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Post by Pragmatic on May 22, 2023 3:56:20 GMT -5
We remember her and the family growing up here. Brough is the spelling. Never thought she’d be a worker. Her and her husband were in our meeting a year or so ago.
Yes, we are Kiwis, and talk just a little bit differently. We say six, not seex, fish not feesh etc
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Post by fixit on May 22, 2023 4:05:58 GMT -5
Here's a question or two for you alwaysbekind. It says in Genesis that the earth was without form and void. And that was the first day. On the fourth day the sun and the moon and the stars were made. What did the earth orbit and what held it in its orbit prior to the sun being there? It takes 365 days for the earth to orbit the sun which is where we get our year from. The earth spins on its axis and one complete spin gives us our day. 365 of those spins and we have a year. How can there be days one, two and three prior to the sun being there? day noun: a particular period of the past; an era. "in Shakespeare's day"
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 22, 2023 8:46:38 GMT -5
Look, i’m not going to go round and round and round with some of you, I don’t think that’s productive and a waste of my time, and your time. And Time is our most precious commodity in life.
to be honest, I think some of you think I’m delusional, and I have my head in the sand, and I am gladly naïve to what’s going on. I can only speak about my experience is my whole life, (as true with all of us) and the five states I have lived, and in all of my dealings and hearings of the Truth/workers/friends. And you can’t change that
To be honest, I think some of you are delusional, and have no grasp on the whole picture and have build up stories and conspiracies (some obviously arnt conspiracies) in your mind that have come from a negative place inside of you. I think some of you are out of touch. But your perception is your reality. And I can’t change that.
But to be honest, I think we have a lot in common. I think we want a better, more refined version of the truth. I think what that looks like, and how to get there’s, is where we differ. I hope we are all examining ourselves at the same time, and have this same energy in refining and bettering ourselves too. Because at the end of the day, that’s what this is all about, bettering ourselves, and making us more like Jesus. Trying to make it to heaven, and we have to help each other get there. And if you don’t believe in heaven and hell, I sure hope you’re right, for your sake…because a lost eternity is a long and torturous time to be wrong. From a practical standpoint: If someone who follows Jesus is wrong about eternity, the worst case scenario is they live a clean life and are good humans and citizens. The worst case scenario for an unbeliever is an eternity of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Just some food for thought.
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Post by deepdeep on May 22, 2023 11:27:56 GMT -5
....And if you don’t believe in heaven and hell, I sure hope you’re right, for your sake…because a lost eternity is a long and torturous time to be wrong. From a practical standpoint: If someone who follows Jesus is wrong about eternity, the worst case scenario is they live a clean life and are good humans and citizens. The worst case scenario for an unbeliever is an eternity of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Just some food for thought. I think the way you put this is a common way that believers think about athiesm and agnosticism. The two options presented, following Jesus or being an unbeliever, is a a sidestep that does not include the people who are unexamined-ly participating in a nominally faith based system that may or may not be following Jesus in whole or in part. This group of people suffer the most. They are the ones who bear the burden of not being truly supported by an earnest, serious spiritual leadership...they are the ones who will unwittingly participate in cover-ups, perpetuate religious trauma, be traumatized, and still fall short of salvation (depending upon your conception of salvation). The athiest at least gets their natural life to make the most of, unburdened by the shame and guilt so associated with "western" Christianity. The misled adherent will suffer in this life and the next.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 22, 2023 11:39:04 GMT -5
TIME IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN MY LIFE
protecting children and men and women from this nightmare is . Further to that my GREAT GRANDKIDS will be protected by me . Do understand the evilness of this . No Bible or worker is gonna save your a$$ ! It’s dog eat dog 🐩 🐶 by the overseers . Some care nothing about what happens just as long as they are covered . If you think this rough , sorry , but put your seatbelt on securely . I am not a bitter ex , as I said I have children , grandchildren and great grandchildren . I will not allow this anymore . There are some very very good workers and friends . It took us 6 years to get this going . May your creator be with you !
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 22, 2023 11:58:51 GMT -5
....And if you don’t believe in heaven and hell, I sure hope you’re right, for your sake…because a lost eternity is a long and torturous time to be wrong. From a practical standpoint: If someone who follows Jesus is wrong about eternity, the worst case scenario is they live a clean life and are good humans and citizens. The worst case scenario for an unbeliever is an eternity of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Just some food for thought. I think the way you put this is a common way that believers think about athiesm and agnosticism. The two options presented, following Jesus or being an unbeliever, is a a sidestep that does not include the people who are unexamined-ly participating in a nominally faith based system that may or may not be following Jesus in whole or in part. This group of people suffer the most. They are the ones who bear the burden of not being truly supported by an earnest, serious spiritual leadership...they are the ones who will unwittingly participate in cover-ups, perpetuate religious trauma, be traumatized, and still fall short of salvation (depending upon your conception of salvation). The athiest at least gets their natural life to make the most of, unburdened by the shame and guilt so associated with "western" Christianity. The misled adherent will suffer in this life and the next. It is very common amongst believers, because that is exactly what Jesus said. There will be a dividing of sheep and goats. The good fish in the bad fish. God will turn away those on the judgment day and say I never knew you. not everything needs to be complicated. I would venture to say a lot things are very simple and should be kept that way.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 22, 2023 14:43:53 GMT -5
TIME IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN MY LIFE protecting children and men and women from this nightmare is . Further to that my GREAT GRANDKIDS will be protected by me . Do understand the evilness of this . No Bible or worker is gonna save your a$$ ! It’s dog eat dog 🐩 🐶 by the overseers . Some care nothing about what happens just as long as they are covered . If you think this rough , sorry , but put your seatbelt on securely . I am not a bitter ex , as I said I have children , grandchildren and great grandchildren . I will not allow this anymore . There are some very very good workers and friends . It took us 6 years to get this going . May your creator be with you ! 1Chinese whispers: One reason I don’t ever respond to you as you take things I say completely out of context, twist them, and misquoting me. I said time is our precious commodity. Children are not commodities. Of course children are more important than time. You are not a hero in yelling this in caps. Don’t be surprised if I don’t respond to you, as it seems to be unproductive and a waste of my time..you know….humans most precious commodity? I hope this does not set you off, as that is not my intention, but that is my reason. Good day to you. Actually this is the first time I have approached you or weighed in on your remarks .
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 22, 2023 15:27:13 GMT -5
Look, i’m not going to go round and round and round with some of you, I don’t think that’s productive and a waste of my time, and your time. And Time is our most precious commodity in life. to be honest, I think some of you think I’m delusional, and I have my head in the sand, and I am gladly naïve to what’s going on. I can only speak about my experience is my whole life, (as true with all of us) and the five states I have lived, and in all of my dealings and hearings of the Truth/workers/friends. And you can’t change that To be honest, I think some of you are delusional, and have no grasp on the whole picture and have build up stories and conspiracies (some obviously arnt conspiracies) in your mind that have come from a negative place inside of you. I think some of you are out of touch. But your perception is your reality. And I can’t change that. But to be honest, I think we have a lot in common. I think we want a better, more refined version of the truth. I think what that looks like, and how to get there’s, is where we differ. I hope we are all examining ourselves at the same time, and have this same energy in refining and bettering ourselves too. Because at the end of the day, that’s what this is all about, bettering ourselves, and making us more like Jesus. Trying to make it to heaven, and we have to help each other get there. And if you don’t believe in heaven and hell, I sure hope you’re right, for your sake…because a lost eternity is a long and torturous time to be wrong. From a practical standpoint: If someone who follows Jesus is wrong about eternity, the worst case scenario is they live a clean life and are good humans and citizens. The worst case scenario for an unbeliever is an eternity of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Just some food for thought. If you want a built up story just refer to your bible.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 22, 2023 15:38:48 GMT -5
alwaysbekind was asked: Can you shortly tell me what you believe a individual should do to be saved? alwaysbekind responded "Yes, the bible is your guide…everything is in there. its a great How-To " I would humbly submit that any person or preacher in any church/denomination/group could give this answer. It is a complete non-answer. What exactly do you - alwaysbekind - do, that saves you? If a complete non-believer asked you this question, would you really give this response? I was asked to “shortly” explain it, which is why I answered the way I did. Can I briefly say that I’m saved by the blood of Jesus? How can I do that and leave out the fact that Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” So I’d have to add that I have to follow Jesus, and what does that really mean for myself? But, how can I leave it at that when the most popular verse in in the Bible in John 3:16 says,” for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. For whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life” so I can’t leave out the fact that I need to believe. And what does that mean believe? Does that mean… Oh yeah, sure, I believe he died for me. Or is that like Peter, in John 6:67 - Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to BELIEVE and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” nkjv Do I dare leave out baptism? Mark 16:16 NKJV - He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned”. Boy, I gotta do that too. Can’t leave that out. What about things in my life, are there things I need to clean the house on and change?? Galatians NKJV - 19: Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Do I know what these mean? Is it OK to have any of these in my life? I don’t think so. I’m sure God doesn’t think so. inheriting the kingdom of God seems to apply to those that are saved. I could find at least one of those that I struggle with right now, and I need to get the victory on, and God wants to help with that. No, we’re not perfect. Yes, we’re trying to be perfected. The Bible tells us we’re all sinners, and the wages of sin is death. James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. So, now what? we’re all sinners and that leads to a spiritual death. Well, the Bible talks about repentance. And how the blood of Jesus can blot out our sins so that we can be blameless in front of God. What about forgiving a brother? An enemy? A worker with a CSA crime? The Bible is very clear. We have to forgive if we want to be forgiven. That doesn’t mean he or she does not need reported to authorities. There are countless other things in the Bible. And there are things as you read that the spirit presses gently on your heart and your conscience. I could go on and on, I haven’t even touched on the parables. Even things in the New Testament, that god hates, etc. etc. etc. But all of this had knowledge, and all of these things we’ve known from childhood will not save us, unless we act on them and try to live according to them in our own lives. Jesus said if you will be saved. Perish. A lot of love ones we have parish. All I have to figure out is how do I be counted amongst a few, and how do I encourage others to do the same? I hope you can appreciate that All of this was very very hard for me to sum up “shortly” and it was a lot better to direct them to the Bible. There’s so much more in the Bible we are responsible for that we have to get glean for ourselves, i’d have to go on and on to describe it properly
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Post by mrdobalina on May 22, 2023 15:51:14 GMT -5
alwaysbekind was asked: Can you shortly tell me what you believe a individual should do to be saved? alwaysbekind responded "Yes, the bible is your guide…everything is in there. its a great How-To " I would humbly submit that any person or preacher in any church/denomination/group could give this answer. It is a complete non-answer. What exactly do you - alwaysbekind - do, that saves you? If a complete non-believer asked you this question, would you really give this response? I was asked to “shortly” explain it, which is why I answered the way I did. Can I briefly say that I’m saved by the blood of Jesus? How can I do that and leave out the fact that Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” So I’d have to add that I have to follow Jesus, and what does that really mean for myself? But, how can I leave it at that when the most popular verse in in the Bible in John 3:16 says,” for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. For whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life” so I can’t leave out the fact that I need to believe. And what does that mean believe? Does that mean… Oh yeah, sure, I believe he died for me. Or is that like Peter, in John 6:67 - Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to BELIEVE and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” nkjv Do I dare leave out baptism? Mark 16:16 NKJV - He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned”. Boy, I gotta do that too. Can’t leave that out. What about things in my life, are there things I need to clean the house on and change?? Galatians NKJV - 19: Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Do I know what these mean? Is it is it OK to have any of these in my life I don’t think so, inheriting the kingdom of God seems to apply to those that are saved. I could find at least one of those that I struggle with right now, and I need to get the victory on, and God wants to help with that. No, we’re not perfect. Yes, we’re trying to be perfected. The Bible tells us we’re all sinners, and the wages of sin is death. James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. So now work, we’re all centers, and that leads to a spiritual death. Well, the Bible talks about repentance. And how the blood of Jesus can blot out our sins so that we can be blameless in front of God. There are countless other things in the Bible. And there are things as you read that the spirit presses gently on your heart and your conscience. I could go on and on, I haven’t even touched on the parables. Even things in the New Testament, that god hates, etc. etc. etc. But all of this had knowledge, and all of these things we’ve known from childhood will not save us, unless we act on them and try to live according to them in our own lives. Jesus said if you will be saved. Perish. A lot of love ones we have parish. All I have to figure out is how do I be counted amongst a few, and how do I encourage others to do the same? I hope you can appreciate that All of this was very very hard for me to sum up “shortly” and it was a lot better to direct them to the Bible. There’s so much more in the Bible we are responsible for that we have to get glean for ourselves, i’d have to go on and on to describe it properly Be sure not to eat shellfish or wear mixed fabrics. That's in your "how to" manual, as well as swapping 200 Pharisee foreskins for a wife. Paragraph four sums up what's wrong with your death cult quite nicely.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 22, 2023 16:10:22 GMT -5
Actually this is the first time I have approached you or weighed in on your remarks . not technically true, you’ve approach me on page 4 of this thread and the ”why bitter exes on here” thread… but no matter… what is true is I got your name mixed up with another name I had in mind. And I was wrong. so, I apologize for confusing you with someone else and my about you that I don’t feel is true. If you would like me to delete this comment and my first one, since it puts you in a bad light, I would be happy to. Just let me know. Again, I’m sorry for my mistake. Do whatever floats your boat . But clean up the and purify the WAY/TRUTH .
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 22, 2023 18:25:11 GMT -5
alwaysbekind was asked: Can you shortly tell me what you believe a individual should do to be saved? alwaysbekind responded "Yes, the bible is your guide…everything is in there. its a great How-To " I would humbly submit that any person or preacher in any church/denomination/group could give this answer. It is a complete non-answer. What exactly do you - alwaysbekind - do, that saves you? If a complete non-believer asked you this question, would you really give this response? I was asked to “shortly” explain it, which is why I answered the way I did. Can I briefly say that I’m saved by the blood of Jesus? How can I do that and leave out the fact that Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” So I’d have to add that I have to follow Jesus, and what does that really mean for myself? But, how can I leave it at that when the most popular verse in in the Bible in John 3:16 says,” for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. For whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life” so I can’t leave out the fact that I need to believe. And what does that mean believe? Does that mean… Oh yeah, sure, I believe he died for me. Or is that like Peter, in John 6:67 - Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to BELIEVE and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” nkjv Do I dare leave out baptism? Mark 16:16 NKJV - He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned”. Boy, I gotta do that too. Can’t leave that out. What about things in my life, are there things I need to clean the house on and change?? Galatians NKJV - 19: Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Do I know what these mean? Is it OK to have any of these in my life? I don’t think so. I’m sure God doesn’t think so. inheriting the kingdom of God seems to apply to those that are saved. I could find at least one of those that I struggle with right now, and I need to get the victory on, and God wants to help with that. No, we’re not perfect. Yes, we’re trying to be perfected. The Bible tells us we’re all sinners, and the wages of sin is death. James 1:15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. So, now what? we’re all sinners and that leads to a spiritual death. Well, the Bible talks about repentance. And how the blood of Jesus can blot out our sins so that we can be blameless in front of God. What about forgiving a brother? An enemy? A worker with a CSA crime? The Bible is very clear. We have to forgive if we want to be forgiven. That doesn’t mean he or she does not need reported to authorities. There are countless other things in the Bible. And there are things as you read that the spirit presses gently on your heart and your conscience. I could go on and on, I haven’t even touched on the parables. Even things in the New Testament, that god hates, etc. etc. etc. But all of this had knowledge, and all of these things we’ve known from childhood will not save us, unless we act on them and try to live according to them in our own lives. Jesus said if you will be saved. Perish. A lot of love ones we have parish. All I have to figure out is how do I be counted amongst a few, and how do I encourage others to do the same? I hope you can appreciate that All of this was very very hard for me to sum up “shortly” and it was a lot better to direct them to the Bible. There’s so much more in the Bible we are responsible for that we have to get glean for ourselves, i’d have to go on and on to describe it properly Thanks for your answer and the time you have taken to formulate it. I agree with much of what you have said. Yes, we are first and foremost saved by the blood of Christ. He both takes our penalty and provides our righteousness. Romans 3:21. Also 2 Cor 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
What do we have to DO to be saved? Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:29 Will baptism save you? No. Should you be baptised? Yes. However it is only a public symbol of our belief in Christ, and HIS cleansing power, it has no actual power in itself, and does not save us in ANY way. The thief on the cross was not baptised. You said all of these things we’ve known from childhood will not save us, unless we act on them and try to live according to them in our own lives.... All I have to figure out is how do I be counted amongst a fewEven if you act on them all, to the best of your own ability, you will still fall short. Doing any or all of these commandments will not make you worthy. No, you will never gain the full victory of your own sins in this life. But if you truly believe, then y ou were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:11. If you trust fully in Christ, you ARE saved. You no longer have to figure out how to be counted amongst a few. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1John 5:11-13. If you are still figuring out how to be counted, you do not have the Son. How do we now live? What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? (Romans 6:1) By no means! I was going to quote more of Romans 6 here, but it really needs the whole chapter. But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. (Rom 6:17-18) And this is where the James 2 passage comes in. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
True faith will result in works - obedience to God. A tree does not produce green leaves so it will stay alive. Its green leaves prove it already has life. A tree which is alive HAS to bring forth green leaves because it is connected to its source of life. Which brings us to the increasing number of workers and overseers and elders being stood down at present. They have "works" (living according their form of ministry) - but where is their Spirit-led life? They have sought to obey a method of ministry, but their message of self-sacrfice has not brought forth fruit in keeping with repentance. (Matt 3:8). Unless they fully trust in Jesus alone, and truly believe, there will be no transformative power in their life. They will keep battling on in their own works and strength, and keep failing. Perhaps they need to start preaching a message of faith in Christ alone, instead of faith in a manmade ministry. But in closing, I do appreciate that you didn't try to claim that the two-by-two ministry and all its manmade rules somehow contributes to salvation.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 22, 2023 19:51:47 GMT -5
I agree with everything you said with 2 tiny exception. Maybe I won’t even bring them up, since we Agree so much. Thank you for your thoughts, I’m sure you and I could both agree on dozens more verses that go along with how we ought to live! Religion is a funny thing. From the outside, it’s very structured, and very formal. But the part you don’t see, the part that’s inside of us, is very very very personal, and what it’s all about at the end of the day, as we will be judged individually, and stand before Him alone.
I have a question for you on that, since you seem to know your Bible well. I was wondering the other day: I know it says when the Lord returns, the graves will open first, and the faithful in Him will meet Jesus in the air. But it also talks about a judgment day, right? (And maybe none of us knows, because there’s so much we won’t know) but if the graves open up, and some meet him and some don’t, the judgment day, would have to be before then, right? Which comes first? I haven’t had a chance to study that out yet. And I’m not the biggest scholar myself, anyways. Since we were talking about it, I just thought I’d ask.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 22, 2023 20:27:21 GMT -5
Thanks alwaysbekind Judgement day and graves opening! I have developed some understanding of this over time. When we die, we go straight to be with Christ, or otherwise. "Today you will be with me in Paradise” in Luke 23 to the thief on the cross. On the Mount of Transfiguration, both Moses and Elijah appear and stand with Jesus. (Matt 17:1-9). They are living in an afterlife already, though their bones remain in the grave. But the Judgement Day (Revelation 20) is when the final judgement will be occur. Although it will be more like the sentencing than the verdict. The verdict has already been reached when we die. The official sentencing happens at the day of judgement. Rev20: Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.All of the dead will appear before the Judgement throne. We will all be judged "according to what [we] had done as recorded in the books". We will all be found guilty, of course. But then "another book was opened, which is the book of life". If our name is in the book of life, it supercedes what condemns us in all books of what we have done. It is also called the "Lamb's book of life" (Rev 21:27); ie those who are covered by the blood of the lamb. Of which the passover in Egypt was a picture of the redemption to come. So we are not ultimately judged by what we have done (works), but whether or not we our name appears in the Book of Life (truth faith). So what is with all the bodies coming out of the graves and sea? Our spirit goes to God when we die, but we are also promised to eventually be reunited with our bodies - which are changed. We really need to read the whole of 1 Corinthians 15 for this, but in essence: Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”Christ was raised from the dead. His body was taken up into heaven after the resurrection. His body is no longer on this earth. We, too, look forward to a literal resurrection from the dead at the time of the Judgement Day, when the perishable will be raised and become imperishable.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 22, 2023 20:41:17 GMT -5
Thanks alwaysbekind Judgement day and graves opening! I have developed some understanding of this over time. When we die, we go straight to be with Christ, or otherwise. "Today you will be with me in Paradise” in Luke 23 to the thief on the cross. On the Mount of Transfiguration, both Moses and Elijah appear and stand with Jesus. (Matt 17:1-9). They are living in an afterlife already, though their bones remain in the grave. But the Judgement Day (Revelation 20) is when the final judgement will be occur. Although it will be more like the sentencing than the verdict. The verdict has already been reached when we die. The official sentencing happens at the day of judgement. Rev20: Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.All of the dead will appear before the Judgement throne. We will all be judged "according to what [we] had done as recorded in the books". We will all be found guilty, of course. But then "another book was opened, which is the book of life". If our name is in the book of life, it supercedes what condemns us in all books of what we have done. It is also called the "Lamb's book of life" (Rev 21:27); ie those who are covered by the blood of the lamb. Of which the passover in Egypt was a picture of the redemption to come. So we are not ultimately judged by what we have done (works), but whether or not we our name appears in the Book of Life (truth faith). So what is with all the bodies coming out of the graves and sea? Our spirit goes to God when we die, but we are also promised to eventually be reunited with our bodies - which are changed. We really need to read the whole of 1 Corinthians 15 for this, but in essence: Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”Christ was raised from the dead. His body was taken up into heaven after the resurrection. His body is no longer on this earth. We, too, look forward to a literal resurrection from the dead at the time of the Judgement Day, when the perishable will be raised and become imperishable. Hmm, very interesting. Fascinating subject. Thank you very much for taking the time to explain that! You have obviously chewed on that a lot over the years lol
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 22, 2023 20:54:55 GMT -5
Hmm, very interesting. Fascinating subject. Thank you very much for taking the time to explain that! You have obviously chewed on that a lot over the years lol I can't take much credit. I've belonged to a church with exceptionally good biblical teaching and exegesis.
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Post by snow on May 22, 2023 22:39:20 GMT -5
alwaysbekind , would you still have the same opinions if a Worker sexual abused one of your children? I assume you are in the US ? Great question. I understand that I don't know for sure, because its a hypothetical question. I do believe i still would have an open door to the workers. THAT particular worker would not be welcomed of course. That person would be sitting in jail. I don't dare lump together a whole group of people for a fews actions! thats not justice, thats not right. if your father was a child molester…i am very very sure you would not want to be thought of one too, and you would want to be judged on your own actions by people. same as me, and same of the other workers right now. can you imagine what the ones, who would never think of hurting a child, are dealing with right now? i know, because i have a few i communicate with frequently and its a witch hunt. the collateral damage causing trauma to the innocent is real. so yes, i believe i would compartmentalize the bad worker and fully stand beside the others, even if my own child was victimized.i would hope, as the years go by, i could forgive that worker, maybe even go see them in prison and have God work that mercy into my heart. To me, thats what i Believe Jesus would do. correct, i am in the USA What do you think about all the overseers and workers that knew about the csa being committed for decades and not doing anything about it. An example of that is the John Vanderberg abuses of young children. You say that you would let the other workers in your home, but at the moment no one knows who the workers are that have moved abusers around, not warned families so they could have a say whether or not they would allow them in their homes etc. I honestly don't know how it's possible to trust workers at the moment with so many 'shocks' of workers stepping down almost daily. wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/18/john-vandenberg-clarification/
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Post by snow on May 22, 2023 23:00:07 GMT -5
Here's a question or two for you alwaysbekind. It says in Genesis that the earth was without form and void. And that was the first day. On the fourth day the sun and the moon and the stars were made. What did the earth orbit and what held it in its orbit prior to the sun being there? It takes 365 days for the earth to orbit the sun which is where we get our year from. The earth spins on its axis and one complete spin gives us our day. 365 of those spins and we have a year. How can there be days one, two and three prior to the sun being there? Fun question that I do not have the answer to! I like thought experiments like this. I have a science background, so my brain hurts trying to balance science vs my faith (like oil and water). The only thing I’ve come to peace with is that my little human brain cannot even begins to understand a sliver of God, the almighty. God, who created time, the universe, matter, etc. I know you said you don’t believe in God a couple days ago (please correct me if I’m wrong on any assumptions), so creation/faith/God is something that you’ll reject. But if you look at it From a believers outlook, we know the Bible talks about in 2 Peter 3:8 KJV “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” Logically I can connect the dots of one of Gods days is like 1000 of hours. ultimately, though I have no idea as this is all above my head. But my brain always ends up hurting when I think about this. I just have to leave it. What do you think? Other than thinking us Christians are a bunch of quacks Lol I have often wondered how it was for people that understand science and yet have to deal with inconsistencies exactly like the one posed by Curly. I can understand that your head has to hurt trying to deal with the cognitive dissonance stuff like that ultimately creates for anyone trying to believe based on faith something that absolutely contradicts what we now know about science. I guess that's a pretty large part of why I'm an atheist. I don't do 'believe on faith' well. If the bible didn't line up with the facts science has given us I went with the facts because I couldn't just stop thinking about it when it made my head hurt.
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Post by getreal on May 22, 2023 23:19:01 GMT -5
We remember her and the family growing up here. Brough is the spelling. Never thought she’d be a worker. Her and her husband were in our meeting a year or so ago. Yes, we are Kiwis, and talk just a little bit differently. We say six, not seex, fish not feesh etc Oh she’s married! Lovely. Very happy she got settled out of the work. She had a horrible time.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 22, 2023 23:56:11 GMT -5
Fun question that I do not have the answer to! I like thought experiments like this. I have a science background, so my brain hurts trying to balance science vs my faith (like oil and water). The only thing I’ve come to peace with is that my little human brain cannot even begins to understand a sliver of God, the almighty. God, who created time, the universe, matter, etc. I know you said you don’t believe in God a couple days ago (please correct me if I’m wrong on any assumptions), so creation/faith/God is something that you’ll reject. But if you look at it From a believers outlook, we know the Bible talks about in 2 Peter 3:8 KJV “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” Logically I can connect the dots of one of Gods days is like 1000 of hours. ultimately, though I have no idea as this is all above my head. But my brain always ends up hurting when I think about this. I just have to leave it. What do you think? Other than thinking us Christians are a bunch of quacks Lol I have often wondered how it was for people that understand science and yet have to deal with inconsistencies exactly like the one posed by Curly. I can understand that your head has to hurt trying to deal with the cognitive dissonance stuff like that ultimately creates for anyone trying to believe based on faith something that absolutely contradicts what we now know about science. I guess that's a pretty large part of why I'm an atheist. I don't do 'believe on faith' well. If the bible didn't line up with the facts science has given us I went with the facts because I couldn't just stop thinking about it when it made my head hurt. I’m interested how others Christian’s think, but for me, there’s a lot of inconsistencies in science as well. Science is some thing that I would never want to put my trust in, even if I didn’t believe in God . For crying out loud, we don’t even know if we should eat egg yolks or not. Lol It used to be never, now we’re not sure that it affects our cholesterol levels like we thought, as it’s mostly genetics. But we were so sure a few years ago. Over the past millions of years, the earth has cooled and warmed up at different times. Yet our little gasoline cars are going to change everything? I know the science community says yes, but what the heck do we know? Oh, the arrogance of us tiny little humans trying to be so matter-of-fact on things, because we can extrapolate some data, is laughable. I know Albert Einstein wasn’t religious, but my thoughts on the matter line up with his quote: “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” I believe God created the universe and created science. My head hurts on some things, but to me, most things make a ton of sense when you believe there’s a creator and a creation. For instance, what is the purpose of humans, are we really supposed to just be here for 80 years and then turn back to dust? How lame is that? If so, why are we so different than the animals? Why can we fly planes and land on the moon? Why do we have intelligence? when you boil it down as what really separates us from the animals, it’s intelligence, not just instinct? What’s the purpose… There’s gotta be more? I was joking with someone the other day saying, “boy, it sure takes a lot of faith for scientists to believe there was a big bang, and we’re perfectly in sync spiraling through space with such a fragile planet that might blow up with a 2°C increase”. A lot of things have been “proved”, but we are so limited. how much do we truly know. Science can be its own form of religion, really. Maybe my thoughts aren't really as clear as they were in my head. I’m very aware that you can disprove and disagree with everything I’m saying, and you don’t need faith or God or creation in your science world. This is just my personal stance. To me, there’s not too many things that I have a hard time with, for instance, all of my microbiology and organic chemistry and physics classes, etc. Don’t contradict my faith. I don’t even disagree with the big bang theory, but my thought is, if God wanted a bang, so be it. I just believe He’s created all of it. And I don’t know how, and that’s OK. Humans are so limited, and that’s OK too.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 23, 2023 0:13:45 GMT -5
I have often wondered how it was for people that understand science and yet have to deal with inconsistencies exactly like the one posed by Curly. I can understand that your head has to hurt trying to deal with the cognitive dissonance stuff like that ultimately creates for anyone trying to believe based on faith something that absolutely contradicts what we now know about science. I guess that's a pretty large part of why I'm an atheist. I don't do 'believe on faith' well. If the bible didn't line up with the facts science has given us I went with the facts because I couldn't just stop thinking about it when it made my head hurt. I’m interested how others Christian’s think, but for me, there’s a lot of inconsistencies in science as well. Science is some thing that I would never want to put my trust in, even if I didn’t believe in God . For crying out loud, we don’t even know if we should eat egg yolks or not. Lol It used to be never, now we’re not sure that it affects our cholesterol levels like we thought, as it’s mostly genetics. But we were so sure a few years ago. Over the past millions of years, the earth has cooled and warmed up at different times. Yet our little gasoline cars are going to change everything? I know the science community says yes, but what the heck do we know? Oh, the arrogance of us tiny little humans trying to be so matter-of-fact on things, because we can extrapolate some data, is laughable. I know Albert Einstein wasn’t religious, but my thoughts on the matter line up with his quote: “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” I believe God created the universe and created science. My head hurts on some things, but to me, most things make a ton of sense when you believe there’s a creator and a creation. For instance, what is the purpose of humans, are we really supposed to just be here for 80 years and then turn back to dust? How lame is that? If so, why are we so different than the animals? Why can we fly planes and land on the moon? Why do we have intelligence? when you boil it down as what really separates us from the animals, it’s intelligence, not just instinct? What’s the purpose… There’s gotta be more? I was joking with someone the other day saying, “boy, it sure takes a lot of faith for scientists to believe there was a big bang, and we’re perfectly in sync spiraling through space with such a fragile planet that might blow up with a 2°C increase”. A lot of things have been “proved”, but we are so limited. how much do we truly know. Science can be its own form of religion, really. Maybe my thoughts aren't really as clear as they were in my head. I’m very aware that you can disprove and disagree with everything I’m saying, and you don’t need faith or God or creation in your science world. This is just my personal stance. To me, there’s not too many things that I have a hard time with, for instance, all of my microbiology and organic chemistry and physics classes, etc. Don’t contradict my faith. I don’t even disagree with the big bang theory, but my thought is, if God wanted a bang, so be it. I just believe He’s created all of it. And I don’t know how, and that’s OK. Humans are so limited, and that’s OK too. Einstein expressed his skepticism regarding the existence of an anthropomorphic god, such as the God of Abrahamic religions, often describing this view as "naïve"[3] and "childlike".[13] In a 1947 letter he stated that "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously."[14] In a letter to Beatrice Frohlich on 17 December 1952, Einstein stated, "The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve."[15] Prompted by his colleague L. E. J. Brouwer, Einstein read the philosopher Eric Gutkind's book Choose Life,[16] a discussion of the relationship between Jewish revelation and the modern world. On January 3, 1954, Einstein sent the following reply to Gutkind: "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. .... For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."[17][18][19] In 2018 his letter to Gutkind was sold for $2.9 million.[20] On 22 March 1954, Einstein received a letter from Joseph Dispentiere, an Italian immigrant who had worked as an experimental machinist in New Jersey. Dispentiere had declared himself an atheist and was disappointed by a news report which had cast Einstein as conventionally religious. Einstein replied on 24 March 1954: It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.[21]
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 0:37:26 GMT -5
I’m interested how others Christian’s think, but for me, there’s a lot of inconsistencies in science as well. Science is some thing that I would never want to put my trust in, even if I didn’t believe in God . For crying out loud, we don’t even know if we should eat egg yolks or not. Lol It used to be never, now we’re not sure that it affects our cholesterol levels like we thought, as it’s mostly genetics. But we were so sure a few years ago. Over the past millions of years, the earth has cooled and warmed up at different times. Yet our little gasoline cars are going to change everything? I know the science community says yes, but what the heck do we know? Oh, the arrogance of us tiny little humans trying to be so matter-of-fact on things, because we can extrapolate some data, is laughable. I know Albert Einstein wasn’t religious, but my thoughts on the matter line up with his quote: “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” I believe God created the universe and created science. My head hurts on some things, but to me, most things make a ton of sense when you believe there’s a creator and a creation. For instance, what is the purpose of humans, are we really supposed to just be here for 80 years and then turn back to dust? How lame is that? If so, why are we so different than the animals? Why can we fly planes and land on the moon? Why do we have intelligence? when you boil it down as what really separates us from the animals, it’s intelligence, not just instinct? What’s the purpose… There’s gotta be more? I was joking with someone the other day saying, “boy, it sure takes a lot of faith for scientists to believe there was a big bang, and we’re perfectly in sync spiraling through space with such a fragile planet that might blow up with a 2°C increase”. A lot of things have been “proved”, but we are so limited. how much do we truly know. Science can be its own form of religion, really. Maybe my thoughts aren't really as clear as they were in my head. I’m very aware that you can disprove and disagree with everything I’m saying, and you don’t need faith or God or creation in your science world. This is just my personal stance. To me, there’s not too many things that I have a hard time with, for instance, all of my microbiology and organic chemistry and physics classes, etc. Don’t contradict my faith. I don’t even disagree with the big bang theory, but my thought is, if God wanted a bang, so be it. I just believe He’s created all of it. And I don’t know how, and that’s OK. Humans are so limited, and that’s OK too. Einstein expressed his skepticism regarding the existence of an anthropomorphic god, such as the God of Abrahamic religions, often describing this view as "naïve"[3] and "childlike".[13] In a 1947 letter he stated that "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously."[14] In a letter to Beatrice Frohlich on 17 December 1952, Einstein stated, "The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve."[15] Prompted by his colleague L. E. J. Brouwer, Einstein read the philosopher Eric Gutkind's book Choose Life,[16] a discussion of the relationship between Jewish revelation and the modern world. On January 3, 1954, Einstein sent the following reply to Gutkind: "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. .... For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."[17][18][19] In 2018 his letter to Gutkind was sold for $2.9 million.[20] On 22 March 1954, Einstein received a letter from Joseph Dispentiere, an Italian immigrant who had worked as an experimental machinist in New Jersey. Dispentiere had declared himself an atheist and was disappointed by a news report which had cast Einstein as conventionally religious. Einstein replied on 24 March 1954: It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.[21] I’m convinced some posters, such as yourself, on this forum don’t know how to read and know nothing about context. Since you’re so good at copying and pasting, Maybe you could copy and paste what I said specifically about Einstein and that quote. Feel free to read it and understand what it says while you do it.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 23, 2023 1:02:00 GMT -5
I agree trauma can change people, as I have experienced trauma in life (not SA/CSA) and have seen how it’s changed me. Yes I was. third generation. The other thing I think is that people have tried for many years to bring about change within the church in regard to CSA, alwaysbekindIn Australia friends and exs have been trying to talk to Workers and Overseers for years about this. Have you seen the 60 Minutes report that was done over here in 2019 ? Also Headworkers have been covering up abuse from 1970s, they knew about it but instead of doing something the workers involved were just moved to another area. That is why people on here get angry and can come across as bitter.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 23, 2023 1:06:12 GMT -5
The other thing I think is that people have tried for many years to bring about change within the church in regard to CSA, alwaysbekind In Australia friends and exs have been trying to talk to Workers and Overseers for years about this. Have you seen the 60 Minutes report that was done over here in 2019 ? Also Headworkers have been covering up abuse from 1970s, they knew about it but instead of doing something the workers involved were just moved to another area. That is why people on here get angry and can come across as bitter. I know of cases of criminal sexual behaviour in NZ that date back to the 1950's. Willie Hughes, Willie Phynn and Walter Franks conspired to move the criminal out of NZ one step ahead of the police.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 23, 2023 1:10:32 GMT -5
I know of cases of criminal sexual behaviour in NZ that date back to the 1950's. Willie Hughes, Willie Phynn and Walter Franks conspired to move the criminal out of NZ one step ahead of the police. The same in Australia, moved overseas instead of being dealt with.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 23, 2023 1:23:47 GMT -5
I know of cases of criminal sexual behaviour in NZ that date back to the 1950's. Willie Hughes, Willie Phynn and Walter Franks conspired to move the criminal out of NZ one step ahead of the police. The same in Australia, moved overseas instead of being dealt with. We should also not forget that when Irvine, the author of this cult, visited NZ he was suspected of having sexual relationships with one or more sister workers. The following year, 1912?, no sister workers went out to preach just in case of pregnancy.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 23, 2023 2:06:57 GMT -5
The other thing I think is that people have tried for many years to bring about change within the church in regard to CSA, alwaysbekindIn Australia friends and exs have been trying to talk to Workers and Overseers for years about this. Have you seen the 60 Minutes report that was done over here in 2019 ? Also Headworkers have been covering up abuse from 1970s, they knew about it but instead of doing something the workers involved were just moved to another area. That is why people on here get angry and can come across as bitter. This is not news to me…
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Post by fixit on May 23, 2023 2:28:03 GMT -5
The other thing I think is that people have tried for many years to bring about change within the church in regard to CSA, alwaysbekindIn Australia friends and exs have been trying to talk to Workers and Overseers for years about this. Have you seen the 60 Minutes report that was done over here in 2019 ? Also Headworkers have been covering up abuse from 1970s, they knew about it but instead of doing something the workers involved were just moved to another area. That is why people on here get angry and can come across as bitter. This is not news to me… How does it make you feel?
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