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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2023 23:25:55 GMT -5
Plain message among several, keep moving forward with Christ.
2024 studies are out.
Book of John Book of Ester Book of Romans Book of Galatians
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Post by fixit on Sept 11, 2023 0:40:26 GMT -5
Watching some of Dr Diane Langberg's videos and discussing it over coffee would be a good use of Wed evening time. Titles like:
Counselling Victims of Sexual Abuse
The Church's Role in Helping Victims of Sexual Abuse and Trauma
Church Abuse: Protecting Ministries, Destroying Souls
Narcissism and the Systems It Breeds
Understanding Abuse of Power in the Church
The Use and Misuse of Authority in Christian Leadership
etc.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2023 19:27:52 GMT -5
Why stop bible studies? Are we not capable of having another meeting too?
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Post by fixit on Sept 12, 2023 17:33:46 GMT -5
Why stop bible studies? Are we not capable of having another meeting too? The bible studies chosen by workers have not been working very well.
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help
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Life Member "Australian Order of Old Bastards" AOOB.
Posts: 841
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Post by help on Sept 12, 2023 18:48:07 GMT -5
It was never a bible study at a Wednesday night 2x2 meeting. Just another meeting with each person putting in their pennyworth, in turn, in the normal meeting formal way. Never any discussion, or in depth examination. No clear interpretation of scripture ever reached.
We were fortunate enough to attend a proper bible study after leaving the 2x2's. Took the form of an informal debate, where the actual meaning of that portion of scripture was teased out due to a spontaneous group effort. We learnt more about scripture at those bible studies than we ever did at 2x2 meetings.
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Post by snow on Sept 13, 2023 12:41:39 GMT -5
It was never a bible study at a Wednesday night 2x2 meeting. Just another meeting with each person putting in their pennyworth, in turn, in the normal meeting formal way. Never any discussion, or in depth examination. No clear interpretation of scripture ever reached. We were fortunate enough to attend a proper bible study after leaving the 2x2's. Took the form of an informal debate, where the actual meaning of that portion of scripture was teased out due to a spontaneous group effort. We learnt more about scripture at those bible studies than we ever did at 2x2 meetings. So true. A real bible study would be everyone discussing that particular chapter instead of just standing up individually saying what they think of it. No one knew what it actually meant although some probably were closer to the right interpretation than others, but a discussion would have made it far more productive imo.
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Post by Pragmatic on Sept 14, 2023 18:41:40 GMT -5
It was never a bible study at a Wednesday night 2x2 meeting. Just another meeting with each person putting in their pennyworth, in turn, in the normal meeting formal way. Never any discussion, or in depth examination. No clear interpretation of scripture ever reached. We were fortunate enough to attend a proper bible study after leaving the 2x2's. Took the form of an informal debate, where the actual meaning of that portion of scripture was teased out due to a spontaneous group effort. We learnt more about scripture at those bible studies than we ever did at 2x2 meetings. So true. A real bible study would be everyone discussing that particular chapter instead of just standing up individually saying what they think of it. No one knew what it actually meant although some probably were closer to the right interpretation than others, but a discussion would have made it far more productive imo. Yup, along the lines of, "I too enjoyed the chapter where it says that "paraphrased" (rinse and repeat) And I thought about that too, and enjoyed what has been spoken. I too, want to be one that would be found doing that which is what right, and be faithful......3 minutes chewed up with much paraphrasing, ums and aahs, and rocking on the feet with some pauses for effect. And no one is any the wiser for what has been said, but oh, it was good to be there!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 14, 2023 21:54:23 GMT -5
So true. A real bible study would be everyone discussing that particular chapter instead of just standing up individually saying what they think of it. No one knew what it actually meant although some probably were closer to the right interpretation than others, but a discussion would have made it far more productive imo. Yup, along the lines of, "I too enjoyed the chapter where it says that "paraphrased" (rinse and repeat) And I thought about that too, and enjoyed what has been spoken. I too, want to be one that would be found doing that which is what right, and be faithful......3 minutes chewed up with much paraphrasing, ums and aahs, and rocking on the feet with some pauses for effect. And no one is any the wiser for what has been said, but oh, it was good to be there!
The educational bit was always after the final hymn when the drought and the flood could be discussed, how the cows were milking, or as Walter Franks said at Ngaere once, discussing the gods bailum and milkum. Peggy's pregnancy might come up too and these days there may be mutterings about those dreadfully bitter exes and the trouble they are making for the rapists and the kiddy fkers who should be left to preach the gospel and bring cheer to lonely housewifes while hubby is at work.
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Post by Pragmatic on Sept 14, 2023 21:58:13 GMT -5
Ha Ha - you're on fire today mate
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2023 23:47:18 GMT -5
Why stop bible studies? Are we not capable of having another meeting too? The bible studies chosen by workers have not been working very well. For everyone? Yeah right...maybe you ain't getting anything out of it but some others are...
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Post by margaret on Sept 18, 2023 19:20:09 GMT -5
The bible studies chosen by workers have not been working very well. For everyone? Yeah right...maybe you ain't getting anything out of it but some others are... Whatever you’re “getting” isn’t making you more useful or humble or helpful.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2023 19:42:29 GMT -5
For everyone? Yeah right...maybe you ain't getting anything out of it but some others are... Whatever you’re “getting” isn’t making you more useful or humble or helpful. NAMI they can help, give them a call.
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Post by fdwmaw on Sept 21, 2023 14:23:15 GMT -5
Our Wednesday night bible studies in the past consisted of each person reading a few verses from the chapter to be studied and then we would share thoughts from the chapter. My ideal bible study would be as follows: Opening prayer from one person in attendance, opening hymn which may or may not be selected from "Hymns Old and New" accompanied with a piano, read the chapter (all those in attendance will read a few verses and not just those who are professing, and this will include the children who can read), each person in attendance will share thoughts concerning the chapter (non-professing in attendance can share), you are not limited to only one comment as you can add comments during the study), closing hymn. This format will allow guests to attend the study and participate. Anyone that would be uncomfortable reading could pass on the reading to allow for those with limited eyesight, can't read, etc.
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Post by intelchips on Sept 21, 2023 14:43:15 GMT -5
Our Wednesday night bible studies in the past consisted of each person reading a few verses from the chapter to be studied and then we would share thoughts from the chapter. My ideal bible study would be as follows: Opening prayer from one person in attendance, opening hymn which may or may not be selected from "Hymns Old and New" accompanied with a piano, read the chapter (all those in attendance will read a few verses and not just those who are professing, and this will include the children who can read), each person in attendance will share thoughts concerning the chapter (non-professing in attendance can share), you are not limited to only one comment as you can add comments during the study), closing hymn. This format will allow guests to attend the study and participate. Anyone that would be uncomfortable reading could pass on the reading to allow for those with limited eyesight, can't read, etc. Well, you invited non-professing in and this is the result: when my turn came around, I would ask about the following. Why does Jesus, an Aramaic-speaking lower-class individual, quote the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible? This raises a curious anomaly where Jesus seems to employ the words of the Septuagint (LXX) rather than the Hebrew text. This deviation from what one might expect challenges the assumption that Jesus had a rabbinical background and primarily spoke in Aramaic, a view held by most contemporary scholars. Additionally, it has been widely accepted that Jesus did not speak Greek, further deepening the mystery surrounding the absence of Aramaic or Aramaic-influenced teachings attributed to him. (It's worth noting that the idea that some Gospels were originally composed in Aramaic is no longer considered tenable.) I once asked Eldon pretty much this same question and he said he was too busy to waste time answering that type of question. He said, "to many souls need saving."
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Post by snow on Sept 21, 2023 16:50:28 GMT -5
Our Wednesday night bible studies in the past consisted of each person reading a few verses from the chapter to be studied and then we would share thoughts from the chapter. My ideal bible study would be as follows: Opening prayer from one person in attendance, opening hymn which may or may not be selected from "Hymns Old and New" accompanied with a piano, read the chapter (all those in attendance will read a few verses and not just those who are professing, and this will include the children who can read), each person in attendance will share thoughts concerning the chapter (non-professing in attendance can share), you are not limited to only one comment as you can add comments during the study), closing hymn. This format will allow guests to attend the study and participate. Anyone that would be uncomfortable reading could pass on the reading to allow for those with limited eyesight, can't read, etc. Well, you invited non-professing in and this is the result: when my turn came around, I would ask about the following. Why does Jesus, an Aramaic-speaking lower-class individual, quote the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible? This raises a curious anomaly where Jesus seems to employ the words of the Septuagint (LXX) rather than the Hebrew text. This deviation from what one might expect challenges the assumption that Jesus had a rabbinical background and primarily spoke in Aramaic, a view held by most contemporary scholars. Additionally, it has been widely accepted that Jesus did not speak Greek, further deepening the mystery surrounding the absence of Aramaic or Aramaic-influenced teachings attributed to him. (It's worth noting that the idea that some Gospels were originally composed in Aramaic is no longer considered tenable.) I once asked Eldon pretty much this same question and he said he was too busy to waste time answering that type of question. He said, "to many souls need saving." Souls that may or may not exist if Jesus never existed and therefore Christianity is just another manmade religion like all the rest. Don't look into what you believe, just believe it the way it's been taught to you. Islam is not different.
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Post by Dan on Sept 21, 2023 20:50:17 GMT -5
each person in attendance will share thoughts concerning the chapter (non-professing in attendance can share) Well, you invited non-professing in and this is the result:
when my turn came around, I would ask about the following. Why does Jesus, an Aramaic-speaking lower-class individual, quote the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible?
And that's why its set-up the way it is and non-believers aren't allowed to participate. I think the bible studies work fine the way they are.. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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Post by Admin on Sept 21, 2023 22:36:19 GMT -5
Our Wednesday night bible studies in the past consisted of each person reading a few verses from the chapter to be studied and then we would share thoughts from the chapter. My ideal bible study would be as follows: Opening prayer from one person in attendance, opening hymn which may or may not be selected from "Hymns Old and New" accompanied with a piano, read the chapter (all those in attendance will read a few verses and not just those who are professing, and this will include the children who can read), each person in attendance will share thoughts concerning the chapter (non-professing in attendance can share), you are not limited to only one comment as you can add comments during the study), closing hymn. This format will allow guests to attend the study and participate. Anyone that would be uncomfortable reading could pass on the reading to allow for those with limited eyesight, can't read, etc. Sounds great, send me an invite when you get it set up! Important that all are welcome, not just those who are 'professing'. In fact, I'd welcome non-believers (in Christianity), like intelchips and snow - their views and challenging questions are how we can grow personally. The format you suggest would be great for growing to maturity as real and practical Christians.
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Post by Admin on Sept 21, 2023 22:51:26 GMT -5
Souls that may or may not exist if Jesus never existed and therefore Christianity is just another manmade religion like all the rest. Don't look into what you believe, just believe it the way it's been taught to you. Islam is not different. 'IF' Jesus never existed... That's a big 'IF', and pretty important to get the answer right. Islam of course differs in response to the question, 'if' Jesus did exist, who is he? I'm interested snow in your view of how this whole 'reality' of the physical universe including our world and all of nature came into being. Assuming you reject the idea of any vastly superior power or wisdom, that likely includes dimensions that we're simply oblivious to, locked as we are from birth in this physical 'reality' that is all that we can possibly see and understand scientifically.
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Post by Admin on Sept 21, 2023 22:53:10 GMT -5
And that's why its set-up the way it is and non-believers aren't allowed to participate. I think the bible studies work fine the way they are.. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Maybe not broke (but that's arguable), but could it be greatly improved?
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 21, 2023 23:04:14 GMT -5
each person in attendance will share thoughts concerning the chapter (non-professing in attendance can share) Well, you invited non-professing in and this is the result:
when my turn came around, I would ask about the following. Why does Jesus, an Aramaic-speaking lower-class individual, quote the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible? And that's why its set-up the way it is and non-believers aren't allowed to participate. I think the bible studies work fine the way they are.. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
It's actually intended to be more of a pep rally than a "study". One Wednesday meeting I spoke about the first verse in the next chapter and it really played havoc with what most of the others had already said. I didn't get chastised that time, though.
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help
Senior Member
Life Member "Australian Order of Old Bastards" AOOB.
Posts: 841
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Post by help on Sept 22, 2023 16:54:57 GMT -5
I must admit I did benefit greatly from a Wednesday night meeting. One hot night in February, my now beautiful Wife came floating in wearing a flowing summer dress, regulation length of course. She sat opposite me with those gorgeous legs prominent. That was it, I just had to find out more. A short time later I made my move and swept her off her feet. 62 years later I am still forever grateful for that Wednesday night meeting.
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Post by Admin on Sept 23, 2023 7:17:29 GMT -5
I must admit I did benefit greatly from a Wednesday night meeting. One hot night in February, my now beautiful Wife came floating in wearing a flowing summer dress, regulation length of course. She sat opposite me with those gorgeous legs prominent. That was it, I just had to find out more. A short time later I made my move and swept her off her feet. 62 years later I am still forever grateful for that Wednesday night meeting. help, the Lord works in mysterious ways indeed! Great little story...
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Post by snow on Sept 26, 2023 13:19:03 GMT -5
Souls that may or may not exist if Jesus never existed and therefore Christianity is just another manmade religion like all the rest. Don't look into what you believe, just believe it the way it's been taught to you. Islam is not different. 'IF' Jesus never existed... That's a big 'IF', and pretty important to get the answer right. Islam of course differs in response to the question, 'if' Jesus did exist, who is he? I'm interested snow in your view of how this whole 'reality' of the physical universe including our world and all of nature came into being. Assuming you reject the idea of any vastly superior power or wisdom, that likely includes dimensions that we're simply oblivious to, locked as we are from birth in this physical 'reality' that is all that we can possibly see and understand scientifically. Yes you're right. It's a pretty important 'if' to know if Jesus ever really existed as a flesh and blood person. The concept of Jesus was quite common back in various religions back in those years, before and after, Christ's saga. What do I think of the physical universe? I presume you mean how did it all happen? I know that there was a singularity that exploded and we are able to measure how long it's been in time since that explosion by reading the Cosmic Microwave radiation. So we know what started our universe and how it progressed to what we now see, but no one knows why there was a singularity in the first place. More scientists lean more and more towards there being more universes than just our universe. But how it all came to exist in the first place I have no idea and I don't think anyone does. However, that doesn't mean that we automatically decide that our particular religions god created it all. That doesn't make sense to me because then we are left trying to understand where that being came from. If we just say that he always existed, then it's really no different then saying that universes have expanded and then decreased to a singularity and exploded again over and over. We don't need a God to actually be involved. Especially a personal God that sends us to heaven or hell. That makes no sense to me. If there is something that has created all of this that we are a part of, I would be more inclined to lean towards an energy that creates matter. But then you run into the question 'where did the energy originate from'. So my view of where it all came from is "I don't know". It exists, I exist, but I rather doubt anyone will ever know why it exists or why they exist other than the biological processes that create life in our particular universe. www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/Herschel/Cosmic_Microwave_Background_CMB_radiation#:~:text=The%20Cosmic%20Microwave%20Background%20(CMB,shockwave'%20of%20the%20Big%20Bang.
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Post by Admin on Sept 26, 2023 16:56:59 GMT -5
What do I think of the physical universe? I presume you mean how did it all happen? I know that there was a singularity that exploded and we are able to measure how long it's been in time since that explosion by reading the Cosmic Microwave radiation. So we know what started our universe and how it progressed to what we now see, but no one knows why there was a singularity in the first place. More scientists lean more and more towards there being more universes than just our universe. But how it all came to exist in the first place I have no idea and I don't think anyone does. However, that doesn't mean that we automatically decide that our particular religions god created it all. That doesn't make sense to me because then we are left trying to understand where that being came from. If we just say that he always existed, then it's really no different then saying that universes have expanded and then decreased to a singularity and exploded again over and over. We don't need a God to actually be involved. Especially a personal God that sends us to heaven or hell. That makes no sense to me. If there is something that has created all of this that we are a part of, I would be more inclined to lean towards an energy that creates matter. But then you run into the question 'where did the energy originate from'. So my view of where it all came from is "I don't know". It exists, I exist, but I rather doubt anyone will ever know why it exists or why they exist other than the biological processes that create life in our particular universe. www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/Herschel/Cosmic_Microwave_Background_CMB_radiation#:~:text=The%20Cosmic%20Microwave%20Background%20(CMB,shockwave'%20of%20the%20Big%20Bang. Thanks snow, you've encapsulated a very long period of time (13.8 billion years, actually) very succinctly! We're on the same page, as far as the science goes. Have you ever pondered time, what it really is? Which brings us to life... all too complicated and complex for my brain, at this stage of the day (maybe we could start up a "philosopher's thread" here on TMB?? )
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Post by snow on Sept 26, 2023 17:09:15 GMT -5
What do I think of the physical universe? I presume you mean how did it all happen? I know that there was a singularity that exploded and we are able to measure how long it's been in time since that explosion by reading the Cosmic Microwave radiation. So we know what started our universe and how it progressed to what we now see, but no one knows why there was a singularity in the first place. More scientists lean more and more towards there being more universes than just our universe. But how it all came to exist in the first place I have no idea and I don't think anyone does. However, that doesn't mean that we automatically decide that our particular religions god created it all. That doesn't make sense to me because then we are left trying to understand where that being came from. If we just say that he always existed, then it's really no different then saying that universes have expanded and then decreased to a singularity and exploded again over and over. We don't need a God to actually be involved. Especially a personal God that sends us to heaven or hell. That makes no sense to me. If there is something that has created all of this that we are a part of, I would be more inclined to lean towards an energy that creates matter. But then you run into the question 'where did the energy originate from'. So my view of where it all came from is "I don't know". It exists, I exist, but I rather doubt anyone will ever know why it exists or why they exist other than the biological processes that create life in our particular universe. www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/Herschel/Cosmic_Microwave_Background_CMB_radiation#:~:text=The%20Cosmic%20Microwave%20Background%20(CMB,shockwave'%20of%20the%20Big%20Bang. Thanks snow, you've encapsulated a very long period of time (13.8 billion years, actually) very succinctly! We're on the same page, as far as the science goes. Have you ever pondered time, what it really is? Which brings us to life... all too complicated and complex for my brain, at this stage of the day (maybe we could start up a "philosopher's thread" here on TMB?? ) I'm with you on that. The concept of time, especially infinity, just is so hard to wrap my mind around. Thinking of anything in terms or eternity, is probably completely out of our grasp to understand completely. That's why I often say that anything we do forever would at some point seem like hell... Time as we measure it seems so precise. But how we really experience time is not. Something happening fast in front of us can seem like it takes forever for example. Watching an inevitable car crash comes to mind. Everything seems to go into slow motion. Looking back at my life it seems to have gone so quickly and yet 17 seems to long ago, almost like a different life time. Also, time is experienced differently in space and how fast we are travelling. For example astronauts in space age a little more slowly. And if we are one hour near earth it would be experienced as one hour in space, but if one hour near a black hole is experienced as 7-8 years depending on the size of the black hole. So time is an illusion in many ways. How we measure it on earth though, works for our purposes.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 26, 2023 23:00:47 GMT -5
Thanks snow , you've encapsulated a very long period of time (13.8 billion years, actually) very succinctly! We're on the same page, as far as the science goes. Have you ever pondered time, what it really is? Which brings us to life... all too complicated and complex for my brain, at this stage of the day (maybe we could start up a "philosopher's thread" here on TMB?? ) I'm with you on that. The concept of time, especially infinity, just is so hard to wrap my mind around. Thinking of anything in terms or eternity, is probably completely out of our grasp to understand completely. That's why I often say that anything we do forever would at some point seem like hell... Time as we measure it seems so precise. But how we really experience time is not. Something happening fast in front of us can seem like it takes forever for example. Watching an inevitable car crash comes to mind. Everything seems to go into slow motion. Looking back at my life it seems to have gone so quickly and yet 17 seems to long ago, almost like a different life time. Also, time is experienced differently in space and how fast we are travelling. For example astronauts in space age a little more slowly. And if we are one hour near earth it would be experienced as one hour in space, but if one hour near a black hole is experienced as 7-8 years depending on the size of the black hole. So time is an illusion in many ways. How we measure it on earth though, works for our purposes. Time and space are interchangeable according to Einsteins Special Relativity. It's a bit above my lunch box but here's a link. www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_relativity_spacetime.htmlAnother corollary of special relativity is that, in effect, one person’s interval of space is another person’s interval of both time and space, and one person’s interval of time is also another person’s interval of both space and time. Thus, space and time are effectively interchangeable, and fundamentally the same thing (or at least two different sides of the same coin), an effect which becomes much more noticeable at relativistic speeds approaching the speed of light. Einstein’s former mathematics professor, Hermann Minkowski, was perhaps the first to note this effect (and perhaps understood it even better than Einstein himself), and it was he who coined the phrase “space-time” to describe the interchangeability of the four dimensions. In 1908, Minkowski offered a useful analogy to help explain how four-dimensional space-time can appear differently to two observers in our normal three-dimensional space. He described two observers viewing a three-dimensional object from different angles, and noting that, for example, the length and width can appear different from the different viewpoints, due to what we call perspective, even though the object is clearly one and the same in three dimensions. The path taken by an object in both space and time is known as the space-time interval - click for larger version The path taken by an object in both space and time is known as the space-time interval Special_Relativity/Spacetime) The idea perhaps becomes even clearer when we consider that our picture of the Moon is actually what the Moon was like 1¼ seconds ago (the time light takes to reach the Earth from the Moon), our picture of the Sun is actually how it looked 8½ minutes ago, and by the time we see an image of Alpha Centauri, our nearest star system, it is already 4.3 years out of date. We can therefore never know what the universe is like at this very instant, and the universe is clearly not a thing that extends just in space, but in space-time. Due to the relativistic effects of time dilation, our idea of “now” is therefore something of a fictitious concept, one which we as humans have invented for ourselves, but for which nature itself has no real use. Physicists do not regard time as “passing” or “flowing” and time is not a sequence of events which happen: the past and the future are simply there, laid out as part of space-time. The "twins paradox" mentioned in the previous section can be considered an example of this: whereas the stay-at-home twin’s progress through space-time was wholly through time, the traveling twin’s progress was partly through space, so that his progress through time was less than that of the stay-at-home twin (so that he aged less). Therefore, as Einstein remarked, “For us physicists, the distinction between past, present and future is only an illusion, however persistent”, and these concepts really do not figure at all in special relativity. Similarly, our whole conception of space becomes unreliable as the relativistic effects of length contraction become apparent at high relative speeds. But the malleability and blurring of space and time also has implications for other aspects of physics. Just as Maxwell had shown that the electric and magnetic fields, once considered completely separate entities, were both just part of a single seamless entity known as the electromagnetic field, likewise (although perhaps more difficult to grasp and perhaps more unexpected) energy and mass turn out to be just different faces of the same coin, a connection encapsulated in Einstein’s justifiably famous formula, E = mc2, which we will look at in the next section.
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Post by intelchips on Sept 28, 2023 13:26:39 GMT -5
Well, you invited non-professing in and this is the result: when my turn came around, I would ask about the following. Why does Jesus, an Aramaic-speaking lower-class individual, quote the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible? This raises a curious anomaly where Jesus seems to employ the words of the Septuagint (LXX) rather than the Hebrew text. This deviation from what one might expect challenges the assumption that Jesus had a rabbinical background and primarily spoke in Aramaic, a view held by most contemporary scholars. Additionally, it has been widely accepted that Jesus did not speak Greek, further deepening the mystery surrounding the absence of Aramaic or Aramaic-influenced teachings attributed to him. (It's worth noting that the idea that some Gospels were originally composed in Aramaic is no longer considered tenable.) I once asked Eldon pretty much this same question and he said he was too busy to waste time answering that type of question. He said, "to many souls need saving." Souls that may or may not exist if Jesus never existed and therefore Christianity is just another manmade religion like all the rest. Don't look into what you believe, just believe it the way it's been taught to you. Islam is not different. Snow how can one study without also looking into context and factual historical surroundings? Also, Dan made me think of why someone would risk life for a false belief. Is it wise to study the Gospels without considering the historical context and the influences on the writers, as well as the perspectives of those who came after? Irenaeus, a prominent Church Father, asserted that the four Gospels were authored by disciples or followers of Jesus. However, contemporary scholarship provides compelling reasons to question these claims, opening the door to the possibility of Gnostic Gospels holding significance in certain contexts. Irenaeus, hailing from the Church in Lyons, France, was troubled by the diversity of Gospel readings among Christians in his community. Some exclusively adhered to Luke, while others favored Matthew, John, or even the Gospel of Thomas. Moreover, heretical groups claimed to possess additional Gospels beyond those recognized by mainstream Christianity, which Irenaeus vehemently denounced as blasphemous. Irenaeus keenly observed the significant variations in theological perspectives among Christian groups, stemming from their reliance on various sources. To address this diversity, he advocated for the consolidation of the four Gospels, which he believed were authored by Jesus' disciples. It's worth noting that Irenaeus likely inherited this belief from his mentor, Bishop Polycarp, in the second century. Polycarp, who served as Irenaeus's spiritual guide, had connections to Syria and dispatched Irenaeus as a missionary to the barbarian populations in what is now France. Irenaeus's insistence on the four Gospels was also influenced by Greek cosmology, associating the number four with the four corners of the universe and the four principal winds. Irenaeus regarded the presence of only four Gospels as a natural and divinely ordained arrangement, which he referred to as the "four-form Gospel." According to his perspective, these four Gospels laid the foundation for the preached message of Christianity, akin to four pillars, each offering distinct perspectives on Jesus: Matthew: Focused on the physical genealogy of Jesus, portraying Him as the Messiah in the Davidic lineage and presenting Him as the King of Israel. Mark: Presented Jesus as a prophet in his Gospel. Luke: Portrayed Jesus as a physician and priest, emphasizing His role as a healer of souls. John: Elevated Jesus to the highest status, depicting Him as God in human form. Irenaeus ardently argued that all four Gospels were necessary because they complemented one another, providing a comprehensive understanding of Jesus. He vehemently rejected claims of secret Gospels. However, it's crucial to note that Irenaeus's preference for the four canonical Gospels and his rejection of alternative teachings, such as secret or additional Gospels, weren't solely based on cosmological symbolism. They were deeply rooted in his desire to establish a unified and orthodox Christian doctrine. This quest for unity gained momentum during the era of Emperor Constantine when Christianity garnered favor and political power within the Roman Empire. With the backing of the political and military establishment, bishops like Athanasius in Egypt could enforce the recognition of the four Gospels, codify the Nicene Creed, and establish a definitive canon of scripture. This organized structure aimed to maintain doctrinal consistency within the burgeoning Christian community while distinguishing orthodox beliefs from heterodox ones. Regarding the Diatessaron, while it may appear as an attempt to harmonize the Gospels, it didn't achieve universal acceptance primarily because each of the four canonical Gospels possessed unique qualities and narratives that different Christian communities valued. The vivid and distinct aspects of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John contributed to their continued use and acceptance within the church. Irenaeus's role in shaping early Christianity was profoundly influenced by the challenging historical context in which he lived. His efforts were part of a broader movement to establish a standardized and organized form of Christianity, which played a pivotal role in defining the beliefs and practices of the early church. Irenaeus also underscored the significance of a catechetical process for newcomers to the faith, culminating in baptism and the recitation of the creed as a declaration of belief. He cautioned against delving into advanced teachings after joining the church, viewing such pursuits as potentially divisive. In the perilous environment of his time, characterized by persecution, torture, and executions of Christians for their faith, Irenaeus's actions were not driven solely by a thirst for power. Instead, he aimed to secure the survival and unity of the Christian community. His efforts proved instrumental in navigating the complex transition from a persecuted minority to a favored and influential religious group within the Roman Empire. In essence, Irenaeus's endeavors were part of a broader movement to establish a standardized and organized form of Christianity that significantly shaped the early church's beliefs and practices. It's essential to acknowledge that the rejection of secret teachings attributed to Jesus, championed by figures like Irenaeus, represents a matter of theological interpretation and religious doctrine within early Christianity. The concept of secret teachings or hidden knowledge (often referred to as "gnosis") sparked debates and controversies within early Christian communities. Irenaeus and others who shared his perspective vehemently opposed these ideas, asserting that there were no valid secret teachings from Jesus or Paul. This stance was underpinned by several key points: Scriptural Emphasis: Irenaeus and many early Christians placed immense importance on the authority of specific writings that eventually became the canonical Gospels, such as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They believed these texts contained the genuine teachings of Jesus. Oral Tradition: Early Christian communities heavily relied on oral tradition to pass down the teachings of Jesus and early Christian beliefs from one generation to another. Irenaeus and like-minded individuals were confident that these oral traditions faithfully conveyed the teachings of Jesus and that any teachings deviating from them should be treated with suspicion. Orthodoxy and Heresy: In the formative years of Christianity, numerous sects and groups with varying beliefs emerged. Some of these groups claimed to possess secret knowledge or alternative interpretations of Christian teachings. Leaders like Irenaeus viewed these teachings as divisive and heretical, striving to establish a unified and orthodox Christian doctrine. Theological Arguments: Irenaeus and other early Christian theologians employed theological reasoning to support their positions. They argued that the teachings of Jesus, as recorded in the canonical Gospels, were sufficient for salvation, while secret teachings were deemed unnecessary and potentially misleading. It's crucial to recognize that the rejection of secret teachings was a subject of theological debate within early Christianity. Different Christian groups held varying perspectives on this issue. The viewpoint of Irenaeus and the subsequent development of orthodox Christian tradition were just one facet of early Christianity, which encompassed a spectrum of interpretations and beliefs. In summary, Irenaeus's assertion that there were no valid secret teachings from Jesus or Paul stemmed from his theological interpretation of the canonical Gospels and his aim to establish a unified and orthodox Christian doctrine. While his stance significantly contributed to the shaping of early Christian tradition, it doesn't inherently provide historical evidence regarding whether Jesus actually imparted secret teachings. The question of what teachings Jesus may or may not have conveyed beyond what is recorded in the canonical Gospels remains a subject of historical and theological inquiry. Moreover, understanding the historical context of persecution in which Irenaeus operated is essential. Persecution wasn't a constant and widespread phenomenon but occurred sporadically in different regions of the Roman Empire. It aimed to intimidate and coerce Christians into renouncing their faith, and it had a chilling effect on Christian communities across the vast territory encompassed by the Roman Empire. Prominent Christian leaders like Peter, Paul, and James faced execution, sending a powerful message to Christians everywhere. This context of persecution shaped the actions and motivations of figures like Irenaeus as they sought to ensure the survival and unity of the Christian community. It's a captivating chapter of history, one rarely discussed in the confines of a 2x2 meeting. When delving into the early Christian movement, it's crucial to grasp that persecution wasn't a constant, widespread phenomenon. The Christian world spanned from Iran to Egypt, Africa, Spain, France, Belgium, and even what is now Britain. This vast expanse was often referred to as the 'whole world,' as Rome understood it, and governing such a diverse territory presented significant challenges. Persecution against Christians would flare up when a determined governor sought to eliminate them or when another governor aimed to display their authority. Sometimes, the pronouncements of emperors triggered actions against Christians. Persecution was sporadic, and while some scholars argue that its severity may have been somewhat exaggerated, it's essential to acknowledge that persecution didn't need to target every Christian. Striking fear into a few individuals could effectively convey a message to the entire Christian community. The primary objective of persecution was to intimidate and compel Christians to renounce their faith, as they were often perceived as potential traitors and threats to the Roman order. Historical records suggest that figures like Peter, Paul, and James met their demise in brutal ways. Peter was beheaded, Paul was subjected to floggings and eventually beheaded by Roman orders, and James met a grisly end through lynching in Jerusalem. These were prominent leaders of Christian communities spread across Rome and beyond. The news of their executions cast a chilling shadow over Christians everywhere, sending an unequivocal message. I apologize for the extended narrative, but it flowed naturally as I shared these historical insights. Foot note: The historical accounts of the executions of figures like Peter, Paul, and James are found in various early Christian texts and writings, as well as some references in works by ancient historians. Here is some support for the descriptions mentioned: Peter's Execution: The account of Peter's execution by beheading is widely associated with early Christian tradition. The most well-known source for this information is the apocryphal "Acts of Peter," which describes Peter's crucifixion. According to tradition, Peter requested to be crucified upside down because he considered himself unworthy to die in the same manner as Jesus. While the "Acts of Peter" is not considered a canonical text, it reflects the traditions and beliefs of early Christians. Paul's Execution: The execution of Paul is not described in detail in the New Testament, but there are references that suggest his impending death. In 2 Timothy 4:6-8, the apostle Paul writes, "For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near." Early Christian tradition, as reflected in writings by church fathers like Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch, supports the idea that Paul was executed, likely by beheading. James' Execution: The execution of James, the brother of Jesus and leader of the Jerusalem church, is mentioned by the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus in his work "Antiquities of the Jews" (Book 20, Chapter 9). Josephus writes that James was stoned to death in Jerusalem. This account provides an external historical reference to the execution of a prominent early Christian leader. While these accounts are not exhaustive and may not provide extensive details, they are significant within early Christian tradition and are supported by some external historical sources. The early Christian community preserved these narratives, and they have become integral to the understanding of the lives and fates of these key figures in Christianity.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 29, 2023 3:26:32 GMT -5
It was never a bible study at a Wednesday night 2x2 meeting. Just another meeting with each person putting in their pennyworth, in turn, in the normal meeting formal way. Never any discussion, or in depth examination. No clear interpretation of scripture ever reached. We were fortunate enough to attend a proper bible study after leaving the 2x2's. Took the form of an informal debate, where the actual meaning of that portion of scripture was teased out due to a spontaneous group effort. We learnt more about scripture at those bible studies than we ever did at 2x2 meetings. Gosh where do you live? I'd love you to come to our meetings, they aren't formal or anything like that, we read the Bible and we fully discuss scripture in all depths. Everyone and anyone is welcome.
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