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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 2:45:27 GMT -5
How does it make you feel? This is my spiritual family, closer than blood with some. so I’m sure I feel the same feelings you would have if this was your natural family and loved ones who disappointed you and betrayed you, fixit. Do we need to go over your family tree again, fixit?
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 2:47:49 GMT -5
How does it make you feel? This is my spiritual family, closer than blood with some. so I’m sure I feel the same feelings you would have if this was your natural family and loved ones who disappointed you and betrayed you, fixit.
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Post by fixit on May 23, 2023 4:18:54 GMT -5
How does it make you feel? This is my spiritual family, closer than blood with some. so I’m sure I feel the same feelings you would have if this was your natural family and loved ones who disappointed you and betrayed you, fixit. Do we need to go over your family tree again, fixit? No. What you need to do is to be happy to answer questions and always be kind.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 4:39:20 GMT -5
This is my spiritual family, closer than blood with some. so I’m sure I feel the same feelings you would have if this was your natural family and loved ones who disappointed you and betrayed you, fixit. Do we need to go over your family tree again, fixit? No. What you need to do is to be happy to answer questions and always be kind. You’re right, that is my goal. I will be happy to answer questions, just not from you anymore.
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Post by Dan on May 23, 2023 5:03:10 GMT -5
Here's a question or two for you alwaysbekind. It says in Genesis that the earth was without form and void. And that was the first day. On the fourth day the sun and the moon and the stars were made. What did the earth orbit and what held it in its orbit prior to the sun being there? It takes 365 days for the earth to orbit the sun which is where we get our year from. The earth spins on its axis and one complete spin gives us our day. 365 of those spins and we have a year. How can there be days one, two and three prior to the sun being there? day noun: a particular period of the past; an era. "in Shakespeare's day"
I personally believe the heavens and earth existed in the beginning, prior to day 1 (Genesis 1:1). Day 4 is God assigning a purpose for the sun, moon, and stars (verse 14). And in verse 16 “God made two great lights” is relating to an unspecified time. Hebrew does not have a past perfect tense, so "God made' (pluperfect) could be relating to an unspecified time when God had made (created) the sun and moon. The literal translation (Young's) says in vs 15 that they "have been" for lights, denoting the past tense of them having already been created. www.icr.org/article/star-formation-genesis-1/
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Post by matisse on May 23, 2023 5:03:13 GMT -5
No. What you need to do is to be happy to answer questions and always be kind. You’re right, that is my goal. I will be happy to answer questions, just not from you anymore. This sounds like a form of shunning. Is this how you respond to fellow meeting goers who offend you?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 23, 2023 7:44:27 GMT -5
Be sure not to eat shellfish or wear mixed fabrics. That's in your "how to" manual, as well as swapping 200 Pharisee foreskins for a wife. Paragraph four sums up what's wrong with your death cult quite nicely. Philistine foreskins. Just to be accurate.
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Post by matisse on May 23, 2023 8:11:01 GMT -5
Look, i’m not going to go round and round and round with some of you, I don’t think that’s productive and a waste of my time, and your time. And Time is our most precious commodity in life. to be honest, I think some of you think I’m delusional, and I have my head in the sand, and I am gladly naïve to what’s going on. I can only speak about my experience is my whole life, (as true with all of us) and the five states I have lived, and in all of my dealings and hearings of the Truth/workers/friends. And you can’t change that To be honest, I think some of you are delusional, and have no grasp on the whole picture and have build up stories and conspiracies (some obviously arnt conspiracies) in your mind that have come from a negative place inside of you. I think some of you are out of touch. But your perception is your reality. And I can’t change that. But to be honest, I think we have a lot in common. I think we want a better, more refined version of the truth. I think what that looks like, and how to get there’s, is where we differ. I hope we are all examining ourselves at the same time, and have this same energy in refining and bettering ourselves too. Because at the end of the day, that’s what this is all about, bettering ourselves, and making us more like Jesus. Trying to make it to heaven, and we have to help each other get there. And if you don’t believe in heaven and hell, I sure hope you’re right, for your sake…because a lost eternity is a long and torturous time to be wrong. From a practical standpoint: If someone who follows Jesus is wrong about eternity, the worst case scenario is they live a clean life and are good humans and citizens. The worst case scenario for an unbeliever is an eternity of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Just some food for thought. More food for thought: There is at least one other worst-case possibility....that people following Jesus have inadvertently chosen to worship the wrong jealous, judgemental, and vengeful god.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 23, 2023 8:35:04 GMT -5
Okay, I am not sure what you mean alwaysbekind. Have you watched the 60 Minutes episode? My point was, people in Australia have been wanting change for many years. Surely after the exposure that the Workers got after 60 Minutes they would have done something ! This is why people get angry because nothing was done !
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Post by deepdeep on May 23, 2023 8:56:05 GMT -5
I think the way you put this is a common way that believers think about athiesm and agnosticism. The two options presented, following Jesus or being an unbeliever, is a a sidestep that does not include the people who are unexamined-ly participating in a nominally faith based system that may or may not be following Jesus in whole or in part. This group of people suffer the most. They are the ones who bear the burden of not being truly supported by an earnest, serious spiritual leadership...they are the ones who will unwittingly participate in cover-ups, perpetuate religious trauma, be traumatized, and still fall short of salvation (depending upon your conception of salvation). The athiest at least gets their natural life to make the most of, unburdened by the shame and guilt so associated with "western" Christianity. The misled adherent will suffer in this life and the next. It is very common amongst believers, because that is exactly what Jesus said. There will be a dividing of sheep and goats. The good fish in the bad fish. God will turn away those on the judgment day and say I never knew you. not everything needs to be complicated. I would venture to say a lot things are very simple and should be kept that way. Following the philosophically and scripturally accurate tenants of Jesus' teachings is not the same as being a member of a modern manifestation of the Christian movement. The general church member will always be susceptible to a leadership that is not seriously steeped in the actual intellectual tradition. Your group seems to not take seriously the philosophical underpinnings that have been built up over centuries to shore up the "simple" things you describe. In fact.... Your groups leadership even seems hostile to it. If that is the case.... It will lead to a group of people that fall into that third category I described..... People who "miss the mark" and don't even know it.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 10:15:34 GMT -5
Okay, I am not sure what you mean alwaysbekind. Have you watched the 60 Minutes episode? My point was, people in Australia have been wanting change for many years. Surely after the exposure that the Workers got after 60 Minutes they would have done something ! This is why people get angry because nothing was done ! I have not watched the 60 minutes. It’s not news to me that in Australia, and in the US, there’s been a cry for change.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 10:22:23 GMT -5
alwaysbekind was asked: Can you shortly tell me what you believe a individual should do to be saved? alwaysbekind responded "Yes, the bible is your guide…everything is in there. its a great How-To " I would humbly submit that any person or preacher in any church/denomination/group could give this answer. It is a complete non-answer. What exactly do you - alwaysbekind - do, that saves you? If a complete non-believer asked you this question, would you really give this response? John 3:16.... But that seems too simple, lets complicate it and invent a ton of rules and restrictions.
Of course, making it to heaven is one thing, but I believe rewards will be dished out in accordance with individual faith/works. (Matthew 6:20). What does the word believe mean to you in John 3:16? What rules and restrictions are you specifically referring to? It does seem like the Bible talks about 1) and inheritance that every child of God, who makes it to heaven gets and 2) our own individual reward for the treasure we have laid up in heaven… what you call Faith/works
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 10:31:50 GMT -5
Look, i’m not going to go round and round and round with some of you, I don’t think that’s productive and a waste of my time, and your time. And Time is our most precious commodity in life. to be honest, I think some of you think I’m delusional, and I have my head in the sand, and I am gladly naïve to what’s going on. I can only speak about my experience is my whole life, (as true with all of us) and the five states I have lived, and in all of my dealings and hearings of the Truth/workers/friends. And you can’t change that To be honest, I think some of you are delusional, and have no grasp on the whole picture and have build up stories and conspiracies (some obviously arnt conspiracies) in your mind that have come from a negative place inside of you. I think some of you are out of touch. But your perception is your reality. And I can’t change that. But to be honest, I think we have a lot in common. I think we want a better, more refined version of the truth. I think what that looks like, and how to get there’s, is where we differ. I hope we are all examining ourselves at the same time, and have this same energy in refining and bettering ourselves too. Because at the end of the day, that’s what this is all about, bettering ourselves, and making us more like Jesus. Trying to make it to heaven, and we have to help each other get there. And if you don’t believe in heaven and hell, I sure hope you’re right, for your sake…because a lost eternity is a long and torturous time to be wrong. From a practical standpoint: If someone who follows Jesus is wrong about eternity, the worst case scenario is they live a clean life and are good humans and citizens. The worst case scenario for an unbeliever is an eternity of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Just some food for thought. More food for thought: There is at least one other worst-case possibility....that people following Jesus have inadvertently chosen to worship the wrong jealous, judgemental, and vengeful god. you do make an interesting point. I guess the thought that comes to mind on that is that none of us has experienced the other side of death, so we just have to examine our own heart, and be honest with ourselves, and be true to what has been revealed to us, whatever way that might be.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 10:37:01 GMT -5
You’re right, that is my goal. I will be happy to answer questions, just not from you anymore. This sounds like a form of shunning. Is this how you respond to fellow meeting goers who offend you? Have you ever considered there might another reason? Both of your assumptions are not close to the reason why I won’t be responding to that poster, or some other posters on here. Here’s a hint, one of the reasons you just did… you are helping me make my point. But I’ll let you try to see the other side before I respond, If you’re capable of that.
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Post by verna on May 23, 2023 10:45:14 GMT -5
No. What you need to do is to be happy to answer questions and always be kind. You’re right, that is my goal. I will be happy to answer questions, just not from you anymore. It is my experience that Fixit is building a bridge with people who have left the 2x2s in a way that I have seldom seen. I find his comments to be healing. I am grateful for him.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 11:11:38 GMT -5
You’re right, that is my goal. I will be happy to answer questions, just not from you anymore. It is my experience that Fixit is building a bridge with people who have left the 2x2s in a way that I have seldom seen. I find his comments to be healing. I am grateful for him. I’m truly glad he has helped you. Help is help from whatever source you get it from. But for me, as someone in the Truth, fixit may have built a bridge, but, for me it’s full of booby traps, trying to twist your words, trying to take things out of context, trying to catch you in your words. (I don’t know if fixit is in her out of the truth, it doesn’t matter) His/her bridge is nothing I want to be a part of. But I can only speak from my own experience with the person.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 11:12:58 GMT -5
It is my experience that Fixit is building a bridge with people who have left the 2x2s in a way that I have seldom seen. I find his comments to be healing. I am grateful for him. I’m truly glad he has helped you. Help is help from whatever source you get it from. But for me, as someone in the Truth, fixit may have built a bridge, but for me, it’s full of booby traps, trying to twist your words, trying to take things out of context, trying to catch you in your words. (I don’t know if fixit is in or out of the truth, it doesn’t matter) His bridge is nothing I want to be a part of. But I can only speak from my own experience with the person.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 23, 2023 11:35:27 GMT -5
I’m truly glad he has helped you. Help is help from whatever source you get it from. But for me, as someone in the Truth, fixit may have built a bridge, but for me, it’s full of booby traps, trying to twist your words, trying to take things out of context, trying to catch you in your words. (I don’t know if fixit is in or out of the truth, it doesn’t matter) His bridge is nothing I want to be a part of. But I can only speak from my own experience with the person. So you have met him and broke bread or enjoyed a meeting together . You simply have no idea what he is doing , and it will stay that way . U R not worthy of knowing ! DBX2 , DBX3 , WAB ! He is not acting like a sanctimonious person . He is taking this with a pure heart , have a great day . Go ahead and block me and complain to admin . Good luck with that !
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 12:19:46 GMT -5
So you have met him and broke bread or enjoyed a meeting together . You simply have no idea what he is doing , and it will stay that way . U R not worthy of knowing ! DBX2 , DBX3 , WAB ! He is not acting like a sanctimonious person . He is taking this with a pure heart , have a great day . Go ahead and block me and complain to admin . Good luck with that ! 1chinesewhisper: I hope you’re okay, I worry about you. You often seem to blow a gasket and fly off the handle often. I wonder if this forum is not the healthiest for you with all of your trauma, or maybe too much is consumed? a lot of things on here seems to trigger you in an unhealthy way. Please, I am in no way accusing you of anything, I’m concerned for your mental and physical and emotional health. Just a friendly observation. If others, who know you better, disagree, I will submit to that, and not discuss it anymore.
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Post by matisse on May 23, 2023 12:27:01 GMT -5
This sounds like a form of shunning. Is this how you respond to fellow meeting goers who offend you? Have you ever considered there might another reason? Both of your assumptions are not close to the reason why I won’t be responding to that poster, or some other posters on here. Here’s a hint, one of the reasons you just did… you are helping me make my point. But I’ll let you try to see the other side before I respond, If you’re capable of that. I asked you for clarification. You can provide it or not.
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Post by snow on May 23, 2023 12:40:13 GMT -5
I have often wondered how it was for people that understand science and yet have to deal with inconsistencies exactly like the one posed by Curly. I can understand that your head has to hurt trying to deal with the cognitive dissonance stuff like that ultimately creates for anyone trying to believe based on faith something that absolutely contradicts what we now know about science. I guess that's a pretty large part of why I'm an atheist. I don't do 'believe on faith' well. If the bible didn't line up with the facts science has given us I went with the facts because I couldn't just stop thinking about it when it made my head hurt. I’m interested how others Christian’s think, but for me, there’s a lot of inconsistencies in science as well. Science is some thing that I would never want to put my trust in, even if I didn’t believe in God . For crying out loud, we don’t even know if we should eat egg yolks or not. Lol It used to be never, now we’re not sure that it affects our cholesterol levels like we thought, as it’s mostly genetics. But we were so sure a few years ago. Over the past millions of years, the earth has cooled and warmed up at different times. Yet our little gasoline cars are going to change everything? I know the science community says yes, but what the heck do we know? Oh, the arrogance of us tiny little humans trying to be so matter-of-fact on things, because we can extrapolate some data, is laughable. I know Albert Einstein wasn’t religious, but my thoughts on the matter line up with his quote: “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” I believe God created the universe and created science. My head hurts on some things, but to me, most things make a ton of sense when you believe there’s a creator and a creation. For instance, what is the purpose of humans, are we really supposed to just be here for 80 years and then turn back to dust? How lame is that? If so, why are we so different than the animals? Why can we fly planes and land on the moon? Why do we have intelligence? when you boil it down as what really separates us from the animals, it’s intelligence, not just instinct? What’s the purpose… There’s gotta be more? I was joking with someone the other day saying, “boy, it sure takes a lot of faith for scientists to believe there was a big bang, and we’re perfectly in sync spiraling through space with such a fragile planet that might blow up with a 2°C increase”. A lot of things have been “proved”, but we are so limited. how much do we truly know. Science can be its own form of religion, really. Maybe my thoughts aren't really as clear as they were in my head. I’m very aware that you can disprove and disagree with everything I’m saying, and you don’t need faith or God or creation in your science world. This is just my personal stance. To me, there’s not too many things that I have a hard time with, for instance, all of my microbiology and organic chemistry and physics classes, etc. Don’t contradict my faith. I don’t even disagree with the big bang theory, but my thought is, if God wanted a bang, so be it. I just believe He’s created all of it. And I don’t know how, and that’s OK. Humans are so limited, and that’s OK too. Thank you for your answer. It sounds like you really don't trust science to be right so I can understand how it's easier to come to terms with the various contradictions. I would imagine it's important to be in that mindset or it would be too hard. I trust science because of the changes. When science proves what they formerly believed to be not true, they can change what they once believed to accept the newest understanding. That may also change as we learn more and more. For me that's important. Religious doctrine does not allow for discovery. I don't trust that since we know the bible has been proven wrong in places. That's how I see things. We do know the big bang happened because of the cosmic microwave radiation that we can detect and shows us a picture of a very young universe. wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_tests_cmb.html#:~:text=Tests%20of%20Big%20Bang%3A%20The,microwave%20background%22%2C%20or%20CMB.
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Post by getreal on May 23, 2023 12:41:12 GMT -5
This goes round and round all right. I think justbekind a more appropriate moniker would be I mightbekind but only if you never disagree with me. I guess I could admire your fighting spirit. You are You are certainly tenacious. Your beliefs and opinions are clear as they can be.
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Post by snow on May 23, 2023 12:46:59 GMT -5
The other thing I think is that people have tried for many years to bring about change within the church in regard to CSA, alwaysbekindIn Australia friends and exs have been trying to talk to Workers and Overseers for years about this. Have you seen the 60 Minutes report that was done over here in 2019 ? Also Headworkers have been covering up abuse from 1970s, they knew about it but instead of doing something the workers involved were just moved to another area. That is why people on here get angry and can come across as bitter. Proof that they covered for John Vanderberg for decades has come to light. That's what makes so many people angry. The fact that they knew, then they moved them without warning the friends and were accomplices to new victims of CSA. wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/18/john-vandenberg-clarification/Back in January of 2023, Sheri Autrey was working on her case and was informed there had been child sex assault allegations against John. The allegations involved sex assault against a 14 year-old girl in Mexico in the early 2000’s. This information was given by a very credible source who was close to the situation at the time. Since January 2023, it has been brought to our attention that at least ten workers knew of this particular crime and participated in the cover up. Dale Shultz was instrumental in preventing the reporting of John Vandenberg’s crimes to law enforcement.
Sheri also learned that many years ago, one of the friends saw pictures of John with young children. This caused enough alarm that the friend personally mailed a letter to John to address her concerns after seeing the body language displayed just in pictures. We too have seen pictures of John with many children when he was in the Philippines this year for Convention. In light of the allegations against him, these photos are equally troubling.
We were recently informed that some of the friends reported John to CPS and Rob Newman is aware of that reporting as he stated in his letter.
For 17 years, multiple workers have known that John Vandenberg committed sex crimes against a child. They did not report it. They did not notify you. Therefore, countless children were offered as living sacrifices.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 13:05:31 GMT -5
Have you ever considered there might another reason? Both of your assumptions are not close to the reason why I won’t be responding to that poster, or some other posters on here. Here’s a hint, one of the reasons you just did… you are helping me make my point. But I’ll let you try to see the other side before I respond, If you’re capable of that. I asked you for clarification. You can provide it or not. The reason is, I only have limited time, energy, and patience. I am not going to engage with some people, when it seems all that will be accomplished is the equivalent of chasing my tail, and beating my head against the door. And if the same poster seems to be disrespectful, twist\manipulate/lie about what I say, cannot understand how to have a mature conversation and use context, and/or assume and make accusations rather than asking, I don’t want to use my time and energy talking to them. It’s not profitable to me, or the people reading through the thread. And I’ve seen from a lot of the other threads where some members on here seem have unlimited stamina, so it will never stop. I’m not a shunning them because I disagree with what they have to say. I’m not shunning them all, I am ignoring them, though, because I feel there a waste of time to engage in conversation With. I literally started this thread, which invites the opposition to come at me. So please give me a little bit of credit for that, as it’s not easy for anyone (or at least me) to feel ganged up on, but I’m trying my best to stand tall in the pocket, to use a football term. There has been some really good and fruitful conversations and debates so far, and I welcome them, even if we disagree.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 13:07:04 GMT -5
Proof that they covered for John Vanderberg for decades has come to light. That's what makes so many people angry. The fact that they knew, then they moved them without warning the friends and were accomplices to new victims of CSA. wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/18/john-vandenberg-clarification/Back in January of 2023, Sheri Autrey was working on her case and was informed there had been child sex assault allegations against John. The allegations involved sex assault against a 14 year-old girl in Mexico in the early 2000’s. This information was given by a very credible source who was close to the situation at the time. Since January 2023, it has been brought to our attention that at least ten workers knew of this particular crime and participated in the cover up. Dale Shultz was instrumental in preventing the reporting of John Vandenberg’s crimes to law enforcement.
Sheri also learned that many years ago, one of the friends saw pictures of John with young children. This caused enough alarm that the friend personally mailed a letter to John to address her concerns after seeing the body language displayed just in pictures. We too have seen pictures of John with many children when he was in the Philippines this year for Convention. In light of the allegations against him, these photos are equally troubling.
We were recently informed that some of the friends reported John to CPS and Rob Newman is aware of that reporting as he stated in his letter.
For 17 years, multiple workers have known that John Vandenberg committed sex crimes against a child. They did not report it. They did not notify you. Therefore, countless children were offered as living sacrifices.I guess I don’t see your point. I am angry about that as well…
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Post by snow on May 23, 2023 13:13:10 GMT -5
More food for thought: There is at least one other worst-case possibility....that people following Jesus have inadvertently chosen to worship the wrong jealous, judgemental, and vengeful god. you do make an interesting point. I guess the thought that comes to mind on that is that none of us has experienced the other side of death, so we just have to examine our own heart, and be honest with ourselves, and be true to what has been revealed to us, whatever way that might be. I would have to agree with you there. My journey has taken me to not believe in any gods at all. I do believe that humans have had a need since we became sentient to want a protector, meaning to life, wanting to exist past death etc. and all the world's cultures have created gods or philosophies to do just that. I understand why. It brings comfort and something to look forward to. But for me it's a false comfort and hope. We all process life differently and like you say, we need to be true to where our journey has taken us.
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Post by snow on May 23, 2023 13:19:19 GMT -5
Proof that they covered for John Vanderberg for decades has come to light. That's what makes so many people angry. The fact that they knew, then they moved them without warning the friends and were accomplices to new victims of CSA. wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/18/john-vandenberg-clarification/Back in January of 2023, Sheri Autrey was working on her case and was informed there had been child sex assault allegations against John. The allegations involved sex assault against a 14 year-old girl in Mexico in the early 2000’s. This information was given by a very credible source who was close to the situation at the time. Since January 2023, it has been brought to our attention that at least ten workers knew of this particular crime and participated in the cover up. Dale Shultz was instrumental in preventing the reporting of John Vandenberg’s crimes to law enforcement.
Sheri also learned that many years ago, one of the friends saw pictures of John with young children. This caused enough alarm that the friend personally mailed a letter to John to address her concerns after seeing the body language displayed just in pictures. We too have seen pictures of John with many children when he was in the Philippines this year for Convention. In light of the allegations against him, these photos are equally troubling.
We were recently informed that some of the friends reported John to CPS and Rob Newman is aware of that reporting as he stated in his letter.
For 17 years, multiple workers have known that John Vandenberg committed sex crimes against a child. They did not report it. They did not notify you. Therefore, countless children were offered as living sacrifices.I guess I don’t see your point. I am angry about that as well… I was responding to Roselyn regarding why people were angry. It's not just that CSA has happened often in the group, but that the workers were aware of it for decades and became accomplices instead of turning them over to authorities. That was my point to her. I imagine that you are angry for the same reason?
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 13:21:13 GMT -5
you do make an interesting point. I guess the thought that comes to mind on that is that none of us has experienced the other side of death, so we just have to examine our own heart, and be honest with ourselves, and be true to what has been revealed to us, whatever way that might be. I would have to agree with you there. My journey has taken me to not believe in any gods at all. I do believe that humans have had a need since we became sentient to want a protector, meaning to life, wanting to exist past death etc. and all the world's cultures have created gods or philosophies to do just that. I understand why. It brings comfort and something to look forward to. But for me it's a false comfort and hope. We all process life differently and like you say, we need to be true to where our journey has taken us. I appreciate your point of view, and I can see how you have arrived at that conclusion. You seem to be a deep thinker, so I’d love your thoughts on this: What do you think humans purpose in life is for? Our existence? Is this it? Do we just live 80 years struggling through life and going through ups and downs and terrible times and just survive just to survive our species? None of it makes sense to me, if so. why are we so different from the animals, who only have instinct built into them. Why are we so so different? Why are we able to build and live in a submarine underwater for months and months? I understand intelligence is what separates us from the animals, but my question is why?
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