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Post by Vinny T. on Apr 23, 2023 17:07:21 GMT -5
I'm going to be real frank here. If these issues are not dealt with appropriately, the fellowship as we know it will likely implode. You will have people saying they can't be part of something that covers up SA or fails to address SA appropriately when they are aware of the problem. You will have elders that won't be elders of a church with these problems of cover ups. You will have workers who won't be part of a ministry that allows these things to go unheeded. They are so aggregiously wrong. Most of the flock didn't know about these things until now. But it's out now. Also, the idea of a celibate ministry needs to be revisited and who all has a 'say' in who gets accepted into the ministry. Do the sister workers, for example have any input for sisters being accepted? Sister workers have been raped at preps. It's happened more than once. Well, duh. You take a bunch of celibate, single men and women and put them on a farm together for 3 weeks with no oversight and what do you expect? It's needs to be revisited. I also believe that this is an existential threat to the future of the fellowship. On pretty much every level, how could it be otherwise? What pisses me off is that I could clearly see that it was an existential threat as a teenager. I expected that all adults (and all people in authority) could clearly see just that. So why wasn't all of this taken seriously 50 years ago? It could be that they were as naive as I was? (That takes quite a bit of naivete.) I could almost buy that explanation for up until the late 1990's, early 2000's. But, beyond that, it is a bit of a stretch. Or, has here been some sort of payoff for people in positions of authority? 👀 👀 👀 Hello there, I have to say with everything that is coming out you may be correct. But the crimes have gone on and been covered up for far too long. It is sad but it is good that it is finally coming out. Information that has come out is pretty damming. I know many members and they are for the most part exceptionally good people. Their only fault would be condoning the CSA and rape but that you can't really blame on them as the level of control the church has on it's members rivals stockholm syndrome on a mass scale. IE where the victims protect the perpetrators.
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Post by fixit on Apr 23, 2023 17:09:43 GMT -5
Actually it's just the vain imaginations of men. MEN IS THE KEY WORD !!!! Be nice, 1chinesewhispers, we're not all bad!
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Post by snow on Apr 23, 2023 17:18:58 GMT -5
What a wordy way of saying, "Be subservient to the workers". I recall a discussion with MG at Masterton once along similar lines, about a trivial matter (putting hot water into the cold water tank so the boys could have warm showers) He said even if the workers are wrong, your are right to do as they say. And then the kicker, "Your salvation is on their shoulders". It subservience that has part-enabled the current situation unfolding before our eyes. Wow! That explains the mess they are in. Yes doesn't it!! Another paragraph in that letter from D. Schultz that I felt should have been bolded was this. "We could wonder why the support remains so solidly behind Willis and Jim, and it would be possible to advance a number of possible reasons. We know that this stand has been taken after hearing a number of concerns expressed from both workers and friends. I would just like to encourage you to accept this support that Willis and Jim have at the present time as a reality and to respect that decision because it comes from a group of men whom God has called and whom God is using in guiding his work in this part of the earth. If our attitude towards them becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well."We are the only ones that God called and who God guides so your disrespect for our decisions is also you disrespecting God. Talk about being full of yourself!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2023 17:21:13 GMT -5
Yeah, me and Shultz wouldn't get along. The Apostles didn't handle things that way. Paul and Peter are the perfect example how to not do it Shultz's way. Paul caught Peter being a wuss and got in his face and told him that's not right. Then we have the John Mark dispute Between Barnabas(accept) and Paul(reject) and them going their separate ways for at least sometime over the matter. I don't remember the thing that set it off but I do remember one of the families that were involved and I am not surprised. Their kids at least are questionable if involved too. Point to the workers for dumping them
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Post by Pragmatic on Apr 23, 2023 17:25:18 GMT -5
Has the truth been made public about Sri Lanka?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2023 17:26:48 GMT -5
I'm going to be real frank here. If these issues are not dealt with appropriately, the fellowship as we know it will likely implode. You will have people saying they can't be part of something that covers up SA or fails to address SA appropriately when they are aware of the problem. You will have elders that won't be elders of a church with these problems of cover ups. You will have workers who won't be part of a ministry that allows these things to go unheeded. They are so aggregiously wrong. Most of the flock didn't know about these things until now. But it's out now. Also, the idea of a celibate ministry needs to be revisited and who all has a 'say' in who gets accepted into the ministry. Do the sister workers, for example have any input for sisters being accepted? Sister workers have been raped at preps. It's happened more than once. Well, duh. You take a bunch of celibate, single men and women and put them on a farm together for 3 weeks with no oversight and what do you expect? It's needs to be revisited. I also believe that this is an existential threat to the future of the fellowship. On pretty much every level, how could it be otherwise? What pisses me off is that I could clearly see that it was an existential threat as a teenager. I expected that all adults (and all people in authority) could clearly see just that. So why wasn't all of this taken seriously 50 years ago? It could be that they were as naive as I was? (That takes quite a bit of naivete.) I could almost buy that explanation for up until the late 1990's, early 2000's. But, beyond that, it is a bit of a stretch. Or, has here been some sort of payoff for people in positions of authority? 👀 👀 👀 Yes, in earlier times the friends tended to be very naive. I remember an elder and caretaker of the convention grounds for a bit coming out after 25+ years of marriage and three kids and his wife had no idea what he was saying even with the other guy standing right there beside him.
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Post by Vinny T. on Apr 23, 2023 17:29:25 GMT -5
Here is something that I have not saw anyone bring up yet. Satan is the Lord of lies and the ultimate deceiver that is known to all. He is also in this for the long haul as his battle for control of our souls has been going on for quite sometime. God loves, heals and protects his people. God does NOT condone rape, CSA or any other evil act yet the 2x2 church does. Rape, CSA and the covering up of them are Satans tools and Satans ways not Gods. The 2x2 Church has covered up countless rapes and cases of CSA. It seems that Satan has fooled many into covering up rape and CSA in the name of God for fear of going to hell. The 2x2 standard practice as it has always been is to shun and silence the victim into not reporting it. It is also standard practice to "protect" the perpetrator not the victim and move the perpetrator to a new area where they are free to assault more innocent children and people. Those actions are NOT about God or being Godly people. Seems that Satan has fooled many into thinking that this church is about God when it also seems that it is more about Satans ways then Gods ways. Isn't it Satan that thought he knew better than God? It is also true that many Elders, workers and Overseers have said that they don't have to follow Gods rule because they know better just like good old Leroy as I wrote earlier. Just a thought.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 23, 2023 17:32:33 GMT -5
Ya know I like you Fixit . Not all men , so yeah I will take that back . I should’ve stated NOT ALL !
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Post by snow on Apr 23, 2023 17:33:31 GMT -5
Here is something that I have not saw anyone bring up yet. Satan is the Lord of lies and the ultimate deceiver that is known to all. He is also in this for the long haul as his battle for control of our souls has been going on for quite sometime. God loves, heals and protects his people. God does NOT condone rape, CSA or any other evil act yet the 2x2 church does. Rape, CSA and the covering up of them are Satans tools and Satans ways not Gods. The 2x2 Church has covered up countless rapes and cases of CSA. It seems that Satan has fooled many into covering up rape and CSA in the name of God for fear of going to hell. The 2x2 standard practice as it has always been is to shun and silence the victim into not reporting it. It is also standard practice to "protect" the perpetrator not the victim and move the perpetrator to a new area where they are free to assault more innocent children and people. Those actions are NOT about God or being Godly people. Seems that Satan has fooled many into thinking that this church is about God when it also seems that it is more about Satans ways then Gods ways. Isn't it Satan that thought he knew better than God? It is also true that many Elders, workers and Overseers have said that they don't have to follow Gods rule because they know better just like good old Leroy as I wrote earlier. Just a thought. Here's my thought. Don't blame an entity no one even knows exists for the crimes of humans. It's a useless exercise imo.
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Dean Bruer
Apr 23, 2023 17:34:07 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 23, 2023 17:34:07 GMT -5
Has the truth been made public about Sri Lanka? Have not heard of Sri Lanka , can you share please , even if a pm
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2023 17:47:34 GMT -5
Here is something that I have not saw anyone bring up yet. Satan is the Lord of lies and the ultimate deceiver that is known to all. He is also in this for the long haul as his battle for control of our souls has been going on for quite sometime. God loves, heals and protects his people. God does NOT condone rape, CSA or any other evil act yet the 2x2 church does. Rape, CSA and the covering up of them are Satans tools and Satans ways not Gods. The 2x2 Church has covered up countless rapes and cases of CSA. It seems that Satan has fooled many into covering up rape and CSA in the name of God for fear of going to hell. The 2x2 standard practice as it has always been is to shun and silence the victim into not reporting it. It is also standard practice to "protect" the perpetrator not the victim and move the perpetrator to a new area where they are free to assault more innocent children and people. Those actions are NOT about God or being Godly people. Seems that Satan has fooled many into thinking that this church is about God when it also seems that it is more about Satans ways then Gods ways. Isn't it Satan that thought he knew better than God? It is also true that many Elders, workers and Overseers have said that they don't have to follow Gods rule because they know better just like good old Leroy as I wrote earlier. Just a thought. I've yet to see anyone worker or elder or laity "condone" any of that or anything else written or verbal in the Truth. That would be a lie.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 23, 2023 17:48:34 GMT -5
Has the truth been made public about Sri Lanka? I am not aware of that. Some good people were badly hurt so that an arsehole could have his ego massaged.
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Post by Vinny T. on Apr 23, 2023 17:54:40 GMT -5
It would be a very bad idea for anyone to identify themselves to our resident worker. Been there, done that. Very bad idea. This..... while you regularly and ‘righteously‘ post about ad hominem attacks! 🤣 🤣 I have no apology to offer for challenging posters to substantiate the unsubstantiated incorrect allegations they make on this forum. About time someone did this rather than just applause from the team of cheerleaders.Nor for showing the hypocrisy of 'righteous' posters that howl in indignation about me doing this. Responding with ad hominem attacks. One of the things they so loudly condemn! 🤭🤷♂️🤨 I am going to go against what I said and contact you directly in this post. I haven't been on here in a few days and I come back and it is just NON STOP with your relentlessly picking at people. YOU HAVE NO ROOM TO TALK. According to you there has been a single incident where the church turned someone in. Yet you can't prove it. You are the ONLY person to know of such an incident and will not provide ANY supporting facts yet you have the audacity to ask for details on other peoples postings? "IF" it happened which is highly unlikely giving the name of the convicted criminal who was incarcerated would hurt no one it's public record there dude. But you can't because it didn't happen. Now you want peoples real names? You post yours and we will start there. You "demand" a lot from people on here but give very little. WHY ARE YOU HERE? What do you post about? Nothing but trying to put doubt into people mind that the church is NOT protecting pedos and rapists which everyday it is proven that that is exactly what they have always done. Unless everyone of them is a liar. Do you give ANY advice? No, you attack relentlessly. Do you give ANY support or help to people? No, you insult. Do you do ANYTHING remotely positive on here? No, you are the single biggest negative influence on here. This is your life and you are a sad sad lost man. Do you give any stories supporting you claim that the 2x2s are anything other than what is coming out?(besides made up ones with NO details that people are just supposed to believe)NO, you do nothing but attempt to be quippy. WHY ARE YOU ON HERE? ? I've gotten many messages from people who have stated that you have gotten kicked off here before. I can't wait until it happens again. I honestly have no idea what the moderators are waiting for. You just attack, attack and attack people constantly. Try understanding peoples plights and the extreme abuse they have went through. Try understanding that their life is forever changed and all the church has done is belittle them, bully them into silence then shun them all the while going out of their way to protect the abusers, pedophiles and rapist. That is Not of God. I don't know why it is so hard for you to understand that. There nothing you can say to make those actions seem to be about God, being a good person, or doing the right thing.(except for the church) You're higher up in the church a worker, elder or whatever great. You still can't polish a sweet nothing bud all you end up with is a shiny piece of poo. Do you offer anything other than attacks, wannabe sarcasm and the like? The truth is coming out about the truth whether you like it or not. You can't stop it. Are you going to attack each new member on here who shares something you want covered up? I have come to terms with the type of person you are. The more you attack people the more it shows your true nature. Look you don't like it and I get that. But enough is enough, stop the relentless attacking people. Do you live to argue? Is this the highlight of your day? Do you get some sort of twisted satisfaction with your constant negativity? Don't you have something better to do than to constantly attack people? Take a break for a week, it'll do you some good.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 23, 2023 18:00:05 GMT -5
I also believe that this is an existential threat to the future of the fellowship. On pretty much every level, how could it be otherwise? What pisses me off is that I could clearly see that it was an existential threat as a teenager. I expected that all adults (and all people in authority) could clearly see just that. So why wasn't all of this taken seriously 50 years ago? It could be that they were as naive as I was? (That takes quite a bit of naivete.) I could almost buy that explanation for up until the late 1990's, early 2000's. But, beyond that, it is a bit of a stretch. Or, has here been some sort of payoff for people in positions of authority? 👀 👀 👀 Hello there, I have to say with everything that is coming out you may be correct. But the crimes have gone on and been covered up for far too long. It is sad but it is good that it is finally coming out. Information that has come out is pretty damming. It may very well be that it is just sheer arrogance and pigheadedness (after the initial naivete and ignorance). I am totally open to that possibility. If it is, I would like to see an apology to the many people harmed, and a very transparent correction to behavior going forward. But if there is something more, I am pretty confident that it is about to be exposed. People are fed up and people are tenacious. And if some things remain successfully hidden from other people, how can you hide from the God you profess to believe in? Like, seriously.
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Post by Vinny T. on Apr 23, 2023 18:04:08 GMT -5
Here is something that I have not saw anyone bring up yet. Satan is the Lord of lies and the ultimate deceiver that is known to all. He is also in this for the long haul as his battle for control of our souls has been going on for quite sometime. God loves, heals and protects his people. God does NOT condone rape, CSA or any other evil act yet the 2x2 church does. Rape, CSA and the covering up of them are Satans tools and Satans ways not Gods. The 2x2 Church has covered up countless rapes and cases of CSA. It seems that Satan has fooled many into covering up rape and CSA in the name of God for fear of going to hell. The 2x2 standard practice as it has always been is to shun and silence the victim into not reporting it. It is also standard practice to "protect" the perpetrator not the victim and move the perpetrator to a new area where they are free to assault more innocent children and people. Those actions are NOT about God or being Godly people. Seems that Satan has fooled many into thinking that this church is about God when it also seems that it is more about Satans ways then Gods ways. Isn't it Satan that thought he knew better than God? It is also true that many Elders, workers and Overseers have said that they don't have to follow Gods rule because they know better just like good old Leroy as I wrote earlier. Just a thought. Here's my thought. Don't blame an entity no one even knows exists for the crimes of humans. It's a useless exercise imo. I agree partially, humans are the ultimate ones responsible. The only exception would be the standard practice of the entity that few know exist is to shame and silence the victims and do nothing but move the guilty parties. I blame the entity that has remained under the radar for instituting a standard practice that has protected rapists and pedophiles the entire time since it was formed. It is of humans that do the crimes and protect the guilty and "say" it is of God. One of the most common practices of the entity is to protect the rapists and pedos. And it is standard procedure to do just that. How can one not blame the entity regardless of its secrecy or public awareness when that is a standard procedure?
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Post by snow on Apr 23, 2023 18:07:03 GMT -5
Here's my thought. Don't blame an entity no one even knows exists for the crimes of humans. It's a useless exercise imo. I agree partially, humans are the ultimate ones responsible. The only exception would be the standard practice of the entity that few know exist is to shame and silence the victims and do nothing but move the guilty parties. I blame the entity that has remained under the radar for instituting a standard practice that has protected rapists and pedophiles the entire time since it was formed. It is of humans that do the crimes and protect the guilty and "say" it is of God. One of the most common practices of the entity is to protect the rapists and pedos. And it is standard procedure to do just that. How can one not blame the entity regardless of its secrecy or public awareness when that is a standard procedure? Are we talking about a human 'entity' or is the 'entity' Satan? I read your post as blaming Satan. If that's not what you meant, then just ignore what I posted.
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Post by Vinny T. on Apr 23, 2023 18:09:18 GMT -5
Here is something that I have not saw anyone bring up yet. Satan is the Lord of lies and the ultimate deceiver that is known to all. He is also in this for the long haul as his battle for control of our souls has been going on for quite sometime. God loves, heals and protects his people. God does NOT condone rape, CSA or any other evil act yet the 2x2 church does. Rape, CSA and the covering up of them are Satans tools and Satans ways not Gods. The 2x2 Church has covered up countless rapes and cases of CSA. It seems that Satan has fooled many into covering up rape and CSA in the name of God for fear of going to hell. The 2x2 standard practice as it has always been is to shun and silence the victim into not reporting it. It is also standard practice to "protect" the perpetrator not the victim and move the perpetrator to a new area where they are free to assault more innocent children and people. Those actions are NOT about God or being Godly people. Seems that Satan has fooled many into thinking that this church is about God when it also seems that it is more about Satans ways then Gods ways. Isn't it Satan that thought he knew better than God? It is also true that many Elders, workers and Overseers have said that they don't have to follow Gods rule because they know better just like good old Leroy as I wrote earlier. Just a thought. I've yet to see anyone worker or elder or laity "condone" any of that or anything else written or verbal in the Truth. That would be a lie. There are many letters coming out where Overseer after Overseer has silenced the victim and protected the perpetrator. It may not be written and I didn't say it was I am saying that it is a standard practice to do NOTHING but move and protect the perpetrator then silence the victim, Those actions make it seem like they condone the behavior. If they didn't why haven't they been reported over the decades? To protect the church no matter what.
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Post by Vinny T. on Apr 23, 2023 18:11:22 GMT -5
I agree partially, humans are the ultimate ones responsible. The only exception would be the standard practice of the entity that few know exist is to shame and silence the victims and do nothing but move the guilty parties. I blame the entity that has remained under the radar for instituting a standard practice that has protected rapists and pedophiles the entire time since it was formed. It is of humans that do the crimes and protect the guilty and "say" it is of God. One of the most common practices of the entity is to protect the rapists and pedos. And it is standard procedure to do just that. How can one not blame the entity regardless of its secrecy or public awareness when that is a standard procedure? Are we talking about a human 'entity' or is the 'entity' Satan? I read your post as blaming Satan. If that's not what you meant, then just ignore what I posted. I blame Satan for making good people hide horrible crimes as a standard procedure in a hidden church. Satan is the ultimate deceiver.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 23, 2023 18:14:37 GMT -5
Sad to report that the Arizona story is true ! TW: graphic CSA descriptions CASE UPDATE: Ray Zwiefelhofer in Maricopa County, Arizona has a trial date of May 18th, 2023. Ray was arrested in September 2022 and has been charged with possessing 87 sexually explicit videos and photos of children, some less than 10 years old. He is out on bail, is not allowed to be around minors (under age 18), and is NOT currently attending meetings in-person since his arrest. These documents shared from his case are public record and were retrieved from the Maricopa County Courthouse. More public documents can be found and retrieved in-person from there. Case # CR2022-133985-001 Maricopa County Criminal Court Case Information: http:// www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/ docket/CriminalCourtCases/ caselnfo.asp? caseNumber=CR2022-133985 News article from the time of his arrest: www.azfamily.com/2022/09/08/ phoenix-software-company-president-accused-having-child-porn/ VICTIM SURVIVOR RESOURCES www.rainn.org/../adult-survivors-child-sexual-abuseAlso please consider alerting the hotline if you have abuse or a tip to report: voicesforthetruth.org/The hotline is completely confidential and operates 24/7. It is managed by Cynthia Liles, a Private Investigator specializing in CSA cases across the nation. So just a tip If you post something , please make sure it is verified and the proper documentation is provided .
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 23, 2023 18:15:09 GMT -5
It took us a while but we got it !
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 23, 2023 18:17:05 GMT -5
I've yet to see anyone worker or elder or laity "condone" any of that or anything else written or verbal in the Truth. That would be a lie. There are many letters coming out where Overseer after Overseer has silenced the victim and protected the perpetrator. It may not be written and I didn't say it was I am saying that it is a standard practice to do NOTHING but move and protect the perpetrator then silence the victim, Those actions make it seem like they condone the behavior. If they didn't why haven't they been reported over the decades? To protect the church no matter what. The problem is, it is not "protecting the church". It is undermining the church and betraying all the really good people who are invested in it. Why can they not see that?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 23, 2023 18:17:05 GMT -5
Here is something that I have not saw anyone bring up yet. Satan is the Lord of lies and the ultimate deceiver that is known to all. He is also in this for the long haul as his battle for control of our souls has been going on for quite sometime. God loves, heals and protects his people. God does NOT condone rape, CSA or any other evil act yet the 2x2 church does. Rape, CSA and the covering up of them are Satans tools and Satans ways not Gods. The 2x2 Church has covered up countless rapes and cases of CSA. It seems that Satan has fooled many into covering up rape and CSA in the name of God for fear of going to hell. The 2x2 standard practice as it has always been is to shun and silence the victim into not reporting it. It is also standard practice to "protect" the perpetrator not the victim and move the perpetrator to a new area where they are free to assault more innocent children and people. Those actions are NOT about God or being Godly people. Seems that Satan has fooled many into thinking that this church is about God when it also seems that it is more about Satans ways then Gods ways. Isn't it Satan that thought he knew better than God? It is also true that many Elders, workers and Overseers have said that they don't have to follow Gods rule because they know better just like good old Leroy as I wrote earlier. Just a thought. I've yet to see anyone worker or elder or laity "condone" any of that or anything else written or verbal in the Truth. That would be a lie. A coverup is a condoning. Every coverup is a lie. We have ALL been given coverup explanations that we had no reason to question. Of course you didn't "SEE" anyone condone such things. We believed them all in our naivete.
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Post by verna on Apr 23, 2023 18:17:45 GMT -5
Are we talking about a human 'entity' or is the 'entity' Satan? I read your post as blaming Satan. If that's not what you meant, then just ignore what I posted. I blame Satan for making good people hide horrible crimes as a standard procedure in a hidden church. Satan is the ultimate deceiver. I don’t understand why people blame Satan. Just confuses the situation.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 23, 2023 18:22:50 GMT -5
I blame Satan for making good people hide horrible crimes as a standard procedure in a hidden church. Satan is the ultimate deceiver. I don’t understand why people blame Satan. Just confuses the situation. It absolves people of their own naivete and stupidity. It provides them with a threat of infidelity on non-believers of claims. It provides the ineffective with a final word in a discussion.
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Post by fixit on Apr 23, 2023 18:45:44 GMT -5
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Post by Pragmatic on Apr 23, 2023 18:58:30 GMT -5
I wonder what ever happened to Peter Morrison. Seems to be a bit of a plonker
Thanks Fixit
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Dean Bruer
Apr 23, 2023 19:09:25 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 23, 2023 19:09:25 GMT -5
Thank you Fixit . Appreciate your help
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Post by fixit on Apr 23, 2023 19:22:37 GMT -5
I wonder what ever happened to Peter Morrison. Seems to be a bit of a plonker Organisations tend to become tribal over time, which leads to their failure. Those who go with the flow are highly esteemed, while those who question the status quo are despised.
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