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Post by learning on Sept 25, 2020 10:10:33 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I've been on here. Some things appear to not have changed much... (I'm glad to see that review005 hasn't returned!!! ) Just wanted to throw a thought out for consideration and discussion. I've been reading about root causes of guilt & shame and how guilt & shame can cause depression, anxiety and other mental health challenges. I noticed that some of the root causes for guilt & shame are some of the very themes taught to me as necessary understandings of one's own condition as pre-conditions for accepting salvation in the Truth. "I have no inherent value", "I am not worthy", "I have transgressed", "I cannot attain unto my ideal self", etc are thoughts that all directly contribute to undermining our mental health. And yet, these are the very underpinnings of our condition before Christ. I was in countless meetings where these phrases were uttered in a very emotional state, meant to describe our condition and to build thanks for our Savior. I've always wondered if there is a higher percentage of depression amongst people in the Truth as opposed to other Christian faiths, and compared to non-Christian worship traditions. This seems to support that idea.
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Post by nathan on Sept 25, 2020 12:11:35 GMT -5
Confessing of your sins, faults before others and God are good for the souls, it brings peace to body and souls and it sets us free from guilt, regrets, depression and so on.
Humans, Christians, 2x2s make too MANY mistakes in life, it's good to KNOW who and where to let go off the guilt and shame and to have NEW DAY! Each morning.
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Post by Lee on Sept 25, 2020 13:53:03 GMT -5
I’m learning a new trade in the field (HVAC) after some class time and I’m finding it extraordinarily challenging. I can’t go a day without making mistakes, and my habit is to self criticize. Some kid I work with (a real nice kid) said, “Don’t be so hard on yourself”. I said that would take all the fun out of it.
Later we drove back to the shop and listened to Sproul expound on the disciples’ response to Jesus after he calmed the storm, ”What manner of man is this”? That, rather than simply being grateful for the storms abatement. Sproul said the natural man is more afraid of holiness than the weather. He then reflected on one of his 4.0 students who flunked a test on purpose . . . “ I couldn’t get a date, I was intimidating to every guy”.
We can always find performers below us and above us. It’s sad though when cults and sects and incompetent theologians counsel us to feel bad for being less than perfect.
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Post by Annan on Sept 25, 2020 15:22:21 GMT -5
Confessing of your sins, faults before others and God are good for the souls, it brings peace to body and souls and it sets us free from guilt, regrets, depression and so on. Humans, Christians, 2x2s make too MANY mistakes in life, it's good to KNOW who and where to let go off the guilt and shame and to have NEW DAY! Each morning. *** Doesn't erase the fact that you are a plagiarist and a liar.
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Post by Dan on Sept 25, 2020 15:36:50 GMT -5
Christ is not our accuser, "The accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night" (Revelation 12:10), and Jesus told the woman caught in adultery that he wasn't her accuser (John 8:11). So 'guilt' or religions laying a guilt trip on people would impose the curse of the law, which Jesus removed. The gospel is not condemning, but good news. "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). Guilt and shame effects our conscience, but it should guide us, not depress us. If we aren't ashamed of our wrong doings, what's to prevent us from repeat performances? Feeling bad about screwing-up is what separates us from sociopaths.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 25, 2020 16:45:51 GMT -5
Christ is not our accuser, "The accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night" (Revelation 12:10), and Jesus told the woman caught in adultery that he wasn't her accuser (John 8:11). So 'guilt' or religions laying a guilt trip on people would impose the curse of the law, which Jesus removed. The gospel is not condemning, but good news. "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). Guilt and shame effects our conscience, but it should guide us, not depress us. If we aren't ashamed of our wrong doings, what's to prevent us from repeat performances? Feeling bad about screwing-up is what separates us from sociopaths. The problem is that religions of nearly all brands, -not just 2x2's nor Christianity in all of it's various denominations, -but religious belief systems from early mankind rests on the fact that we are aware that we do make mistakes and errors; -actual or perceived.
But just as importantly is that we, -unlike most other living beings, -we have the ability to remember our actions in the past and because we can remember we also wonder if what we had done in the past is affecting what is happening to us at present.
Of course there were always some men who quickly realized that by working with those errors & mistakes that control of the group could be possible. Sometimes it was good for the group, -sometimes it was just a matter of control.
Thus was born a whole system of gods, priests, rules and documents; -all according to when you lived & where you lived in the world.
Knowing those underpinnings of why we believe as we do helps us understand ourselves much better.
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Post by Grant on Sept 25, 2020 20:43:15 GMT -5
There is much written on the postive effects that religion including Christianity has on an individuals's wellbeing. There is a difference between religion which enchances a person's wellbeing and that which suppresses it.
Look up the many articles on it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 26, 2020 0:40:36 GMT -5
There is much written on the postive effects that religion including Christianity has on an individuals's wellbeing. There is a difference between religion which enchances a person's wellbeing and that which suppresses it. Look up the many articles on it. Thank you, enuf.
I have seen many of those articles. I understand what you are saying.
However, I was trying to speak to the reasons that we believe in something and react as we do. As I said "we are aware that we do make mistakes and errors;" -actual ones and sometimes we just perceive them to be our fault.
From early mankind onward we had the ability to remember our actions in the past which then caused us to wonder if what we had done in the past was affecting what is happening to us at the present. In other words we wondered if what we had done in the past that caused this thing that was happening NOW! Was it our fault? (helped along to believe that by people in power.)
That gave rise to a whole system of gods, priests, rules and stories that specifically developed to try to explain & interpret all of those ideas we had.
They differed according to the time you lived & where you lived in the world.
It isn't just the 2x2's nor Christianity, -but it is all religious systems.
By not understanding that there were multitude of reasons why things happened, -both good & bad, -actually had nothing to do with our own actions, we never-the-less took it upon ourselves to be the cause.
Then of course, -for the sake of needing some kind of peace of mind, - we also needed something or someone to intercede on our behalf and absolve us from our mistakes.
Knowing those underpinnings of why we believe as we do helps us understand ourselves much better.
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Post by Lee on Sept 26, 2020 8:55:56 GMT -5
I think it remains to be proved that the impetus for every religion was diabolical, that it was an attempt to deceive and to control others, even if in instances this happened (happens). A better theory of everything is that inside each one of us is the witness of the Holy Spirit, that compels us to assemble in socially benevolent ways that sometimes transcends our immediate needs. And as we may be led along a dark path, He literally summons us to reject our vices.
A theory of everything that only entertains a nemesis (controlling, ill motived people) and no protagonist (good people or figures who convey or bring goodness) does not correspond to the everyday world we live in, and most likely the past.
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Post by Gene on Sept 26, 2020 11:09:03 GMT -5
Christ is not our accuser, "The accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night" (Revelation 12:10), and Jesus told the woman caught in adultery that he wasn't her accuser (John 8:11). So 'guilt' or religions laying a guilt trip on people would impose the curse of the law, which Jesus removed. The gospel is not condemning, but good news. "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). Guilt and shame effects our conscience, but it should guide us, not depress us. If we aren't ashamed of our wrong doings, what's to prevent us from repeat performances? Feeling bad about screwing-up is what separates us from sociopaths. A foundation point of the gospel is that you and I are inherently flawed; so much so that a holy god cannot bear to be in our presence, and so we are banished from him now and for all eternity*. If that's not condemning, I don't know what is.
(*unless we tell him we believe in and thank him for his gift of salvation through the murder of his son. Which brings up another point, but I'll save that one for another time. Hint: It has to do with "gifts with strings attached" - normally the sign of an insecure and begrudging gift-giver. Okay, so I didn't save it for another time )
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Post by Lee on Sept 26, 2020 12:44:32 GMT -5
American politics are divided by a God conception that categorizes him as an oppressor versus a savior. The former admits neither of our creation, nor of our evolution.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 26, 2020 16:38:15 GMT -5
I think it remains to be proved that the impetus for every religion was diabolical, that it was an attempt to deceive and to control others, even if in instances this happened (happens). A better theory of everything is that inside each one of us is the witness of the Holy Spirit, that compels us to assemble in socially benevolent ways that sometimes transcends our immediate needs. And as we may be led along a dark path, He literally summons us to reject our vices. A theory of everything that only entertains a nemesis (controlling, ill motived people) and no protagonist (good people or figures who convey or bring goodness) does not correspond to the everyday world we live in, and most likely the past. As we began to form communities we realized that in order to not only survive but prosper, -to flourish & to grow strong and healthy, that we needed to work together.
That required our being able to trust one another. "to treat our neighbor as we would want to be treated." (sound familiar?)
Surely our common sense would have told us that! Why would it require for any "spirit, " -Holy or otherwise, be needed to realize that?
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Post by Lee on Sept 26, 2020 17:11:48 GMT -5
I think my version of events offers a clearer picture of who we are and how we actually relate to one another. Yours is weighted in utility, which readily lends itself to utilitarianism.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2020 18:21:08 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I've been on here. Some things appear to not have changed much... (I'm glad to see that review005 hasn't returned!!! ) Just wanted to throw a thought out for consideration and discussion. I've been reading about root causes of guilt & shame and how guilt & shame can cause depression, anxiety and other mental health challenges. I noticed that some of the root causes for guilt & shame are some of the very themes taught to me as necessary understandings of one's own condition as pre-conditions for accepting salvation in the Truth. "I have no inherent value", "I am not worthy", "I have transgressed", "I cannot attain unto my ideal self", etc are thoughts that all directly contribute to undermining our mental health. And yet, these are the very underpinnings of our condition before Christ. I was in countless meetings where these phrases were uttered in a very emotional state, meant to describe our condition and to build thanks for our Savior. I've always wondered if there is a higher percentage of depression amongst people in the Truth as opposed to other Christian faiths, and compared to non-Christian worship traditions. This seems to support that idea. This post is spot on! I as well have found it peculiar how we were to believe we were simultaneously wretched miserable sinners, who were so terrible God had to kill his perfect Son just to forgive us AND special vessels made in God's image shaped by his hands and the objects of his divine love. That's a tough sell. Probably why it was always so important to bring you children to the meetings. Children trust adults... let's use it against them! Confusing at the very least - resulting in joyful depression and proud worthlessness.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 26, 2020 18:23:37 GMT -5
I think my version of events offers a clearer picture of who we are and how we actually relate to one another. Your is weighted in utility, which readily lends itself over to utilitarianism. OK, Lee, but has your version been very effective in the past?
Shouldn't you be asking yourself if having to have a "Holy Spirit" inside each one of us which "compels" us to do right towards others, that maybe you need a different vision?
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Post by Lee on Sept 26, 2020 19:15:16 GMT -5
I like my version. It puts to bed the oppressor/victim narrative/filter you leftists are forcing, as well as the reductive physical interpretation of mind. It places human behavior and mind in a place we can call “free“. He is free to express himself as he composes the particulars he is made of: body and soul, ever recreating over the expanse of time.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 26, 2020 22:04:45 GMT -5
I like my version. It puts to bed the oppressor/victim narrative/filter you leftists are forcing, as well as the reductive physical interpretation of mind. It places human behavior and mind in a place we can call “free“. He is free to express himself as he composes the particulars he is made of: body and soul, ever recreating over the expanse of time. Of course you would prefer your version.
What it "frees" you from is having to accept your own "human behavior" as your own responsibility. It also "frees" your "mind" from having to bother to "filter" your ideas & evaluate what your responsibilities are to the others living along side of you.
That is why people do so love to have a god to exonerate their motives & actions.
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Post by Dan on Sept 26, 2020 22:11:42 GMT -5
Christ is not our accuser, "The accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night" (Revelation 12:10), and Jesus told the woman caught in adultery that he wasn't her accuser (John 8:11). So 'guilt' or religions laying a guilt trip on people would impose the curse of the law, which Jesus removed. The gospel is not condemning, but good news. "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). Guilt and shame effects our conscience, but it should guide us, not depress us. If we aren't ashamed of our wrong doings, what's to prevent us from repeat performances? Feeling bad about screwing-up is what separates us from sociopaths. A foundation point of the gospel is that you and I are inherently flawed; so much so that a holy god cannot bear to be in our presence, and so we are banished from him now and for all eternity*. If that's not condemning, I don't know what is.
(*unless we tell him we believe in and thank him for his gift of salvation through the murder of his son. Which brings up another point, but I'll save that one for another time. Hint: It has to do with "gifts with strings attached" - normally the sign of an insecure and begrudging gift-giver. Okay, so I didn't save it for another time )
We weren't originally created flawed, disobedience to God made us that way. God separated himself from sin, but He inevitably became flesh and bore our inequities, and now those who accept Him are no longer flawed. That's salvation, not condemnation. That's not a gift with strings attached, we freely chose the knowledge of evil knowing full well that it brought death, just as anyone can freely choose life through Christ, who was not a begrudging gift giver, but a willing sacrifice for our transgressions. That's how I look at it.
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Post by Lee on Sept 26, 2020 22:39:48 GMT -5
I like my version. It puts to bed the oppressor/victim narrative/filter you leftists are forcing, as well as the reductive physical interpretation of mind. It places human behavior and mind in a place we can call “free“. He is free to express himself as he composes the particulars he is made of: body and soul, ever recreating over the expanse of time. Of course you would prefer your version.
What it "frees" you from is having to accept your own "human behavior" as your own responsibility. It also "frees" your "mind" from having to bother to "filter" your ideas & evaluate what your responsibilities are to the others living along side of you.
That is why people do so love to have a god to exonerate their motives & actions.You have it backwards. Leftists say, “I can’t help what I am, my genes made me do it”. “I can’t help what I am, my environment made me do it”. “I can’t help how I feel, you made me feel like this.” But Christians plead none of these as absolute excuses, even while taking these factors into consideration as we refine our walk with God. The freedom I’m talking about is the freedom from relativism, or no positive standard at all. I’m saying Gods standard is present in every one of us, if we will listen.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 26, 2020 23:27:23 GMT -5
Of course you would prefer your version.
What it "frees" you from is having to accept your own "human behavior" as your own responsibility. It also "frees" your "mind" from having to bother to "filter" your ideas & evaluate what your responsibilities are to the others living along side of you.
That is why people do so love to have a god to exonerate their motives & actions. You have it backwards. Leftists say, “I can’t help what I am, my genes made me do it”. “I can’t help what I am, my environment made me do it”. “I can’t help how I feel, you made me do it.” But Christians plead none of these as absolute excuses, even while taking this factors into consideration as we refine our walk with God. The freedom I’m talking about is the freedom from relativism, or no positive standard at all. I’m saying Gods standard is present in every one of us, if we will listen. Lee, -are you sure you even know what a you are talking about?
What you are claiming has nothing to do with Leftists! It has to do with how you treat other people!
You seem to need to put people into derogatory boxes so you can ignore the problems they face, sometimes on a daily basis, -because you don't have their particular problem.
By your doing that, you can then denounce them with impunity and have no feeling of empathy for them so that you don't have to personally or otherwise do anything at all to mitigate their circumstances!
Yet, -at the same time you claim a belief in a "god, -yet you ignore the commands of that god.
(Jeremiah 22:3) 'Thus says the LORD, "Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor."
(Isaiah 1:17) Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.
GOD’S INJUNCTION TO CARE FOR THE LESS FORTUNATE,
Good night, Lee.
Sleep well.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 26, 2020 23:30:54 GMT -5
A foundation point of the gospel is that you and I are inherently flawed; so much so that a holy god cannot bear to be in our presence, and so we are banished from him now and for all eternity*. If that's not condemning, I don't know what is. (*unless we tell him we believe in and thank him for his gift of salvation through the murder of his son. Which brings up another point, but I'll save that one for another time. Hint: It has to do with "gifts with strings attached" - normally the sign of an insecure and begrudging gift-giver. Okay, so I didn't save it for another time ) We weren't originally created flawed, disobedience to God made us that way. God separated himself from sin, but He inevitably became flesh and bore our inequities, and now those who accept Him are no longer flawed. That's salvation, not condemnation. That's not a gift with strings attached, we freely chose the knowledge of evil knowing full well that it brought death, just as anyone can freely choose life through Christ, who was not a begrudging gift giver, but a willing sacrifice for our transgressions. That's how I look at it.
This is really weird stuff, you know.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2020 2:25:54 GMT -5
Of course you would prefer your version.
What it "frees" you from is having to accept your own "human behavior" as your own responsibility. It also "frees" your "mind" from having to bother to "filter" your ideas & evaluate what your responsibilities are to the others living along side of you.
That is why people do so love to have a god to exonerate their motives & actions. You have it backwards. Leftists say, “I can’t help what I am, my genes made me do it”. “I can’t help what I am, my environment made me do it”. “I can’t help how I feel, you made me feel like this.” But Christians plead none of these as absolute excuses, even while taking these factors into consideration as we refine our walk with God. The freedom I’m talking about is the freedom from relativism, or no positive standard at all. I’m saying Gods standard is present in every one of us, if we will listen. God’s standard is not present in everyone. God’s standard is a figment of your imagination. What you perceive as God’s standard is actually your own standard which you have conveniently attributed to God. It is no different to the mind of God where believers attribute to God what is in their mind and then claim that they know the mind of God. You can listen as intently as you like but if you do not believe in God you will never hear him because God cannot speak if he isn’t there. Anyone who has ever discussed the mind of God with believers won’t fail to have grasped the irony that the mind of God inevitably reflects the mind of those who claim to know what the mind of God is. You can pick any subject, sex, marriage, drinking alcohol, having a television and you can be sure that God’s mind will mirror the mind of the person telling you what the mind of God is. People say God is great but the only thing great about the Christian God is that he can always be relied upon to agree with you. For years here I have tried to determine from believers here what God’s views are on certain things but to no avail. If you were to listen to believers you would soon find that God has as many different views as there are believers on anything. The idea that believers are taught by one Holy Spirit is clearly a delusion, a delusion brought about by a bit too much religious conditioning. I have spent years looking for any sign that believers here possess the Holy Spirit and have found none. There must be a very large bushel around here somewhere which it is kept hidden under. Matt10
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Sept 27, 2020 4:30:46 GMT -5
It's been a long time since I've been on here. Some things appear to not have changed much... (I'm glad to see that review005 hasn't returned!!! ) Just wanted to throw a thought out for consideration and discussion. I've been reading about root causes of guilt & shame and how guilt & shame can cause depression, anxiety and other mental health challenges. I noticed that some of the root causes for guilt & shame are some of the very themes taught to me as necessary understandings of one's own condition as pre-conditions for accepting salvation in the Truth. "I have no inherent value", "I am not worthy", "I have transgressed", "I cannot attain unto my ideal self", etc are thoughts that all directly contribute to undermining our mental health. And yet, these are the very underpinnings of our condition before Christ. I was in countless meetings where these phrases were uttered in a very emotional state, meant to describe our condition and to build thanks for our Savior. I've always wondered if there is a higher percentage of depression amongst people in the Truth as opposed to other Christian faiths, and compared to non-Christian worship traditions. This seems to support that idea. This post is spot on! I as well have found it peculiar how we were to believe we were simultaneously wretched miserable sinners, who were so terrible God had to kill his perfect Son just to forgive us AND special vessels made in God's image shaped by his hands and the objects of his divine love. That's a tough sell. Probably why it was always so important to bring you children to the meetings. Children trust adults... let's use it against them! Confusing at the very least - resulting in joyful depression and proud worthlessness. I am glad I came to understand that our Creator loves us and wants us to live with Him in His Kingdom forever where there is no evil, brokenness or death – features of our current existence. So, he sent His Son as an act of divine love to deal with those problems and to provide us with a certain hope that one day our bodies will indeed be resurrected and made new in His eternal Kingdom. For me that is a source of both hope and joy. I must admit I didn't have a lot of hope or joy when I was in meetings - there was quite a focus on not being good enough which was depressing. But it was life-changing when I realised that it was not about my righteousness - but all about Christ's righteousness. And it continues to be a real source of joy and hope, when I see people regularly put their trust in Christ and speak of Him as Lord and Saviour.
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Post by Gene on Sept 27, 2020 5:13:46 GMT -5
A foundation point of the gospel is that you and I are inherently flawed; so much so that a holy god cannot bear to be in our presence, and so we are banished from him now and for all eternity*. If that's not condemning, I don't know what is.
(*unless we tell him we believe in and thank him for his gift of salvation through the murder of his son. Which brings up another point, but I'll save that one for another time. Hint: It has to do with "gifts with strings attached" - normally the sign of an insecure and begrudging gift-giver. Okay, so I didn't save it for another time )
We weren't originally created flawed, disobedience to God made us that way. God separated himself from sin, but He inevitably became flesh and bore our inequities, and now those who accept Him are no longer flawed. That's salvation, not condemnation. That's not a gift with strings attached, we freely chose the knowledge of evil knowing full well that it brought death, just as anyone can freely choose life through Christ, who was not a begrudging gift giver, but a willing sacrifice for our transgressions. That's how I look at it.
I understand. Thank you for the response.
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Post by Lee on Sept 27, 2020 5:44:18 GMT -5
You have it backwards. Leftists say, “I can’t help what I am, my genes made me do it”. “I can’t help what I am, my environment made me do it”. “I can’t help how I feel, you made me feel like this.” But Christians plead none of these as absolute excuses, even while taking these factors into consideration as we refine our walk with God. The freedom I’m talking about is the freedom from relativism, or no positive standard at all. I’m saying Gods standard is present in every one of us, if we will listen. God’s standard is not present in everyone. God’s standard is a figment of your imagination. What you perceive as God’s standard is actually your own standard which you have conveniently attributed to God. It is no different to the mind of God where believers attribute to God what is in their mind and then claim that they know the mind of God. You can listen as intently as you like but if you do not believe in God you will never hear him because God cannot speak if he isn’t there. Anyone who has ever discussed the mind of God with believers won’t fail to have grasped the irony that the mind of God inevitably reflects the mind of those who claim to know what the mind of God is. You can pick any subject, sex, marriage, drinking alcohol, having a television and you can be sure that God’s mind will mirror the mind of the person telling you what the mind of God is. People say God is great but the only thing great about the Christian God is that he can always be relied upon to agree with you. For years here I have tried to determine from believers here what God’s views are on certain things but to no avail. If you were to listen to believers you would soon find that God has as many different views as there are believers on anything. The idea that believers are taught by one Holy Spirit is clearly a delusion, a delusion brought about by a bit too much religious conditioning. I have spent years looking for any sign that believers here possess the Holy Spirit and have found none. There must be a very large bushel around here somewhere which it is kept hidden under. Matt10 Why do atheists talk about the concept of reciprocity then, if treating others like you would want to be treated weren't something that could be conceived by all? My position is you couldn't begin to talk of such a consensus even if it were arrived at by utility, if the very idea of benevolent behavior and relationship weren't something roughly conceivable by all in the first place. And that requires the presence or manifestation of an immutable voice within every psyche. No people do disagree at points. But it's my belief the foundation of civilization consists of essentials good intentioned people will agree on.
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Post by Lee on Sept 27, 2020 5:55:00 GMT -5
You have it backwards. Leftists say, “I can’t help what I am, my genes made me do it”. “I can’t help what I am, my environment made me do it”. “I can’t help how I feel, you made me do it.” But Christians plead none of these as absolute excuses, even while taking this factors into consideration as we refine our walk with God. The freedom I’m talking about is the freedom from relativism, or no positive standard at all. I’m saying Gods standard is present in every one of us, if we will listen. Lee, -are you sure you even know what a you are talking about?
What you are claiming has nothing to do with Leftists! It has to do with how you treat other people!
You seem to need to put people into derogatory boxes so you can ignore the problems they face, sometimes on a daily basis, -because you don't have their particular problem.
By your doing that, you can then denounce them with impunity and have no feeling of empathy for them so that you don't have to personally or otherwise do anything at all to mitigate their circumstances!
Yet, -at the same time you claim a belief in a "god, -yet you ignore the commands of that god.
(Jeremiah 22:3) 'Thus says the LORD, "Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor."
(Isaiah 1:17) Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.
GOD’S INJUNCTION TO CARE FOR THE LESS FORTUNATE,
Good night, Lee.
Sleep well.
I think you want to judge me. I am concerned for the poor. I'm an advocate of incentivizing work with fair pay, for recognizing our spiritual connection to the land, a point sorely missed by modern city builders, and the spreading of the good news generally. The good news cleanses the mind, revitalizes the weary, gives indispensible wisdom and hope, and offers balm for the vissitudes of life.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2020 11:02:50 GMT -5
This post is spot on! I as well have found it peculiar how we were to believe we were simultaneously wretched miserable sinners, who were so terrible God had to kill his perfect Son just to forgive us AND special vessels made in God's image shaped by his hands and the objects of his divine love. That's a tough sell. Probably why it was always so important to bring you children to the meetings. Children trust adults... let's use it against them! Confusing at the very least - resulting in joyful depression and proud worthlessness. I am glad I came to understand that our Creator loves us and wants us to live with Him in His Kingdom forever where there is no evil, brokenness or death – features of our current existence. So, he sent His Son as an act of divine love to deal with those problems and to provide us with a certain hope that one day our bodies will indeed be resurrected and made new in His eternal Kingdom. For me that is a source of both hope and joy. I must admit I didn't have a lot of hope or joy when I was in meetings - there was quite a focus on not being good enough which was depressing. But it was life-changing when I realised that it was not about my righteousness - but all about Christ's righteousness. And it continues to be a real source of joy and hope, when I see people regularly put their trust in Christ and speak of Him as Lord and Saviour. This is the best defense by far from a philosophical and just view, of why Jesus MUST be seen as God.
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Post by Dan on Sept 27, 2020 11:55:59 GMT -5
You have it backwards. Leftists say, “I can’t help what I am, my genes made me do it”. “I can’t help what I am, my environment made me do it”. “I can’t help how I feel, you made me feel like this.” But Christians plead none of these as absolute excuses, even while taking these factors into consideration as we refine our walk with God. The freedom I’m talking about is the freedom from relativism, or no positive standard at all. I’m saying Gods standard is present in every one of us, if we will listen.
Christians often say; "I can't help it, the devil made me do it" We weren't originally created flawed, disobedience to God made us that way. God separated himself from sin, but He inevitably became flesh and bore our inequities, and now those who accept Him are no longer flawed. That's salvation, not condemnation. That's not a gift with strings attached, we freely chose the knowledge of evil knowing full well that it brought death, just as anyone can freely choose life through Christ, who was not a begrudging gift giver, but a willing sacrifice for our transgressions. That's how I look at it.
This is really weird stuff, you know.
What can I say, I'm a weird guy
<abbr class="o-timestamp time" data-timestamp="1601191554000" title="Sept 27, 2020 2:25:54 GMT -5">Sept 27, 2020 2:25:54 GMT -5</abbr> matt10 said: God’s standard is not present in everyone. God’s standard is a figment of your imagination. What you perceive as God’s standard is actually your own standard which you have conveniently attributed to God. It is no different to the mind of God where believers attribute to God what is in their mind and then claim that they know the mind of God. You can listen as intently as you like but if you do not believe in God you will never hear him because God cannot speak if he isn’t there. Anyone who has ever discussed the mind of God with believers won’t fail to have grasped the irony that the mind of God inevitably reflects the mind of those who claim to know what the mind of God is. You can pick any subject, sex, marriage, drinking alcohol, having a television and you can be sure that God’s mind will mirror the mind of the person telling you what the mind of God is. People say God is great but the only thing great about the Christian God is that he can always be relied upon to agree with you. For years here I have tried to determine from believers here what God’s views are on certain things but to no avail. If you were to listen to believers you would soon find that God has as many different views as there are believers on anything. The idea that believers are taught by one Holy Spirit is clearly a delusion, a delusion brought about by a bit too much religious conditioning. I have spent years looking for any sign that believers here possess the Holy Spirit and have found none. There must be a very large bushel around here somewhere which it is kept hidden under. Matt10
I personally believe the Holy Spirit permeates the earth, every one at sometime has an unction from the HS (1 John 2:20-27). That's why we all inherently know right from wrong and will be judged without excuse. This doesn't mean that everyone is anointed with the HS or that it dwells with everyone, but only that it initiates a divine calling to all.
God's standards are His laws, e.g; "Thou shalt not murder". I believe it is present in everyone's consciousness, there's no confusion or misperceptions about those fundamentals, but that is not to say that some wouldn't misconstrue the simple truth to mean something other than what it does.
The disciples were constantly asking questions, no one is smart enough to know the mind of God. Jesus said he would send the Comforter to bring all things to remembrance, that's how we got the new testament. I doubt that our standards (minds) are a reflection of what we think God ought to be, but our thoughts are adjusted to understand who God actually is, His Living Word eliminated confusion. An example is when Jesus said, "Of a truth I say to you, that this poor widow has cast in more than they all" (Luke 21:3). Most modern preachers wouldn't illuminate a person throwing 2 mites into the collection plate.
God's mind does not mirror ours, its vice-versa. The bible is clear about subjects like sex, marriage, alcohol, etc.. And the bible is God's views, there's nothing delusional about it. The HS dwells with those who accept, believe, and embrace the Word of God. No one has all the answers (save one), its a constant learning and growing experience.
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