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Post by SharonArnold on Jun 19, 2023 15:28:11 GMT -5
Even when I was a painfully earnest 2X2 (oh, yes, I was), I was very aware of the divide between Jesus and Paul. I never liked Paul very much and, in my mind, I probably conflated him with the workers who were saying "Don't do this, or this, or that". I was probably mostly right in that assessment. How old were you when you left? I never saw that before I left. Over the years I've read a lot of the beginnings of Christianity and it became clear to me then. I chuckled at your comment that the don't do this and that were more 'Paul'. I agree. I was 36, so, yep, I have lived on both sides of the fence. It took me 7 years from the first moment that the thought of leaving ever entered my mind, until I left. Up until that point, it was absolutely unthinkable for me. I think there is something powerful in the 7 year time frame, and I do believe there is Biblical support for this. I have also had a couple forgiveness processes that also took approximately that long for me.
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Post by Dan on Jun 19, 2023 15:42:14 GMT -5
I don't see the contradictions that you do. “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6). The law aside, without the redemptive power of Christ, we're all dead meat. That was also Paul's overriding message. "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31 ESV). We were inspired to keep the commandments by Christ and Paul, but salvation is not dependent on that alone, because the Cross defeated the curse of the law.
Why do you call the law a 'curse'. I find that interesting. Some of the commandments are good ideas for a cohesive society. The 1st and 2nd commandments are just god related, but do not kill, do not commit adultery etc. are all good ideas if we want a more peaceful society to live in.
Your correct, the law is good, its not a curse but for our benefit. The punishment for breaking the law is the curse of the law, "For the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). That's what Christ answered for at Calvary, our sins can be washed in the blood of the lamb, so come judgement day, sin = death does not apply because our sins were atoned for and blotted out, whereby we are guilty of nothing. Jesus removed the curse of the law.
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Post by intelchips on Jun 19, 2023 15:53:11 GMT -5
How many 2x2 recognize the divide between Jesus and Paul? From the very little secondhand and thirdhand information available we have the historical Jesus who is preaching his message of the coming kingdom of God and the need to repent because the kingdom is coming near and if you want to enter into the kingdom you need to turn back to God in order to enter into this Kingdom. And also you need to start keeping his law the way God wants you to and this is the preaching of Jesus you get throughout the gospels of the New Testament. And along comes Paul who's preaching that the way to have salvation is through the death and resurrection of Jesus and he hardly ever mentions Jesus teachings and when he does mention his teachings he does not do so from the Central teachings to what Jesus appears to have taught. So my question is who are you following Jesus or Paul?
I don't see the contradictions that you do. “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6). The law aside, without the redemptive power of Christ, we're all dead meat. That was also Paul's overriding message. "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31 ESV). We were inspired to keep the commandments by Christ and Paul, but salvation is not dependent on that alone, because the Cross defeated the curse of the law.
Dan, if Jesus really was the messianic figure that all of Jewdom was waiting for (and I’m not saying he was) then how can you not see the great difference between jews following Jesus and later his brother James as not being very different from Paul. The word Christ or Christians can refer to the Palestine messianic movement but it's a later term that has been used overseas in northern Syria and the book of Acts. When the book records it's version of the growth of the what it calls the church it says Christians were first called Christians in Antioch in Syria now that is not a revolutionary movement in Antioch in Syria, that's a Pauline Church they would be opposed basically to the Messianic movement in Palestine. Paul was transforming it into something quite different, It became a pacifist pro-roman sort of a messianic movement that we're now all familiar with so it isn't the same as the Messianic movement in Palestine, it's a later reformulation of the messianic movement in Palestine.
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2023 15:54:42 GMT -5
How old were you when you left? I never saw that before I left. Over the years I've read a lot of the beginnings of Christianity and it became clear to me then. I chuckled at your comment that the don't do this and that were more 'Paul'. I agree. I was 36, so, yep, I have lived on both sides of the fence. It took me 7 years from the first moment that the thought of leaving ever entered my mind, until I left. Up until that point, it was absolutely unthinkable for me. I think there is something powerful in the 7 year time frame, and I do believe there is Biblical support for this. I have also had a couple forgiveness processes that also took approximately that long for me. That's interesting. Maybe it's just the fact that the more we mature the more able we are to change our views? 36, so yes you definitely got to see both sides. I never lived it as an adult.
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2023 15:56:22 GMT -5
Why do you call the law a 'curse'. I find that interesting. Some of the commandments are good ideas for a cohesive society. The 1st and 2nd commandments are just god related, but do not kill, do not commit adultery etc. are all good ideas if we want a more peaceful society to live in. Your correct, the law is good, its not a curse but for our benefit. The punishment for breaking the law is the curse of the law, "For the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). That's what Christ answered for at Calvary, our sins can be washed in the blood of the lamb, so come judgement day, sin = death does not apply because our sins were atoned for and blotted out, whereby we are guilty of nothing. Jesus removed the curse of the law.
Ah okay, now I understand what you were saying.
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Post by deepdeep on Jun 19, 2023 16:44:19 GMT -5
If it is the Truth established by Christ, then it isn't going anywhere. It may be diminished, but there will always be a remnant. Judas betrayed Christ, Peter denied him, they all ran away and hid themselves, but the Truth prevailed.
While its true that no church is perfect, its also true that the Friends don't put their faith in people, but in the Way they are convinced was established by Christ.
I agree with your entire post, except that most of the Workers aren't going anywhere. After the smoke clears from the ongoing house cleaning, I believe the ministry will continue in its same basic format.
A few changes and precautions will be injected and many infuriated and disgruntled Friends may split, but the "None But Christ Can Satisfy" crowd will remain faithful.. jmo
How many 2x2 recognize the divide between Jesus and Paul? From the very little secondhand and thirdhand information available we have the historical Jesus who is preaching his message of the coming kingdom of God and the need to repent because the kingdom is coming near and if you want to enter into the kingdom you need to turn back to God in order to enter into this Kingdom. And also you need to start keeping his law the way God wants you to and this is the preaching of Jesus you get throughout the gospels of the New Testament. And along comes Paul who's preaching that the way to have salvation is through the death and resurrection of Jesus and he hardly ever mentions Jesus teachings and when he does mention his teachings he does not do so from the Central teachings to what Jesus appears to have taught. So my question is who are you following Jesus or Paul? If you are referring to the rhetorical and literary differences in Jesus preachings and Paul's preaching...very few people, 2x2 or otherwise, will be able to say much about the "divide" as you call it. The fact that the historical information on both men is ancient, incomplete, often conflicting and subject to broad interpretation means that the message can really be bent to whatever the receiver wants it to be. Ironically, fundamentalists and hardcore anti-fundamentalists tend to make the same errors by strictly interpreting ancient texts. The best you can hope for is that people take seriously the messages about caring for the widows and children and how to orient oneself towards a neighbor. If that is the case, then whatever "mis-interpretation" is at least pro-social and societally functional. The messages dealing directly with the metaphysics of resurrection get a lot of emphasis....maybe that should change.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 19, 2023 18:55:50 GMT -5
Everything within the organization of this church is based on a lie. Everything is a coverup from the founding to the abuse. The workers have lied and lied and lied. Now it's all coming back to them, and it ain't pretty! Reminds me of what we grew up with that it's OK to lie for the sake of the kingdom. They've lied and spread lies around about people who have spoken the truth. The workers have lied and hidden the truth of their beginnings leading people to believe a lie since the beginning. Would many of our ancestors have joined if they'd known it was started by a man. I'd guess not. People were led into a trap by being told this was started by Jesus. This generation is left with trying to clean up the mess. This 'church' was built on a lie. How often were incidents misrepresented (a) to protect the offenders identity, or (b) to "prevent the weak friends from strong meat"?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 19, 2023 19:00:33 GMT -5
Reminds me of what we grew up with that it's OK to lie for the sake of the kingdom. They've lied and spread lies around about people who have spoken the truth. The workers have lied and hidden the truth of their beginnings leading people to believe a lie since the beginning. Would many of our ancestors have joined if they'd known it was started by a man. I'd guess not. People were led into a trap by being told this was started by Jesus. This generation is left with trying to clean up the mess. This 'church' was built on a lie. Imagine my surprise when last weekend at convention Ray Hoffman spoke about "120 years ago when the first workers went out with the gospel" and "It's fruitless to try to find a connection all the way back to Jesus, it doesn't exist." (paraphrased). Others listening in the same meeting didn't even pick up on it. What convention was that, may I ask?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 19, 2023 19:01:53 GMT -5
Like a building built on the sand. The tide is coming in fast. Climate change.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2023 22:33:32 GMT -5
Reminds me of what we grew up with that it's OK to lie for the sake of the kingdom. They've lied and spread lies around about people who have spoken the truth. The workers have lied and hidden the truth of their beginnings leading people to believe a lie since the beginning. Would many of our ancestors have joined if they'd known it was started by a man. I'd guess not. People were led into a trap by being told this was started by Jesus. This generation is left with trying to clean up the mess. This 'church' was built on a lie. Imagine my surprise when last weekend at convention Ray Hoffman spoke about "120 years ago when the first workers went out with the gospel" and "It's fruitless to try to find a connection all the way back to Jesus, it doesn't exist." (paraphrased). Others listening in the same meeting didn't even pick up on it. TL said the same thing a few years ago during a dinner. No one got it. It was like an Air raid siren in my ears.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 19, 2023 22:37:29 GMT -5
Imagine my surprise when last weekend at convention Ray Hoffman spoke about "120 years ago when the first workers went out with the gospel" and "It's fruitless to try to find a connection all the way back to Jesus, it doesn't exist." (paraphrased). Others listening in the same meeting didn't even pick up on it. TL said the same thing a few years ago during a dinner. No one got it. It was like an Air raid siren in my ears. I've long thought too many people listen more to the "sound of the gospel" than to the truth of what's really being said.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 20, 2023 1:35:49 GMT -5
TL said the same thing a few years ago during a dinner. No one got it. It was like an Air raid siren in my ears. I've long thought too many people listen more to the "sound of the gospel" than to the truth of what's really being said. I like that Bob, and that puts it very succinctly for many folk.
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Post by internationalstudies on Jun 20, 2023 13:22:09 GMT -5
One can only wonder in amazement while reading the flood of posts concerning CSA and other problems with the 2x2 church. And what I have today here is not just limited to the 2x2 church but Christianity as a whole. The reason I throw my pearls before you are because my family had a long tradition of being a part of the 2x2 church. If one didn’t allow their belief system to accept the various Christian teachings, they would be free to join realistically functioning humans and be received into a much larger support system to deal with CSA and other problems. Humanity is a class of beings that continues to update their understanding of reality and how they deal with problems. We no longer burn witches, nor blame women for being assaulted because of how they dress. We no longer practice bloodletting nor using all the barbaric treatments of the past to cure schizophrenia. If one is willing to open their mind to the possibility, they may be wrong and spend time digging deep into research they will find that most everything in the Christian Bible is plagiarized from elsewhere and the New Testament even plagiarized from the Old Testament. We all owe a death, what's waits beyond if anything no one knows. If you can accept this then get on with enjoying your life. I’m no angel but I spend all my spare time coaching youth soccer because I see that is the place I can have the most influence in teaching youth to be a team player, to look out after each other both on and off the pitch and that they also make friends for life playing the beautiful game. I have remained quite so far on this CSA thing. However, over the years I had become aware of many problems within the church, but I was more focused on the big lie rather than the problems contained inside the big lie. So, I see from the forum so many hurting, disappointed, lost, I suggest you come to a youth soccer game at RRSA and watch our youth pursue the beautiful game and for a few hours all your troubles will vanish. Be of good cheer I record this for posterity: There have been sad things happen, cleansing and change is happening. A spring can get polluted but it cleanses itself and continues to spring up from its pure source. Doomsayers and your predictions...... I state a reality that is an uncomfortable truth for you. -People are finding Christ and becoming part of our church these very days. -There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also. Keep this if you wish, refer if you wish again after 10 years and see how fulfilled the doomsayers (and their cheerleaders hurrahs and 'likes') and predictions are. I will get mocked, scorned, derided and dismissed for this reality and truth that I have posted..... and I don't give a hoot about that! 😜 I record this for posterity: There have been sad things happen, cleansing and change is happening. A spring can get polluted but it cleanses itself and continues to spring up from its pure source. Doomsayers and your predictions...... I state a reality that is an uncomfortable truth for you. -People are finding Christ and becoming part of our church these very days. -There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also. Keep this if you wish, refer if you wish again after 10 years and see how fulfilled the doomsayers (and their cheerleaders hurrahs and 'likes') and predictions are. I will get mocked, scorned, derided and dismissed for this reality and truth that I have posted..... and I don't give a hoot about that! 😜 I record this for posterity: There have been sad things happen, cleansing and change is happening. A spring can get polluted but it cleanses itself and continues to spring up from its pure source. Doomsayers and your predictions...... I state a reality that is an uncomfortable truth for you. -People are finding Christ and becoming part of our church these very days. -There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also. Keep this if you wish, refer if you wish again after 10 years and see how fulfilled the doomsayers (and their cheerleaders hurrahs and 'likes') and predictions are. I will get mocked, scorned, derided and dismissed for this reality and truth that I have posted..... and I don't give a hoot about that! 😜 intelchips goes off on some atheistic tangent of his. "Jesus spoke of Noah and the flood as a historically factual occurrence. End of debate for the believer in Christ."
Good on you mountain! 👍 intel, you'll get more traction on some atheists forum. curlywurly posts more his childish nonsense. At least he's not crude and vulgar recently! 👍 foreverfree 'prophesies' "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” The storm is coming, folks!We'll see! 😉 pragmatic: Chokes on "There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also." He speaks for himself.... "large numbers of families kids not professed." Is it any wonder this is true for him? As he reveals himself in his factually incorrect posts, circular arguments and personal opinion? other 'perennials' chime in, prophets and doomsayers getting their cathartic release with giving the church/friends and workers another crack! 🤷♂️ 🤣 BUT, here is more evidence of the truth of what I posted: wingsfortruth.info/2023/06/20/to-the-workers-advocating-for-change
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Post by intelchips on Jun 20, 2023 13:50:44 GMT -5
"intelchips goes off on some atheistic tangent. (mountain correctly stated "Jesus spoke of Noah and the flood as a historically factual occurrence. End of debate for the believer in Christ.") Good on you mountain! 👍"
Why would one put faith in some Jew living in the junction of BC/AD knowing more about the truth of man and god than anyone else? Religion is not a truth, it is argument! And if the points made by IntelChips are uncomfortable to be answered does that make them less relative?
The question is, are Paul and Jesus preaching the same religion when you think of Christianity.
Christianity is usually thought of as a religion based on the death and resurrection of Jesus. Is that what Jesus thought religion was about, was that what Jesus was preaching and if not then isn't Christianity the religion about Jesus rather than the religion of Jesus and if so isn't Paul the one who creates this thing we call Christianity. That's the kind of issue that seems so hard for many here today to recognize.
It's up to the individual in the court of public opinion to decide the relationship apology of Jesus and Paul, where they're similar but also where they're very very different.
Among academics that have taken a deep dive into this question there have been more than a few who kind of coined the phrase that Paul's kind of the Creator, or maybe they won't use the word Creator but they'll say he is the originator of what we call christianity. however, he has this weird list in First Corinthians 15 where he claims people before him supposedly were eyewitnesses, probably Visionary States or something. It depends on who you're reading of Jesus’ resurrection, a resurrected Jesus. Paul also persecuted Christians elsewhere, so what is he persecuting them for, what is their message are they already preaching a death burial resurrection idea about Jesus or could this be something different and that Paul as he says in Galatians 1 he receives this gospel through Revelation not of man but directly from Christ.
I don't know the answer but that's why I'm saying there is a difference between Paul and Jesus
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Post by Mary on Jun 30, 2023 19:47:38 GMT -5
I record this for posterity: There have been sad things happen, cleansing and change is happening. A spring can get polluted but it cleanses itself and continues to spring up from its pure source. Doomsayers and your predictions...... I state a reality that is an uncomfortable truth for you. -People are finding Christ and becoming part of our church these very days. -There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also. Keep this if you wish, refer if you wish again after 10 years and see how fulfilled the doomsayers (and their cheerleaders hurrahs and 'likes') and predictions are. I will get mocked, scorned, derided and dismissed for this reality and truth that I have posted..... and I don't give a hoot about that! 😜 I record this for posterity: There have been sad things happen, cleansing and change is happening. A spring can get polluted but it cleanses itself and continues to spring up from its pure source. Doomsayers and your predictions...... I state a reality that is an uncomfortable truth for you. -People are finding Christ and becoming part of our church these very days. -There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also. Keep this if you wish, refer if you wish again after 10 years and see how fulfilled the doomsayers (and their cheerleaders hurrahs and 'likes') and predictions are. I will get mocked, scorned, derided and dismissed for this reality and truth that I have posted..... and I don't give a hoot about that! 😜 I record this for posterity: There have been sad things happen, cleansing and change is happening. A spring can get polluted but it cleanses itself and continues to spring up from its pure source. Doomsayers and your predictions...... I state a reality that is an uncomfortable truth for you. -People are finding Christ and becoming part of our church these very days. -There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also. Keep this if you wish, refer if you wish again after 10 years and see how fulfilled the doomsayers (and their cheerleaders hurrahs and 'likes') and predictions are. I will get mocked, scorned, derided and dismissed for this reality and truth that I have posted..... and I don't give a hoot about that! 😜 intelchips goes off on some atheistic tangent of his. "Jesus spoke of Noah and the flood as a historically factual occurrence. End of debate for the believer in Christ."
Good on you mountain! 👍 intel, you'll get more traction on some atheists forum. curlywurly posts more his childish nonsense. At least he's not crude and vulgar recently! 👍 foreverfree 'prophesies' "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” The storm is coming, folks!We'll see! 😉 pragmatic: Chokes on "There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also." He speaks for himself.... "large numbers of families kids not professed." Is it any wonder this is true for him? As he reveals himself in his factually incorrect posts, circular arguments and personal opinion? other 'perennials' chime in, prophets and doomsayers getting their cathartic release with giving the church/friends and workers another crack! 🤷♂️ 🤣 BUT, here is more evidence of the truth of what I posted: wingsfortruth.info/2023/06/20/to-the-workers-advocating-for-changeEvidence of what JWNZ posted. WINGS for Truth, JWNZ / May 14, 2023 at 3.12 pm. "There is absolutely nothing edifying about this wicked website (WINGS)......I pray that you can learn to look away from the sins and shortcomings of others and stop turning so many hearts against the Truth and sending them the to hell". 2 posts later JWNZ continued: Calling it a gossip and slander channel. "Denying those who have spiritual authority over you". Responses to the posts were of disgust.
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Post by Dan on Jul 1, 2023 1:31:34 GMT -5
Evidence of what you posted. WINGS for Truth, JWNZ / May 14, 2023 at 3.12 pm. "There is absolutely nothing edifying about this wicked website (WINGS)......I pray that you can learn to look away from the sins and shortcomings of others and stop turning so many hearts against the Truth and sending them the to hell". 2 posts later you continued: Calling it a gossip and slander channel. "Denying those who have spiritual authority over you". Responses to your posts were of disgust.
I use to think the Truth was hard to handle, but it turned out that it was never Jesus who was cumbersome.
Boil it all down to the basics and a child can understand the simplicity of Christ
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 1:54:14 GMT -5
Evidence of what you posted. WINGS for Truth, JWNZ / May 14, 2023 at 3.12 pm. "There is absolutely nothing edifying about this wicked website (WINGS)......I pray that you can learn to look away from the sins and shortcomings of others and stop turning so many hearts against the Truth and sending them the to hell". 2 posts later you continued: Calling it a gossip and slander channel. "Denying those who have spiritual authority over you". Responses to your posts were of disgust.
I use to think the Truth was hard to handle, but it turned out that it was never Jesus who was cumbersome.
Boil it all down to the basics and a child can understand the simplicity of Christ
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Post by mountain on Jul 1, 2023 3:04:37 GMT -5
"intelchips goes off on some atheistic tangent. (mountain correctly stated "Jesus spoke of Noah and the flood as a historically factual occurrence. End of debate for the believer in Christ.") Good on you mountain! 👍" Why would one put faith in some Jew living in the junction of BC/AD knowing more about the truth of man and god than anyone else? Religion is not a truth, it is argument! And if the points made by IntelChips are uncomfortable to be answered does that make them less relative? The question is, are Paul and Jesus preaching the same religion when you think of Christianity. Christianity is usually thought of as a religion based on the death and resurrection of Jesus. Is that what Jesus thought religion was about, was that what Jesus was preaching and if not then isn't Christianity the religion about Jesus rather than the religion of Jesus and if so isn't Paul the one who creates this thing we call Christianity. That's the kind of issue that seems so hard for many here today to recognize. It's up to the individual in the court of public opinion to decide the relationship apology of Jesus and Paul, where they're similar but also where they're very very different. Among academics that have taken a deep dive into this question there have been more than a few who kind of coined the phrase that Paul's kind of the Creator, or maybe they won't use the word Creator but they'll say he is the originator of what we call christianity. however, he has this weird list in First Corinthians 15 where he claims people before him supposedly were eyewitnesses, probably Visionary States or something. It depends on who you're reading of Jesus’ resurrection, a resurrected Jesus. Paul also persecuted Christians elsewhere, so what is he persecuting them for, what is their message are they already preaching a death burial resurrection idea about Jesus or could this be something different and that Paul as he says in Galatians 1 he receives this gospel through Revelation not of man but directly from Christ. I don't know the answer but that's why I'm saying there is a difference between Paul and Jesus There is no real difference between Jesus and Paul Ints. None at all. That's why you don't have the answer. Paul's apparent or perceived differences to Jesus are simply down to lack of contextual understanding. If you study Acts 9 you will see that Paul/Saul did a complete U-turn on his former beliefs and submitted himself wholly and completely to his Lord and Master, Jesus Christ. Can a man who made such sincere statements as below, have any real variances with the one he has subjected himself to? 'But what things I counted gain to self, I counted loss for Christ. (paraphrased)' 'I die daily to let Christ control.' Understanding these things shows that Paul had reconciled himself to Christ....fully! If there are apparent differences between what Paul preached and taught and what Jesus preached and taught, then there is a duty on us to reconcile the two, rather than exploit an imaginary gulf. Has Wally not tried to open our eyes to such things, yet we fail to observe reality? (Wally)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 4:20:21 GMT -5
"intelchips goes off on some atheistic tangent. (mountain correctly stated "Jesus spoke of Noah and the flood as a historically factual occurrence. End of debate for the believer in Christ.") Good on you mountain! 👍" Why would one put faith in some Jew living in the junction of BC/AD knowing more about the truth of man and god than anyone else? Religion is not a truth, it is argument! And if the points made by IntelChips are uncomfortable to be answered does that make them less relative? The question is, are Paul and Jesus preaching the same religion when you think of Christianity. Christianity is usually thought of as a religion based on the death and resurrection of Jesus. Is that what Jesus thought religion was about, was that what Jesus was preaching and if not then isn't Christianity the religion about Jesus rather than the religion of Jesus and if so isn't Paul the one who creates this thing we call Christianity. That's the kind of issue that seems so hard for many here today to recognize. It's up to the individual in the court of public opinion to decide the relationship apology of Jesus and Paul, where they're similar but also where they're very very different. Among academics that have taken a deep dive into this question there have been more than a few who kind of coined the phrase that Paul's kind of the Creator, or maybe they won't use the word Creator but they'll say he is the originator of what we call christianity. however, he has this weird list in First Corinthians 15 where he claims people before him supposedly were eyewitnesses, probably Visionary States or something. It depends on who you're reading of Jesus’ resurrection, a resurrected Jesus. Paul also persecuted Christians elsewhere, so what is he persecuting them for, what is their message are they already preaching a death burial resurrection idea about Jesus or could this be something different and that Paul as he says in Galatians 1 he receives this gospel through Revelation not of man but directly from Christ. I don't know the answer but that's why I'm saying there is a difference between Paul and Jesus There is no real difference between Jesus and Paul Ints. None at all. That's why you don't have the answer. Paul's apparent or perceived differences to Jesus are simply down to lack of contextual understanding. If you study Acts 9 you will see that Paul/Saul did a complete U-turn on his former beliefs and submitted himself wholly and completely to his Lord and Master, Jesus Christ. Can a man who made such sincere statements as below, have any real variances with the one he has subjected himself to? 'But what things I counted gain to self, I counted loss for Christ. (paraphrased)' 'I die daily to let Christ control.' Understanding these things shows that Paul had reconciled himself to Christ....fully! If there are apparent differences between what Paul preached and taught and what Jesus preached and taught, then there is a duty on us to reconcile the two, rather than exploit an imaginary gulf. Has Wally not tried to open our eyes to such things, yet we fail to observe reality? (Wally) Comeback (Virgs) PLEASE!!!
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Post by haggard on Jul 1, 2023 6:53:08 GMT -5
I record this for posterity: There have been sad things happen, cleansing and change is happening. A spring can get polluted but it cleanses itself and continues to spring up from its pure source. Doomsayers and your predictions...... I state a reality that is an uncomfortable truth for you. -People are finding Christ and becoming part of our church these very days. -There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also. Keep this if you wish, refer if you wish again after 10 years and see how fulfilled the doomsayers (and their cheerleaders hurrahs and 'likes') and predictions are. I will get mocked, scorned, derided and dismissed for this reality and truth that I have posted..... and I don't give a hoot about that! 😜 I record this for posterity: There have been sad things happen, cleansing and change is happening. A spring can get polluted but it cleanses itself and continues to spring up from its pure source. Doomsayers and your predictions...... I state a reality that is an uncomfortable truth for you. -People are finding Christ and becoming part of our church these very days. -There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also. Keep this if you wish, refer if you wish again after 10 years and see how fulfilled the doomsayers (and their cheerleaders hurrahs and 'likes') and predictions are. I will get mocked, scorned, derided and dismissed for this reality and truth that I have posted..... and I don't give a hoot about that! 😜 I record this for posterity: There have been sad things happen, cleansing and change is happening. A spring can get polluted but it cleanses itself and continues to spring up from its pure source. Doomsayers and your predictions...... I state a reality that is an uncomfortable truth for you. -People are finding Christ and becoming part of our church these very days. -There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also. Keep this if you wish, refer if you wish again after 10 years and see how fulfilled the doomsayers (and their cheerleaders hurrahs and 'likes') and predictions are. I will get mocked, scorned, derided and dismissed for this reality and truth that I have posted..... and I don't give a hoot about that! 😜 intelchips goes off on some atheistic tangent of his. "Jesus spoke of Noah and the flood as a historically factual occurrence. End of debate for the believer in Christ."
Good on you mountain! 👍 intel, you'll get more traction on some atheists forum. curlywurly posts more his childish nonsense. At least he's not crude and vulgar recently! 👍 foreverfree 'prophesies' "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” The storm is coming, folks!We'll see! 😉 pragmatic: Chokes on "There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also." He speaks for himself.... "large numbers of families kids not professed." Is it any wonder this is true for him? As he reveals himself in his factually incorrect posts, circular arguments and personal opinion? other 'perennials' chime in, prophets and doomsayers getting their cathartic release with giving the church/friends and workers another crack! 🤷♂️ 🤣 BUT, here is more evidence of the truth of what I posted: wingsfortruth.info/2023/06/20/to-the-workers-advocating-for-change
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Post by intelchips on Jul 1, 2023 17:01:40 GMT -5
"intelchips goes off on some atheistic tangent. (mountain correctly stated "Jesus spoke of Noah and the flood as a historically factual occurrence. End of debate for the believer in Christ.") Good on you mountain! 👍" Why would one put faith in some Jew living in the junction of BC/AD knowing more about the truth of man and god than anyone else? Religion is not a truth, it is argument! And if the points made by IntelChips are uncomfortable to be answered does that make them less relative? The question is, are Paul and Jesus preaching the same religion when you think of Christianity. Christianity is usually thought of as a religion based on the death and resurrection of Jesus. Is that what Jesus thought religion was about, was that what Jesus was preaching and if not then isn't Christianity the religion about Jesus rather than the religion of Jesus and if so isn't Paul the one who creates this thing we call Christianity. That's the kind of issue that seems so hard for many here today to recognize. It's up to the individual in the court of public opinion to decide the relationship apology of Jesus and Paul, where they're similar but also where they're very very different. Among academics that have taken a deep dive into this question there have been more than a few who kind of coined the phrase that Paul's kind of the Creator, or maybe they won't use the word Creator but they'll say he is the originator of what we call christianity. however, he has this weird list in First Corinthians 15 where he claims people before him supposedly were eyewitnesses, probably Visionary States or something. It depends on who you're reading of Jesus’ resurrection, a resurrected Jesus. Paul also persecuted Christians elsewhere, so what is he persecuting them for, what is their message are they already preaching a death burial resurrection idea about Jesus or could this be something different and that Paul as he says in Galatians 1 he receives this gospel through Revelation not of man but directly from Christ. I don't know the answer but that's why I'm saying there is a difference between Paul and Jesus There is no real difference between Jesus and Paul Ints. None at all. That's why you don't have the answer. Paul's apparent or perceived differences to Jesus are simply down to lack of contextual understanding. If you study Acts 9 you will see that Paul/Saul did a complete U-turn on his former beliefs and submitted himself wholly and completely to his Lord and Master, Jesus Christ. Can a man who made such sincere statements as below, have any real variances with the one he has subjected himself to? 'But what things I counted gain to self, I counted loss for Christ. (paraphrased)' 'I die daily to let Christ control.' Understanding these things shows that Paul had reconciled himself to Christ....fully! If there are apparent differences between what Paul preached and taught and what Jesus preached and taught, then there is a duty on us to reconcile the two, rather than exploit an imaginary gulf. Has Wally not tried to open our eyes to such things, yet we fail to observe reality? (Wally) Well, Mr. Mountain so you think there is no difference. I suggest you don’t know Paul very well in that case. Paul says that he is of the tribe of Benjamin and a Hebrew of Hebrews (Phil 3:5). Paul was originally a Herodian. By “Herodian” I mean that he has connections with the family and court of the Herod's. Theologically, Paul favored the theology of the Pharisees before his conversion but his family connections relate him to the inner circle of Herod Agrippa. Paul was highly educated both in Hebrew Scripture/Tradition but also in Greek philosophy. He is familiar with Plato’s Timaeus. He is Hebrew, but he also dabbles in Gentile learning and culture. This is the Herodian style: Jewish identity, loyalty to Jerusalem, familiar with the priests, but appreciative of Gentile power and learning. Does this sound like the Paul you example your life on? Paul was a Roman citizen. Jews were not typically citizens. We learn that Paul gained his Roman citizenship by birth. This means that his parents were Hebrews with Roman privilege. In the first century, Hebrews with Roman privilege were linked to the Roman appointed rulers of Palestine – the Herod’s. Paul officially persecuted Christians on behalf of the Temple authorities. This is odd. Think about how hard it was for the Sanhedrin to kill Jesus. Back and forth between the Roman Pontius Pilate and the Roman appointed “King” Herod Antipas the Tetrarch. Killing Jesus was complicated and difficult. And yet somehow we are to believe that Paul received certificates of authority in around the year AD 36 to go about capturing and killing Christians without trial…even as far away as Damascus? Please consider, this is the Roman Empire with laws and rules. A man can’t get permission from the priests of one city and then go and capture people in another city. How did Paul get that power? The High Priest and the Jewish Sanhedrin in Jerusalem could not have authorized Paul to arrest Christians in Damascus. The High Priest and the Jewish Sanhedrin in Jerusalem had no power in Damascus, a city in the Roman Province of Syria. Jerusalem belonged to the Roman Province of Judea. Paul seems to have gained an authority entrusted to him by a civil power connected to the Temple. This means that Saul needed religious authority and he needed Roman authority in Damascus (King Aretus IV of Damascus). Which one politician of this period had deep connections with the High Priesthood at the Temple in Jerusalem and political influence in Damascus? Who was the only man on earth who could arrange for Saul to act on behalf of the High Priest in the foreign city of Damascus? In case you might struggle with this question the answer is Herod Antipas the Tetrarch! So I ask again does any of this sound like how Jesus seen the world or thought of the people he cared for?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 17:58:43 GMT -5
There is no real difference between Jesus and Paul Ints. None at all. That's why you don't have the answer. Paul's apparent or perceived differences to Jesus are simply down to lack of contextual understanding. If you study Acts 9 you will see that Paul/Saul did a complete U-turn on his former beliefs and submitted himself wholly and completely to his Lord and Master, Jesus Christ. Can a man who made such sincere statements as below, have any real variances with the one he has subjected himself to? 'But what things I counted gain to self, I counted loss for Christ. (paraphrased)' 'I die daily to let Christ control.' Understanding these things shows that Paul had reconciled himself to Christ....fully! If there are apparent differences between what Paul preached and taught and what Jesus preached and taught, then there is a duty on us to reconcile the two, rather than exploit an imaginary gulf. Has Wally not tried to open our eyes to such things, yet we fail to observe reality? (Wally) Well, Mr. Mountain so you think there is no difference. I suggest you don’t know Paul very well in that case. Paul says that he is of the tribe of Benjamin and a Hebrew of Hebrews (Phil 3:5). Paul was originally a Herodian. By “Herodian” I mean that he has connections with the family and court of the Herod's. Theologically, Paul favored the theology of the Pharisees before his conversion but his family connections relate him to the inner circle of Herod Agrippa. Paul was highly educated both in Hebrew Scripture/Tradition but also in Greek philosophy. He is familiar with Plato’s Timaeus. He is Hebrew, but he also dabbles in Gentile learning and culture. This is the Herodian style: Jewish identity, loyalty to Jerusalem, familiar with the priests, but appreciative of Gentile power and learning. Does this sound like the Paul you example your life on? Paul was a Roman citizen. Jews were not typically citizens. We learn that Paul gained his Roman citizenship by birth. This means that his parents were Hebrews with Roman privilege. In the first century, Hebrews with Roman privilege were linked to the Roman appointed rulers of Palestine – the Herod’s. Paul officially persecuted Christians on behalf of the Temple authorities. This is odd. Think about how hard it was for the Sanhedrin to kill Jesus. Back and forth between the Roman Pontius Pilate and the Roman appointed “King” Herod Antipas the Tetrarch. Killing Jesus was complicated and difficult. And yet somehow we are to believe that Paul received certificates of authority in around the year AD 36 to go about capturing and killing Christians without trial…even as far away as Damascus? Please consider, this is the Roman Empire with laws and rules. A man can’t get permission from the priests of one city and then go and capture people in another city. How did Paul get that power? The High Priest and the Jewish Sanhedrin in Jerusalem could not have authorized Paul to arrest Christians in Damascus. The High Priest and the Jewish Sanhedrin in Jerusalem had no power in Damascus, a city in the Roman Province of Syria. Jerusalem belonged to the Roman Province of Judea. Paul seems to have gained an authority entrusted to him by a civil power connected to the Temple. This means that Saul needed religious authority and he needed Roman authority in Damascus (King Aretus IV of Damascus). Which one politician of this period had deep connections with the High Priesthood at the Temple in Jerusalem and political influence in Damascus? Who was the only man on earth who could arrange for Saul to act on behalf of the High Priest in the foreign city of Damascus? In case you might struggle with this question the answer is Herod Antipas the Tetrarch! So I ask again does any of this sound like how Jesus seen the world or thought of the people he cared for? Sources? Ummm when a leader(Christ) goes down, in general the flock scatters and many pursue. It's called blood in the water by some. They of course set about to finish it all off, Saul was a tool to that end. Saul/Paul wasn't one of Christs at first that happened on the road to Damascus. You are putting the cart before the horse. That he did not have a past identical to Christ wouldn't be much of a surprise nor a requirement to join Christ. The clue was when he joined Team Jesus and stopped doing all that. Mountain said "U-turn" in regard to Saul/Paul. I think the question or whatever was were Paul and Christ different when preaching the gospel and Gods truth. That would be the comparison Mountain was addressing when he said that they are pretty much the same. Right?
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Post by mountain on Jul 2, 2023 0:22:58 GMT -5
Well, Mr. Mountain so you think there is no difference. I suggest you don’t know Paul very well in that case. Paul says that he is of the tribe of Benjamin and a Hebrew of Hebrews (Phil 3:5). Paul was originally a Herodian. By “Herodian” I mean that he has connections with the family and court of the Herod's. Theologically, Paul favored the theology of the Pharisees before his conversion but his family connections relate him to the inner circle of Herod Agrippa. Paul was highly educated both in Hebrew Scripture/Tradition but also in Greek philosophy. He is familiar with Plato’s Timaeus. He is Hebrew, but he also dabbles in Gentile learning and culture. This is the Herodian style: Jewish identity, loyalty to Jerusalem, familiar with the priests, but appreciative of Gentile power and learning. Does this sound like the Paul you example your life on? Paul was a Roman citizen. Jews were not typically citizens. We learn that Paul gained his Roman citizenship by birth. This means that his parents were Hebrews with Roman privilege. In the first century, Hebrews with Roman privilege were linked to the Roman appointed rulers of Palestine – the Herod’s. Paul officially persecuted Christians on behalf of the Temple authorities. This is odd. Think about how hard it was for the Sanhedrin to kill Jesus. Back and forth between the Roman Pontius Pilate and the Roman appointed “King” Herod Antipas the Tetrarch. Killing Jesus was complicated and difficult. And yet somehow we are to believe that Paul received certificates of authority in around the year AD 36 to go about capturing and killing Christians without trial…even as far away as Damascus? Please consider, this is the Roman Empire with laws and rules. A man can’t get permission from the priests of one city and then go and capture people in another city. How did Paul get that power? The High Priest and the Jewish Sanhedrin in Jerusalem could not have authorized Paul to arrest Christians in Damascus. The High Priest and the Jewish Sanhedrin in Jerusalem had no power in Damascus, a city in the Roman Province of Syria. Jerusalem belonged to the Roman Province of Judea. Paul seems to have gained an authority entrusted to him by a civil power connected to the Temple. This means that Saul needed religious authority and he needed Roman authority in Damascus (King Aretus IV of Damascus). Which one politician of this period had deep connections with the High Priesthood at the Temple in Jerusalem and political influence in Damascus? Who was the only man on earth who could arrange for Saul to act on behalf of the High Priest in the foreign city of Damascus? In case you might struggle with this question the answer is Herod Antipas the Tetrarch! So I ask again does any of this sound like how Jesus seen the world or thought of the people he cared for? Sources? Ummm when a leader(Christ) goes down, in general the flock scatters and many pursue. It's called blood in the water by some. They of course set about to finish it all off, Saul was a tool to that end. Saul/Paul wasn't one of Christs at first that happened on the road to Damascus. You are putting the cart before the horse. That he did not have a past identical to Christ wouldn't be much of a surprise nor a requirement to join Christ. The clue was when he joined Team Jesus and stopped doing all that. Mountain said "U-turn" in regard to Saul/Paul. I think the question or whatever was were Paul and Christ different when preaching the gospel and Gods truth. That would be the comparison Mountain was addressing when he said that they are pretty much the same.
Right? Bang on Wally, bang on me lad! Remember what I said about context? You got it right in one. However I would remove 'pretty much' from your explanation, i.e. if you wish to make it perfect?
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Post by snow on Jul 4, 2023 20:07:48 GMT -5
Evidence of what you posted. WINGS for Truth, JWNZ / May 14, 2023 at 3.12 pm. "There is absolutely nothing edifying about this wicked website (WINGS)......I pray that you can learn to look away from the sins and shortcomings of others and stop turning so many hearts against the Truth and sending them the to hell". 2 posts later you continued: Calling it a gossip and slander channel. "Denying those who have spiritual authority over you". Responses to your posts were of disgust. I think people have missed the implications of Mary's post. jwnz | May 14, 2023 at 3:12 pm
There is absolutely nothing edifying about this wicked website. I’m reminded of Hymn 278. A wise worker wrote that, and one verse speaks about how he had to deal with many similar situations. “Oh for the peace of a perfect trust, that looks away from all.” I pray you can learn to look away from the sins and shortcomings of others and stop turning so many hearts against the Truth and sending them to hell.
answer I suspect this is a parody post.
If not, please be advised that in most jurisdictions, covering up crimes is considered a criminal act.
Also note. To edify is “instruct or improve (someone) morally or intellectually.” At its core, that is what this “wicked” site exercises.jwnz | May 14, 2023 at 7:17 pm I most certainly did not advocate for anyone to cover up crimes and you know it. You are the one running the extrajudicial gossip and slander channel. Making and allowing unproven and inaccurate accusations that are ruining people’s lives. Posting emails that are clearly marked private. Stirring up new outrage about cases that were decided in court years and decades ago. And worst of all, defying those who have spiritual authority over you.answer to jwnz Not okay to let this continue. This is horrifying. By attitudes like yours, the entire situation has been allowed to grow to enormous crimes. This is not what real truth is about.answer to jwnz I have worked out who you are. I am horrified by your comments. I am a professing friend and this website is doing far more to help victims than wrong. So much evil behavior by Workers, this deplorable behavior has been going well documented for over 20 years. Evil prospers when good men do nothing. You as a worker need to read and think about what I have written below. Enough is enough. We are disgusted when we see men who are not Christian’s sexually abusing. These are supposed to be our spiritual shepherds. Pure evil hypocrisy. NZ has one ex worker that has multiple victims all over the country and has never faced prison as he should. Ruined young lives.
Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.”
To those who abuse: the sin is yours, the crime is yours, and the shame is yours. To those who protect the perpetrators: blaming the victims only masks the evil within, making you as guilty as those who abuse. Stand up for the innocent or go down with the rest.
In order to escape accountability for his crimes, the perpetrator does everything in his power to promote forgetting. If secrecy fails, the perpetrator attacks the credibility of his victim. If he cannot silence her absolutely, he tries to make sure no one listens.answer to jwnz Turn away? Friends have trusted the workers to deal with things for over 40 years that I’m aware. The period of grace has gone. I notice you have little to say about the fact that each perpetrator has usually multiple victims. Each one of those children will have as a teenager and adult a life time of physiological trauma to battle with. Forgiveness and restoration comes after honesty, remorse, repentance and a consequence paid for there action. THEN and only then can restoration happen. Workers do not have spiritual authority over us – God has, with the guiding power of the Holy Spirit. Workers are Shepherds of the sheep and preachers of the message of Christ to bring salvation to the broken hearted. The lowliest of men, who are filled with humility and grateful for open homes and the care that is offered. Tending to the flock but caring for the wounded individual. Care – the provision of what is necessary for the health, welfare, maintenance and protection of someone. I suspect your a worker, concerned about your spiritual authority being challenged and power over others. Very sad shameful post.answer to jwnz I am not accusing you of being mentally unstable, but you are speaking as though you are answer to jwnz jwnz has suggested that, quote” Oh for the peace of a perfect trust, that looks away from all.” I pray you can learn to look away from the sins and shortcomings of others and stop turning so many hearts against the Truth and sending them to hell.”
In my humble opinion, no stable minded person would suggest this, understanding the atrocities we are facing. Far from looking away, we need to really focus on this problem before we can move forward.Answer to jwnz JWNZ it’s not hard to work out who you are. You can be so helpful yet so harmful. This website is far from wicked. I’ve been told that you’ve wept for victims yet you call this website wicked. Doesn’t add up to me. Why look at something you think is wicked? The workers in New Zealand have treated victims appallingly for years so please don’t bash people who are trying their level best to advocate for those exact same victims.If anyone else wants to read the rest of the replies to jwnz here is the link to the page on wings that gives info on the site. Scroll down to the comments section and it looks like jwnz's comment about a wicked website was not received well. wingsfortruth.info/
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Post by internationalstudies on Jul 5, 2023 5:21:15 GMT -5
intelchips goes off on some atheistic tangent of his. "Jesus spoke of Noah and the flood as a historically factual occurrence. End of debate for the believer in Christ."
Good on you mountain! 👍 intel, you'll get more traction on some atheists forum. curlywurly posts more his childish nonsense. At least he's not crude and vulgar recently! 👍 foreverfree 'prophesies' "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” The storm is coming, folks!We'll see! 😉 pragmatic: Chokes on "There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also." He speaks for himself.... "large numbers of families kids not professed." Is it any wonder this is true for him? As he reveals himself in his factually incorrect posts, circular arguments and personal opinion? other 'perennials' chime in, prophets and doomsayers getting their cathartic release with giving the church/friends and workers another crack! 🤷♂️ 🤣 BUT, here is more evidence of the truth of what I posted: wingsfortruth.info/2023/06/20/to-the-workers-advocating-for-change (FALSE)evidence of what you posted. (Mary how apt that the title of this thread is...... 'the big lie!) WINGS for Truth, JWNZ / May 14, 2023 at 3.12 pm. "There is absolutely nothing edifying about this wicked website (WINGS)......I pray that you can learn to look away from the sins and shortcomings of others and stop turning so many hearts against the Truth and sending them the to hell". 2 posts later you continued: Calling it a gossip and slander channel. "Denying those who have spiritual authority over you". Responses to your posts were of disgust. Well look at this! here is Mary back after a few years with some more of her mischief! Your good mother wouldn't tolerate this, good straight shooter that lady! The 'jwnz scam' that you are trying to milk is exposed on WINGS for Truth! The very source you quote!!!!! The board moderators' correctly decided that the skunk posting as jwnz would be barred from doing so again using that avatar. The low person imposting as jwnz has ALREADY triggered a CSA victim, and now you 'mary', one who claims to a professional in the CSA field are adding fuel to the fire!! Can't believe it!!! Trying to milking it. Blinded by the chip on your shoulder you have against your late mother's church. (and of your father at the end stage of his life.) I wonder what your professional board would have to say if they knew who the 'Mary on TMB' is in real life?! I remember a few years ago you offering your services in the CSA field here on TMB. I was a bit lukewarm on the idea, questioning your suitability for the role. 😳 That ruffled your feathers! But how correct my feelings were and remain!
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Post by internationalstudies on Jul 5, 2023 5:24:26 GMT -5
Evidence of what you posted. WINGS for Truth, JWNZ / May 14, 2023 at 3.12 pm. "There is absolutely nothing edifying about this wicked website (WINGS)......I pray that you can learn to look away from the sins and shortcomings of others and stop turning so many hearts against the Truth and sending them the to hell". 2 posts later you continued: Calling it a gossip and slander channel. "Denying those who have spiritual authority over you". Responses to your posts were of disgust. I think people have missed the implications of Mary's post. Snow you certainly have! But not the implications you have in mind!!!!!!!jwnz | May 14, 2023 at 3:12 pm
There is absolutely nothing edifying about this wicked website. I’m reminded of Hymn 278. A wise worker wrote that, and one verse speaks about how he had to deal with many similar situations. “Oh for the peace of a perfect trust, that looks away from all.” I pray you can learn to look away from the sins and shortcomings of others and stop turning so many hearts against the Truth and sending them to hell.
answer I suspect this is a parody post.
If not, please be advised that in most jurisdictions, covering up crimes is considered a criminal act.
Also note. To edify is “instruct or improve (someone) morally or intellectually.” At its core, that is what this “wicked” site exercises.jwnz | May 14, 2023 at 7:17 pm I most certainly did not advocate for anyone to cover up crimes and you know it. You are the one running the extrajudicial gossip and slander channel. Making and allowing unproven and inaccurate accusations that are ruining people’s lives. Posting emails that are clearly marked private. Stirring up new outrage about cases that were decided in court years and decades ago. And worst of all, defying those who have spiritual authority over you.answer to jwnz Not okay to let this continue. This is horrifying. By attitudes like yours, the entire situation has been allowed to grow to enormous crimes. This is not what real truth is about.answer to jwnz I have worked out who you are. I am horrified by your comments. I am a professing friend and this website is doing far more to help victims than wrong. So much evil behavior by Workers, this deplorable behavior has been going well documented for over 20 years. Evil prospers when good men do nothing. You as a worker need to read and think about what I have written below. Enough is enough. We are disgusted when we see men who are not Christian’s sexually abusing. These are supposed to be our spiritual shepherds. Pure evil hypocrisy. NZ has one ex worker that has multiple victims all over the country and has never faced prison as he should. Ruined young lives.
Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.”
To those who abuse: the sin is yours, the crime is yours, and the shame is yours. To those who protect the perpetrators: blaming the victims only masks the evil within, making you as guilty as those who abuse. Stand up for the innocent or go down with the rest.
In order to escape accountability for his crimes, the perpetrator does everything in his power to promote forgetting. If secrecy fails, the perpetrator attacks the credibility of his victim. If he cannot silence her absolutely, he tries to make sure no one listens.answer to jwnz Turn away? Friends have trusted the workers to deal with things for over 40 years that I’m aware. The period of grace has gone. I notice you have little to say about the fact that each perpetrator has usually multiple victims. Each one of those children will have as a teenager and adult a life time of physiological trauma to battle with. Forgiveness and restoration comes after honesty, remorse, repentance and a consequence paid for there action. THEN and only then can restoration happen. Workers do not have spiritual authority over us – God has, with the guiding power of the Holy Spirit. Workers are Shepherds of the sheep and preachers of the message of Christ to bring salvation to the broken hearted. The lowliest of men, who are filled with humility and grateful for open homes and the care that is offered. Tending to the flock but caring for the wounded individual. Care – the provision of what is necessary for the health, welfare, maintenance and protection of someone. I suspect your a worker, concerned about your spiritual authority being challenged and power over others. Very sad shameful post.answer to jwnz I am not accusing you of being mentally unstable, but you are speaking as though you are answer to jwnz jwnz has suggested that, quote” Oh for the peace of a perfect trust, that looks away from all.” I pray you can learn to look away from the sins and shortcomings of others and stop turning so many hearts against the Truth and sending them to hell.”
In my humble opinion, no stable minded person would suggest this, understanding the atrocities we are facing. Far from looking away, we need to really focus on this problem before we can move forward.Answer to jwnz JWNZ it’s not hard to work out who you are. You can be so helpful yet so harmful. This website is far from wicked. I’ve been told that you’ve wept for victims yet you call this website wicked. Doesn’t add up to me. Why look at something you think is wicked? The workers in New Zealand have treated victims appallingly for years so please don’t bash people who are trying their level best to advocate for those exact same victims.If anyone else wants to read the rest of the replies to jwnz here is the link to the page on wings that gives info on the site. Scroll down to the comments section and it looks like jwnz's comment about a wicked website was not received well. wingsfortruth.info/Snow You are another undiscerning sucker who has fallen for the malicious deception.. Wonder if the imposter is feeling so 'clever/smug' now? It has backfired on them with the only real result being a trigger adding to the trauma of an already suffering CSA victim. I'm almost tempted in disgust to feel "May they burn in hell". A person so low, I doubt they will face up, come clean and apologise to the CSA victim they have triggered).
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Post by fixit on Jul 5, 2023 13:36:57 GMT -5
I haven't seen any reason to believe that jwnz and internationalstudies are the same person. jwnz used parody and satire to stir the pot and discredit internationalstudies who in real life has stuck his neck out on CSA in persuit of justice.
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Post by internationalstudies on Jul 5, 2023 13:47:57 GMT -5
Thank you fixit!
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