Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 18:44:51 GMT -5
Wally,Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Magp[e that had to do with taxes as i pointed out and has nothing to do with providing financial statements....
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magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
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Post by magpies39plus on Jun 13, 2020 18:53:00 GMT -5
I think you might find it is more to do with legal issues. I heard some time ago that DL the now married ex overseer had asked a Barrister to sort out financial activities. The Trust Fund was also under review. Of course they were trying to stop the chance of litigation and having to pay out compensation. They realised they could be vulnerable and needed to become invisible to " We are not an Organisation" status. Clever trick that has always been used by 2x2's as an escape from any responsibilities. You may recall that Jerome Frandle came out to Victorian Conventions a few years ago, and no doubt briefed DL. Jerome had a lot of experience in trying to make the organisation invisible. It is definitely to do with potential compensation payouts. I am aware of some lawyers that were circling it. After the 60M program went to air a number who were representing victims within the 2x2 church contacted me. For transparency, I also made senior workers aware that people would make claims. There are hundreds of victims of Child Sexual Abuse within the 2x2 church in Australia (a fair number committed by workers). Many would prefer an apology from the ministry on behalf of workers and elders who have sexually abused minors within the church. I have heard that there is little intention to deal with past cases so an apology does not appear to be on the horizon. As a result, pressure will continue to be applied at every level. If people preach repentance from sins, it is pointless if they don't practise it. Jesus spoke to the people and his disciples about the Pharisees (Matthew 23:3): "So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 20:04:26 GMT -5
Magpie "The Truth" have always dodged the truth. You and I have seen plenty of that. They have always been good at it, but now they need a Barrister to help them.
They have been warned, so if they continue that way there are ways and means to make them take notice. If they continue not to listen, it is at their own peril.
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janj
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Post by janj on Jun 13, 2020 20:18:16 GMT -5
Christian Conventions CHARITY STATUS revoked' Two lines of reason spreading. One .Like when Christian Assemblies got adverse publicity about their Lawyer stealing some of the fortune earned from the sale of their Dandenong Convention grounds,they cancelled that name and were able to say we are not the Christian Assemblies, Now they are trying this again?? Two. The Charity was non-active to long,this being the most logical?? Three. Gives the flock another reason not to get involved in caring for the poor and needy,doesn't it?? As that Senior Worker Walter Pickering explained"That is not our concern,it is why you pay your taxes". In hindsite not one of us including "me" did not did not challenge him. We feared the Workers,because if you challenged one,you would be spoken of as unwilling,next you would be ostrasized, the common term put out of fellowship. In correct explaination of that,"if you were kicked out of the 2x2s you were pointed to the gates of HELL". Sort of a cruel sad experience for so many over the Century+. Hasn't it?? Magpie Actually Magpie,'giving' is a personal thing.It has nothing to do with a church or what group you belong to -it can be done quietly, discreetly and anonymously. You seem to think it has to be done under the church banner, on show for all the world to see. You are judging here and you actually have no idea what some people may give to charity because they do it quietly without of a lot of pomp.
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janj
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Post by janj on Jun 13, 2020 20:34:33 GMT -5
That attitude that you speak of happening many years ago is definately wrong IMO. I personally feel a sense of appreciation, having done research on my family to read my great grandparents were Salvation Army. The newspaper articles on their deaths (within 2 days of each other), referred to Sister Sarah and Brother Henry, their Christian lives, their values & care in the community for those less fortunate than themselves. Hi Olea, aren't you saying the same as magpie. He's praising the good works of the Salvation army comparing it to the 2x2s who didn't give them a penny. How do you know he didnt give $000s to ??..crippled children the next day. There are certainly charities I wont give to (World Vision is one) because of their administration. We cant give to all charities a d actually we are allowed to choose who and why. I will defend the kindness and compassion of many of the 2x2s. What I read about here is definitely not what I have witnessed. My parents were loved and cared for(as were all the elderly/ needy in that area) in an amazing way by their 2x2 community.The rest home my mother was in constantly told us of her wonderfully caring friends. I witnessed this when I was growing up too. Many here are quick to generalize and judge.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 13, 2020 20:41:47 GMT -5
Christian Conventions CHARITY STATUS revoked' Two lines of reason spreading. One .Like when Christian Assemblies got adverse publicity about their Lawyer stealing some of the fortune earned from the sale of their Dandenong Convention grounds,they cancelled that name and were able to say we are not the Christian Assemblies, Now they are trying this again?? Two. The Charity was non-active to long,this being the most logical?? Three. Gives the flock another reason not to get involved in caring for the poor and needy,doesn't it?? As that Senior Worker Walter Pickering explained"That is not our concern,it is why you pay your taxes". In hindsite not one of us including "me" did not did not challenge him. We feared the Workers,because if you challenged one,you would be spoken of as unwilling,next you would be ostrasized, the common term put out of fellowship. In correct explaination of that,"if you were kicked out of the 2x2s you were pointed to the gates of HELL". Sort of a cruel sad experience for so many over the Century+. Hasn't it?? Magpie Actually Magpie,'giving' is a personal thing.It has nothing to do with a church or what group you belong to -it can be done quietly, discreetly and anonymously. You seem to think it has to be done under the church banner, on show for all the world to see. You are judging here and you actually have no idea what some people may give to charity because they do it quietly without of a lot of pomp. I agree with you. Too much "charity" is given for purposes of personal recognition and denominational promotion.
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Post by speak on Jun 13, 2020 20:46:20 GMT -5
You're right, not so smart Speak as usual you offer nothing to the conversation. If you added something other than jibes we might actually learn something. I don't offer anything to people who write so much poop.
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Post by speak on Jun 13, 2020 20:55:22 GMT -5
I smile to myself when 2x2's say we should be doing things the same as the era around 30AD. They seem to ignore the fact it is now 2020, and times change, that affect lifestyle. Laws change, society standards change, technology changes and of course there are so many other factors that bring about change. They accept that the kit for a Worker now is Smart Phone, Laptop, Credit Card, Bank Account, Car, Passport and Tooth Brush. Christ had none of that, well maybe the Toothbrush. Not that we expect them to get around on their Ass the way Christ did. It makes sense to use things that help to make life easier. But then don't say Christ didn't provide financial statements, so we won't. It is expected in this day and age, keeps people honest. Recently someone used my Credit card number to spend $1200 at an Apple store in America. I was able to prove to the Bank that it was not me and the transaction was cancelled. Just imagine if the bank refused to provide statements, I would never have known about that corruption. Financial statements help prevent corruption. You need checks and balances in place. Reluctantly 2x2's have taken action re CSA, not enough but at least it is a start. The same thing is required for financial reporting. No need to remind people as to what happened in Alberta,it has been well documented. I assure you there have been many other undetected instances of the same thing. Of course we will hear, "There are always bad apples" or "They are only human". Not good enough, you need checks and balances in place to stop apples going rotten, or people being irresponsible humans. How could Jesus have had Smart Phone, Laptop, Credit Card, Bank Account, Car, Passport and Tooth Brush.? Our bank statements would have nothing to do with you or any other nosy parker for that matter. I could bet that you would not share your statements with any Tom, Dick or Harry or want them to know anything about you finances.
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Post by speak on Jun 13, 2020 20:56:23 GMT -5
Wally,Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Magp[e Who's today's Caesar?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 21:00:44 GMT -5
Hi Olea, aren't you saying the same as magpie. He's praising the good works of the Salvation army comparing it to the 2x2s who didn't give them a penny. How do you know he didnt give $000s to ??..crippled children the next day. There are certainly charities I wont give to (World Vision is one) because of their administration. We cant give to all charities a d actually we are allowed to choose who and why. I will defend the kindness and compassion of many of the 2x2s. What I read about here is definitely not what I have witnessed. My parents were loved and cared for(as were all the elderly/ needy in that area) in an amazing way by their 2x2 community.The rest home my mother was in constantly told us of her wonderfully caring friends. I witnessed this when I was growing up too. Many here are quick to generalize and judge. Nice to hear your comments re the kindness and compassion of many 2x2s. I did not write the original post! I did not generalise and Put your church down. I only commented on the mans attitude re SA. I am tiring of people getting posters mixed up and not absorbing the points I make.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 21:17:33 GMT -5
I agree with Janj, some so called charities are not so, but a business to give people good jobs. My Wife used to be a Treasurer for Red Cross, I used to help her keep the books. The group of Ladies used to work hard to fund raise, and it was sent to Head office. But we got disappointed to see Head office growing like Topsy, and CEO's being paid millions of dollars. It got to the stage where half was used for admin, we left in disgust.
We like the Salvation Army. The Salvation Army helps disadvantaged Australians without discrimination, including people who are hungry, homeless, abandoned or abused . 82 cents of every dollar donated to The Salvation Army goes toward program services.
So choose wisely.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 13, 2020 21:34:52 GMT -5
Wally,Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Magp[e Who's today's Caesar? Trump
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 21:37:09 GMT -5
I agree with Janj, some so called charities are not so, but a business to give people good jobs. My Wife used to be a Treasurer for Red Cross, I used to help her keep the books. The group of Ladies used to work hard to fund raise, and it was sent to Head office. But we got disappointed to see Head office growing like Topsy, and CEO's being paid millions of dollars. It got to the stage where half was used for admin, we left in disgust. We like people like the Salvation Army. The Salvation Army helps disadvantaged Australians without discrimination, including people who are hungry, homeless, abandoned or abused . 82 cents of every dollar donated to The Salvation Army goes toward program services. So choose wisely. the most bang for your buck? WHO: HOW MUCH GOES TO THE PEOPLE: International Children's Fund 99.70% The Foodbank of Southern California 99.60% CIS Development Foundation 99.50% Matthew 25: Ministries 99.40% Kids In Need Foundation 99.40% Brother's Brother Foundation 99.40% Direct Relief 99.40% MAP International 99.30% Delivering Good 99.30% Books For Africa 99.20% Regional Food Bank of Oklahoma 99.20% Christian Blind Mission International 99.20% Midwest Food Bank, NFP 99.20% World Medical Relief 99.20% Feeding Tampa Bay 99.10% Feeding America's Hungry Children 99.10% Caring Voice Coalition 99.00% Foster Care to Success 99.00% Good360 99.00%
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 21:38:55 GMT -5
I smile to myself when 2x2's say we should be doing things the same as the era around 30AD. They seem to ignore the fact it is now 2020, and times change, that affect lifestyle. Laws change, society standards change, technology changes and of course there are so many other factors that bring about change. They accept that the kit for a Worker now is Smart Phone, Laptop, Credit Card, Bank Account, Car, Passport and Tooth Brush. Christ had none of that, well maybe the Toothbrush. Not that we expect them to get around on their Ass the way Christ did. It makes sense to use things that help to make life easier. But then don't say Christ didn't provide financial statements, so we won't. It is expected in this day and age, keeps people honest. Recently someone used my Credit card number to spend $1200 at an Apple store in America. I was able to prove to the Bank that it was not me and the transaction was cancelled. Just imagine if the bank refused to provide statements, I would never have known about that corruption. Financial statements help prevent corruption. You need checks and balances in place. Reluctantly 2x2's have taken action re CSA, not enough but at least it is a start. The same thing is required for financial reporting. No need to remind people as to what happened in Alberta,it has been well documented. I assure you there have been many other undetected instances of the same thing. Of course we will hear, "There are always bad apples" or "They are only human". Not good enough, you need checks and balances in place to stop apples going rotten, or people being irresponsible humans. How could Jesus have had Smart Phone, Laptop, Credit Card, Bank Account, Car, Passport and Tooth Brush.? Our bank statements would have nothing to do with you or any other nosy parker for that matter. I could bet that you would not share your statements with any Tom, Dick or Harry or want them to know anything about you finances. You are so wrong Speak, PM your address to me and I will send you a copy of our bank statement. You will be disappointed because we are Pensioners, all used for food, accommodation and services. We have nothing to hide nor should the 2x2's. To stop corruption transparency is needed, not secrecy. You say we are nosy Parkers, don't forget we used to be donors. 2x2 management owe recompense to all the victims of CSA. Obviously steps have been taken to dodge their responsibilities. Why???. We know they were financial, Evan Jones said so. It is a fair question to ask, where has it gone. Remember Alberta. Sorry, forgot, mustn't talk about that, 2x2's conveniently ignore history.
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Post by chuck on Jun 13, 2020 22:07:05 GMT -5
Actually Magpie,'giving' is a personal thing.It has nothing to do with a church or what group you belong to -it can be done quietly, discreetly and anonymously. You seem to think it has to be done under the church banner, on show for all the world to see. You are judging here and you actually have no idea what some people may give to charity because they do it quietly without of a lot of pomp. I agree with you. Too much "charity" is given for purposes of personal recognition and denominational promotion. "Do not announce it with trumpets" And the trumpet wasn't a "trumpet" as we know it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 22:09:05 GMT -5
Good to see that the CCofV Charity was voluntary revoked, as confirmed by this document.
The charity's subtype history PURPOSE START DATE END DATE Advancing religion 1 January 2014 15 November 2019 2012 Advancement of religion 3 December 2012 15 November 2019 Registration status history EFFECTIVE DATE STATUS 15 November 2019 Voluntarily revoked No longer operating 3 December 2012 Registered
Not for one moment did I think it would be because of breach of the law, or criminal activity. It is good to have confirmation. Pity they have lost the 10% GST concession.
All we need now is to know why the action was taken. They at least owe that to their own members, even if they are not prepared to make it public. And in due course we will hear from an insider.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 22:12:15 GMT -5
Good to see that the CCofV Charity was voluntary revoked, as confirmed by this document. The charity's subtype history PURPOSE START DATE END DATE Advancing religion 1 January 2014 15 November 2019 2012 Advancement of religion 3 December 2012 15 November 2019 Registration status history EFFECTIVE DATE STATUS 15 November 2019 Voluntarily revoked No longer operating 3 December 2012 Registered Not for one moment did I think it would be because of breach of the law, or criminal activity. It is good to have confirmation. All we need now is to know why the action was taken. They at least owe that to their own members, even if they are not prepared to make it public. And in due course we will hear from an insider. voluntarily revoked, what does that mean? it sounds like they closed it themselves and was not an external action....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 22:14:37 GMT -5
Exactly right Wally, but the big unanswered question is WHY???.
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Post by speak on Jun 13, 2020 22:27:33 GMT -5
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Post by chuck on Jun 13, 2020 22:38:43 GMT -5
I agree to a certain extent, this is why westerners and western Christianity cannot understand the bible imo, because we view it from the wrong perspective, the perspective with superpower backing. You would have to agree though Trump is nothing like the Caesars, the world is getting better.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 22:43:15 GMT -5
I agree to a certain extent, this is why westerners and western Christianity cannot understand the bible imo, because we view it from the wrong perspective, the perspective with superpower backing. You would have to agree though Trump is nothing like the Caesars, the world is getting better. covid-19, riots in over 30 US cities plus around the world, economic troubles....yeah right everything is peachy keen
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 13, 2020 23:43:12 GMT -5
I agree to a certain extent, this is why westerners and western Christianity cannot understand the bible imo, because we view it from the wrong perspective, the perspective with superpower backing. You would have to agree though Trump is nothing like the Caesars, the world is getting better. That's really a confusing post.
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janj
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Post by janj on Jun 14, 2020 0:39:16 GMT -5
How do you know he didnt give $000s to ??..crippled children the next day. There are certainly charities I wont give to (World Vision is one) because of their administration. We cant give to all charities a d actually we are allowed to choose who and why. I will defend the kindness and compassion of many of the 2x2s. What I read about here is definitely not what I have witnessed. My parents were loved and cared for(as were all the elderly/ needy in that area) in an amazing way by their 2x2 community.The rest home my mother was in constantly told us of her wonderfully caring friends. I witnessed this when I was growing up too. Many here are quick to generalize and judge. Nice to hear your comments re the kindness and compassion of many 2x2s. I did not write the original post! I did not generalise and Put your church down. I only commented on the mans attitude re SA. I am tiring of people getting posters mixed up and not absorbing the points I make. Yes Olea I totally agree-it is very annoying and I apologies for quoting the wrong post. Sometimes on my phone two posts run together and instead of quoting the original I quoted your reply. I enjoy your balanced view of things.
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Post by chuck on Jun 14, 2020 5:50:22 GMT -5
I agree to a certain extent, this is why westerners and western Christianity cannot understand the bible imo, because we view it from the wrong perspective, the perspective with superpower backing. You would have to agree though Trump is nothing like the Caesars, the world is getting better. covid-19, riots in over 30 US cities plus around the world, economic troubles....yeah right everything is peachy keen Read a history book wally. Im sure the Caeser's would have used something comparible to tear gas to disperse the crowds.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 5:57:41 GMT -5
covid-19, riots in over 30 US cities plus around the world, economic troubles....yeah right everything is peachy keen Im sure the Caeser's would have used something comparible to tear gas to disperse the crowds. oh and what would that have been?
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magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
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Post by magpies39plus on Jun 14, 2020 7:15:08 GMT -5
What a lot of crapp!!.No one wants to know what you give. But a charity is who we trust to do as the bible commands us to do.That of course is to care for the poor,persecuted,homeless,sick,etc without favour. So why are you going on about justifying a ministry that ignores those commands? As Walter Pickering said"The poor is not "OUR"conscern that is why you pay your taxes". That was a senior 2x2 preachers excuse to not attend to God/Jesus commands of us. Magpie
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Jun 14, 2020 8:02:01 GMT -5
How could Jesus have had Smart Phone, Laptop, Credit Card, Bank Account, Car, Passport and Tooth Brush.? Our bank statements would have nothing to do with you or any other nosy parker for that matter. I could bet that you would not share your statements with any Tom, Dick or Harry or want them to know anything about you finances. You are so wrong Speak, PM your address to me and I will send you a copy of our bank statement. You will be disappointed because we are Pensioners, all used for food, accommodation and services. We have nothing to hide nor should the 2x2's. To stop corruption transparency is needed, not secrecy. You say we are nosy Parkers, don't forget we used to be donors. 2x2 management owe recompense to all the victims of CSA. Obviously steps have been taken to dodge their responsibilities. Why???. We know they were financial, Evan Jones said so. It is a fair question to ask, where has it gone. Remember Alberta. Sorry, forgot, mustn't talk about that, 2x2's conveniently ignore history. Talking about "nosy Parkers", you've hit the nail on the head as to why the Parkers (Doug and Helen that is) chose the title "The Secret Sect". If you ask the following very basic questions about how money is handled, the responses (or lack of them) are quite interesting: 1. How much money is given each year? 2. How is it applied? 3. If there is money left over, how is it invested? 4. Who manages the money and how to do ensure good stewardship? 5. What internal controls do you have in place to ensure that money is handled properly? 6. Do you produce a set of financial accounts? Are they independently audited? 7. Do you or the Trustees pay tax on any income - given you are not registered as a church? If not, why not? It doesn't interest me now, but when I was part of the church I tried to ask these questions - as an accountant by profession I had a natural interest and as a Christian I assumed that any church worth their salt would want transparency, accountability, good stewardship and would be very happy to answer any questions. I didn't get very far..... I'm amused by the response you got above referring to "our bank statements". Any elder (unless they're a Trustee) wouldn't know anything more about how money is handled than the average lay member and has absolutely zero access to bank statements. At least it's been confirmed that they hold money in bank accounts which generate "our bank statements". If you had seen "our bank statements" relating to at least one state in Australia you would have seen many millions of dollars in the account. The reason that there is no transparency or accountability when it comes to money is simple - millions of dollars sitting in bank accounts does not sit well with their teaching such as "we're not a registered church like the other churches" and "our preachers go our in faith, have nothing, aren't paid a salary etc - unlike those false ministers".
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Post by chuck on Jun 14, 2020 8:06:13 GMT -5
Im sure the Caeser's would have used something comparible to tear gas to disperse the crowds. oh and what would that have been? Oh I don't know, a cross maybe, or fed to the lions or some sort of blood sport or a lance up the date. History books, even the bible paints a picture of horendous events in the day. The worlds getting better wally.
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