes, spiritual progress, and many other things that include 'work'....inner 'work' that happens inside a person's heart/mind/soul.....but mainly SOUL WORK, which is also spiritual work. being doneAlso means: going on; happening... with a person This can refer and ANY person you want it to, but it refers to a person and the soul of that person; not a dinosaur or and peahen or a piglet or something besides a human being....is with the hidden part By "hidden part" I am again talking about the soul....of the person...." And to wrap it up....again....I refer to a person, singular of people. I love your heart & soul, hrl, . [and your wit ,lol] Thanx for that feedback; in reviewing; I am chagrinned that I really didn't answer Karl's question of 'why'. ....maybe I just don't know 'why'.
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Post by lacpastorunplugged on Apr 11, 2006 12:46:54 GMT -5
That's kind of what I wondered. Any changes made within would evidence themselves without pretty quickly. If God's desire is to be known, and Kingdom people are the "billboard" that He uses, it does not follow that most of His work on us would be "secret", or hidden.
Thanks for your honesty too!
Karl
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Post by hmmmmm on Apr 11, 2006 22:37:09 GMT -5
Any changes made within would evidence themselves without pretty quickly. If God's desire is to be known, and Kingdom people are the "billboard" that He uses, it does not follow that most of His work on us would be "secret", or hidden. Thanks for your honesty too! Karl tsk, tsk, Karl, must you pick at gnats...... Jesus told us to pray to the Father in secret, [another inward work] IMO, this means, to me, that the important work, God does is in preparing a place to meet with Him, in secret...[.meaning the inward soul]......and as He answers us inwardly, the answer is revealed outwardly, as a manifestation of the inward working of God. Yes, I am sure you feel the outward looks and honors, that one in your position, may feel that God is working on your robes, and garments, before you allow Him to work with your heart/inward......but your criticism is mute in face of this twist you expose. Thanks for your honest appraisal of your condition.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2006 22:45:44 GMT -5
Aside from your judgment of my character and motives, and noting of my apparent shallowness- also my self deception and vanity, how is what you ultimately stated different from what I said- that the work of God evidences itself externally?
Karl
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Post by to Karl on Apr 11, 2006 23:02:14 GMT -5
Aside from your judgment of my character and motives, and noting of my apparent shallowness- also my self deception and vanity, how is what you ultimately stated different from what I said- that the work of God evidences itself externally? Karl ::)I think you do a good job of inserting words in others mouths, and then claiming you are a righteous shallow person. I don't understand your pride in the shallowness of your beliefs, but nonethe less it is quite apparant.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2006 23:09:09 GMT -5
"...and then claiming you are a righteous shallow person. "
I don't understand the above- I get the rest of the critique. Could you please clarify?
Karl
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Post by to Karl on Apr 12, 2006 6:45:29 GMT -5
"...and then claiming you are a righteous shallow person. " I don't understand the above- I get the rest of the critique. Could you please clarify? Karl Karl, you seem to love to argue, dispute, debate, and disagree. The original thought expressed was of the opinion that God's MOST important work is an inward work, you claim it is the outward work, it seems this is your bone of contention. Will you please explain why you want to dispute such shallow righteousness as this? ?? I do not wish to argue your shallowness, as it is NOT referring to your ''outward'' shallowness, but your inward shallowness. . This thread is about 'the new man' and that refers to the inner man [ unseen].......and it was my ''attempt'' to create an agreement with this thought. AND your point is? ?.......PEACE, man, PEACE!!
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Post by lacpastorunplugged on Apr 12, 2006 7:18:12 GMT -5
I was having a polite discussion with HRL. You commented on me personally, and so I asked you for clarification. You don't want to clarify. Fine
If you would read my reply, I claimed it was an inward work that will rather quickly evidence itself. God did not recreate only part of us- there is a struggle, but we are now new creations, pleasing to Him. God did not regenerate us as fragmented beings, but we are now wholly pleasing to Him in Christ. God is not a secret.
You refer to private prayer as a secret work of God- no, that is our work towards Him. He indwells us and so is always working in and through those whom He has chosen to.
The inner man/outer man dichotomy is often used to excuse sin, or disobedience, or to rationalize the lacking evidence of our regeneration. HRL did not state this, and i do not accuse him of that, nor you. But there are many believers that read here, all of us at different places of understanding, learning, growth. If I nitpick it is to avoid wrong, unbiblical ideas to trip up newer believers. If you want to attribute it to something else, well that doesn't change anything really.
You make comments about a "man in my position"... what position, vertical? Do you mean me as a "pastor ?"
Karl
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Post by to Karl on Apr 12, 2006 10:21:49 GMT -5
I was having a polite discussion with HRL. You refer to private prayer as a secret work of God- no, that is our work towards Him. He indwells us and so is always working in and through those whom He has chosen to. The inner man/outer man dichotomy is often used to excuse sin, or disobedience, or to rationalize the lacking evidence of our regeneration. HRL did not state this, and i do not accuse him of that, nor you. If I nitpick it is to avoid wrong, unbiblical ideas to trip up newer believers. Karl Thanks for the polite discussion, it is humorous to me, that you attack certain thoughts, even though they may be valid, it seems that some people attack truths when they don't want to face the truth. I am not saying that is why you do this, but it is often the main reason for doing so. Please do not think that I believe this is your reasoning, as I am sure your reason for attacking truth may be valid, in your eyes, as we know that everyone is ''right in their own eyes'' and this seems to apply to everyone. thanks for your polite understanding of these thoughts.
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Post by Zorro on Apr 12, 2006 10:41:52 GMT -5
I just finished reading the introduction of Roger Olson's Mosaic of Christian Beliefs where, among other things, he describes the divisive result of people's tendency toward "either/or" thinking vs "both/and" thinking. This discussion is a perfect example of what he is talking about. Karl is describing a "both/and" application of scripture to this issue...the work of God is done BOTH inside AND outside. However, because some define arguments from an "either/or" perspective you find a disconnect of communication and fellowship. This problem is continually in evidence on this board.
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Post by Karl on Apr 12, 2006 13:54:46 GMT -5
Because I think I disagree with you, but I don't want to assume your meanings/motives. Karl
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