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Post by Dan on Oct 3, 2023 23:47:43 GMT -5
Memes are better than cheap, they're free, and sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.
But even so, accepting such hypothesis doesn't answer the ultimate question. All the matter in the universe didn't erupt from nothing, there had to have been an existing cause.
Something existed and it didn't come from nothing, wilful ignorance is denying that fact.
If you do not accept the big bang then how do you explain the cosmic microwave background?
I do not rule out the big bang, its entirely possible that it all began from a single point, CMB lends credibility to the theory. But mine is a question of causality, particles (protons and neutrons) only came into existence post big bang.
The only hypothesis is that quarks were a type of matter/anti-matter that flashed in and out of existence. Its all speculative physics that I don't pretend to grasp, but I still lean towards the creation of all physical matter
emanating from a singularity, that single point caused by God himself. Someday science may prove me wrong, but I don't believe the vastness, complexity, and synchronization of all that exist is random. The harmonious and integrated formation of nature itself screams intelligent design, not to mention life itself.
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Post by Dan on Oct 4, 2023 0:55:02 GMT -5
If there is a 'higher mind' as maryhig is suggesting, does it have to be a personal god? It would make more sense from what science shows us that if something created everything that it put everything into a singularity and then let nature take it's course. The universe that we see is based on the building blocks that were there in the Big Bang. We and all living beings in this universe are just a product of the 'ingredients' available and we are the result of evolution over a very long time. And we will continue to evolve into something we probably wouldn't recognize far into the future if we lived that long to see it. If we have a nuclear war and there are survivors they will have changed DNA and over time will not be the same as we see now likely. We are the outcome of the products available. We would be very different if the building blocks for life were different.
To me, it takes a ton of faith to believe that everything on earth came into existence when nature took its course. We had to have a perfect atmosphere, temperature, and conditions for a rock to turn into a man? Science might have some fathomable hypothesis for the existence of matter (uncaused), but what caused the metamorphosis of dead matter into living cells? Supernatural magic or a spiritual life giver? God made Adam out of matter (dirt), but "Breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul". A living thinking being did not evolve from pond scum, our spirits aren't even physical. We aren't products of what was, but created as is. Its been 6000 yrs since Adam, how have we evolved in that narrow time frame? God is Spirit, and that part of us could not have come from anything we can observe.
Some think Christians are gullible, but is it more realistic to believe God created or;
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 4, 2023 1:01:55 GMT -5
If there is a 'higher mind' as maryhig is suggesting, does it have to be a personal god? It would make more sense from what science shows us that if something created everything that it put everything into a singularity and then let nature take it's course. The universe that we see is based on the building blocks that were there in the Big Bang. We and all living beings in this universe are just a product of the 'ingredients' available and we are the result of evolution over a very long time. And we will continue to evolve into something we probably wouldn't recognize far into the future if we lived that long to see it. If we have a nuclear war and there are survivors they will have changed DNA and over time will not be the same as we see now likely. We are the outcome of the products available. We would be very different if the building blocks for life were different.
To me, it takes a ton of faith to believe that everything on earth came into existence when nature took its course. We had to have a perfect atmosphere, temperature, and conditions for a rock to turn into a man? Science might have some fathomable hypothesis for the existence of matter (uncaused), but what caused the metamorphosis of dead matter into living cells? Supernatural magic or a spiritual life giver? God made Adam out of matter (dirt), but "Breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul". A living thinking being did not evolve from pond scum, our spirits aren't even physical. We aren't products of what was, but created as is. Its been 6000 yrs since Adam, how have we evolved in that narrow time frame? God is Spirit, and that part of us could not have come from anything we can observe.
Some think Christians are gullible, but is it more realistic to believe God created or; Supernatural magic or a spiritual life giver? These are one and the same.
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Post by intelchips on Oct 4, 2023 12:06:34 GMT -5
Memes are better than cheap, they're free, and sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.
But even so, accepting such hypothesis doesn't answer the ultimate question. All the matter in the universe didn't erupt from nothing, there had to have been an existing cause.
Something existed and it didn't come from nothing, wilful ignorance is denying that fact.
It's true that the exact origin of the universe is still a topic of scientific exploration and debate. The Big Bang theory is the prevailing scientific explanation for the universe's early expansion, but it is continually refined and tested. While the origin of the universe remains uncertain, it's important to note that scientific theories are based on empirical evidence and rigorous testing. The Big Bang theory is supported by a wide range of observations, such as cosmic background radiation and the distribution of galaxies. The concept of something coming from nothing is indeed a philosophical and metaphysical question. However, it's important to distinguish between scientific theories and philosophical questions. The Big Bang theory doesn't claim that something came from nothing; rather, it describes the early expansion of the universe from a dense, hot state. The idea that "something existed and didn't come from nothing" is a valid philosophical perspective, but it's not directly related to the scientific discussion about the origins of the universe. In summary, while memes can be entertaining and valuable in their own way, it's essential to consider their context and not overstate their significance. Regarding the origin of the universe, it's a complex scientific topic with ongoing research, and the Big Bang theory is the current leading explanation based on available evidence, even though it doesn't address the philosophical question of something coming from nothing. These topics can coexist without undermining each other.
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Post by snow on Oct 4, 2023 13:58:25 GMT -5
If there is a 'higher mind' as maryhig is suggesting, does it have to be a personal god? It would make more sense from what science shows us that if something created everything that it put everything into a singularity and then let nature take it's course. The universe that we see is based on the building blocks that were there in the Big Bang. We and all living beings in this universe are just a product of the 'ingredients' available and we are the result of evolution over a very long time. And we will continue to evolve into something we probably wouldn't recognize far into the future if we lived that long to see it. If we have a nuclear war and there are survivors they will have changed DNA and over time will not be the same as we see now likely. We are the outcome of the products available. We would be very different if the building blocks for life were different. To me, it takes a ton of faith to believe that everything on earth came into existence when nature took its course. We had to have a perfect atmosphere, temperature, and conditions for a rock to turn into a man? Science might have some fathomable hypothesis for the existence of matter (uncaused), but what caused the metamorphosis of dead matter into living cells? Supernatural magic or a spiritual life giver? God made Adam out of matter (dirt), but "Breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul". A living thinking being did not evolve from pond scum, our spirits aren't even physical. We aren't products of what was, but created as is. Its been 6000 yrs since Adam, how have we evolved in that narrow time frame? God is Spirit, and that part of us could not have come from anything we can observe.
Some think Christians are gullible, but is it more realistic to believe God created or; See that's where I think things go south when people say everything needed to be perfect to have what we see now. That's coming at it all backwards imo. What we see existing is the outcome of what was possible given what there was. It could have been entirely different with a different atmosphere etc. And, we'd still be saying, well how could what exists exist. It's simple. What you see is what the universe supports. Period. If the universe had different building blocks for life, what exists would be entirely different. Stating that everything must come from God because it supports what we see doesn't make sense to me. What we see is what was possible with what there was to work with. The world wasn't made for us, we are the outcome of what the world could support.
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Post by cheryl8787 on Oct 4, 2023 15:06:48 GMT -5
There is a member on CCF who is also an atheist that posts and posts and posts and posts, ....... Basic fedora-hat garden variety atheist, seemingly got her ideas from a youtube video. I think her name is [name removed]. Snow, have you been on CCF and spoken with [removed]? I bet you two would have a lot in common. Maybe you could have some very interesting private conversations, or even join an atheist forum.
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Post by snow on Oct 4, 2023 15:21:49 GMT -5
There is a member on CCF who is also an atheist that posts and posts and posts and posts, ....... Basic fedora-hat garden variety atheist, seemingly got her ideas from a youtube video. I think her name is [removed]. Snow, have you been on CCF and spoken with [removed]? I bet you two would have a lot in common. Maybe you could have some very interesting private conversations, or even join an atheist forum. No I'm not on CCF. It's an interesting conversation for sure. I love the internet because we can meet up virtually with people and have some very great in depth conversations. No matter where in the world we can read books together and then discuss them. I love that.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 4, 2023 15:34:00 GMT -5
There is a member on CCF who is also an atheist that posts and posts and posts and posts, ....... Basic fedora-hat garden variety atheist, seemingly got her ideas from a youtube video. I think her name is [removed]. Snow, have you been on CCF and spoken with [removed]? I bet you two would have a lot in common. Maybe you could have some very interesting private conversations, or even join an atheist forum. Yes, and what's wrong with her being on there?
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Post by snow on Oct 4, 2023 15:42:48 GMT -5
There is a member on CCF who is also an atheist that posts and posts and posts and posts, ....... Basic fedora-hat garden variety atheist, seemingly got her ideas from a youtube video. I think her name is [removed]. Snow, have you been on CCF and spoken with [removed]? I bet you two would have a lot in common. Maybe you could have some very interesting private conversations, or even join an atheist forum. Yes, and what's wrong with her being on there? Should I not be on here? I'm not on CCF. Or are you meaning this [removed] person on CCF not me?
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Post by Admin on Oct 4, 2023 16:20:50 GMT -5
There is a member on CCF who is also an atheist that posts and posts and posts and posts, ....... Basic fedora-hat garden variety atheist, seemingly got her ideas from a youtube video. I think her name is [removed]. Snow, have you been on CCF and spoken with [removed]? I bet you two would have a lot in common. Maybe you could have some very interesting private conversations, or even join an atheist forum. TMB is a forum for present and past members of the F&W church. F&W is a Christian church for those who either 'profess' or actually 'possess' a living faith in God and his son the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. TMB accepts (and generally values) all who have left the F&W church, including those who have left their 'Christian beliefs'. But TMB is not a forum for atheists who might have a 'pile on all believers' attitude. As you say cheryl8787, there are many other atheist forums for those so inclined to move on to. A long time ago now, this became a problem with numerous atheists on TMB seemingly getting strength and assurance for their new-found beliefs from put-downs of the Christians on here. We created a sub-board, something like 'Atheists Playground', but it didn't get much interest. Anyway, the 5 rules of TMB are plain enough, and define how we try and moderate to keep this a safe, respectful place for all present and past members of the F&W.
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Post by Admin on Oct 4, 2023 16:24:21 GMT -5
Should I not be on here? I'm not on CCF. Or are you meaning this [removed] person on CCF not me? You are (as I'm sure you know!) a very valued member of TMB snow, wonderfully insightful posts and values that align with ours (mine). And always respectful of the very wide spectrum of TMB members.
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Post by Admin on Oct 4, 2023 16:28:29 GMT -5
There is a member on CCF who is also an atheist that posts and posts and posts and posts, ....... Basic fedora-hat garden variety atheist, seemingly got her ideas from a youtube video. I think her name is [removed]. Snow, have you been on CCF and spoken with [removed]? I bet you two would have a lot in common. Maybe you could have some very interesting private conversations, or even join an atheist forum. Yes, and what's wrong with her being on there? Like you maryhig, I value and respect all the members of TMB and the way we learn (and are challenged in our faith/beliefs) by the experiences of all, both in and after the F&W (and including Cooney's branch) church.
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Post by snow on Oct 4, 2023 17:41:36 GMT -5
Should I not be on here? I'm not on CCF. Or are you meaning this [removed] person on CCF not me? You are (as I'm sure you know!) a very valued member of TMB snow, wonderfully insightful posts and values that align with ours (mine). And always respectful of the very wide spectrum of TMB members. Thank you Admin. That means a lot to me.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 4, 2023 19:35:05 GMT -5
Yes, and what's wrong with her being on there? Should I not be on here? I'm not on CCF. Or are you meaning this [removed] person on CCF not me? Eh? I think you have me wrong sorry, I mean the [removed] has every right to be on CCF, I'm asking Cheryl why [removed] shouldn't be on there? She's got every right to be on there just as much as Cheryl has.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 4, 2023 19:56:10 GMT -5
Yes, and what's wrong with her being on there? Like you maryhig, I value and respect all the members of TMB and the way we learn (and are challenged in our faith/beliefs) by the experiences of all, both in and after the F&W (and including Cooney's branch) church. Hiya! The thing is, [removed] has hardly posted on CCF, she's only just started posting a couple of days ago and she's been really respectful. She hasn't posted, post after post after post, I don't understand where Cheryl is coming from, unless I'm missing something? If Cheryl is strong enough in God then she shouldn't worry about it, she should be willing to answer any questions asked of her regardless of what people believe, atheist or not.
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Post by Dan on Oct 4, 2023 21:32:53 GMT -5
See that's where I think things go south when people say everything needed to be perfect to have what we see now. That's coming at it all backwards imo. What we see existing is the outcome of what was possible given what there was. It could have been entirely different with a different atmosphere etc. And, we'd still be saying, well how could what exists exist. It's simple. What you see is what the universe supports. Period. If the universe had different building blocks for life, what exists would be entirely different. Stating that everything must come from God because it supports what we see doesn't make sense to me. What we see is what was possible with what there was to work with. The world wasn't made for us, we are the outcome of what the world could support.
The chances of a planet being just the right size, the proper distance away from the right star, the proper atmosphere, temperatures, moon, tilt, elements, water, and everything else necessary to sustain life seems remarkably coincidental. The mathematical odds that all of these and other essential conditions happening by chance are astronomical—something like billions to one! In a vast universe, life has only been found in one place, it almost seems like it was designed that way.
What we see is what was created to make life possible. The universe may have the building blocks, but was it happenstance that all of the right elements came together in just one place? I believe it was all orchestrated by a designer, the complexities and synchronicity of everything coming together to support abundant and various life could not have been an accidental fluke that has occurred no where else in the universe.
Remove insects and life would not exist, remove animals and life would not exist, remove plants and life would not exist, change the distance from the sun or moon and life would not exist, change the rotation or the 23.5% tilt of the earths axis and life would not exist, etc.. When you put it all together, the evidence points to intelligent design and purpose. Believing it all accidentally fell in place is as much of a presupposition as crediting God.
To me, the complexity of what exist, even in a single strand of DNA, could not have been coincidental. It would be like putting all the parts of this Swiss watch into a coffee can, shaking it up, and then pouring out a perfectly engineered, assembled, and working watch.
I doubt we could comprehend God even if He explained everything in detail.
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Post by Dan on Oct 4, 2023 21:52:12 GMT -5
It's true that the exact origin of the universe is still a topic of scientific exploration and debate. The Big Bang theory is the prevailing scientific explanation for the universe's early expansion, but it is continually refined and tested. While the origin of the universe remains uncertain, it's important to note that scientific theories are based on empirical evidence and rigorous testing. The Big Bang theory is supported by a wide range of observations, such as cosmic background radiation and the distribution of galaxies. The concept of something coming from nothing is indeed a philosophical and metaphysical question. However, it's important to distinguish between scientific theories and philosophical questions. The Big Bang theory doesn't claim that something came from nothing; rather, it describes the early expansion of the universe from a dense, hot state. The idea that "something existed and didn't come from nothing" is a valid philosophical perspective, but it's not directly related to the scientific discussion about the origins of the universe. In summary, while memes can be entertaining and valuable in their own way, it's essential to consider their context and not overstate their significance. Regarding the origin of the universe, it's a complex scientific topic with ongoing research, and the Big Bang theory is the current leading explanation based on available evidence, even though it doesn't address the philosophical question of something coming from nothing. These topics can coexist without undermining each other.
That was my point, the big bang has relevance in relation to how everything may have originated. My only hang-up is that there had to be something that ignited the process.
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Post by intelchips on Oct 4, 2023 22:42:50 GMT -5
It's true that the exact origin of the universe is still a topic of scientific exploration and debate. The Big Bang theory is the prevailing scientific explanation for the universe's early expansion, but it is continually refined and tested. While the origin of the universe remains uncertain, it's important to note that scientific theories are based on empirical evidence and rigorous testing. The Big Bang theory is supported by a wide range of observations, such as cosmic background radiation and the distribution of galaxies. The concept of something coming from nothing is indeed a philosophical and metaphysical question. However, it's important to distinguish between scientific theories and philosophical questions. The Big Bang theory doesn't claim that something came from nothing; rather, it describes the early expansion of the universe from a dense, hot state. The idea that "something existed and didn't come from nothing" is a valid philosophical perspective, but it's not directly related to the scientific discussion about the origins of the universe. In summary, while memes can be entertaining and valuable in their own way, it's essential to consider their context and not overstate their significance. Regarding the origin of the universe, it's a complex scientific topic with ongoing research, and the Big Bang theory is the current leading explanation based on available evidence, even though it doesn't address the philosophical question of something coming from nothing. These topics can coexist without undermining each other.
That was my point, the big bang has relevance in relation to how everything may have originated. My only hang-up is that there had to be something that ignited the process.
I think our big bang may have been matter got too dense in another universe and broke free into ours.
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Post by Annan on Oct 5, 2023 6:01:57 GMT -5
But can't you see that there has to be a greater mind behind it all? Everything can't just appear! No, honestly I don't see a greater mind behind it all. If everything can't just appear then a god obviously can't just appear either. Earth itself we know how it was formed and the life on it is only what could be sustained by the environment that earth has to offer. The universe on the other hand is what no one can say why it exists. We understand why what exists in the universe exists, because we can trace it back to the singularity that exploded and started to expand. The Cosmic Microwave Background gives a good look at how matter was formed and continued to expand across what we now see as our universe. My dad always said we can't understand the mind of God. So there. Pbbtt!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2023 11:53:15 GMT -5
Should I not be on here? I'm not on CCF. Or are you meaning this [removed] person on CCF not me? You are (as I'm sure you know!) a very valued member of TMB snow, wonderfully insightful posts and values that align with ours (mine). And always respectful of the very wide spectrum of TMB members. I second that. Snow shows more of the Spirit of Jesus as an atheist than many believers. She's fair and respectful, even when I'm being a belligerent git!
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Post by snow on Oct 5, 2023 13:25:14 GMT -5
Should I not be on here? I'm not on CCF. Or are you meaning this [removed] person on CCF not me? Eh? I think you have me wrong sorry, I mean the [removed] has every right to be on CCF, I'm asking Cheryl why [removed] shouldn't be on there? She's got every right to be on there just as much as Cheryl has. That's what I thought you meant, but I thought I'd better ask if you were referring to [removed] or me. I agree, she has every right to be there.
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Post by snow on Oct 5, 2023 13:28:00 GMT -5
See that's where I think things go south when people say everything needed to be perfect to have what we see now. That's coming at it all backwards imo. What we see existing is the outcome of what was possible given what there was. It could have been entirely different with a different atmosphere etc. And, we'd still be saying, well how could what exists exist. It's simple. What you see is what the universe supports. Period. If the universe had different building blocks for life, what exists would be entirely different. Stating that everything must come from God because it supports what we see doesn't make sense to me. What we see is what was possible with what there was to work with. The world wasn't made for us, we are the outcome of what the world could support. The chances of a planet being just the right size, the proper distance away from the right star, the proper atmosphere, temperatures, moon, tilt, elements, water, and everything else necessary to sustain life seems remarkably coincidental. The mathematical odds that all of these and other essential conditions happening by chance are astronomical—something like billions to one! In a vast universe, life has only been found in one place, it almost seems like it was designed that way.
What we see is what was created to make life possible. The universe may have the building blocks, but was it happenstance that all of the right elements came together in just one place? I believe it was all orchestrated by a designer, the complexities and synchronicity of everything coming together to support abundant and various life could not have been an accidental fluke that has occurred no where else in the universe. Remove insects and life would not exist, remove animals and life would not exist, remove plants and life would not exist, change the distance from the sun or moon and life would not exist, change the rotation or the 23.5% tilt of the earths axis and life would not exist, etc.. When you put it all together, the evidence points to intelligent design and purpose. Believing it all accidentally fell in place is as much of a presupposition as crediting God. To me, the complexity of what exist, even in a single strand of DNA, could not have been coincidental. It would be like putting all the parts of this Swiss watch into a coffee can, shaking it up, and then pouring out a perfectly engineered, assembled, and working watch. I doubt we could comprehend God even if He explained everything in detail.
Do you actually think that earth is the only planet in all the galaxies that sustains life? The only reason why this planet sustains life as we see it is because of where it's situated. It's just one planet in a huge galaxy and because it could sustain life we are here to see it. If it didn't we wouldn't be here but possibly on another planet that does hold the prerequisites for life such as ours.
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Post by snow on Oct 5, 2023 13:30:56 GMT -5
No, honestly I don't see a greater mind behind it all. If everything can't just appear then a god obviously can't just appear either. Earth itself we know how it was formed and the life on it is only what could be sustained by the environment that earth has to offer. The universe on the other hand is what no one can say why it exists. We understand why what exists in the universe exists, because we can trace it back to the singularity that exploded and started to expand. The Cosmic Microwave Background gives a good look at how matter was formed and continued to expand across what we now see as our universe. My dad always said we can't understand the mind of God. So there. Pbbtt! Well it's pretty hard to know the mind of an non existent being so....
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Post by maryhig on Oct 5, 2023 23:29:55 GMT -5
The chances of a planet being just the right size, the proper distance away from the right star, the proper atmosphere, temperatures, moon, tilt, elements, water, and everything else necessary to sustain life seems remarkably coincidental. The mathematical odds that all of these and other essential conditions happening by chance are astronomical—something like billions to one! In a vast universe, life has only been found in one place, it almost seems like it was designed that way.
What we see is what was created to make life possible. The universe may have the building blocks, but was it happenstance that all of the right elements came together in just one place? I believe it was all orchestrated by a designer, the complexities and synchronicity of everything coming together to support abundant and various life could not have been an accidental fluke that has occurred no where else in the universe. Remove insects and life would not exist, remove animals and life would not exist, remove plants and life would not exist, change the distance from the sun or moon and life would not exist, change the rotation or the 23.5% tilt of the earths axis and life would not exist, etc.. When you put it all together, the evidence points to intelligent design and purpose. Believing it all accidentally fell in place is as much of a presupposition as crediting God. To me, the complexity of what exist, even in a single strand of DNA, could not have been coincidental. It would be like putting all the parts of this Swiss watch into a coffee can, shaking it up, and then pouring out a perfectly engineered, assembled, and working watch. I doubt we could comprehend God even if He explained everything in detail.
Do you actually think that earth is the only planet in all the galaxies that sustains life? The only reason why this planet sustains life as we see it is because of where it's situated. It's just one planet in a huge galaxy and because it could sustain life we are here to see it. If it didn't we wouldn't be here but possibly on another planet that does hold the prerequisites for life such as ours. And that's the key word, life. Life comes from life. Even nature itself shows us this. So something living must have created everything living. There's only one difference, the only time that life comes from death, is by death to self. As we die daily, (die to our old ways) then the life of God can be seen in and through us as we live by his will in our daily lives bringing his love to others.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2023 16:28:24 GMT -5
As to Christ quoting the greek? Would it be wrong to do so? It was the ENGLISH soon mandarin of its day. Think about it. Was what he quoted wrong? Didnt see that mention in the mile long post. Could be wrong.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 10, 2023 18:21:08 GMT -5
You say all that curly, but that shows me even more that there has to be a greater mind behind everything and that it's even more proof that God exists! Oh, and by the way, I don't believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, I know it's millions of years old, but I also know that God created it! And it all started off with light, let there be light! And as light was the first thing that brought everything naturally into existence, light spiritually is the first thing to enlighten the heart of people to know the living God! Actually it did not start with light. There was a significant period at the beginning where there was no light. This was prior to any star formation. If you need it, the first chapter of Genesis confirms that to be true.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 11, 2023 6:20:26 GMT -5
Admin Sorry I've just realised you removed the person's name I wrote in my post, thank you good idea, I'll be careful from now on. That will cause her less hassle. Thanks again.
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Post by Admin on Oct 11, 2023 6:39:28 GMT -5
Admin Sorry I've just realised you removed the person's name I wrote in my post, thank you good idea, I'll be careful from now on. That will cause her less hassle. Thanks again. maryhig, you were only repeating what someone else had initially posted (which is against the TMB rules, for ensuring personal safety of all TMB members). Thanks!
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