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Post by ForeverFree on Jun 18, 2023 21:07:08 GMT -5
Here's an uncomfortable truth for you. There are less and less "worldly" people professing all the time. More and more young people raised in the fellowship are leaving it. There are less and less people going "into the work". The strong base of which you speak is weakening fast. That is the reality. There is none so blind as he that can not see. And that is the reality. In our area there used to be two sets of workers, and X number of meetings. Now there is only one set of workers, and a significantly fewer number of Sunday Morning meetings. A large number of families have kids that have not professed, or in some cases only a small percentage of kids that have professed. Old age and death means the attrition rate has been high in our district, and the regeneration rate is been low, and not made up for the attrition. The number of seats occupied at Special Meetings tells the story compared to a couple of decades ago.
Ditto!
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Post by ForeverFree on Jun 18, 2023 21:10:20 GMT -5
People are finding Christ and becoming part of our church these very days. Even the most dysfunctional religious organisations say that. This being one of them!
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 18, 2023 21:17:24 GMT -5
The elitism and power started by claiming to be God's true way going as far as calling it the Truth. The workers placed themselves in a position of power over the people, eating, sleeping and using their money to live off, all in the name of God. Using the Bible to manipulate and control people by claiming to be homeless. There's nothing godly about their method. There are still suckers who believe their sad, sob story of being poor and homeless. They accuse People who can see through it as not being willing. To sacrifice yourself for the workers is sacrifice yourself for God. They've turned the Truth (of Jesus) into a lie. Maybe when more people wake up the workers might actually learn what it means to be homeless. Sadly, you are 100% correct Grant
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jwatt
Junior Member
Posts: 185
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Post by jwatt on Jun 18, 2023 22:31:16 GMT -5
The elitism and power started by claiming to be God's true way going as far as calling it the Truth. The workers placed themselves in a position of power over the people, eating, sleeping and using their money to live off, all in the name of God. Using the Bible to manipulate and control people by claiming to be homeless. There's nothing godly about their method. There are still suckers who believe their sad, sob story of being poor and homeless. They accuse People who can see through it as not being willing. To sacrifice yourself for the workers is sacrifice yourself for God. They've turned the Truth (of Jesus) into a lie. Maybe when more people wake up the workers might actually learn what it means to be homeless. Sadly, you are 100% correct Grant So true and correct.
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jwatt
Junior Member
Posts: 185
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Post by jwatt on Jun 18, 2023 22:34:51 GMT -5
Everything within the organization of this church is based on a lie. Everything is a coverup from the founding to the abuse. The workers have lied and lied and lied. Now it's all coming back to them, and it ain't pretty! They have proved over and over they don't care about csa so covering up big time. But people are waking up to the lies that their church is based on.
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Post by mountain on Jun 19, 2023 3:43:43 GMT -5
Is that so it is easier to pull out than from a stone? No, I am in the process of giving it a sharpen. And what is your current king, Charles III going to say about your preparations to seize the throne?
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Post by mountain on Jun 19, 2023 3:51:05 GMT -5
The elitism and power started by claiming to be God's true way going as far as calling it the Truth. The workers placed themselves in a position of power over the people, eating, sleeping and using their money to live off, all in the name of God. Using the Bible to manipulate and control people by claiming to be homeless. There's nothing godly about their method. There are still suckers who believe their sad, sob story of being poor and homeless. They accuse People who can see through it as not being willing. To sacrifice yourself for the workers is sacrifice yourself for God. They've turned the Truth (of Jesus) into a lie. Maybe when more people wake up the workers might actually learn what it means to be homeless. A succinct and as direct an analysis of the sect as I have seen. The recent outpourings of CSA and other abuses is certainly honing the vision of many in ways far beyond the subject of abuses and immorality.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 19, 2023 3:55:10 GMT -5
No, I am in the process of giving it a sharpen. And what is your current king, Charles III going to say about your preparations to seize the throne? haha, I used to climb with a vet from Yorkshire who reckoned that Yorkshiremen should still go down and rattle the gates and ask for a rematch of the War of the Roses. I think Charlie has not a lot to fear from my planting spade. ....https://www.timbersaws.co.nz/product/5475-ultra-lite-planting-spade-gold-
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Post by mountain on Jun 19, 2023 3:59:10 GMT -5
And what is your current king, Charles III going to say about your preparations to seize the throne? haha, I used to climb with a vet from Yorkshire who reckoned that Yorkshiremen should still go down and rattle the gates and ask for a rematch of the War of the Roses. I think Charlie has not a lot to fear from my planting spade. ....https://www.timbersaws.co.nz/product/5475-ultra-lite-planting-spade-gold- At $151.80 you can keep Royalty in luxury for a month!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 19, 2023 4:32:56 GMT -5
haha, I used to climb with a vet from Yorkshire who reckoned that Yorkshiremen should still go down and rattle the gates and ask for a rematch of the War of the Roses. I think Charlie has not a lot to fear from my planting spade. ....https://www.timbersaws.co.nz/product/5475-ultra-lite-planting-spade-gold- At $151.80 you can keep Royalty in luxury for a month! You spelt second wrong. I used to do forestry planting in the winters. That spade and I would do more than a 1000 trees a day at .30NZD so it kept me in clover.
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Post by openingact34 on Jun 19, 2023 9:07:27 GMT -5
I record this for posterity: There have been sad things happen, cleansing and change is happening. A spring can get polluted but it cleanses itself and continues to spring up from its pure source. Doomsayers and your predictions...... I state a reality that is an uncomfortable truth for you. -People are finding Christ and becoming part of our church these very days. -There is a strong base of young people, young families, young workers who have found and live in Christ and they are the future. There are such middle and old aged friends and workers also. Keep this if you wish, refer if you wish again after 10 years and see how fulfilled the doomsayers (and their cheerleaders hurrahs and 'likes') and predictions are. I will get mocked, scorned, derided and dismissed for this reality and truth that I have posted..... and I don't give a hoot about that! 😜 Here's an uncomfortable truth for you. There are less and less "worldly" people professing all the time. More and more young people raised in the fellowship are leaving it. There are less and less people going "into the work". The strong base of which you speak is weakening fast. That is the reality. There is none so blind as he that can not see. I think you are both correct. In places like the US and Australia, numbers are continuing to decline. Some workers have even said that the harvest is over in these places. Everybody left will burn in hell. But the truth is undergoing explosive growth in multiple developing countries. The workers have been led by God to places where they can rule, groom, and abuse without any interference or consequences. God is speaking there as in the Old days, without any notification letters, CSA guidelines or convention rules
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Post by deepdeep on Jun 19, 2023 9:55:29 GMT -5
Here's an uncomfortable truth for you. There are less and less "worldly" people professing all the time. More and more young people raised in the fellowship are leaving it. There are less and less people going "into the work". The strong base of which you speak is weakening fast. That is the reality. There is none so blind as he that can not see. I think you are both correct. In places like the US and Australia, numbers are continuing to decline. Some workers have even said that the harvest is over in these places. Everybody left will burn in hell. But the truth is undergoing explosive growth in multiple developing countries. The workers have been led by God to places where they can rule, groom, and abuse without any interference or consequences. God is speaking there as in the Old days, without any notification letters, CSA guidelines or convention rules Yikes!! Well...at least they are keeping with the typical terrible tradition of general christian evangelism.
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Post by deepdeep on Jun 19, 2023 10:16:26 GMT -5
One can only wonder in amazement while reading the flood of posts concerning CSA and other problems with the 2x2 church. And what I have today here is not just limited to the 2x2 church but Christianity as a whole. The reason I throw my pearls before you are because my family had a long tradition of being a part of the 2x2 church. If one didn’t allow their belief system to accept the various Christian teachings, they would be free to join realistically functioning humans and be received into a much larger support system to deal with CSA and other problems. Humanity is a class of beings that continues to update their understanding of reality and how they deal with problems. We no longer burn witches, nor blame women for being assaulted because of how they dress. We no longer practice bloodletting nor using all the barbaric treatments of the past to cure schizophrenia. If one is willing to open their mind to the possibility, they may be wrong and spend time digging deep into research they will find that most everything in the Christian Bible is plagiarized from elsewhere and the New Testament even plagiarized from the Old Testament. We all owe a death, what's waits beyond if anything no one knows. If you can accept this then get on with enjoying your life. I’m no angel but I spend all my spare time coaching youth soccer because I see that is the place I can have the most influence in teaching youth to be a team player, to look out after each other both on and off the pitch and that they also make friends for life playing the beautiful game. I have remained quite so far on this CSA thing. However, over the years I had become aware of many problems within the church, but I was more focused on the big lie rather than the problems contained inside the big lie. So, I see from the forum so many hurting, disappointed, lost, I suggest you come to a youth soccer game at RRSA and watch our youth pursue the beautiful game and for a few hours all your troubles will vanish. Be of good cheer
It is all overwhelming, I must confess that I had no idea how bad or common place the S.A. was, I didn't even know what CSA meant until I got on his forum.. It all comes down to oversight, as Elizabeth has mentioned several times, most churches have a committee, deacons, and proper bookkeeping to keep everything on the straight and narrow. With no independent branch of cross checking, or even in-house oversight, no trust can be restored.
Its not the belief system (Christianity) that's corrupt, its all the flim-flam that accompanies it. So much unscrupulous behavior and cover-ups erode confidence in leadership, or the lack thereof. Blowing-off real problems by saying "We are taking the matter under consideration", "We will let the spirit be our guide in finding a resolution", or "We will seek an answer in prayer to find a remedy to your complaint". When someone's child was molested, those type of responses just don't cut it.
The bible is spiritually inspired, it is our commonsense guide, so Workers shouldn't need to consider, pray, or wait for the Spirit to answer questions that the bible clearly addresses. Just like in soccer/football, the rules apply to everyone, there's a penalty box for violators. The Coach is Christ, there's no team players without him. The Holy Spirit convicts us with the knowledge of right from wrong, ignoring that conviction leads to trouble, that's why the ball ain't going in the net. When worldly people need to straighten out a Christian church from engaging in criminal activities, its a sad state of affairs.
From my (short) time looking into 2x2ism and reading comments here and in other internet message platforms, the level of understanding within the group of how this particular faith group is nested within the larger Christian tradition is pretty low. In my experience..this is not uncommon in more parochial faith systems. There is an attempt to make it accessible to all, but the result is an intellectually closed off system. The comments suggesting surprise and outrage over learning any of the following have been made by many members of other religious groups....you all are not alone. - That the system you were raised in wasn't perfect
- People who valued the system committed moral errors defending said system
- That system members/leader are capable of things like SA and CSA
- That explanations of the natural world within the holy texts are not supportable outside of the belief system
I guess I would caution against the spotlight syndrome that goes on in these cases. As bad as you all think this is ... it's not the first time this has happened in a church and it won't be the last. I hope you all can salvage the families, protect the vulnerable and build meaningful community that, while not perfect, can get better over time. As far as the "workers" go...sounds like that part of the whole can of worms needs to go.
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Post by Dan on Jun 19, 2023 11:48:15 GMT -5
<abbr data-timestamp="1687187786000" class="o-timestamp time" title="Jun 19, 2023 10:16:26 GMT -5">Jun 19, 2023 10:16:26 GMT -5</abbr> deepdeep said:
From my (short) time looking into 2x2ism and reading comments here and in other internet message platforms, the level of understanding within the group of how this particular faith group is nested within the larger Christian tradition is pretty low. In my experience..this is not uncommon in more parochial faith systems. There is an attempt to make it accessible to all, but the result is an intellectually closed off system. The comments suggesting surprise and outrage over learning any of the following have been made by many members of other religious groups....you all are not alone. - That the system you were raised in wasn't perfect
- People who valued the system committed moral errors defending said system
- That system members/leader are capable of things like SA and CSA
- That explanations of the natural world within the holy texts are not supportable outside of the belief system
I guess I would caution against the spotlight syndrome that goes on in these cases. As bad as you all think this is ... it's not the first time this has happened in a church and it won't be the last. I hope you all can salvage the families, protect the vulnerable and build meaningful community that, while not perfect, can get better over time. As far as the "workers" go...sounds like that part of the whole can of worms needs to go.
If it is the Truth established by Christ, then it isn't going anywhere. It may be diminished, but there will always be a remnant. Judas betrayed Christ, Peter denied him, they all ran away and hid themselves, but the Truth prevailed.
While its true that no church is perfect, its also true that the Friends don't put their faith in people, but in the Way they are convinced was established by Christ.
I agree with your entire post, except that most of the Workers aren't going anywhere. After the smoke clears from the ongoing house cleaning, I believe the ministry will continue in its same basic format.
A few changes and precautions will be injected and many infuriated and disgruntled Friends may split, but the "None But Christ Can Satisfy" crowd will remain faithful.. jmo
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2023 13:21:24 GMT -5
I remember my parents asking the Workers if this Way as an ongoing progression from when Jesus set-up his ministry. They had no definitive answer, but just claimed it was exactly as Jesus instructed in Matthew 10. So in that respect, the Truth was that they were practicing what the bible taught (itinerant Workers sent out in pairs, mtgs in the home, etc). In that sense, they were following what Jesus instructed, so the 'man' who started it was Christ.
They also said that they had no literal generation to generation records of Christ forward, but presumed Mat 10 was followed in close form, likely kept underground during the dark ages, with possible intermediate disruptions.
Well my experience was very different. Any time I asked about the beginnings, which admittedly was not very often, I was told this way went all the way back to the shores of Galilee. It had always been in the world. It was kept hidden from the wise and the prudent. I truly believe that those who attested to these things genuinely believed such things themselves. In latter times when I was standing aside from meetings, I raised these matters again with workers, mainly senior sister workers, and they all gave me the impression that they genuinely believed these things to be so and would not entertain any question that this was not the case. That's what I was always told. The group went back to the shores of Galilee. Many of us could quote that exact phrase I imagine.
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2023 13:26:02 GMT -5
Well then, let's start at the beginning. The biblical creation story featuring Adam and Eve as the first humans to ever have existed and a few people believe this story to be literally historically true as if it actually happened but I want to take you into the mythological background and let you decide at the end whether you think that it makes more sense if this is literal history or mythological symbolism. The story of Adam and Eve from The Book of Genesis in the Hebrew Bible has several parallels and similarities with earlier Sumerian stories. Sumer was an ancient civilization in Mesopotamia modern-day Southern Iraq that thrived around 4 000 to 2000 BCE and here we find a couple of Sumerian stories that are often cited as influences on the Adam and Eve narrative. I know Most have heard of the Epic of Gilgamesh, it's an ancient Mesopotamian epic that predates the biblical account of Adam and Eve. It tells the story of Gilgamesh, a legendary King and his search for immortality. In the epic there's a character named Enkidu who's created by the gods to be a wild man living in harmony with animals (does this sound familiar)? Enkidu is seduced by a temple prostitute and gains knowledge and civilization similar to the way Adam and Eve acquire knowledge in the Garden of Eden. The other one is the Atrahasis Epic, it's an ancient Mesopotamian myth that predates the biblical count of Adam and Eve and describes the creation of humans by the gods and their subsequent disobedience leading to a flood intended to wipe out Humanity. In this myth the gods create humans to be their servants and provide them with all their needs; however, the humans multiply and become too noisy disturbing the Gods and thus prompts the gods to send a flood of water to destroy Humanity. But one man named Atrahasis is warned in a dream and builds an ark to save himself, his family and animals Seems a little too much like Noah. I could go on and on but I know you will ignore all evidence and never accept the position that Adam and Eve are considered mythological figures rather than historical individuals. This is a consensus among scholarship but there are several reasons it's a consensus and why scholars lean on interpreting Adam and Eve as mythological rather than literal historical figures . But I have no intention of writing a book just to sell you a few facts. So go on, continue to believe in your myth and meanwhile Curly and I are waiting on King Authuir to return and save britton. And if by some quirk of fate you are one of the 2x2 who thinks Genesis is a myth then why would you pay any attention to the rest of a book that starts with a myth? I have Excalibur in my garden shed. Lol my mythical god of choice it Thor! After all your guy just had a sword, mine was able to sling lightening bolts around...
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2023 13:30:13 GMT -5
No, I am in the process of giving it a sharpen. And what is your current king, Charles III going to say about your preparations to seize the throne? Charles is a wimp. He doesn't stand a chance. Especially if Curly and I gang up on him. Thor is all mighty!
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2023 13:36:30 GMT -5
It is all overwhelming, I must confess that I had no idea how bad or common place the S.A. was, I didn't even know what CSA meant until I got on his forum.. It all comes down to oversight, as Elizabeth has mentioned several times, most churches have a committee, deacons, and proper bookkeeping to keep everything on the straight and narrow. With no independent branch of cross checking, or even in-house oversight, no trust can be restored. Its not the belief system (Christianity) that's corrupt, its all the flim-flam that accompanies it. So much unscrupulous behavior and cover-ups erode confidence in leadership, or the lack thereof. Blowing-off real problems by saying "We are taking the matter under consideration", "We will let the spirit be our guide in finding a resolution", or "We will seek an answer in prayer to find a remedy to your complaint". When someone's child was molested, those type of responses just don't cut it. The bible is spiritually inspired, it is our commonsense guide, so Workers shouldn't need to consider, pray, or wait for the Spirit to answer questions that the bible clearly addresses. Just like in soccer/football, the rules apply to everyone, there's a penalty box for violators. The Coach is Christ, there's no team players without him. The Holy Spirit convicts us with the knowledge of right from wrong, ignoring that conviction leads to trouble, that's why the ball ain't going in the net. When worldly people need to straighten out a Christian church from engaging in criminal activities, its a sad state of affairs.
From my (short) time looking into 2x2ism and reading comments here and in other internet message platforms, the level of understanding within the group of how this particular faith group is nested within the larger Christian tradition is pretty low. In my experience..this is not uncommon in more parochial faith systems. There is an attempt to make it accessible to all, but the result is an intellectually closed off system. The comments suggesting surprise and outrage over learning any of the following have been made by many members of other religious groups....you all are not alone. - That the system you were raised in wasn't perfect
- People who valued the system committed moral errors defending said system
- That system members/leader are capable of things like SA and CSA
- That explanations of the natural world within the holy texts are not supportable outside of the belief system
I guess I would caution against the spotlight syndrome that goes on in these cases. As bad as you all think this is ... it's not the first time this has happened in a church and it won't be the last. I hope you all can salvage the families, protect the vulnerable and build meaningful community that, while not perfect, can get better over time. As far as the "workers" go...sounds like that part of the whole can of worms needs to go. Yes this group isn't the first to go through this and won't be the last. However, I don't think this group would last very long without their authority figures, the workers. When the Alberta excommunication fiasco happened, some of the excommunicated families continued having meetings in their homes and it carried on for awhile. But without the traditional conventions, special meetings etc. it didn't last too long for the majority. The workers kept that aspect of the group going. There are many Christian denominations that have bible studies in small groups in the home, but most also have a pastor or priest in a church building to keep the community going.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jun 19, 2023 14:09:20 GMT -5
Well my experience was very different. Any time I asked about the beginnings, which admittedly was not very often, I was told this way went all the way back to the shores of Galilee. It had always been in the world. It was kept hidden from the wise and the prudent. I truly believe that those who attested to these things genuinely believed such things themselves. In latter times when I was standing aside from meetings, I raised these matters again with workers, mainly senior sister workers, and they all gave me the impression that they genuinely believed these things to be so and would not entertain any question that this was not the case. That's what I was always told. The group went back to the shores of Galilee. Many of us could quote that exact phrase I imagine. Oh yeah. Not only could we quote it, we believed it with everything that was within us. Picture this: Third year university student, taking a Western Civilization course for a Humanities requirement, that was taught from the perspective of religion. The Prof said, "If you understand the religion(s), you understand the civilization." He was, I think, largely correct. He had a student in his class, who, for the whole semester, wanted to go and tell him about this obscure little house church that pre-dated the Catholic Church. That was me. I never did. Thank God.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jun 19, 2023 14:11:03 GMT -5
And what is your current king, Charles III going to say about your preparations to seize the throne? Charles is a wimp. He doesn't stand a chance. Especially if Curly and I gang up on him. Thor is all mighty! He is a wimp. Sadly. Maybe Willy will be mightier! We can always hope.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 19, 2023 14:15:42 GMT -5
Here's an uncomfortable truth for you. There are less and less "worldly" people professing all the time. More and more young people raised in the fellowship are leaving it. There are less and less people going "into the work". The strong base of which you speak is weakening fast. That is the reality. There is none so blind as he that can not see. I think you are both correct. In places like the US and Australia, numbers are continuing to decline. Some workers have even said that the harvest is over in these places. Everybody left will burn in hell. But the truth is undergoing explosive growth in multiple developing countries. The workers have been led by God to places where they can rule, groom, and abuse without any interference or consequences. God is speaking there as in the Old days, without any notification letters, CSA guidelines or convention rules You forgot to add that the workers in developing countries have been shipped there from western countries. In light of what is being revealed now I am very suspicious of workers sent to Sri Lanka, Vietnam, USA, India and so on.
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Post by intelchips on Jun 19, 2023 14:46:05 GMT -5
<abbr data-timestamp="1687187786000" class="o-timestamp time" title="Jun 19, 2023 10:16:26 GMT -5">Jun 19, 2023 10:16:26 GMT -5</abbr> deepdeep said:
From my (short) time looking into 2x2ism and reading comments here and in other internet message platforms, the level of understanding within the group of how this particular faith group is nested within the larger Christian tradition is pretty low. In my experience..this is not uncommon in more parochial faith systems. There is an attempt to make it accessible to all, but the result is an intellectually closed off system. The comments suggesting surprise and outrage over learning any of the following have been made by many members of other religious groups....you all are not alone. - That the system you were raised in wasn't perfect
- People who valued the system committed moral errors defending said system
- That system members/leader are capable of things like SA and CSA
- That explanations of the natural world within the holy texts are not supportable outside of the belief system
I guess I would caution against the spotlight syndrome that goes on in these cases. As bad as you all think this is ... it's not the first time this has happened in a church and it won't be the last. I hope you all can salvage the families, protect the vulnerable and build meaningful community that, while not perfect, can get better over time. As far as the "workers" go...sounds like that part of the whole can of worms needs to go.
If it is the Truth established by Christ, then it isn't going anywhere. It may be diminished, but there will always be a remnant. Judas betrayed Christ, Peter denied him, they all ran away and hid themselves, but the Truth prevailed.
While its true that no church is perfect, its also true that the Friends don't put their faith in people, but in the Way they are convinced was established by Christ.
I agree with your entire post, except that most of the Workers aren't going anywhere. After the smoke clears from the ongoing house cleaning, I believe the ministry will continue in its same basic format.
A few changes and precautions will be injected and many infuriated and disgruntled Friends may split, but the "None But Christ Can Satisfy" crowd will remain faithful.. jmo
How many 2x2 recognize the divide between Jesus and Paul? From the very little secondhand and thirdhand information available we have the historical Jesus who is preaching his message of the coming kingdom of God and the need to repent because the kingdom is coming near and if you want to enter into the kingdom you need to turn back to God in order to enter into this Kingdom. And also you need to start keeping his law the way God wants you to and this is the preaching of Jesus you get throughout the gospels of the New Testament. And along comes Paul who's preaching that the way to have salvation is through the death and resurrection of Jesus and he hardly ever mentions Jesus teachings and when he does mention his teachings he does not do so from the Central teachings to what Jesus appears to have taught. So my question is who are you following Jesus or Paul?
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2023 14:57:48 GMT -5
Charles is a wimp. He doesn't stand a chance. Especially if Curly and I gang up on him. Thor is all mighty! He is a wimp. Sadly. Maybe Willy will be mightier! We can always hope. Something about Charles I have never warmed up to. I like his children better. Maybe it's Diana's influence...?
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2023 15:00:53 GMT -5
If it is the Truth established by Christ, then it isn't going anywhere. It may be diminished, but there will always be a remnant. Judas betrayed Christ, Peter denied him, they all ran away and hid themselves, but the Truth prevailed.
While its true that no church is perfect, its also true that the Friends don't put their faith in people, but in the Way they are convinced was established by Christ.
I agree with your entire post, except that most of the Workers aren't going anywhere. After the smoke clears from the ongoing house cleaning, I believe the ministry will continue in its same basic format.
A few changes and precautions will be injected and many infuriated and disgruntled Friends may split, but the "None But Christ Can Satisfy" crowd will remain faithful.. jmo
How many 2x2 recognize the divide between Jesus and Paul? From the very little secondhand and thirdhand information available we have the historical Jesus who is preaching his message of the coming kingdom of God and the need to repent because the kingdom is coming near and if you want to enter into the kingdom you need to turn back to God in order to enter into this Kingdom. And also you need to start keeping his law the way God wants you to and this is the preaching of Jesus you get throughout the gospels of the New Testament. And along comes Paul who's preaching that the way to have salvation is through the death and resurrection of Jesus and he hardly ever mentions Jesus teachings and when he does mention his teachings he does not do so from the Central teachings to what Jesus appears to have taught. So my question is who are you following Jesus or Paul? imo, Paul. Jesus to Paul seemed to be more based on the dying/rising God man then the actual physical person of Jesus and his teachings. That's probably why there was a divide between the original apostles and the self proclaimed one, Paul.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jun 19, 2023 15:05:11 GMT -5
How many 2x2 recognize the divide between Jesus and Paul? From the very little secondhand and thirdhand information available we have the historical Jesus who is preaching his message of the coming kingdom of God and the need to repent because the kingdom is coming near and if you want to enter into the kingdom you need to turn back to God in order to enter into this Kingdom. And also you need to start keeping his law the way God wants you to and this is the preaching of Jesus you get throughout the gospels of the New Testament. And along comes Paul who's preaching that the way to have salvation is through the death and resurrection of Jesus and he hardly ever mentions Jesus teachings and when he does mention his teachings he does not do so from the Central teachings to what Jesus appears to have taught. So my question is who are you following Jesus or Paul? Even when I was a painfully earnest 2X2 (oh, yes, I was), I was very aware of the divide between Jesus and Paul. I never liked Paul very much and, in my mind, I probably conflated him with the workers who were saying "Don't do this, or this, or that". I was probably mostly right in that assessment.
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Post by Dan on Jun 19, 2023 15:20:10 GMT -5
If it is the Truth established by Christ, then it isn't going anywhere. It may be diminished, but there will always be a remnant. Judas betrayed Christ, Peter denied him, they all ran away and hid themselves, but the Truth prevailed.
While its true that no church is perfect, its also true that the Friends don't put their faith in people, but in the Way they are convinced was established by Christ.
I agree with your entire post, except that most of the Workers aren't going anywhere. After the smoke clears from the ongoing house cleaning, I believe the ministry will continue in its same basic format.
A few changes and precautions will be injected and many infuriated and disgruntled Friends may split, but the "None But Christ Can Satisfy" crowd will remain faithful.. jmo
How many 2x2 recognize the divide between Jesus and Paul? From the very little secondhand and thirdhand information available we have the historical Jesus who is preaching his message of the coming kingdom of God and the need to repent because the kingdom is coming near and if you want to enter into the kingdom you need to turn back to God in order to enter into this Kingdom. And also you need to start keeping his law the way God wants you to and this is the preaching of Jesus you get throughout the gospels of the New Testament. And along comes Paul who's preaching that the way to have salvation is through the death and resurrection of Jesus and he hardly ever mentions Jesus teachings and when he does mention his teachings he does not do so from the Central teachings to what Jesus appears to have taught. So my question is who are you following Jesus or Paul?
I don't see the contradictions that you do. “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6). The law aside, without the redemptive power of Christ, we're all dead meat. That was also Paul's overriding message. "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31 ESV). We were inspired to keep the commandments by Christ and Paul, but salvation is not dependent on that alone, because the Cross defeated the curse of the law.
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2023 15:20:36 GMT -5
How many 2x2 recognize the divide between Jesus and Paul? From the very little secondhand and thirdhand information available we have the historical Jesus who is preaching his message of the coming kingdom of God and the need to repent because the kingdom is coming near and if you want to enter into the kingdom you need to turn back to God in order to enter into this Kingdom. And also you need to start keeping his law the way God wants you to and this is the preaching of Jesus you get throughout the gospels of the New Testament. And along comes Paul who's preaching that the way to have salvation is through the death and resurrection of Jesus and he hardly ever mentions Jesus teachings and when he does mention his teachings he does not do so from the Central teachings to what Jesus appears to have taught. So my question is who are you following Jesus or Paul? Even when I was a painfully earnest 2X2 (oh, yes, I was), I was very aware of the divide between Jesus and Paul. I never liked Paul very much and, in my mind, I probably conflated him with the workers who were saying "Don't do this, or this, or that". I was probably mostly right in that assessment. How old were you when you left? I never saw that before I left. Over the years I've read a lot of the beginnings of Christianity and it became clear to me then. I chuckled at your comment that the don't do this and that were more 'Paul'. I agree.
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2023 15:23:42 GMT -5
How many 2x2 recognize the divide between Jesus and Paul? From the very little secondhand and thirdhand information available we have the historical Jesus who is preaching his message of the coming kingdom of God and the need to repent because the kingdom is coming near and if you want to enter into the kingdom you need to turn back to God in order to enter into this Kingdom. And also you need to start keeping his law the way God wants you to and this is the preaching of Jesus you get throughout the gospels of the New Testament. And along comes Paul who's preaching that the way to have salvation is through the death and resurrection of Jesus and he hardly ever mentions Jesus teachings and when he does mention his teachings he does not do so from the Central teachings to what Jesus appears to have taught. So my question is who are you following Jesus or Paul? I don't see the contradictions that you do. “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6). The law aside, without the redemptive power of Christ, we're all dead meat. That was also Paul's overriding message. "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31 ESV). We were inspired to keep the commandments by Christ and Paul, but salvation is not dependent on that alone, because the Cross defeated the curse of the law.
Why do you call the law a 'curse'. I find that interesting. Some of the commandments are good ideas for a cohesive society. The 1st and 2nd commandments are just god related, but do not kill, do not commit adultery etc. are all good ideas if we want a more peaceful society to live in.
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