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Post by Lee on Oct 17, 2020 18:39:20 GMT -5
He confused sin with passion and freedom with tyranny. That you must sin in order to live is a subjective conclusion.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 17, 2020 20:03:17 GMT -5
Saved from the scene of sin that characterizes so much of the human condition. Saved from your own sins. Saved from idolatry. Some things are getting better in the world, some worse. There is light in the world, but darkness is always plotting. Increasingly, the battle between good and evil will be more political. Lee, that is the story that mankind has told themselves through out their history.
The narrative of the "battle between good and evil" has been played though out history with many different scenarios but all of which postulates the development of events which in turn causes what happens on this stage called the world.
The places & the actors and the storyline changes as to the particular time in history & which area of the world it is story is conceived.
They are fascinating to contemplate! But the variety & huge number are overwhelming at times.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 17, 2020 20:32:59 GMT -5
Lee, -have YOU ever had a conversation with yourself and asked yourself, "Self, -just exactly what are these sins that I have committed that I need to be delivered from?"
Then Lee, have YOU ever had a conversation with yourself and asked yourself, "Self, what will happen to me if I am NOT "saved from those so called "sins?"
Next comes the question to oneself , " Am I not being selfish that I should believe and rely on someone else, -in this case Jesus, -an innocent person to die a horrible death just to "save " me from the consequences of my errors but shouldn't I instead recognize my mistakes and work in the future to correct them myself?"
How does a person undo a mistake? The error has been made, its a done deal. All a person can do is repent of a mistake and attempt not to repeat it.
Jesus covered the consequences of our mistakes (sins), because we could not. The repercussions of sin was paid, its a done deal.
You can't "undo" a mistake.
One needs to realize it was a mistake and admit it was a mistake, -both of which it is often difficult and then, -as you said, Dan, "-attempt not to repeat it."
My problem is with the idea that, "Jesus will cover the consequences of their mistakes (sins) " To me that is just "wishful" thinking, -a story that people tell themselves to make them feel better.
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Post by Dan on Oct 17, 2020 20:33:09 GMT -5
"When we drink, we get drunk. When we get drunk, we fall asleep. When we fall asleep, we commit no sin. When we commit no sin, we go to heaven. So, let's all get drunk and go to heaven!" ~ George Bernard Shaw
Sad to say that somehow I manage to commit sin even in my sleep, my dreams aren't always G rated.
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Post by Dan on Oct 17, 2020 20:38:22 GMT -5
How does a person undo a mistake? The error has been made, its a done deal. All a person can do is repent of a mistake and attempt not to repeat it.
Jesus covered the consequences of our mistakes (sins), because we could not. The repercussions of sin was paid, its a done deal.
You can't "undo" a mistake.
One needs to realize it was a mistake and admit it was a mistake, -both of which it is often difficult and then, -as you said, Dan, "-attempt not to repeat it."
My problem is with the idea that, "Jesus will cover the consequences of their mistakes (sins) " To me that is just "wishful" thinking, -a story that people tell themselves to make them feel better.
Well, if Jesus did not pay for our debts, nothing else on Earth will suffice, so I certainly feel better knowing I am sanctified through Christ.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 17, 2020 22:35:26 GMT -5
"When we drink, we get drunk. When we get drunk, we fall asleep. When we fall asleep, we commit no sin. When we commit no sin, we go to heaven. So, let's all get drunk and go to heaven!" ~ George Bernard Shaw Sad to say that somehow I manage to commit sin even in my sleep, my dreams aren't always G rated. You consider that a sin?
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 17, 2020 23:19:40 GMT -5
You can't "undo" a mistake.
One needs to realize it was a mistake and admit it was a mistake, -both of which it is often difficult and then, -as you said, Dan, "-attempt not to repeat it."
My problem is with the idea that, "Jesus will cover the consequences of their mistakes (sins) " To me that is just "wishful" thinking, -a story that people tell themselves to make them feel better.
Well, if Jesus did not pay for our debts, nothing else on Earth will suffice, so I certainly feel better knowing I am sanctified through Christ.
Of course it makes you feel better, Dan. That was my point.
People have created all of those stories of "gods" & being "saved" (sanctified) for that exact reason, -to make themselves feel safe as in saved: as in protected from danger, harm. (in an after-life?)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2020 2:03:46 GMT -5
You may think I’m a head case but once again you offer no evidence or explanation. You merely state what you believe without any supporting evidence. That is the lot of the religious believer. I suspect your thinking on this is as a flawed as your thinking on the nature of God. However I recognise your frustration at being unable to counteract the arguments made. Religious beliefs flourish best when in the company of fellow believers but they tend to wither when subject to scrutiny. Not for nothing the 2x2s refuse to debate their doctrine. Not for nothing there are few professing people here. The TMB is the vine upon which religious beliefs wither which is why the trend is clearly from belief to unbelief here rather than the other way round. Believers have a weak hand and generally play it badly hence they are often found engaging at the bottom of the Pyramid of Debate as you have here. Matt10 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg No. Rather you won’t accept as evidence of God and Jesus what is reasonably presented as evidence: Life itself, creation. Religion, belief in God and the Good The enlightenment and reformation. Government, as expressed in the US constitution: that government should be of the people. You are the one who is polarized, and pounding the table. In the interest of truth, -you say you’re a man of truth, these evidences will be considered. I’d rather be found pounding the table of truth than hiding under it. It’s important than the table of truth is pounded here as there is so much religious disagreement. Not all believers here can be right in their beliefs. But they can all be wrong. I would suggest that it’s much less a case of me not accepting as evidence of God and Jesus that which is reasonably presented and much more a case of no such evidence having been presented. To date all I have seen put forward are religious beliefs and scriptural quotations. If you can show how creation is evidence of a living, resurrected Jesus who is due to return to the earth soon, or how life in the sea is evidence of a God who cares about whether or not we believe in him, then as a man of truth I’ll certainly consider it. If you have truth, facts and evidence on your side, then this is your opportunity to pound them. Matt10
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Post by Grant on Oct 18, 2020 3:54:59 GMT -5
No. Rather you won’t accept as evidence of God and Jesus what is reasonably presented as evidence: Life itself, creation. Religion, belief in God and the Good The enlightenment and reformation. Government, as expressed in the US constitution: that government should be of the people. You are the one who is polarized, and pounding the table. In the interest of truth, -you say you’re a man of truth, these evidences will be considered. I’d rather be found pounding the table of truth than hiding under it. It’s important than the table of truth is pounded here as there is so much religious disagreement. Not all believers here can be right in their beliefs. But they can all be wrong. I would suggest that it’s much less a case of me not accepting as evidence of God and Jesus that which is reasonably presented and much more a case of no such evidence having been presented. To date all I have seen put forward are religious beliefs and scriptural quotations. If you can show how creation is evidence of a living, resurrected Jesus who is due to return to the earth soon, or how life in the sea is evidence of a God who cares about whether or not we believe in him, then as a man of truth I’ll certainly consider it. If you have truth, facts and evidence on your side, then this is your opportunity to pound them. Matt10 To believers the universe and everything in it is evidence that there is something great or greater than us at work out there - call it God if you like. It is not just a religious belief, people since the beginning of time have believed in Gods or spirits of some kind at work. Tell us your answer if you have something better to offer.
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Post by slowtosee on Oct 18, 2020 8:54:38 GMT -5
No. Rather you won’t accept as evidence of God and Jesus what is reasonably presented as evidence: Life itself, creation. Religion, belief in God and the Good The enlightenment and reformation. Government, as expressed in the US constitution: that government should be of the people. You are the one who is polarized, and pounding the table. In the interest of truth, -you say you’re a man of truth, these evidences will be considered. I’d rather be found pounding the table of truth than hiding under it. It’s important than the table of truth is pounded here as there is so much religious disagreement. Not all believers here can be right in their beliefs. But they can all be wrong. I would suggest that it’s much less a case of me not accepting as evidence of God and Jesus that which is reasonably presented and much more a case of no such evidence having been presented. To date all I have seen put forward are religious beliefs and scriptural quotations. If you can show how creation is evidence of a living, resurrected Jesus who is due to return to the earth soon, or how life in the sea is evidence of a God who cares about whether or not we believe in him, then as a man of truth I’ll certainly consider it. If you have truth, facts and evidence on your side, then this is your opportunity to pound them. Matt10 I assume you have considered these five “arguments” for the existence of God ? (The existence of the historical Jesus is generally accepted by most scholars. )- Which I am NOT lol the argument from "first mover"; the argument from causation; the argument from contingency; the argument from degree; the argument from final cause or ends ("teleological argument"). Alvin en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_(Aquinas)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2020 11:27:32 GMT -5
I’d rather be found pounding the table of truth than hiding under it. It’s important than the table of truth is pounded here as there is so much religious disagreement. Not all believers here can be right in their beliefs. But they can all be wrong. I would suggest that it’s much less a case of me not accepting as evidence of God and Jesus that which is reasonably presented and much more a case of no such evidence having been presented. To date all I have seen put forward are religious beliefs and scriptural quotations. If you can show how creation is evidence of a living, resurrected Jesus who is due to return to the earth soon, or how life in the sea is evidence of a God who cares about whether or not we believe in him, then as a man of truth I’ll certainly consider it. If you have truth, facts and evidence on your side, then this is your opportunity to pound them. Matt10 I assume you have considered these five “arguments” for the existence of God ? (The existence of the historical Jesus is generally accepted by most scholars. )- Which I am NOT lol the argument from "first mover"; the argument from causation; the argument from contingency; the argument from degree; the argument from final cause or ends ("teleological argument"). Alvin en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_(Aquinas)You assume correctly. However these are not arguments for the existence of the Christian God. I read them very carefully and saw no mention of the Christian God in them. This is a debate about the Christian God and I note that this is the second response to a post about the Christian God that has failed to make any mention of Him. Matt10
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Post by intelchips on Oct 18, 2020 11:46:35 GMT -5
I assume you have considered these five “arguments” for the existence of God ? (The existence of the historical Jesus is generally accepted by most scholars. )- Which I am NOT lol the argument from "first mover"; the argument from causation; the argument from contingency; the argument from degree; the argument from final cause or ends ("teleological argument"). Alvin en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_(Aquinas)You assume correctly. However these are not arguments for the existence of the Christian God. I read them very carefully and saw no mention of the Christian God in them. This is a debate about the Christian God and I note that this is the second response to a post about the Christian God that has failed to make any mention of Him. Matt10 "(The existence of the historical Jesus is generally accepted by most scholars. )- Which I am NOT lol" I think you will find this is changing. Especial with the verse by verse comparisons of Mark with Plato.
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Post by slowtosee on Oct 18, 2020 12:08:35 GMT -5
I assume you have considered these five “arguments” for the existence of God ? (The existence of the historical Jesus is generally accepted by most scholars. )- Which I am NOT lol the argument from "first mover"; the argument from causation; the argument from contingency; the argument from degree; the argument from final cause or ends ("teleological argument"). Alvin en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_(Aquinas)You assume correctly. However these are not arguments for the existence of the Christian God. I read them very carefully and saw no mention of the Christian God in them. This is a debate about the Christian God and I note that this is the second response to a post about the Christian God that has failed to make any mention of Him. Matt10 Thankyou I am assuming again then , (and I was previously mistaken) , that it is not evidence for God we are talking about , but evidence of the Christian God ? I can relate , and although much evidence is communicated by many helpful authors and thinkers etc , many would answer , not Enough evidence or not good enough evidence . The choice is on us individually to decide . A unsolved mystery , (Oxymoron)Albeit with much evidence , remains a mystery . Edit - like the guy who didn’t believe in chiropractors - “ I stand corrected “ , unsolved mystery is probably not an oxymoron but redundancy ? “I am just small in size” or “large in size” presenting true facts using basic fundamentals of past history that evolved over time and with all your consensus of opinion I smile happily- end of joke In “The case for Christ” lee strobel, presents evidence that was enough for him to Believe in the Christian god. William craig presents evidence along with many many others www.bethinking.org/is-christianity-true/the-evidence-for-christianity Evidence is not proof. Of course , and the evidence provided might not be good “enough” for me and you , but it is there , We get to choose . “The great atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell was once asked what he would say if he found himself standing before God on the judgement day and God asked him, "Why didn’t you believe in Me?" Russell replied, "I would say, ‘Not enough evidence, God! Not enough evidence!'" Alvin
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Post by Dan on Oct 18, 2020 12:36:50 GMT -5
Sad to say that somehow I manage to commit sin even in my sleep, my dreams aren't always G rated. You consider that a sin? I was semi-joking, but lets call it an unconscious sin.
Well, if Jesus did not pay for our debts, nothing else on Earth will suffice, so I certainly feel better knowing I am sanctified through Christ.
Of course it makes you feel better, Dan. That was my point.
People have created all of those stories of "gods" & being "saved" (sanctified) for that exact reason, -to make themselves feel safe as in saved: as in protected from danger, harm. (in an after-life?)
The truth will set you free. Feeling better is not just the release of guilt, its deliverance from eternal death. Stories can be discredited, but the Truth is resilient, which gives it more credibility than fabricated stories.
Extract the miracles, crucifixion, and resurrection of Christ, and your still left with nothing but righteousness and truth.
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Post by slowtosee on Oct 18, 2020 12:39:18 GMT -5
You assume correctly. However these are not arguments for the existence of the Christian God. I read them very carefully and saw no mention of the Christian God in them. This is a debate about the Christian God and I note that this is the second response to a post about the Christian God that has failed to make any mention of Him. Matt10 "(The existence of the historical Jesus is generally accepted by most scholars. )- Which I am NOT lol" I think you will find this is changing. Especial with the verse by verse comparisons of Mark with Plato. Interesting. I suppose for the short span of life I have left on this little circle , that debate will not be settled , so probably go with the view that he existed , which leaves me a choice of believing , either, he was a lying lunatic or he was who he said he was , the Son of God? Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2020 14:34:43 GMT -5
"(The existence of the historical Jesus is generally accepted by most scholars. )- Which I am NOT lol" I think you will find this is changing. Especial with the verse by verse comparisons of Mark with Plato. Interesting. I suppose for the short span of life I have left on this little circle , that debate will not be settled , so probably go with the view that he existed , which leaves me a choice of believing , either, he was a lying lunatic or he was who he said he was , the Son of God? Alvin I have a Christian mate who I’ve known for many years and only once did he ever raise the issue of Christianity with me. And when he did I informed him politely that I no longer believed in the Christian God and had completely rejected the Christianity of my youth. He then hit me with the very same CS Lewis argument that you have referred to here (the Mad, Bad or God argument). The way he put it was that when Jesus said he was the Son of God he was either telling the truth, he was a liar or he was a lunatic. He said that those were the only possible 3 options and asked me which one did I think it was? I think he may have thought that this was such a clever question that it would soon have me reconsidering my non belief. However I simply told him that there was in fact a 4th option which was the option most likely to be true in my view, ie. that Jesus never actually said those words and that the biblical authors had simply made that bit of the bible up - in the same way that the biblical authors had made up the stories about Jesus ascending up to heaven and Lot’s wife turning into a pillar of salt. That swiftly brought an end to the discussion and he has never raised the issue with me again. I suspect that the idea that the bible may not all be true had never occurred to him and he didn’t know how to respond. I guess that if you start with the assumption that the bible is all true it is likely that you will end up a Christian is the same way that if you start with the assumption that the Quran is all true it is likely that you will end up a Muslim. I suspect that it is because most of us started by assuming that what the workers told us was all true that we ended up as 2x2s. I think the moral of the story is don't assume any relgious teaching or book is all true unless you have credible evidence to support it. Matt10
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Post by slowtosee on Oct 18, 2020 14:47:14 GMT -5
“That swiftly brought an end to the discussion and he has never raised the issue with me again. “
Would seem wise then ,for both of you to remain mates to “Never raise the issue again “
Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2020 14:54:37 GMT -5
You assume correctly. However these are not arguments for the existence of the Christian God. I read them very carefully and saw no mention of the Christian God in them. This is a debate about the Christian God and I note that this is the second response to a post about the Christian God that has failed to make any mention of Him. Matt10 Thankyou I am assuming again then , (and I was previously mistaken) , that it is not evidence for God we are talking about , but evidence of the Christian God ? I can relate , and although much evidence is communicated by many helpful authors and thinkers etc , many would answer , not Enough evidence or not good enough evidence . The choice is on us individually to decide . A unsolved mystery , (Oxymoron)Albeit with much evidence , remains a mystery . Edit - like the guy who didn’t believe in chiropractors - “ I stand corrected “ , unsolved mystery is probably not an oxymoron but redundancy ? “I am just small in size” or “large in size” presenting true facts using basic fundamentals of past history that evolved over time and with all your consensus of opinion I smile happily- end of joke In “The case for Christ” lee strobel, presents evidence that was enough for him to Believe in the Christian god. William craig presents evidence along with many many others www.bethinking.org/is-christianity-true/the-evidence-for-christianity Evidence is not proof. Of course , and the evidence provided might not be good “enough” for me and you , but it is there , We get to choose . “The great atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell was once asked what he would say if he found himself standing before God on the judgement day and God asked him, "Why didn’t you believe in Me?" Russell replied, "I would say, ‘Not enough evidence, God! Not enough evidence!'" Alvin Once again you assume correctly. It is evidence for the existence of the Christian God that is the subject of the discussion. If you think the evidence is there then I would invite you to present it. Matt10
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Post by slowtosee on Oct 18, 2020 15:09:34 GMT -5
I could “regurgitate “ all kinds of evidence from the links I provided , Etc which I assume you have already considered and decided “not good enough “ , so it seems for your part , you say “case closed “ - decision made . Fair enough I’ll leave it at that as I have no “new” evidence .
Alvin
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Oct 18, 2020 15:55:09 GMT -5
IMO Aaahhh I am not to sure confessing your sins and actions , faults before others and God works for depression . That it brings peace to your body or soul . Then it sets us free ! From guilt , regrets and depression and so on Nope not for some including me . I cannot embrace that .
However if you were a junkie/alcoholic such as our family , we have chosen to the steps set out by Bill W & Bob . AA .You do a step 4 , where you write down every sin and misdeed in your entire life Then you do a step 5 . You discuss with another addict all you said . After 13 hours , I finally walked in the park with my sponsor . That is where I got peace . Every wrongdoing was laid open during those hours A little way into the walk , I felt peaceful at ease with my sins . They you make amends , you do so if the person you wronged is willing . If not willing you forgive yourself . You cannot carry pain for ever . Depression is a clinical matter . A un-balanced part of your brain chemistry . You can live with it you can rehab a bit . However medication for your serotonin is useful with depression . We do a step 4-5 every year . My oldest did about 17 hours on her first . Thx This is a public service announcement . Depression sucks
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Oct 18, 2020 16:19:36 GMT -5
But then I do come from a totally different world . Not made for this universe or a 2X2
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Post by slowtosee on Oct 18, 2020 16:29:59 GMT -5
But then I do come from a totally different world . Not made for this universe or a 2X2 From my brushes and acquaintanceS with it, “Depression sucks “ is absolutely right . Jordan Peterson talks about it at this link . I understand he is personally recovering from severe depression at this point . m.youtube.com/watch?v=QT2KNvzovHMm.youtube.com/watch?v=dsSV3wVN_yE
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Post by chuck on Oct 18, 2020 16:37:58 GMT -5
Interesting. I suppose for the short span of life I have left on this little circle , that debate will not be settled , so probably go with the view that he existed , which leaves me a choice of believing , either, he was a lying lunatic or he was who he said he was , the Son of God? Alvin I have a Christian mate who I’ve known for many years and only once did he ever raise the issue of Christianity with me. And when he did I informed him politely that I no longer believed in the Christian God and had completely rejected the Christianity of my youth. He then hit me with the very same CS Lewis argument that you have referred to here (the Mad, Bad or God argument). The way he put it was that when Jesus said he was the Son of God he was either telling the truth, he was a liar or he was a lunatic. He said that those were the only possible 3 options and asked me which one did I think it was? I think he may have thought that this was such a clever question that it would soon have me reconsidering my non belief. However I simply told him that there was in fact a 4th option which was the option most likely to be true in my view, ie. that Jesus never actually said those words and that the biblical authors had simply made that bit of the bible up - in the same way that the biblical authors had made up the stories about Jesus ascending up to heaven and Lot’s wife turning into a pillar of salt. That swiftly brought an end to the discussion and he has never raised the issue with me again. I suspect that the idea that the bible may not all be true had never occurred to him and he didn’t know how to respond. I guess that if you start with the assumption that the bible is all true it is likely that you will end up a Christian is the same way that if you start with the assumption that the Quran is all true it is likely that you will end up a Muslim. I suspect that it is because most of us started by assuming that what the workers told us was all true that we ended up as 2x2s. I think the moral of the story is don't assume any relgious teaching or book is all true unless you have credible evidence to support it. Matt10 Have you ever thought about what if the bible is true but the magic(for lack of a better word) is not true but just a vehicle to carry a meaning or a truth through time.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 18, 2020 16:38:30 GMT -5
I’d rather be found pounding the table of truth than hiding under it. It’s important than the table of truth is pounded here as there is so much religious disagreement. Not all believers here can be right in their beliefs. But they can all be wrong. I would suggest that it’s much less a case of me not accepting as evidence of God and Jesus that which is reasonably presented and much more a case of no such evidence having been presented. To date all I have seen put forward are religious beliefs and scriptural quotations. If you can show how creation is evidence of a living, resurrected Jesus who is due to return to the earth soon, or how life in the sea is evidence of a God who cares about whether or not we believe in him, then as a man of truth I’ll certainly consider it. If you have truth, facts and evidence on your side, then this is your opportunity to pound them. Matt10 To believers the universe and everything in it is evidence that there is something great or greater than us at work out there - call it God if you like. It is not just a religious belief, people since the beginning of time have believed in Gods or spirits of some kind at work. Tell us your answer if you have something better to offer. Of course "people since the beginning of time have believed in Gods or spirits of some kind at work." But Enuf, -how do you figure that such beliefs are NOT "just a religious belief?"What else could they be but a religious belief?
definition of religion: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power".Isn't that the same as as your statement of "Gods or spirits of some kind at work?" What else can a belief be but religion that "a living, resurrected Jesus who is due to return to the earth soon,"
Surely you don't believe just because "people have always believed that there have in Gods or spirits " that it is evidence the Jesus will return?
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Oct 18, 2020 16:45:08 GMT -5
I don’t believe in a GOD . Once maybe ! I just cannot imagine a GOD , as I suffered at the hands of 6 offenders , 2X2’s since two years old . My great uncle ! Whom has passed long ago . Till I was excommunicated . Where was God ? I can believe in a rock if I wish . I can see a rock . IMO
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 18, 2020 17:58:35 GMT -5
I was semi-joking, but lets call it an unconscious sin. I call it one of our god-given pleasure incentives.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 18, 2020 18:43:27 GMT -5
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Post by slowtosee on Oct 18, 2020 19:07:32 GMT -5
You a precious lady , dmmichgood.
Alvin
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