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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 24, 2023 14:48:27 GMT -5
Here's a tip. Rather than studying the bible, study how it came to be, the timelines, and everything surrounding the creation of the bible, and also specifically the version you are most fond of. After you are familiar with most of that, again read the Bible with the new information you have learned in mind. And the historical context of when this movement arose, the Victorian era, is also really important to understand. It was a time of huge change when you consider the Industrial Revolution, science and Darwinism, women beginning to demand rights and speaking up, and immense change in religion. The Victorians are known as the first modern doubters of the bible. It was a time of an explosion of evangelism and the ability due change of laws to actually choose your religion. The mainstream religions moved towards more of the outward symbols the friend in a previous post is opposed to. They were adopted in the Victorian era. At the same time there was a rebellion towards returning to the simplicity of the gospels. Lots of push and pull. And if you read some of the writings of that time the debates are so similar to now. I will post article that puts this all together in a fairly readable form and look at page 5 and a paragraph that addresses Ireland in particular. In short, it is not surprising the beginnings of this group arose at that time. How it has evolved would greatly surprise and disappoint those who started the movement. Evangilical religion such as what Irvine and Cooney preached offered a lifeline to lift people out of what they felt were hard times. Religion gave people comfort and hope. It was very much the opiate of the masses. Selling drugs has a lot in common with religions, especially ones like the 2x2's
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Post by SharonArnold on May 24, 2023 15:53:37 GMT -5
orca.cardiff.ac.uk/id/eprint/122273/3/2.+Heimann+UK.Victorian+Piety+and+the+Revival+of+Material+Religion+in+Britain.8+May+2019.pdfThe article re religion and Victorian Britain and Ireland page 5. In case anyone is interested. It didn’t come out of nowhere. Evangelical groups were everywhere as it became legal to preach on a street corner. We tend to see this birth of the 2 by 2’s not only through our lens but as a singular event rather than something that happened as a result of the massive historical change of that time.. To separate it is to not understand it and to assume God was a part of all or part of it. It becomes mysterious and elevated. Just food for thought. Very true. When you have some understanding of the context, the mysterious and elevated become, well, not so mysterious and elevated. I think this is true of all people and of all times. When I was in the leaving process from the 2X2's, I sometimes wondered if my grandparents would be disappointed in me. (Yeah, I know, I think too much, and about too many things.) My maternal grandfather professed somewhere around 1915 in the Lafleche area of Saskatchewan. My paternal grandmother professed around 1925, where her family had homesteaded in rural Manitoba and (as craftsmen and furniture makers) had built the local Church of England there. There was no end to the family legends (and pride) surrounding their surrender to (and embrace of) 2X2ism. What helped me in the leaving process and all the years since, was understanding that their choice for 2X2ism was one of life and liberty and a kind of self-determination. A clean sweep of what had become moribund for them. (One way to look at it, is that they were kind of the hippies of their era.) When I chose to leave 2X2ism 70/80 years later, my motivations were probably largely the same. My contrariness and rebelliousness (and hunger for more) was deeply embedded in my genes.
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Post by snow on May 24, 2023 17:24:06 GMT -5
And the historical context of when this movement arose, the Victorian era, is also really important to understand. It was a time of huge change when you consider the Industrial Revolution, science and Darwinism, women beginning to demand rights and speaking up, and immense change in religion. The Victorians are known as the first modern doubters of the bible. It was a time of an explosion of evangelism and the ability due change of laws to actually choose your religion. The mainstream religions moved towards more of the outward symbols the friend in a previous post is opposed to. They were adopted in the Victorian era. At the same time there was a rebellion towards returning to the simplicity of the gospels. Lots of push and pull. And if you read some of the writings of that time the debates are so similar to now. I will post article that puts this all together in a fairly readable form and look at page 5 and a paragraph that addresses Ireland in particular. In short, it is not surprising the beginnings of this group arose at that time. How it has evolved would greatly surprise and disappoint those who started the movement. Evangilical religion such as what Irvine and Cooney preached offered a lifeline to lift people out of what they felt were hard times. Religion gave people comfort and hope. It was very much the opiate of the masses. Selling drugs has a lot in common with religions, especially ones like the 2x2's Too bad Americans can't stop that drug at the border...
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Post by snow on May 24, 2023 17:30:20 GMT -5
orca.cardiff.ac.uk/id/eprint/122273/3/2.+Heimann+UK.Victorian+Piety+and+the+Revival+of+Material+Religion+in+Britain.8+May+2019.pdfThe article re religion and Victorian Britain and Ireland page 5. In case anyone is interested. It didn’t come out of nowhere. Evangelical groups were everywhere as it became legal to preach on a street corner. We tend to see this birth of the 2 by 2’s not only through our lens but as a singular event rather than something that happened as a result of the massive historical change of that time.. To separate it is to not understand it and to assume God was a part of all or part of it. It becomes mysterious and elevated. Just food for thought. Very true. When you have some understanding of the context, the mysterious and elevated become, well, not so mysterious and elevated. I think this is true of all people and of all times. When I was in the leaving process from the 2X2's, I sometimes wondered if my grandparents would be disappointed in me. (Yeah, I know, I think too much, and about too many things.) My maternal grandfather professed somewhere around 1915 in the Lafleche area of Saskatchewan. My paternal grandmother professed around 1925, where her family had homesteaded in rural Manitoba and (as craftsmen and furniture makers) had built the local Church of England there. There was no end to the family legends (and pride) surrounding their surrender to (and embrace of) 2X2ism. What helped me in the leaving process and all the years since, was understanding that their choice for 2X2ism was one of life and liberty and a kind of self-determination. A clean sweep of what had become moribund for them. (One way to look at it, is that they were kind of the hippies of their era.) When I chose to leave 2X2ism 70/80 years later, my motivations were probably largely the same. My contrariness and rebelliousness (and hunger for more) was deeply embedded in my genes. Sounds like my history. Southern Saskatchewan in about 1918 for my paternal grandfather and my maternal grandmother was around the same time also in Southern Saskatchewan. Many stories. My grandfather just lost his wife to the 1918 flu and the workers came and spent the winter on his ranch and helped a lot. My grandmother loved to dance and so when she professed all her 'worldly' friends and family swore it would never last. It did though. My maternal grandfather never professed and none of my mother's brothers and sisters did either. So just mom and Grandma. On my dad's side it was my grandfather and my dad and one sister. None of the others in the family ever professed.
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Post by fixit on May 24, 2023 18:28:28 GMT -5
How it has evolved would greatly surprise and disappoint those who started the movement. I believe that as well. Goodhand Pattison was there at the beginning, and he wrote of the change even in the first quarter century. He wrote the following in 1925, referring to William Irvine: www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/pattisong.php
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Post by fixit on May 24, 2023 18:31:44 GMT -5
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Post by Admin on May 24, 2023 19:06:12 GMT -5
Some of these comments on how the F&W fellowship has evolved from its beginnings in 1897 and perhaps, clues to how we have arrived at where we are right now (April-May, 2023), seem worth collating for future reference. (One day, this will all be history too) I've copied some of these recent posts to a new thread professing.proboards.com/thread/32031/evolution-2x2-movement-present-dayFeel free to contribute thoughts and perspectives to that new area/thread. For posterity!
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Post by getreal on May 24, 2023 22:15:21 GMT -5
How it has evolved would greatly surprise and disappoint those who started the movement. I believe that as well. Goodhand Pattison was there at the beginning, and he wrote of the change even in the first quarter century. He wrote the following in 1925, referring to William Irvine: www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/pattisong.phpWhat wonderful, insightful observations. Someone said above they think too much. Well the Victorians thought a lot. I love the denunciation of the Sunday suit. Anything can be a source of inordinate pride. Wearing a bun and a dress and stockings and not wearing jewelry or make up is as problematic as wearing clerical robes and lighting candles if it is relied upon too much as a way to heaven.
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Post by mrdobalina on May 25, 2023 1:33:32 GMT -5
Here's a tip. Rather than studying the bible, study how it came to be, the timelines, and everything surrounding the creation of the bible, and also specifically the version you are most fond of. After you are familiar with most of that, again read the Bible with the new information you have learned in mind. And the historical context of when this movement arose, the Victorian era, is also really important to understand. It was a time of huge change when you consider the Industrial Revolution, science and Darwinism, women beginning to demand rights and speaking up, and immense change in religion. The Victorians are known as the first modern doubters of the bible. It was a time of an explosion of evangelism and the ability due change of laws to actually choose your religion. The mainstream religions moved towards more of the outward symbols the friend in a previous post is opposed to. They were adopted in the Victorian era. At the same time there was a rebellion towards returning to the simplicity of the gospels. Lots of push and pull. And if you read some of the writings of that time the debates are so similar to now. I will post article that puts this all together in a fairly readable form and look at page 5 and a paragraph that addresses Ireland in particular. In short, it is not surprising the beginnings of this group arose at that time. How it has evolved would greatly surprise and disappoint those who started the movement. Jesus never knew what a Bible was. There's a solid possibility that he may be horrified at what was written about him.
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Post by chuck on May 25, 2023 5:45:08 GMT -5
And the historical context of when this movement arose, the Victorian era, is also really important to understand. It was a time of huge change when you consider the Industrial Revolution, science and Darwinism, women beginning to demand rights and speaking up, and immense change in religion. The Victorians are known as the first modern doubters of the bible. It was a time of an explosion of evangelism and the ability due change of laws to actually choose your religion. The mainstream religions moved towards more of the outward symbols the friend in a previous post is opposed to. They were adopted in the Victorian era. At the same time there was a rebellion towards returning to the simplicity of the gospels. Lots of push and pull. And if you read some of the writings of that time the debates are so similar to now. I will post article that puts this all together in a fairly readable form and look at page 5 and a paragraph that addresses Ireland in particular. In short, it is not surprising the beginnings of this group arose at that time. How it has evolved would greatly surprise and disappoint those who started the movement. Jesus never knew what a Bible was. There's a solid possibility that he may be horrified at what was written about him. I reackon there is more truth in that than "the truth".....
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Post by getreal on May 25, 2023 11:34:35 GMT -5
And the historical context of when this movement arose, the Victorian era, is also really important to understand. It was a time of huge change when you consider the Industrial Revolution, science and Darwinism, women beginning to demand rights and speaking up, and immense change in religion. The Victorians are known as the first modern doubters of the bible. It was a time of an explosion of evangelism and the ability due change of laws to actually choose your religion. The mainstream religions moved towards more of the outward symbols the friend in a previous post is opposed to. They were adopted in the Victorian era. At the same time there was a rebellion towards returning to the simplicity of the gospels. Lots of push and pull. And if you read some of the writings of that time the debates are so similar to now. I will post article that puts this all together in a fairly readable form and look at page 5 and a paragraph that addresses Ireland in particular. In short, it is not surprising the beginnings of this group arose at that time. How it has evolved would greatly surprise and disappoint those who started the movement. Jesus never knew what a Bible was. There's a solid possibility that he may be horrified at what was written about him. This is another subject, the validity of every word of the Bible. A touchy one here no doubt. However, an understanding of the history of the Bible as we see it today as mentioned many times above is paramount. In fact, there are mistakes in the bible and for those who believe, it does not need to undermine your faith necessarily, but accepting the Bible itself as fallible will inform it definitely. I see the bible as a tool to use, written by fallible humans, read by fallible humans of limited understanding stumbling towards something true. My view.
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Post by mrdobalina on May 25, 2023 15:54:36 GMT -5
Jesus never knew what a Bible was. There's a solid possibility that he may be horrified at what was written about him. This is another subject, the validity of every word of the Bible. A touchy one here no doubt. However, an understanding of the history of the Bible as we see it today as mentioned many times above is paramount. In fact, there are mistakes in the bible and for those who believe, it does not need to undermine your faith necessarily, but accepting the Bible itself as fallible will inform it definitely. I see the bible as a tool to use, written by fallible humans, read by fallible humans of limited understanding stumbling towards something true. My view. I see it as a tool to use to stop a table from rocking.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 25, 2023 15:58:45 GMT -5
This is another subject, the validity of every word of the Bible. A touchy one here no doubt. However, an understanding of the history of the Bible as we see it today as mentioned many times above is paramount. In fact, there are mistakes in the bible and for those who believe, it does not need to undermine your faith necessarily, but accepting the Bible itself as fallible will inform it definitely. I see the bible as a tool to use, written by fallible humans, read by fallible humans of limited understanding stumbling towards something true. My view. I see it as a tool to use to stop a table from rocking. They don't make very good door stoppers and the paper is too thin to use in the dunny.
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Post by mrdobalina on May 25, 2023 16:30:57 GMT -5
I see it as a tool to use to stop a table from rocking. They don't make very good door stoppers and the paper is too thin to use in the dunny. I used a page to smoke hooch with in my youth. It was revelations I think.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 25, 2023 16:35:35 GMT -5
They don't make very good door stoppers and the paper is too thin to use in the dunny. I used a page to smoke hooch with in my youth. It was revelations I think. Have you seen the latest chapter in revelations. It's all about the creepy brother workers?
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Post by mrdobalina on May 25, 2023 19:00:57 GMT -5
I used a page to smoke hooch with in my youth. It was revelations I think. Have you seen the latest chapter in revelations. It's all about the creepy brother workers? No and it's unlikely I will, as I don't own a buy bull
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2023 19:04:50 GMT -5
And the historical context of when this movement arose, the Victorian era, is also really important to understand. It was a time of huge change when you consider the Industrial Revolution, science and Darwinism, women beginning to demand rights and speaking up, and immense change in religion. The Victorians are known as the first modern doubters of the bible. It was a time of an explosion of evangelism and the ability due change of laws to actually choose your religion. The mainstream religions moved towards more of the outward symbols the friend in a previous post is opposed to. They were adopted in the Victorian era. At the same time there was a rebellion towards returning to the simplicity of the gospels. Lots of push and pull. And if you read some of the writings of that time the debates are so similar to now. I will post article that puts this all together in a fairly readable form and look at page 5 and a paragraph that addresses Ireland in particular. In short, it is not surprising the beginnings of this group arose at that time. How it has evolved would greatly surprise and disappoint those who started the movement. Jesus never knew what a Bible was. There's a solid possibility that he may be horrified at what was written about him. Ummm Christ wouldn't have known? Since when?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2023 19:54:20 GMT -5
Jesus never knew what a Bible was. There's a solid possibility that he may be horrified at what was written about him. This is another subject, the validity of every word of the Bible. A touchy one here no doubt. However, an understanding of the history of the Bible as we see it today as mentioned many times above is paramount. In fact, there are mistakes in the bible and for those who believe, it does not need to undermine your faith necessarily, but accepting the Bible itself as fallible will inform it definitely. I see the bible as a tool to use, written by fallible humans, read by fallible humans of limited understanding stumbling towards something true. My view. Typo's are not a problem...
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Post by mrdobalina on May 25, 2023 20:57:03 GMT -5
Jesus never knew what a Bible was. There's a solid possibility that he may be horrified at what was written about him. Ummm Christ wouldn't have known? Since when? Take as much time as you need to think about that one. Happy to help if you get stuck.
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Post by getreal on May 25, 2023 23:46:35 GMT -5
They don't make very good door stoppers and the paper is too thin to use in the dunny. I used a page to smoke hooch with in my youth. It was revelations I think. You guys are so funny. I take great pains to try to not offend fundamentalist believers but I suspect I fail miserably. They hate me.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 25, 2023 23:49:00 GMT -5
I used a page to smoke hooch with in my youth. It was revelations I think. You guys are so funny. I take great pains to try to not offend fundamentalist believers but I suspect I fail miserably. They hate me. That sounds like success.
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Post by getreal on May 26, 2023 0:04:26 GMT -5
Curly I feel I know you. Can I call you cws for short 🙂
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tulip2
Junior Member
Posts: 176
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Post by tulip2 on May 26, 2023 0:18:22 GMT -5
What has happened to the resident Oracle? Questions seem to be lapsing unanswered.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 26, 2023 0:21:23 GMT -5
Curly I feel I know you. Can I call you cws for short 🙂 There were two succeesful and famous mountaineers. Bill Tilman and Eric Shipton. Both english gentlemen. One of them tells the story in a book he wrote that they were perched high on a mountain somewhere and Eric said to Bill. We have been climbing together for several years and we still call each other by our surnames, can I call you Bill and you call me Eric The answer was no. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Shiptonen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_TilmanI hope you enjoy reading about these two great men. I met Shipton's son a few years ago after he and a friend of mine crossed the Patagonian ice field. It is men and women like these that I find to be truly inspiring. You can call me what you like.
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Post by getreal on May 26, 2023 0:22:41 GMT -5
I know. Justbekind have you left forever? We are lost without you 🙃
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Post by getreal on May 26, 2023 0:38:59 GMT -5
Curly I feel I know you. Can I call you cws for short 🙂 There were two succeesful and famous mountaineers. Bill Tilman and Eric Shipton. Both english gentlemen. One of them tells the story in a book he wrote that they were perched high on a mountain somewhere and Eric said to Bill. We have been climbing together for several years and we still call each other by our surnames, can I call you Bill and you call me Eric The answer was no. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Shiptonen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_TilmanI hope you enjoy reading about these two great men. I met Shipton's son a few years ago after he and a friend of mine crossed the Patagonian ice field. It is men and women like these that I find to be truly inspiring. You can call me what you like. [b What a great story. So funny. So of that time. Such civility. Such decorum as we lack today. I looked at their life account through your links. Adventurers of the highest ranks. Anyone can climb Everest now but in those days with none of the equipment of today. It meant something. How interesting to have met shipton’s son!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 26, 2023 0:52:18 GMT -5
There were two succeesful and famous mountaineers. Bill Tilman and Eric Shipton. Both english gentlemen. One of them tells the story in a book he wrote that they were perched high on a mountain somewhere and Eric said to Bill. We have been climbing together for several years and we still call each other by our surnames, can I call you Bill and you call me Eric The answer was no. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Shiptonen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_TilmanI hope you enjoy reading about these two great men. I met Shipton's son a few years ago after he and a friend of mine crossed the Patagonian ice field. It is men and women like these that I find to be truly inspiring. You can call me what you like. [b What a great story. So funny. So of that time. Such civility. Such decorum as we lack today. I looked at their life account through your links. Adventurers of the highest ranks. Anyone can climb Everest now but in those days with none of the equipment of today. It meant something. How interesting to have met shipton’s son! The wikipedia account of both is rather simplified. Tilman was bored in his role in WW2 so applied for some clandestine duty. He was rejected because of his age but he persisted and was trained to parachute and also in some other necessary activities. He was then parachuted behind enemy lines and worked there arranging supplies to the underground. That's a very dangerous job. Another "job" he performed was for a group of NZ and Aussy climbers who wanted to climb Australia's highest mountain. To do so the needed a decent sort of boat and so bought one and asked Tilman to skipper it. They sailed west from Australia to Heard Island and climbed Big Ben and then sailed home. Tilman only used a sextant and chronograph for his navigation and was spot on. He joined a voyage to the Antacrtic in 1977 with some friends to do some climbing and that little ship went down. He was 80.
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Post by getreal on May 26, 2023 1:07:58 GMT -5
So he died?
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