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Post by nathan on Oct 11, 2020 15:06:04 GMT -5
Nathan this is exactly what I mean by saying we dont have a hope understanding the NT if we don't understand the OT. What you are repeating to me seems like 2000 years of religion derived from literal reading mainly of the NT. This is heavily influenced by Catholicism and you are repeating the very thing originating from the people you despise. Who said it was to be all read literally?. Who?. A Hebraic perspective sheds a whole new light on it, and what you will find is Heaven to those people, it seems more like a state of mind, not a specific place like us westerners push. Same with Hell. When they heard fire they thought purify, we think,flames,devil, hell, down. When they heard Eternal life, they thought a type of life lived out now, we think, living for ever and ever. When they heard hell they thought the grave or a rubbish dump life that stinks, we think burning, fire, down, devil. We think all these things, Hebrew people feel all these things. We think thoughts, they feel thoughts. We cannot grasp this because 2000+ years on our understanding and culture has evolved dramatically and we go back with our current understanding to read it, which we have to read it all quite literally to make sense with our current understanding, throw in the constant urge for man to control man by continued misuse of the scriptures by you must see it this way or we'll kill you and there we have it, Unity by way of Religion. The constant division and segregation of people by way of religion is the total opposite to the narrative of scripture. The best way to live your life is, Compassionate, Gracious, Slow to anger and Abounding in love, this cannot mix with religion when "you must worship my concept of God" is the religious motto. None of this is to say there is not a heaven or hell ect after you die, I dont know, but what I do know if your in hell now, you can bet you'll be in hell there!. The Character of Christ lived out in your life is Eternal life, heaven!, Now!. 2000 years is not the right comparison to be making. There are many other documents written at the same time as the New Testament which show that the apostles were teaching the early Christians a message of hell and eternal torture. If you want to make the argument that Christianity was perverted over the years or that there was a lack of understanding of the culture, you need to show that this ignorance initiated in the first 50-70 years after Jesus was crucified. The Apocalypse of Peter is one of the best examples of eternal torture in hell being taught, and it conservatively dates to 100AD. 21 And I saw also another place over against that one, very squalid; and it was a place of punishment, and they that were punished and the angels that punished them had their raiment dark, according to the air of the place. 22 And some there were there hanging by their tongues; and these were they that blasphemed the way of righteousness, and under them was laid fire flaming and tormenting them. 23 And there was a great lake full of flaming mire, wherein were certain men that turned away from righteousness; and angels, tormentors, were set over them. 24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery. And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place. 25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement. 26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock (?) and caused abortion. 27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up. 28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness. 29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses. 30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God. 31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury. 32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman. 33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment.... 34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God. Clearly that is not all figurative. ** Peter's writing is very interesting indeed. Did God take Peter physical body or his spirit to Hades and show him these things were happening at the time.
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Post by intelchips on Oct 11, 2020 15:35:53 GMT -5
2000 years is not the right comparison to be making. There are many other documents written at the same time as the New Testament which show that the apostles were teaching the early Christians a message of hell and eternal torture. If you want to make the argument that Christianity was perverted over the years or that there was a lack of understanding of the culture, you need to show that this ignorance initiated in the first 50-70 years after Jesus was crucified. The Apocalypse of Peter is one of the best examples of eternal torture in hell being taught, and it conservatively dates to 100AD. 21 And I saw also another place over against that one, very squalid; and it was a place of punishment, and they that were punished and the angels that punished them had their raiment dark, according to the air of the place. 22 And some there were there hanging by their tongues; and these were they that blasphemed the way of righteousness, and under them was laid fire flaming and tormenting them. 23 And there was a great lake full of flaming mire, wherein were certain men that turned away from righteousness; and angels, tormentors, were set over them. 24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery. And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place. 25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement. 26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock (?) and caused abortion. 27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up. 28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness. 29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses. 30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God. 31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury. 32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman. 33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment.... 34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God. Clearly that is not all figurative. ** Peter's writing is very interesting indeed. Did God take Peter physical body or his spirit to Hades and show him these things were happening at the time. It seems to me what openingact34 is pointing out is the fact that the account of the torments to be borne by sinful men was borrowed from Orphic and Pythagorean religious texts, thereby introducing pagan ideas of heaven and hell into Christian literature.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 11, 2020 16:12:49 GMT -5
Okay I'll make one more attempt to explain. If the majority of Christians read Paul's works and get a warm fuzzy feeling and drift off into thinking all is right with the world and then come to the bits where Paul is talking hostile towards James and his followers in Jerusalem and never question what is going on there or never research deeper to find out why this doesn't seem out of character for a fellow Christian to be at odds. Perhaps some other scholars here that are better communicators then myself will come to our aid and give a better explanation to what I'm trying to explain. Sorry jetmech I can only point you at the data. What you make of it is up to you. You are not the only one that has noticed this and one dos not have to be much of a scholar or a communicator to realize Paul was a prick. The changes in his life that he seems proud of post "vision" are all smoke and mirrors. He stayed a prick. Not all of what is attributed to Paul in the Bible is actually considered to be Paul's writings by scholars of ancient texts.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Oct 11, 2020 16:19:54 GMT -5
DM or BW can you dumb it down . I cannot follow it Thx
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 11, 2020 16:37:47 GMT -5
DM or BW can you dumb it down . I cannot follow it Thx I'm afraid it may not be worth the time.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 11, 2020 16:50:46 GMT -5
You are not the only one that has noticed this and one dos not have to be much of a scholar or a communicator to realize Paul was a prick. The changes in his life that he seems proud of post "vision" are all smoke and mirrors. He stayed a prick. "It is impossible for us to look into the mind of a man long dead and determine his motives conclusively. Was he a sincere and loyal convert who simply misunderstood the teachings of his new master, or did he have a more sinister intent to subvert and undermine the teachings of him who he claimed to be the messianic savior? We’ll never know. What we can say with certainty, however, is that after examining the legacy of writing he left — more than any other writer in the Bible — that for whatever reason, intentional or a great historical misunderstanding, the message he left opposed and undermined that of the titular messiah (Jesus the “Christ”) to whom he claimed obeisance. The evidence becomes apparent when we compare the words of Paul side by side with those attributed to Jesus (who left no writings of his own) and to the other followers closest to Jesus, such as his brother James." - Danizier Well put.
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Post by intelchips on Oct 11, 2020 17:13:29 GMT -5
DM or BW can you dumb it down . I cannot follow it Thx you didn't ask me but perhaps this will help: Romans 3:28 (Paul) KJV: a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. RSV: a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Today’s English Version: a person is put right with god only through faith, and not by doing what the Law commands. NIV: a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. VS James 2:24 (James’ rebuttal) KJV: by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. RSV: a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Today’s English Version: it is by his actions that a person is put right with god, and not by his faith alone. NIV: a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. However, it doesn't end there. Most modern researchers now think that Paul being at Stephens stoning is a retell of Paul being at James death. Who would know better? A man that never meet Jesus or his brother?
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Post by openingact34 on Oct 11, 2020 17:19:05 GMT -5
** Peter's writing is very interesting indeed. Did God take Peter physical body or his spirit to Hades and show him these things were happening at the time. It seems to me what openingact34 is pointing out is the fact that the account of the torments to be borne by sinful men was borrowed from Orphic and Pythagorean religious texts, thereby introducing pagan ideas of heaven and hell into Christian literature. They may have originated as pagan ideas, but that doesn't mean that Jesus did not preach them. Good cult leaders are expert plagiarists, borrowing anything that can increase control over their followers. And what has been more effective than the threat of eternal torture? In my experience, the same people that insist Jesus would have never preached hell as a Hebrew are simultaneously quite open to the possibility that he traveled to India or Nepal and studied Buddhism, incorporating those ideas into Christianity. When we accept the evil nature of God that is revealed through the scriptures, the Bible really opens up to us in understanding.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Oct 11, 2020 17:21:30 GMT -5
Sorry 😐 intelchips , I am wary 😒 , I will start to trust you It takes time
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Post by openingact34 on Oct 11, 2020 17:21:51 GMT -5
You are not the only one that has noticed this and one dos not have to be much of a scholar or a communicator to realize Paul was a prick. The changes in his life that he seems proud of post "vision" are all smoke and mirrors. He stayed a prick. Not all of what is attributed to Paul in the Bible is actually considered to be Paul's writings by scholars of ancient texts. If there was a election-style fact checking contest between the Bible and Nathan's website, Nathan's would win with less plagiarism
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Post by intelchips on Oct 11, 2020 17:27:46 GMT -5
Sorry 😐 intelchips , I am wary 😒 , I will start to trust you It takes time Oh hell no don't trust me. Thrust your own mind to investigate. I may point at the data but you must decided for yourself.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Oct 11, 2020 17:38:26 GMT -5
Kk sometimes I cannot follow so I ask . I do us my mind as much as possible . I cannot even find my way to my bathroom . I am still in pj’s in YYC
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Post by intelchips on Oct 11, 2020 17:47:52 GMT -5
Kk sometimes I cannot follow so I ask . I do us my mind as much as possible . I cannot even find my way to my bathroom . I am still in pj’s in YYC ha funny that Calgary International Airport, branded as YYC Calgary International Airport allows you to hang out in PJs
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Post by nathan on Oct 11, 2020 17:50:53 GMT -5
It seems to me what openingact34 is pointing out is the fact that the account of the torments to be borne by sinful men was borrowed from Orphic and Pythagorean religious texts, thereby introducing pagan ideas of heaven and hell into Christian literature. They may have originated as pagan ideas, but that doesn't mean that Jesus did not preach them. Good cult leaders are expert plagiarists, borrowing anything that can increase control over their followers. And what has been more effective than the threat of eternal torture? In my experience, the same people that insist Jesus would have never preached hell as a Hebrew are simultaneously quite open to the possibility that he traveled to India or Nepal and studied Buddhism, incorporating those ideas into Christianity. When we accept the evil nature of God that is revealed through the scriptures, the Bible really opens up to us in understanding. ** Jesus is God the 2nd Being/Spirit of the Godhead of ALL Knowing and creator of all things. What do you think Buddhism or the monks in Nepal teach him about anything? I read Jesus uncle Joseph Amarthia was a travelling Merchant and Jesus traveled with him to many different countries. I believe Jesus taught the Nepal monks, pagans priests and unbeievers about the God of Yahweh, Creators of all things.
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Post by openingact34 on Oct 11, 2020 18:09:28 GMT -5
They may have originated as pagan ideas, but that doesn't mean that Jesus did not preach them. Good cult leaders are expert plagiarists, borrowing anything that can increase control over their followers. And what has been more effective than the threat of eternal torture? In my experience, the same people that insist Jesus would have never preached hell as a Hebrew are simultaneously quite open to the possibility that he traveled to India or Nepal and studied Buddhism, incorporating those ideas into Christianity. When we accept the evil nature of God that is revealed through the scriptures, the Bible really opens up to us in understanding. ** Jesus is God the 2nd Being/Spirit of the Godhead of ALL Knowing and creator of all things. What do you think Buddhism or the monks in Nepal teach him about anything? Anger management for one thing
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Oct 11, 2020 18:14:54 GMT -5
Intelchips it is a dfa day ! You can figure it out . No swearing lmao
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Post by intelchips on Oct 11, 2020 18:18:22 GMT -5
They may have originated as pagan ideas, but that doesn't mean that Jesus did not preach them. Good cult leaders are expert plagiarists, borrowing anything that can increase control over their followers. And what has been more effective than the threat of eternal torture? In my experience, the same people that insist Jesus would have never preached hell as a Hebrew are simultaneously quite open to the possibility that he traveled to India or Nepal and studied Buddhism, incorporating those ideas into Christianity. When we accept the evil nature of God that is revealed through the scriptures, the Bible really opens up to us in understanding. ** Jesus is God the 2nd Being/Spirit of the Godhead of ALL Knowing and creator of all things. What do you think Buddhism or the monks in Nepal teach him about anything? First he could learn not to trust King James. If one knows how to read it actual says "In the beginning Gods created the heaven and the earth."
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 11, 2020 18:26:45 GMT -5
** Jesus is God the 2nd Being/Spirit of the Godhead of ALL Knowing and creator of all things. What do you think Buddhism or the monks in Nepal teach him about anything? First he could learn not to trust King James. If one knows how to read it actual says "In the beginning Gods created the heaven and the earth." King James insisted in adding the part he used to justify his right to the throne. PS: There was even an episode of the series TUDORS that showed that.
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Post by nathan on Oct 11, 2020 18:43:11 GMT -5
** Jesus is God the 2nd Being/Spirit of the Godhead of ALL Knowing and creator of all things. What do you think Buddhism or the monks in Nepal teach him about anything? Anger management for one thing *** If you were God then you would understand why you think He needs angry management class in dealing with stiff neck, stubborn, disobedience Jews and the fallen humans race. It would be better for God to destroy us all and start making people as AI robots always do as He programs them to obey without talking back.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 11, 2020 18:46:38 GMT -5
Anger management for one thing *** If you were God then you would understand why you think He needs angry management class in dealing with stiff neck, stubborn, disobedience Jews and the fallen humans race. It would be better for God to destroy us all and start making people as AI robots always do as He programs them to obey without talking back. And if YOU were God, some of us might take you seriously.
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Post by nathan on Oct 11, 2020 18:48:58 GMT -5
** Jesus is God the 2nd Being/Spirit of the Godhead of ALL Knowing and creator of all things. What do you think Buddhism or the monks in Nepal teach him about anything? First he could learn not to trust King James. If one knows how to read it actual says "In the beginning Gods created the heaven and the earth." ** God the Father and Christ did create the heavens, earth, the Milky Way and trillions galaxies in the Universe... Jesus said so Himself and the gospel of John and the book of Hebrews wrote about it.
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Post by nathan on Oct 11, 2020 18:51:10 GMT -5
*** If you were God then you would understand why you think He needs angry management class in dealing with stiff neck, stubborn, disobedience Jews and the fallen humans race. It would be better for God to destroy us all and start making people as AI robots always do as He programs them to obey without talking back. And if YOU were God, some of us might take you seriously. *** I am the son of God, and you still don't take me seriously. You used to be the son of God too! for over 50 yrs... Don't you remember?
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 11, 2020 19:29:52 GMT -5
And if YOU were God, some of us might take you seriously. *** I am the son of God, and you still don't take me seriously. You used to be the son of God too! for over 50 yrs... Don't you remember? Pfffff I was never the son of God. Neither are you.
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Post by openingact34 on Oct 11, 2020 19:47:57 GMT -5
Anger management for one thing *** If you were God then you would understand why you think He needs angry management class in dealing with stiff neck, stubborn, disobedience Jews and the fallen humans race. It would be better for God to destroy us all and start making people as AI robots always do as He programs them to obey without talking back. I was just thinking about the rampage through the temple with a whip and flipping tables, etc. He was lucky there wasn't a white guy like Wally with a concealed carry license.
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Post by chuck on Oct 11, 2020 20:28:47 GMT -5
Nathan this is exactly what I mean by saying we dont have a hope understanding the NT if we don't understand the OT. What you are repeating to me seems like 2000 years of religion derived from literal reading mainly of the NT. This is heavily influenced by Catholicism and you are repeating the very thing originating from the people you despise. Who said it was to be all read literally?. Who?. A Hebraic perspective sheds a whole new light on it, and what you will find is Heaven to those people, it seems more like a state of mind, not a specific place like us westerners push. Same with Hell. When they heard fire they thought purify, we think,flames,devil, hell, down. When they heard Eternal life, they thought a type of life lived out now, we think, living for ever and ever. When they heard hell they thought the grave or a rubbish dump life that stinks, we think burning, fire, down, devil. We think all these things, Hebrew people feel all these things. We think thoughts, they feel thoughts. We cannot grasp this because 2000+ years on our understanding and culture has evolved dramatically and we go back with our current understanding to read it, which we have to read it all quite literally to make sense with our current understanding, throw in the constant urge for man to control man by continued misuse of the scriptures by you must see it this way or we'll kill you and there we have it, Unity by way of Religion. The constant division and segregation of people by way of religion is the total opposite to the narrative of scripture. The best way to live your life is, Compassionate, Gracious, Slow to anger and Abounding in love, this cannot mix with religion when "you must worship my concept of God" is the religious motto. None of this is to say there is not a heaven or hell ect after you die, I dont know, but what I do know if your in hell now, you can bet you'll be in hell there!. The Character of Christ lived out in your life is Eternal life, heaven!, Now!. 2000 years is not the right comparison to be making. There are many other documents written at the same time as the New Testament which show that the apostles were teaching the early Christians a message of hell and eternal torture. If you want to make the argument that Christianity was perverted over the years or that there was a lack of understanding of the culture, you need to show that this ignorance initiated in the first 50-70 years after Jesus was crucified. The Apocalypse of Peter is one of the best examples of eternal torture in hell being taught, and it conservatively dates to 100AD. 21 And I saw also another place over against that one, very squalid; and it was a place of punishment, and they that were punished and the angels that punished them had their raiment dark, according to the air of the place. 22 And some there were there hanging by their tongues; and these were they that blasphemed the way of righteousness, and under them was laid fire flaming and tormenting them. 23 And there was a great lake full of flaming mire, wherein were certain men that turned away from righteousness; and angels, tormentors, were set over them. 24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery. And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place. 25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement. 26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock (?) and caused abortion. 27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up. 28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness. 29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses. 30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God. 31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury. 32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman. 33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment.... 34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God. Clearly that is not all figurative. Why do you assume it is all literal and that they thought it as all literl like you. We can see Hebrew had concepts they put into words. We can see they used stories to carry meaningful applications in life. We can see they had less than 10000 words while we have 10 times that many. We can see they felt their thoughts while we think them. We can see even the translation to greek started to lose its meaning. All of these things we can see if you want to look but yet you are dogmatic that it must be read literally. Why? Peter's understanding of Hebrew lore didnt change because you read it literally. To him Fire would have stil meant purify in a life application even though your read it fire burning someone literally.
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Post by chuck on Oct 11, 2020 20:31:00 GMT -5
2000 years is not the right comparison to be making. There are many other documents written at the same time as the New Testament which show that the apostles were teaching the early Christians a message of hell and eternal torture. If you want to make the argument that Christianity was perverted over the years or that there was a lack of understanding of the culture, you need to show that this ignorance initiated in the first 50-70 years after Jesus was crucified. The Apocalypse of Peter is one of the best examples of eternal torture in hell being taught, and it conservatively dates to 100AD. 21 And I saw also another place over against that one, very squalid; and it was a place of punishment, and they that were punished and the angels that punished them had their raiment dark, according to the air of the place. 22 And some there were there hanging by their tongues; and these were they that blasphemed the way of righteousness, and under them was laid fire flaming and tormenting them. 23 And there was a great lake full of flaming mire, wherein were certain men that turned away from righteousness; and angels, tormentors, were set over them. 24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery. And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place. 25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement. 26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock (?) and caused abortion. 27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up. 28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness. 29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses. 30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God. 31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury. 32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman. 33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment.... 34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God. Clearly that is not all figurative. ** Peter's writing is very interesting indeed. Did God take Peter physical body or his spirit to Hades and show him these things were happening at the time. And we wonder why people take it literally.
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Post by nathan on Oct 11, 2020 20:34:03 GMT -5
*** I am the son of God, and you still don't take me seriously. You used to be the son of God too! for over 50 yrs... Don't you remember? Pfffff I was never the son of God. Neither are you. So, sad for a man who professed for over 50 years, and had a Wed. Bible Study in his own home. He didn't know he was one of God's children. You can deny that you were NOT a child of God but I know I am, BobW.
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Post by nathan on Oct 11, 2020 20:35:29 GMT -5
** Peter's writing is very interesting indeed. Did God take Peter physical body or his spirit to Hades and show him these things were happening at the time. And we wonder why people take it literally. Well, would you take Heaven literally? Would you take God literally?
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