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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 30, 2023 16:39:17 GMT -5
That's the beauty of the bible. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. The result is umpteen sects and cults. Our star the sun is a third generation star. That means that it has a different chemical composition to the ones that preceded it. Some of the first and second generation stars no longer exist because they ran out of sufficient energy and exploded. The explosion hurls gases far and wide around our wee galaxy until gravity causes them to form another star or stars and planets. Therefore there was already light. There has been light for about 13.5 billion years. Our star, the sun is only 4.5 billion years old so light was not a novelty when it was formed. There's an interesting book written by a British cosmologist called "Switching on stars at the dawn of time" First Light. Emma Chapman. There are others too with similar titles. These will help you understand the science and the mathmatics behind these statements. One of the roles of the James Webb Space Telescope is to search for this first light. Now for my suggested bible study about how our planet and the others orbiting our star, the sun, still exist after the sun stopped moving. Try this experiment. Put a ball like a tennis ball on a piece of string and get yourself spinning. Not till your giddy but enough that the ball is straight out from you at the end of the piece of string. Now stop spinning and let the string go. In this experiment you are the sun, the string is gravity and the tennis ball is the earth. Let me know when your bible study reaches the point where they consider the following.: Did Plato draw inspiration from Moses or the Bible authors, or did the Bible incorporate Plato's ideas into its narratives? Does it really matter which one came first and influenced the other? Would it personally bother anyone if Plato indeed borrowed from Moses or the Bible? Some might argue that there is compelling evidence to suggest that the Bible might have drawn from Greek authors like Plato, rather than the commonly accepted idea that it was Plato who drew from Moses. One might wonder why this debate is relevant. Even if historical accuracy is not everyone's concern, it's worth noting that in the context of the rise of Jewish and Christian ideas in the Greek and Roman world, there was a significant competition of ideas, particularly regarding philosophical and historical lineage. To put it simply, if it were discovered that figures like Moses borrowed from Greek thought for their concepts of the one God and the creation of the world (assuming Moses wrote these texts, as figures like Josephus believed), it would imply that the Jewish and, by extension, Christian traditions owed a debt to pagan philosophy for their foundational ideas. This revelation would complicate matters because Greek ideas not only predate the biblical narratives, which was a significant factor, but it would also suggest that Moses or the Bible authors had to draw from Greek sources. To be blunt, it would imply that the Bible drew from Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Canaanite, and other stories that preceded it in the development of its own narratives. I'm quite happy with what you have stated. However your statement regarding "owed a debt to pagan philosphy" could be examined further. All religion is pagan. The definition of pagan is just a bit too cute and does not stand up to scrutiny. It does help the believers that the definition was written by a christian.
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Post by Dan on Sept 30, 2023 17:24:56 GMT -5
That's impossible, I'm never wrong .. Your question was; " Why aren't non believers able to participate?".. By participate, I presumed you meant verbally taking part (testimony & prayer). That's not permitted, but of course they can listen.
My point was that if someone is a nonbeliever (atheist/agnostic), why would they want to participate? What would a non-believer say about a book they don't believe? Until and unless someone makes their decision for Christ, their testimony would be in vain. Allowing someone to testify before they've professed Christ is putting the cart before the horse.
That has actually really upset me, why can't they take part verbally? How can they ask questions if they can't speak? How can you answer them or explain to them if they don't understand what you are saying and they can't ask? We are no better than them that we feel we can't allow them to speak that's awful! And if we pray, they can either join in at the end of our meeting or not it's up to them. How can you help people if they can't speak? Imagine if a non believer came to a meeting for help, they are desperate and have heard that you're people of God. They come to the house, knock on the door do you even let them in? And if they can come in, and they listen, and then they hear things that interest them and they want to ask questions as you read the Bible, what do they do as you speak to eachother, when they can't even say a word? That would be awful! I would want them to ask, I would want them to speak, I would want to help, I don't understand that at all! You would turn more people away by doing that, I honestly don't understand this at all. I think our meetings are very different to yours, everybody has a right to speak and ask and join in and we will answer as best as we can. Many don't come back because of the way we live, as following Jesus isn't isn't an easy way and there is self denial and turning from the ways of this world and building up in it. But everyone is invited to come. What do you think Jesus did? Did he preach and say right all you non believers remain quiet in the corner, or do you believe he would have wanted to talk to them and help them and answer their questions? Maybe your meetings are different to ours, do you read the Bible in the meeting or just have testimonies?
Nothing to get upset about, the Truth meetings are just more organized, its not an informal free-for-all like the meetings you attend. Its not a question and answer format, its just where each professing member participates in prayer and testimony. A non-believing attendee is not allowed get into biblical arguments with professing people, nonbelievers are not allowed to denigrate or slander the bible, they are expected to remain quiet and not disrupt the meeting with personal opinions. There's a time and place for Q & A, and the Workers are generally happy to visit with new people and answer all their questions. But in the meetings themselves, its not a back & forth exchange, one person speaks at a time in an orderly fashion. People arbitrarily yelling out questions can throw the whole meeting into chaos. That's a problem Paul addressed with the church in Corinth, "Let all things be done decently and in order." (1 Corinthians 14:40)
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Post by verna on Sept 30, 2023 17:39:06 GMT -5
Not sure. They let me join and I have been out over 40 years and am not a Christian. It just seems to me reading there that what they are recommending might harken back to Cooney’s beliefs Very interesting really. I’m tempted to mention it but I don’t comment because my nonchristian sentiments seem to seep through and I think it’s a bridge too far for them. Ok I've signed up so we'll see, I hope I've got the right site! Are they all 2x2s? Thank you 😊 I messaged one of the admins and told him a little about you (like that you’re. Cooneyite from Ireland- I think, very sincere) and he said you’re most welcome to join. So hoping you got the right site. Can’t remember how I went about joining but can inquire if it doesn’t work. It’s on the mighty app. I think the folks on this site are more progressive 2x2s and 2x2s who have left (many who have “stepped away” due to the current issues). There is a main chat and regional chats - including your neck of the woods. There are some there like me who left long ago but post who post remain Christians.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 1, 2023 0:20:13 GMT -5
That has actually really upset me, why can't they take part verbally? How can they ask questions if they can't speak? How can you answer them or explain to them if they don't understand what you are saying and they can't ask? We are no better than them that we feel we can't allow them to speak that's awful! And if we pray, they can either join in at the end of our meeting or not it's up to them. How can you help people if they can't speak? Imagine if a non believer came to a meeting for help, they are desperate and have heard that you're people of God. They come to the house, knock on the door do you even let them in? And if they can come in, and they listen, and then they hear things that interest them and they want to ask questions as you read the Bible, what do they do as you speak to eachother, when they can't even say a word? That would be awful! I would want them to ask, I would want them to speak, I would want to help, I don't understand that at all! You would turn more people away by doing that, I honestly don't understand this at all. I think our meetings are very different to yours, everybody has a right to speak and ask and join in and we will answer as best as we can. Many don't come back because of the way we live, as following Jesus isn't isn't an easy way and there is self denial and turning from the ways of this world and building up in it. But everyone is invited to come. What do you think Jesus did? Did he preach and say right all you non believers remain quiet in the corner, or do you believe he would have wanted to talk to them and help them and answer their questions? Maybe your meetings are different to ours, do you read the Bible in the meeting or just have testimonies?
Nothing to get upset about, the Truth meetings are just more organized, its not an informal free-for-all like the meetings you attend. Its not a question and answer format, its just where each professing member participates in prayer and testimony. A non-believing attendee is not allowed get into biblical arguments with professing people, nonbelievers are not allowed to denigrate or slander the bible, they are expected to remain quiet and not disrupt the meeting with personal opinions. There's a time and place for Q & A, and the Workers are generally happy to visit with new people and answer all their questions. But in the meetings themselves, its not a back & forth exchange, one person speaks at a time in an orderly fashion. People arbitrarily yelling out questions can throw the whole meeting into chaos. That's a problem Paul addressed with the church in Corinth, "Let all things be done decently and in order." (1 Corinthians 14:40)
You've got our meetings completely wrong, they are not chaotic, they are not a free for all, and we don't let anyone slate the Bible, asking questions isn't slating the Bible and why do you think those non believing want to argue? Have you ever thought they might be interested? Just because they don't believe, doesn't mean they will argue, they may never have heard the things of God before! If we are speaking then we have to have someone to explain what we are talking about if others don't understand, how can we know that they don't understand if they don't ask questions? And we do do things decently and in order. Paul also says that you have to have an interpreter for those who don't understand. And Paul also says this (below), and this is what our meetings are like. We don't just each have a testimony, but we read the Bible and discuss what we are reading in an orderly fashion so that everyone understands. 1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 14:30 IF ANY THING BE REVEALED TO ANOTHER THAT SITTETH BY, LET THE FIRST HOLD HIS PEACE . 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. By the way, it looks like Paul allowed unbelievers to attend their meetings! 1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or UNBELIEVERS, will they not say that ye are mad? 1 Corinthians 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 1, 2023 0:21:51 GMT -5
Ok I've signed up so we'll see, I hope I've got the right site! Are they all 2x2s? Thank you 😊 I messaged one of the admins and told him a little about you (like that you’re. Cooneyite from Ireland- I think, very sincere) and he said you’re most welcome to join. So hoping you got the right site. Can’t remember how I went about joining but can inquire if it doesn’t work. It’s on the mighty app. I think the folks on this site are more progressive 2x2s and 2x2s who have left (many who have “stepped away” due to the current issues). There is a main chat and regional chats - including your neck of the woods. There are some there like me who left long ago but post who post remain Christians. Thank you Verna, I have joined, I'll have to get my head around it now and have a look around the site before I say anything😊 by the way I'm in Wales UK, but my family are from Northern Ireland and many still live there.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 1, 2023 0:28:01 GMT -5
Oh my word curly, you won't believe this but I was thinking about this last night, I was thinking how I would love to talk about what I believe these verses mean on here. I was thinking about how the Bible has deeper meanings, which I said in a post on here last night to snow, but I said but I wouldn't discuss what I believe here as some things I have said in the past gets twisted by some and changed to suit their beliefs. But that verse is the one that came to me! It's not all literal curly, it's spiritual. Think about what the sun and the moon do! That's the beauty of the bible. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. The result is umpteen sects and cults. Our star the sun is a third generation star. That means that it has a different chemical composition to the ones that preceded it. Some of the first and second generation stars no longer exist because they ran out of sufficient energy and exploded. The explosion hurls gases far and wide around our wee galaxy until gravity causes them to form another star or stars and planets. Therefore there was already light. There has been light for about 13.5 billion years. Our star, the sun is only 4.5 billion years old so light was not a novelty when it was formed. There's an interesting book written by a British cosmologist called "Switching on stars at the dawn of time" First Light. Emma Chapman. There are others too with similar titles. These will help you understand the science and the mathmatics behind these statements. One of the roles of the James Webb Space Telescope is to search for this first light. Now for my suggested bible study about how our planet and the others orbiting our star, the sun, still exist after the sun stopped moving. Try this experiment. Put a ball like a tennis ball on a piece of string and get yourself spinning. Not till your giddy but enough that the ball is straight out from you at the end of the piece of string. Now stop spinning and let the string go. In this experiment you are the sun, the string is gravity and the tennis ball is the earth. You say all that curly, but that shows me even more that there has to be a greater mind behind everything and that it's even more proof that God exists! Oh, and by the way, I don't believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, I know it's millions of years old, but I also know that God created it! And it all started off with light, let there be light! And as light was the first thing that brought everything naturally into existence, light spiritually is the first thing to enlighten the heart of people to know the living God!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 1, 2023 0:43:00 GMT -5
That's the beauty of the bible. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. The result is umpteen sects and cults. Our star the sun is a third generation star. That means that it has a different chemical composition to the ones that preceded it. Some of the first and second generation stars no longer exist because they ran out of sufficient energy and exploded. The explosion hurls gases far and wide around our wee galaxy until gravity causes them to form another star or stars and planets. Therefore there was already light. There has been light for about 13.5 billion years. Our star, the sun is only 4.5 billion years old so light was not a novelty when it was formed. There's an interesting book written by a British cosmologist called "Switching on stars at the dawn of time" First Light. Emma Chapman. There are others too with similar titles. These will help you understand the science and the mathmatics behind these statements. One of the roles of the James Webb Space Telescope is to search for this first light. Now for my suggested bible study about how our planet and the others orbiting our star, the sun, still exist after the sun stopped moving. Try this experiment. Put a ball like a tennis ball on a piece of string and get yourself spinning. Not till your giddy but enough that the ball is straight out from you at the end of the piece of string. Now stop spinning and let the string go. In this experiment you are the sun, the string is gravity and the tennis ball is the earth. You say all that curly, but that shows me even more that there has to be a greater mind behind everything and that it's even more proof that God exists! Oh, and by the way, I don't believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, I know it's millions of years old, but I also know that God created it! And it all started off with light, let there be light! And as light was the first thing that brought everything naturally into existence, light spiritually is the first thing to enlighten the heart of people to know the living God! Actually it did not start with light. There was a significant period at the beginning where there was no light. This was prior to any star formation.
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Post by chuck on Oct 1, 2023 1:51:01 GMT -5
This is why its important to understand the Hebrew concept of the word G O D and how it is representative of a cultures highest ideals and is not some Greek based mythological existent being who made the earth......
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Post by maryhig on Oct 1, 2023 2:24:52 GMT -5
You say all that curly, but that shows me even more that there has to be a greater mind behind everything and that it's even more proof that God exists! Oh, and by the way, I don't believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, I know it's millions of years old, but I also know that God created it! And it all started off with light, let there be light! And as light was the first thing that brought everything naturally into existence, light spiritually is the first thing to enlighten the heart of people to know the living God! Actually it did not start with light. There was a significant period at the beginning where there was no light. This was prior to any star formation. And spiritually this is what we are all like, before we know the living God! We are In darkness. Darkness was on the face of the deep, until God said, let there be light! Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 1, 2023 2:25:24 GMT -5
This is why its important to understand the Hebrew concept of the word G O D and how it is representative of a cultures highest ideals and is not some Greek based mythological existent being who made the earth...... So who made the earth Chuck?
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Post by chuck on Oct 1, 2023 8:48:13 GMT -5
This is why its important to understand the Hebrew concept of the word G O D and how it is representative of a cultures highest ideals and is not some Greek based mythological existent being who made the earth...... So who made the earth Chuck? I highly doubt it was "made", every thing seems to point to earth is just a extraordinary planet that over billions of years has evolved into what we see today, there is nothing to suggest a "maker" was needed unless you have structured your world view as needing a "maker" then you have no option but to insert a "maker" because you have left yourself no other possibility........
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Post by maryhig on Oct 1, 2023 9:07:24 GMT -5
So who made the earth Chuck? I highly doubt it was "made", every thing seems to point to earth is just a extraordinary planet that over billions of years has evolved into what we see today, there is nothing to suggest a "maker" was needed unless you have structured your world view as needing a "maker" then you have no option but to insert a "maker" because you have left yourself no other possibility........ So does that mean that you don't believe in God?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 1, 2023 9:42:11 GMT -5
Actually it did not start with light. There was a significant period at the beginning where there was no light. This was prior to any star formation. And spiritually this is what we are all like, before we know the living God! We are In darkness. Darkness was on the face of the deep, until God said, let there be light! Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. The first verse should read...In the beginning there was hydrogen and helium. V2. And there was a sudden and violent expansion which can still be heard 13.8 billion years later via the CMB. V3 Everything in every direction was very murky for a few hundred thousand years. Etc etc. The bible version is not based on truth but is based on the vain imaginations of ignorant people.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 1, 2023 10:36:44 GMT -5
And spiritually this is what we are all like, before we know the living God! We are In darkness. Darkness was on the face of the deep, until God said, let there be light! Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. The first verse should read...In the beginning there was hydrogen and helium. V2. And there was a sudden and violent expansion which can still be heard 13.8 billion years later via the CMB. V3 Everything in every direction was very murky for a few hundred thousand years. Etc etc. The bible version is not based on truth but is based on the vain imaginations of ignorant people. So what created that explosion?
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Post by maryhig on Oct 1, 2023 11:23:54 GMT -5
In our meetings they would be allowed to listen and speak, when I said listen in the post that you mean, I mean listen as in take it in to their hearts. How can we explain to people what we mean if they can't speak or ask questions? Not sure. They let me join and I have been out over 40 years and am not a Christian. It just seems to me reading there that what they are recommending might harken back to Cooney’s beliefs Very interesting really. I’m tempted to mention it but I don’t comment because my nonchristian sentiments seem to seep through and I think it’s a bridge too far for them. I've joined and introduced myself, I hope you will also speak. If they belong to God then they will be able to answer your questions. Thanks for telling me about that site. 😊
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Post by Dan on Oct 1, 2023 11:47:42 GMT -5
And spiritually this is what we are all like, before we know the living God! We are In darkness. Darkness was on the face of the deep, until God said, let there be light! Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. The first verse should read...In the beginning there was hydrogen and helium. V2. And there was a sudden and violent expansion which can still be heard 13.8 billion years later via the CMB. V3 Everything in every direction was very murky for a few hundred thousand years. Etc etc. The bible version is not based on truth but is based on the vain imaginations of ignorant people.
"In the beginning there was hydrogen and helium".. Science says that from nothing, nothing comes. So your back to square one, where did hydrogen and helium come from? What was the source of this anomaly?
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Post by Dan on Oct 1, 2023 12:13:01 GMT -5
Nothing to get upset about, the Truth meetings are just more organized, its not an informal free-for-all like the meetings you attend. Its not a question and answer format, its just where each professing member participates in prayer and testimony. A non-believing attendee is not allowed get into biblical arguments with professing people, nonbelievers are not allowed to denigrate or slander the bible, they are expected to remain quiet and not disrupt the meeting with personal opinions. There's a time and place for Q & A, and the Workers are generally happy to visit with new people and answer all their questions. But in the meetings themselves, its not a back & forth exchange, one person speaks at a time in an orderly fashion. People arbitrarily yelling out questions can throw the whole meeting into chaos. That's a problem Paul addressed with the church in Corinth, "Let all things be done decently and in order." (1 Corinthians 14:40)
You've got our meetings completely wrong, they are not chaotic, they are not a free for all, and we don't let anyone slate the Bible, asking questions isn't slating the Bible and why do you think those non believing want to argue? Have you ever thought they might be interested? Just because they don't believe, doesn't mean they will argue, they may never have heard the things of God before! If we are speaking then we have to have someone to explain what we are talking about if others don't understand, how can we know that they don't understand if they don't ask questions? And we do do things decently and in order. Paul also says that you have to have an interpreter for those who don't understand. And Paul also says this (below), and this is what our meetings are like. We don't just each have a testimony, but we read the Bible and discuss what we are reading in an orderly fashion so that everyone understands. 1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 14:30 IF ANY THING BE REVEALED TO ANOTHER THAT SITTETH BY, LET THE FIRST HOLD HIS PEACE . 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. By the way, it looks like Paul allowed unbelievers to attend their meetings! 1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or UNBELIEVERS, will they not say that ye are mad? 1 Corinthians 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all.
If it works for you, that's cool, I was just explaining the differences between our meetings and yours. Yes, Jesus answered a lot of questions, but not during the Sermon on the Mount. If a member is trying to make a point or explain a biblical passage, but keeps getting interrupted with questions, it can be problematic. If a group is getting together for a bible study, then I'd agree with you that its helpful to ask & answer questions. But in a more formal gathering, its better not to have a back & forth discussion, Paul also said, "If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home" (1 Corinthians 14:35), so apparently the people shouting out questions were being disruptive.
And what if an atheist or satanist enters your meeting and they have no interest in anything you believe? Instead, their questions are designed to ridicule and challenge believers. Most 'nonbelievers' have already made a choice and aren't genuinely interested, so until they have a change of heart, I feel its better for them to listen and not take part, because anything they say would not be edifying or inspirational. It would be like Jesus taking questions from the Pharisees, which usually ended with them picking-up stones and Jesus running for his life.
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Post by snow on Oct 1, 2023 12:45:49 GMT -5
No one knows why anything exists. Adding a God into the equation just begs the question, how did God exist? And, which God was it since their have been thousands of ideas about Gods. God coming from nothing or existing forever is no different than science saying everything came from nothing or existed forever in a never ending cycle. Both can't be proven. We simply do not know. And, it depends on which sacred book you read on how the individual gods created things that form what people believe.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 1, 2023 13:44:52 GMT -5
The first verse should read...In the beginning there was hydrogen and helium. V2. And there was a sudden and violent expansion which can still be heard 13.8 billion years later via the CMB. V3 Everything in every direction was very murky for a few hundred thousand years. Etc etc. The bible version is not based on truth but is based on the vain imaginations of ignorant people.
"In the beginning there was hydrogen and helium".. Science says that from nothing, nothing comes. So your back to square one, where did hydrogen and helium come from? What was the source of this anomaly?
No reputable scientist has ever said that there was nothing in the beginning. This is a statement by the religious seeking to discredit science. What scientists have said is that they do not know anything about what occurred prior to the inflationary event. They do know what was set in motion during that event and what chemicals were contained in it. You are perfectly capable of studying this but you seem to avoid doing so. Possibly because it will shake your faith to its core when you realize that there is no eternity. I hope you have a good day Dan and don't need any medication to keep you going that science has provided.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 1, 2023 13:45:41 GMT -5
You've got our meetings completely wrong, they are not chaotic, they are not a free for all, and we don't let anyone slate the Bible, asking questions isn't slating the Bible and why do you think those non believing want to argue? Have you ever thought they might be interested? Just because they don't believe, doesn't mean they will argue, they may never have heard the things of God before! If we are speaking then we have to have someone to explain what we are talking about if others don't understand, how can we know that they don't understand if they don't ask questions? And we do do things decently and in order. Paul also says that you have to have an interpreter for those who don't understand. And Paul also says this (below), and this is what our meetings are like. We don't just each have a testimony, but we read the Bible and discuss what we are reading in an orderly fashion so that everyone understands. 1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 14:30 IF ANY THING BE REVEALED TO ANOTHER THAT SITTETH BY, LET THE FIRST HOLD HIS PEACE . 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. By the way, it looks like Paul allowed unbelievers to attend their meetings! 1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or UNBELIEVERS, will they not say that ye are mad? 1 Corinthians 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all.
If it works for you, that's cool, I was just explaining the differences between our meetings and yours. Yes, Jesus answered a lot of questions, but not during the Sermon on the Mount. If a member is trying to make a point or explain a biblical passage, but keeps getting interrupted with questions, it can be problematic. If a group is getting together for a bible study, then I'd agree with you that its helpful to ask & answer questions. But in a more formal gathering, its better not to have a back & forth discussion, Paul also said, "If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home" (1 Corinthians 14:35), so apparently the people shouting out questions were being disruptive.
And what if an atheist or satanist enters your meeting and they have no interest in anything you believe? Instead, their questions are designed to ridicule and challenge believers. Most 'nonbelievers' have already made a choice and aren't genuinely interested, so until they have a change of heart, I feel its better for them to listen and not take part, because anything they say would not be edifying or inspirational. It would be like Jesus taking questions from the Pharisees, which usually ended with them picking-up stones and Jesus running for his life.
We really don't shout questions, we talk in an orderly manner. And the pharasees knew the ways of God, that's why Jesus told them straight, and they didn't like what he said to them, that's why they tried to kill him, they saw themselves as holier than thou, and Jesus put them right. But, many who are non believers have never heard the things of God. And if anyone is disruptive we would have to deal with that at the time. But so far it's never been that bad. And if they weren't genuinely interested then I don't think they would take the time to come to our meeting.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 1, 2023 13:47:02 GMT -5
No one knows why anything exists. Adding a God into the equation just begs the question, how did God exist? And, which God was it since their have been thousands of ideas about Gods. God coming from nothing or existing forever is no different than science saying everything came from nothing or existed forever in a never ending cycle. Both can't be proven. We simply do not know. And, it depends on which sacred book you read on how the individual gods created things that form what people believe. But can't you see that there has to be a greater mind behind it all? Everything can't just appear!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 1, 2023 13:52:13 GMT -5
The first verse should read...In the beginning there was hydrogen and helium. V2. And there was a sudden and violent expansion which can still be heard 13.8 billion years later via the CMB. V3 Everything in every direction was very murky for a few hundred thousand years. Etc etc. The bible version is not based on truth but is based on the vain imaginations of ignorant people. So what created that explosion? No one knows. And reputable scientists admit that. Contrast that with the cock and bull stories that have been concocted by the thousand. Your biblical one included. It would have been more honest of those early witch doctors like the early writers in the bible to say that they did not know why the earth was so and why the sun came up in the east. An honest person would admit that and a wise one would also say that they would look into it, do some experiments and see what happens. That's how science works. Your bible tells us much the same as what any other culture said. None of which can be verified. Before you come back at me with your god stuff do yourself a favour and start reading some science about it.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 1, 2023 13:54:33 GMT -5
So what created that explosion? No one knows. And reputable scientists admit that. Contrast that with the cock and bull stories that have been concocted by the thousand. Your biblical one included. It would have been more honest of those early witch doctors like the early writers in the bible to say that they did not know why the earth was so and why the sun came up in the east. An honest person would admit that and a wise one would also say that they would look into it, do some experiments and see what happens. That's how science works. Your bible tells us much the same as what any other culture said. None of which can be verified. Before you come back at me with your god stuff do yourself a favour and start reading some science about it. But curly, surely a greater mind must be behind creation, even the way everything is made is amazing there has to be a greater mind behind it. It can't just happen!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 1, 2023 13:59:24 GMT -5
No one knows. And reputable scientists admit that. Contrast that with the cock and bull stories that have been concocted by the thousand. Your biblical one included. It would have been more honest of those early witch doctors like the early writers in the bible to say that they did not know why the earth was so and why the sun came up in the east. An honest person would admit that and a wise one would also say that they would look into it, do some experiments and see what happens. That's how science works. Your bible tells us much the same as what any other culture said. None of which can be verified. Before you come back at me with your god stuff do yourself a favour and start reading some science about it. But curly, surely a greater mind must be behind creation, even the way everything is made is amazing there has to be a greater mind behind it. It can't just happen! That's not the scientific approach and in fact stifles scientific exploration. It is god of the gaps stuff which soothes minds and beliefs but at its root is plain dishonest and lazy.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 1, 2023 14:01:57 GMT -5
But curly, surely a greater mind must be behind creation, even the way everything is made is amazing there has to be a greater mind behind it. It can't just happen! That's not the scientific approach and in fact stifles scientific exploration. It is god of the gaps stuff which soothes minds and beliefs but at its root is plain dishonest and lazy. It's not lazy to believe in God when there is so much evidence everywhere around us. I know he's there!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 1, 2023 14:13:11 GMT -5
That's not the scientific approach and in fact stifles scientific exploration. It is god of the gaps stuff which soothes minds and beliefs but at its root is plain dishonest and lazy. It's not lazy to believe in God when there is so much evidence everywhere around us. I know he's there! Good for you. However I have already pointed out to you that the evidence is there was only hydrogen and helium in the beginning. That contrasts with your bible which says that the earth was without form and void etc. Our planet earth was not even around at the beginning. There was a gap of around 9 billion years in which stars had formed and died and reformed as other stars. There is solid scientific evidence for that. The chronological order of the bible version is laughable. Firstly your god creates day and night. later it creates the sun and the moon. That is just one example of the silliness of the story. Another is the creation of the stars after the creation of earth. We now know, no thanks to the bible, that there were stars for 9 billion years before the earth was formed. I could go on but I do not want to damage your faith that there is an eternal life.
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Post by Pragmatic on Oct 1, 2023 14:54:45 GMT -5
Simple fact is, we don't know, we weren't there.
The first five books in the Bible were largely written by Moses to explain things to the people of his area at the time. (The Jews, largely)
Pre-dating all this, were the Torres Strait Islanders, and the Chinese, and others, with their own history.
So in the end, it call comes down to belief, and belief is a very powerful thing. It imbues people with the "I know" mentality, when in fact they don't know, they just believe.
Our minds simply do not grasp the concept of universality. Stephen Hawking tried to explain things mathematically in his first book, then in his second book, made significant modifications to his theory, proving that no matter how sharp our minds are, we just don't know.
He did say however, "Before we understand science, it is natural to believe that God created the universe. But now science offers a more convincing explanation."
The way our mind works is, if God created it all, how did he get there, and then again it comes down to, we just don't know.
What we can know is how the basic building blocks of life are built though, and science tells us this. Therefore what preceded this is just the label we choose to give it. God, science, Jehovah, Allah, big bang. But then what preceded this?
And again, it just comes down to what we choose to believe.
The astronauts who went to the moon had the privilege of seeing and experiencing far more than any other human. Based on the psyche of them, it affected them differently. Some deepened their belief in God, others science of varying forms.
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Post by snow on Oct 1, 2023 15:20:53 GMT -5
"In the beginning there was hydrogen and helium".. Science says that from nothing, nothing comes. So your back to square one, where did hydrogen and helium come from? What was the source of this anomaly?
No reputable scientist has ever said that there was nothing in the beginning. This is a statement by the religious seeking to discredit science. What scientists have said is that they do not know anything about what occurred prior to the inflationary event. They do know what was set in motion during that event and what chemicals were contained in it. You are perfectly capable of studying this but you seem to avoid doing so. Possibly because it will shake your faith to its core when you realize that there is no eternity. I hope you have a good day Dan and don't need any medication to keep you going that science has provided. In all fairness the religions that say science says that probably comes from Lawrence Krauss' book that he labeled 'A Universe from Nothing'. But if you actually read the book he doesn't say that the Universe came from nothing. He says it comes from Relativistic Quantum Fields, which are hardly nothing. He has been criticked about his misuse of the word 'nothing' by his peers because he obviously doesn't say the universe comes from nothing when he talks about flat expanding for example. I read the book and while I didn't understand a lot of the physics of it, I did get the gist of it. He dwells a lot on particle physics and he doesn't go into why the laws of physics exist. It's a good read though to understand what cosmology and astrophysics does tell us and what we know so far.
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