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Post by speak on Jun 11, 2020 23:44:23 GMT -5
Speak you obviously have carpet all through your house. Good place to sweep all the dirt, a well used 2x2 practice. Bit lazy and irresponsible, I prefer to use a vacuum cleaner. I am surprised you have one, does it run on electricity or do you have to push it?
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Post by speak on Jun 11, 2020 23:45:01 GMT -5
More poop Not my words........ Leviticus says do not touch someone who's bleeding out. Do not touch someone who's bleeding out. Leviticus also says do not leave someone for dead. Can you see where you could be in a situation where that could contradict itself, alright? Let's read one. This scripture is a parable Jesus told - it's very familiar, out of Luke 10:25 to 37. I want to take 10 minutes or so and break this scripture down, and then I want to apply it to our lives. We're going to find ourself in this. It says this: On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. Teacher, he asked, what must I do to inherit eternal life? What is written in the Torah, He replied, how do you read it? And Jesus - oh, I'm sorry - Jesus answered him, what's written in the Torah? How do you read it? And he answered love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself. You have answered correctly, Jesus replied. Do this and you will live, and he wanted to justify himself so he asked Jesus a follow up question; And who is my neighbour? In reply Jesus said a man was going from Jerusalem to Jericho when he fell into the hands of some robbers and they stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away leaving him half dead. And a priest happened to be going down the same road. When he saw the man he passed him on the other side, so too the Levite, when he came to the place and saw him he passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan as he travelled came where the man was and when he saw him he took pity on him. He went to him and he bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to the inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. Look after him he said and I will return. I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have had. Which of these three do you think was a neighbour to the man who fell into the hands of robbers? And the expert in the law replied the one who had mercy on him, and Jesus told him go and do likewise. Now there's so much going on here. Any time you read a Hebrew parable you have to understand how they interpreted it. Hebrew people read parables for identification, not primarily for content okay. Hebrew people read parables for identification, not for content. Here's how it worked. Jesus was called a Master of Haggadah which was the ability to teach with parables. Now it took some skill to do it because this was how they thought about it. Any time you're reading a Hebrew parable the first question you ask is this: who is asking the question? Two - so who is asking the question? Two, what question is he asking? Three, who in the story would he identify with? The answer to the question is found in whoever the one asking it identifies with in the parable. Okay, does that make sense? So if I'm asking a question and you're my rabbi and you say let me answer you with a parable, I would be listening intently for whoever I would identify with in the parable and that would be the answer to my question, alright. So there's at least two things going on here. The first thing is this, is Jesus is giving us a light and heavy interpretation of what do you do when you find someone left for dead, touching them versus helping them? What do you do? If you touch them you're sinning; if you leave them for dead you're sinning. Which one's the worst? Alright, so Jesus is doing that. The second thing He's doing is He's answering this guy's question, so let's go through this. Who was the one asking the question? Who is it? An expert Pharisee, so a top end Pharisee alright, so expert Pharisee. Okay, what question is he asking? Who is my neighbour. Why is he asking that? He comes to Jesus and he says what must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus is so rabbinical, Jesus says um I don't know, how do you read it? You're a Pharisee, tell me your yoke, right and the Pharisee says okay, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbour as yourself. Jesus says that's it. If you do that you'll inherit eternal life, okay. If you do that you'll inherit eternal life. So the Pharisee says well hold on then, who's my neighbour? In other words if I have to love my neighbour like I love myself, then let's define who are the people I have to love this way. So essentially he's drawing a box and he's saying in this box are neighbours. Who is in here? Now there are a lot of answers aren't there? Isn't there a lot of possibilities? Couldn't Jesus have said okay, just Jews. Just Jews. The Pharisee, okay - maybe He could have said only clean Jews. That would have even been better. What if He said only Pharisees? What if He only said the guys who live on your street, those neighbours? Like there are a lot of potential answers here and it's a very important thing because Jesus is talking about something called eternal life. He's saying if you want to inherit eternal life you've got to love your neighbour as yourself. The question is who's my neighbour? In other words who are these group of people that I have to love like I love myself? So Jesus says let me tell you a parable to answer this. Now as soon as He said that the Pharisee would have been listening to the parable for who he identifies with in the story. In a Hebrew parable there are three characters as you see at the end of the parable Jesus said, so which one of the three acted like a neighbour, okay? There are three characters okay, so Jesus sets him up. So He says there's this guy that gets left for dead, okay. There's three people are going to walk by him. The first one is a priest and he walks right by him. Now two questions: one, would the Pharisee have identified with the priest? No. Priests were Sadducees. Pharisees and priests did not get along because they disagreed on what made up the scriptures. The Pharisees said that the Torah and the prophets made up scriptures; the priests said that the Torah only was the scripture, so they didn't get along at all. So as soon as Jesus said there's this priest that walked by the Pharisee would have been like okay, go on. The second observation is this. Our tendency is to say bad priest, bad priest, you walked by. But maybe that priest's rabbi, maybe he said listen, it is a better thing for you to walk away instead of touching a person bleeding out. Why? Because the priest would have been going to offer sacrifices. If he touches the guy bleeding out he becomes unclean, which costs him his ability to offer sacrifices, so maybe that priest, if he touched the guy it would have cost hundreds of people their forgiveness that day - so it's totally plausible that the priest walked by. He says okay, the second guy's a Levite and the Levite walks by too. Now here's the question: if you're a Pharisee do you identify with the Levite? No, same reason. Levites were priests. Levites were Sadducees okay. The Levites believe that the Torah only was the scripture. The Pharisees were about two per cent of the population who believed that the Torah and the prophets were the scriptures. They were actually - I know this goes against some things - the Pharisees were actually the progressive, visionary thinkers. They were the ones who would look at our Bible and go that's plausible. The priests of that day and the Sadducees would have said no, you've added too many books. Ezekiel, no way. Isaiah, no way. Joshua, no way. No, Matthew, no, no, no. It's got Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, that's it see? So the Levite walks by, same reason right. So here Jesus sets him up so good. In a Hebrew parable when you're answering a question, if you're not the first and you're not the second then you're automatically the third, so the Pharisee would have been on his toes - oh! Oh! Who am I? Who is my neighbour? Jesus says the third guy is a Samaritan. [Laughter] The Samaritan actually is the kind one. He picks him up and he takes care of him and he does all this stuff, and then Jesus asked him the following question. He says who acted like a neighbour? The Pharisee can't even say it, he can't even say Samaritan. He says the one who had mercy. Jesus said that's right, go and do likewise, you'll inherit eternal life. So what's He saying? A couple of things, light and heavy. The first thing He's saying is this, is that when you're faced with a situation of touching someone dying or walking away to offer sacrifice, He says the light sin is always having mercy. The heavy sin is leaving someone for dead. Later He said this: I desire mercy more than sacrifice. In other words if you're act of mercy takes away your ability to offer sacrifice, I understand your heart. That was the light and heavy part. What was the other part? So in this parable what is Jesus' definition of a neighbour? Who does He tell the Pharisee is his neighbour? The Samaritan. In other words Jesus is saying your neighbour is the person you hate the most. He's saying if you want to inherit eternal life you have to grow in your kingdom mentality to where you can actually love the people you think you hate. He gives him a follow up tool to do that. He says the way to do that is don't ask how restrictive can we make this box. Don't ask questions like how restrictive can we make this box. Here's a better question to ask. A better question to ask is how can I be a neighbour to someone else? How can I actually make someone else's life better? What's He saying? He's saying you're getting so caught up in the light you're missing the heavy. You're getting so caught up in who's my neighbour that you're missing all your opportunities to be a neighbour. Listen to me. When the spirits and the demons and the enemy of our soul, the things that can control our thoughts in a negative way and can sort of drive behaviour, listen, they typically are very subtle. They don't come in [unclear 00.35.15]. They come in very subtly and they get a foothold and a stronghold. One of the primary ways they do that in the church is this, is they make the church lose sight of the heavy in favour of the light. They take an organisation and they get everybody in the organisation so focussed on the light that they lose sight of the heavy. The get so focussed on questions like who's my neighbour? Well let's apply it to what we're doing. They get so focussed on questions like what songs are we singing? Is our lighting okay? How's this? How's that? They get so focussed on the light that they lose sight of the heavy. People are starving. We need to feed them. People are oppressed with the demonic. We need to be a hand in delivering them. People's lives are going to hell day by day by day, and we need to be a part of bringing heaven to that situation. There are single mums here who have four children. Their left eye twitches uncontrollably and all they need for heaven to come to their situation is for a group of people to watch their children once a week just so they can have four hours alone of peace and quiet. That would bring heaven to that situation, and we walk by it. Why? Because we're worried about systems and songs and lights and fog and programs and all of that. We lose sight of the heavy in favour of the light and when the enemy of our soul can get us to focus on the light instead of the heavy, he wins. Now listen, I'm all for details and being organised and all that. We should focus on the light. That is something we should do, but any time we get so focussed on the light that we lose sight of the heavy then the devil wins. There's a group of people in Charleston, South Carolina who are so focussed on women not cutting their hair or wearing slacks, or wearing make up and not going to movies, and making sure people don't take a sip of beer that they're willing to hate people of a different race and not feed hungry people, and not clothe naked people and not visit prisoners. They've gotten so focussed on the light that they lose sight of the heavy and when that happens the enemy wins and the kingdom suffers. People say oh, it's just between me and God. No. Listen, if it's just between you and God do whatever you want to do. God can handle you. It's the problem is it's never between you and God; it's always between you and God and it affects a whole lot of people. May we be kingdom people who are focussed on the heavy. May we be people - and you know what? All of us, all of us struggle with this. Why? Because it's the devil's primary strategy. He had this guy who had memorised the entire Bible. The guy had - the Pharisees had memorised the whole Bible, the whole thing. He had a guy who had memorised the whole Bible, yet he was missing the point. How did the devil accomplish that? How did he accomplish that? Here's all he did. He said wait a minute, let's see if we can restrict this and ask the wrong questions. When we start asking the wrong questions the right questions go to the side and we lose our effectiveness. Listen, we have got to step back and get the bigger picture. yawn.
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Post by chuck on Jun 11, 2020 23:47:02 GMT -5
Thanks Iam for your post, so honest and sad . I liked your comment, "They’ve been too busy jetting around the world to take care of the devastation in their own backyards." Hear that same comment made by some of our own 2x2 friends. I was surprised recently a very sincere couple that we have known for years gave us the same story. They became so disillusioned that they voted with their feet and walked. Very happy and satisfied with their new found Church. I never ever thought they would do that, but management in Australia, or lack of it is at an all time low. If the top brass don't wake up soon many more will walk. I know they will right it off as predicted caused by the Devil. They are clever always come of with an answer that resolves them of responsibility. We were hearing that message 50 years ago. You look at the progression of movement of itinerant Workers over the years. 90 years ago when our Parents professed they were not getting around on their Ass, but many had Horses. In our day 70 years ago it was Push Bikes. 60 years ago it was borrowed Cars. 20 years they got their own Cars. And of course 10 years ago they graduated to Air travel. I mean it is complete nonsense to say they are doing the same as Christ. Not that we expect them to get around on their Ass, not practical in this day and age. But please don't say we are doing it the same way as they did 2000 years ago. And think if they kept their feet on the ground in their own back yard the money saved in Air fares could be given to Charity. As Chuck posted, "This does not mean there isn't generous people within the 2x2's.", we know that is true, and feel so sorry for them. I know that management don't listen to those within, probably less chance for those without. But there are ways to make them sit up and take notice, they will be used as Ross has mentioned. Magpie and myself will do what we can because of our concern for the good people. The only problem for Magpie and myself is that our perches are getting a bit shaky. It is good to see that the B.L.M. campaign is gathering strength and supported Worldwide. We need follow up with A.L.M. campaign. ALL LIVES MATTER What do you expect them to do? ride donkeys when you are in a car? Using a row boat when going over seas, what a pathetic argument, they get moaned about for not helping in other countries then get moaned about not helping in their own countries. They get moaned about using cars then get moaned about them not visiting all. If half of you people actually thought about you are saying you might have a eureka moment, but that I doubt because you would then have nothing to complain about. What a sad life. I recall stories of them moaning about cars, they're worldly apparently. ... what happened? A appropriate word describing peoples feelings would be "Charlatan"
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Post by chuck on Jun 12, 2020 0:03:50 GMT -5
Not my words........ Leviticus says do not touch someone who's bleeding out. Do not touch someone who's bleeding out. Leviticus also says do not leave someone for dead. Can you see where you could be in a situation where that could contradict itself, alright? Let's read one. This scripture is a parable Jesus told - it's very familiar, out of Luke 10:25 to 37. I want to take 10 minutes or so and break this scripture down, and then I want to apply it to our lives. We're going to find ourself in this. It says this: On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. Teacher, he asked, what must I do to inherit eternal life? What is written in the Torah, He replied, how do you read it? And Jesus - oh, I'm sorry - Jesus answered him, what's written in the Torah? How do you read it? And he answered love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself. You have answered correctly, Jesus replied. Do this and you will live, and he wanted to justify himself so he asked Jesus a follow up question; And who is my neighbour? In reply Jesus said a man was going from Jerusalem to Jericho when he fell into the hands of some robbers and they stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away leaving him half dead. And a priest happened to be going down the same road. When he saw the man he passed him on the other side, so too the Levite, when he came to the place and saw him he passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan as he travelled came where the man was and when he saw him he took pity on him. He went to him and he bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to the inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. Look after him he said and I will return. I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have had. Which of these three do you think was a neighbour to the man who fell into the hands of robbers? And the expert in the law replied the one who had mercy on him, and Jesus told him go and do likewise. Now there's so much going on here. Any time you read a Hebrew parable you have to understand how they interpreted it. Hebrew people read parables for identification, not primarily for content okay. Hebrew people read parables for identification, not for content. Here's how it worked. Jesus was called a Master of Haggadah which was the ability to teach with parables. Now it took some skill to do it because this was how they thought about it. Any time you're reading a Hebrew parable the first question you ask is this: who is asking the question? Two - so who is asking the question? Two, what question is he asking? Three, who in the story would he identify with? The answer to the question is found in whoever the one asking it identifies with in the parable. Okay, does that make sense? So if I'm asking a question and you're my rabbi and you say let me answer you with a parable, I would be listening intently for whoever I would identify with in the parable and that would be the answer to my question, alright. So there's at least two things going on here. The first thing is this, is Jesus is giving us a light and heavy interpretation of what do you do when you find someone left for dead, touching them versus helping them? What do you do? If you touch them you're sinning; if you leave them for dead you're sinning. Which one's the worst? Alright, so Jesus is doing that. The second thing He's doing is He's answering this guy's question, so let's go through this. Who was the one asking the question? Who is it? An expert Pharisee, so a top end Pharisee alright, so expert Pharisee. Okay, what question is he asking? Who is my neighbour. Why is he asking that? He comes to Jesus and he says what must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus is so rabbinical, Jesus says um I don't know, how do you read it? You're a Pharisee, tell me your yoke, right and the Pharisee says okay, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbour as yourself. Jesus says that's it. If you do that you'll inherit eternal life, okay. If you do that you'll inherit eternal life. So the Pharisee says well hold on then, who's my neighbour? In other words if I have to love my neighbour like I love myself, then let's define who are the people I have to love this way. So essentially he's drawing a box and he's saying in this box are neighbours. Who is in here? Now there are a lot of answers aren't there? Isn't there a lot of possibilities? Couldn't Jesus have said okay, just Jews. Just Jews. The Pharisee, okay - maybe He could have said only clean Jews. That would have even been better. What if He said only Pharisees? What if He only said the guys who live on your street, those neighbours? Like there are a lot of potential answers here and it's a very important thing because Jesus is talking about something called eternal life. He's saying if you want to inherit eternal life you've got to love your neighbour as yourself. The question is who's my neighbour? In other words who are these group of people that I have to love like I love myself? So Jesus says let me tell you a parable to answer this. Now as soon as He said that the Pharisee would have been listening to the parable for who he identifies with in the story. In a Hebrew parable there are three characters as you see at the end of the parable Jesus said, so which one of the three acted like a neighbour, okay? There are three characters okay, so Jesus sets him up. So He says there's this guy that gets left for dead, okay. There's three people are going to walk by him. The first one is a priest and he walks right by him. Now two questions: one, would the Pharisee have identified with the priest? No. Priests were Sadducees. Pharisees and priests did not get along because they disagreed on what made up the scriptures. The Pharisees said that the Torah and the prophets made up scriptures; the priests said that the Torah only was the scripture, so they didn't get along at all. So as soon as Jesus said there's this priest that walked by the Pharisee would have been like okay, go on. The second observation is this. Our tendency is to say bad priest, bad priest, you walked by. But maybe that priest's rabbi, maybe he said listen, it is a better thing for you to walk away instead of touching a person bleeding out. Why? Because the priest would have been going to offer sacrifices. If he touches the guy bleeding out he becomes unclean, which costs him his ability to offer sacrifices, so maybe that priest, if he touched the guy it would have cost hundreds of people their forgiveness that day - so it's totally plausible that the priest walked by. He says okay, the second guy's a Levite and the Levite walks by too. Now here's the question: if you're a Pharisee do you identify with the Levite? No, same reason. Levites were priests. Levites were Sadducees okay. The Levites believe that the Torah only was the scripture. The Pharisees were about two per cent of the population who believed that the Torah and the prophets were the scriptures. They were actually - I know this goes against some things - the Pharisees were actually the progressive, visionary thinkers. They were the ones who would look at our Bible and go that's plausible. The priests of that day and the Sadducees would have said no, you've added too many books. Ezekiel, no way. Isaiah, no way. Joshua, no way. No, Matthew, no, no, no. It's got Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, that's it see? So the Levite walks by, same reason right. So here Jesus sets him up so good. In a Hebrew parable when you're answering a question, if you're not the first and you're not the second then you're automatically the third, so the Pharisee would have been on his toes - oh! Oh! Who am I? Who is my neighbour? Jesus says the third guy is a Samaritan. [Laughter] The Samaritan actually is the kind one. He picks him up and he takes care of him and he does all this stuff, and then Jesus asked him the following question. He says who acted like a neighbour? The Pharisee can't even say it, he can't even say Samaritan. He says the one who had mercy. Jesus said that's right, go and do likewise, you'll inherit eternal life. So what's He saying? A couple of things, light and heavy. The first thing He's saying is this, is that when you're faced with a situation of touching someone dying or walking away to offer sacrifice, He says the light sin is always having mercy. The heavy sin is leaving someone for dead. Later He said this: I desire mercy more than sacrifice. In other words if you're act of mercy takes away your ability to offer sacrifice, I understand your heart. That was the light and heavy part. What was the other part? So in this parable what is Jesus' definition of a neighbour? Who does He tell the Pharisee is his neighbour? The Samaritan. In other words Jesus is saying your neighbour is the person you hate the most. He's saying if you want to inherit eternal life you have to grow in your kingdom mentality to where you can actually love the people you think you hate. He gives him a follow up tool to do that. He says the way to do that is don't ask how restrictive can we make this box. Don't ask questions like how restrictive can we make this box. Here's a better question to ask. A better question to ask is how can I be a neighbour to someone else? How can I actually make someone else's life better? What's He saying? He's saying you're getting so caught up in the light you're missing the heavy. You're getting so caught up in who's my neighbour that you're missing all your opportunities to be a neighbour. Listen to me. When the spirits and the demons and the enemy of our soul, the things that can control our thoughts in a negative way and can sort of drive behaviour, listen, they typically are very subtle. They don't come in [unclear 00.35.15]. They come in very subtly and they get a foothold and a stronghold. One of the primary ways they do that in the church is this, is they make the church lose sight of the heavy in favour of the light. They take an organisation and they get everybody in the organisation so focussed on the light that they lose sight of the heavy. The get so focussed on questions like who's my neighbour? Well let's apply it to what we're doing. They get so focussed on questions like what songs are we singing? Is our lighting okay? How's this? How's that? They get so focussed on the light that they lose sight of the heavy. People are starving. We need to feed them. People are oppressed with the demonic. We need to be a hand in delivering them. People's lives are going to hell day by day by day, and we need to be a part of bringing heaven to that situation. There are single mums here who have four children. Their left eye twitches uncontrollably and all they need for heaven to come to their situation is for a group of people to watch their children once a week just so they can have four hours alone of peace and quiet. That would bring heaven to that situation, and we walk by it. Why? Because we're worried about systems and songs and lights and fog and programs and all of that. We lose sight of the heavy in favour of the light and when the enemy of our soul can get us to focus on the light instead of the heavy, he wins. Now listen, I'm all for details and being organised and all that. We should focus on the light. That is something we should do, but any time we get so focussed on the light that we lose sight of the heavy then the devil wins. There's a group of people in Charleston, South Carolina who are so focussed on women not cutting their hair or wearing slacks, or wearing make up and not going to movies, and making sure people don't take a sip of beer that they're willing to hate people of a different race and not feed hungry people, and not clothe naked people and not visit prisoners. They've gotten so focussed on the light that they lose sight of the heavy and when that happens the enemy wins and the kingdom suffers. People say oh, it's just between me and God. No. Listen, if it's just between you and God do whatever you want to do. God can handle you. It's the problem is it's never between you and God; it's always between you and God and it affects a whole lot of people. May we be kingdom people who are focussed on the heavy. May we be people - and you know what? All of us, all of us struggle with this. Why? Because it's the devil's primary strategy. He had this guy who had memorised the entire Bible. The guy had - the Pharisees had memorised the whole Bible, the whole thing. He had a guy who had memorised the whole Bible, yet he was missing the point. How did the devil accomplish that? How did he accomplish that? Here's all he did. He said wait a minute, let's see if we can restrict this and ask the wrong questions. When we start asking the wrong questions the right questions go to the side and we lose our effectiveness. Listen, we have got to step back and get the bigger picture. yawn. "Im terminating this conversation" "Poop" "More poop" "Yawn" And you said you were older than who? iam? how old is she again? 60odd?
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Post by speak on Jun 12, 2020 0:14:57 GMT -5
"Im terminating this conversation" "Poop" "More poop" "Yawn" And you said you were older than who? iam ? how old is she again? 60odd? That's all that was deserved
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Post by chuck on Jun 12, 2020 0:22:21 GMT -5
"Im terminating this conversation" "Poop" "More poop" "Yawn" And you said you were older than who? iam ? how old is she again? 60odd? That's all that was deserved Well we may accept that if you had something to offer to the conversation.........
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Post by iam on Jun 12, 2020 0:31:47 GMT -5
We still have good 2x2 friends who complain to us. I never ever tell them to leave, but do tell them how we found peace and happiness. If they want help go to questioning friends.com. Better qualified than I am to advise. Complainers never prosper. Please, speak! Your complaining is becoming monotonous
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Post by iam on Jun 12, 2020 0:42:22 GMT -5
Here's your chance then....... I suspect it will be like our last conversation, crickets......... It is horse poop because we follow [love your neighbour as yourself] so know what you are talking about before you talk If that ain’t 💩💩💩 nothin is. Someone told me awhile ago that if there’s just one of us that finds us NOT being neighbourly, that’s what it is to Jesus. Too bad we didn’t LIVE like that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2020 1:51:02 GMT -5
Magpie you raised a valid question, why was the Charity registration revoked. Thanks to Ross for confirming that it was to dodge their legal responsibilities. Normal 2x2 practice, they are tricky Basta***. I know that for many charities it is not compulsory to disclose their financial activities, but any decent Church is only too pleased to reveal that information. I always support the Salvation Army, they do an excellent job in looking after the needy. They always reply with a letter of thanks, plus tell you what the money is being used for. That is the way it should be, Magpie, you and I donated to that charity, but we will never know what happened to it. We should have given it to the Salvos. Think you may find that the Trust Fund has also vanished. I did hear that the new idea was to put into Workers personal accounts, so it is not in one spot, and cannot be got at. So we can expect more travel and holidays for Workers. And of course you won't get any answers from rank and file 2x2's. They would not even know that the Charity and Trust Fund existed. But some exes are fortunate, they still have contact with insiders who are privy to classified information.We can only hope that one day they will learn to do things in the proper way. Never heard of a meeting charity trust here but I am far removed from church info. What did intrique me was the Bill Carroll & wife ( workers) living in some stately home in Australia with other workers having a servant role. As you know, the Carroll’s were there right at the beginning when the group of workers started out homeless in Ireland. The sister was one of the first workers to N.Z. Often wondered how they wound that existence into the church doctrine. It’s quite interesting from a historical viewpoint.
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Post by speak on Jun 12, 2020 4:32:29 GMT -5
Complainers never prosper. Please, speak! Your complaining is becoming monotonous And long may it continue
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2020 5:46:06 GMT -5
You are right Olea the early history of the 2x2 Church is intriguing. Of course now it has been well documented and preserved for all time on TTT because of the great work done by Cherie. No doubt many 2x2's would prefer that the history went away, because they never recorded it themselves and it does not support the message they were preaching. Those early days the structure changed dramatically. The intent by WI and EC was that everybody would be a Worker and live by faith that there natural needs would be provided for. And I suppose with a slight stretch of imagination you could believe it almost was the same as " From the Shores of Galilee." But of course another 12 were added to get the show on the road. Now that 12 could see that it was going to be a tough call to rely on faith to provide for their needs. So they changed the structure to have Workers and Laity, which of course was no different to existing Protestant Churches.So an organisation evolved, Overseer, Senior Workers, Junior Workers, Elders, and Laity. So now even with imagination it was nothing like "The Shores of Galilee" but they continued to use that line in their sales pitch. Of course many fell for it including our Parents. So it was a straight out deception. I am sure that the original 12 must have known it was incorrect, but they set themselves up, thank you very much. It was nothing like the concept that WI and EC wanted. Funny how it ended up nothing like they intended and it was never mentioned.
I am not critical of the early Workers who came in after the 12, or our Parents who believed it. They were programmed by the the 12 and believed without question what they were told. They had no records to refer to for fact checking, they had to blindly believe, it sounded convincing. Of course it all fell apart when people like Doug Parker revealed it. I got to talk to Doug several times on the phone. Never forget his first words to me after I introduced myself as an ex 2x2." So you were a part of the great deception". Sort of came home to me that we had been conned and even more glad to have escaped. Of course you won't hear that "From the Shores of Galilee" much now, only from a few old die hards of my vintage. There is too much evidence out there to say it was not so. The lesson is be truthful and straight up, otherwise you will get found out and it will bite you on the bum.
Of course the Carrolls were very much a part of the original 12 , very intelligent. We never ever heard about WI, but were told that EC was an evil man that took his own way. But of course we now know it was the 12 that took their own way. Funny how it gets manipulated. We thought that Bill was God, he was greatly respected by us Carrollites. Of course his life style was what caused the great split in Victoria in the 1950's. We were most upset when enemy Workers came in and dismantled all that Bill had done. They changed it all to conform with 2x2 World standards. Many of my vintage have really never got over it, we were happy with the way Bill ran things. Although he ran a tight ship we loved him and his staff. It was a very intimate group, a lot of love shared. Bill introduced some good ideas such as Children's meetings at Convention. And of course he was happily married with a Daughter, so could relate better to family life. His Theological knowledge was strong, he had attended Bible College. He also kept in touch with the leaders of other Churches and from what I was told by my Parents was well respected by them. And of course he past his knowledge on to his Staff. New Workers spent their first year with Bill at Rosebud where he trained them. That ceased when the show reformed after the big split, Workers went straight out, untrained.
Will always keep fond memories of those years, they meant a lot to us.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2020 16:53:47 GMT -5
That is an interesting post about the history and you raise some good points Redback. It correlates with some of my thoughts. I certainly don’t like the deception involved. However regardless of the sadness and disappointment one feels, we have to live with it & go foreword in our individual lives. Bitterness, although understandable, is futile. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by blandie on Jun 12, 2020 23:01:11 GMT -5
Is there any public records that shows the dissolution of this charity and how the assets were liquidated? I think that charities in most places are required to file paperwork that shows why the thing was dissolved and to certify that the assets were distributed to other organizations with similar charitable goals and activities to ensure that the charitable purpose continues and that the assets don't get diverted to some other use. Maybe they just put up some other organization to dodge the liabilities and scrutiny maybe??
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Jun 12, 2020 23:27:19 GMT -5
Is there any public records that shows the dissolution of this charity and how the assets were liquidated? I think that charities in most places are required to file paperwork that shows why the thing was dissolved and to certify that the assets were distributed to other organizations with similar charitable goals and activities to ensure that the charitable purpose continues and that the assets don't get diverted to some other use. Maybe they just put up some other organization to dodge the liabilities and scrutiny maybe?? www.acnc.gov.au/charity/00e53de52bc084b031a73306ed277264You'll find the governing document, statement from the trustees on winding up etc under the Financials and Documents tab. On page 4 of the Trust Deed you'll find details of what is to happen on winding up the Trust. In my view there's absolutely nothing untoward either about the Trust or it being wound up (what is disingenuous is that they regularly criticise other churches for holding any type of assets). The assets would have either been distributed to further the religious objectives of the Trust or simply moved to another trust that does not have charitable status and does not need to be reported on. I'm surprised that they didn't do this when the Australian Charities and Not For Profit Commission was enacted in 2012 - which required these kinds of trusts to be registered. They could have moved it to a non-charitable trust structure at that point. There is one key reason to keep it as a charitable trust though and that is to legally avoid the payment of any tax. I suspect they assumed that no-one would ever find the trust. Given the publicity around it and the fact that some lawyers were raising questions about it, it was presumably deemed better to dissolve the charitable trust and move the assets to a non-charitable trust structure. I am aware of a couple of lawyers who enquired about it in relation to NSW victims of CSA and the response was that the trust was nothing to do with the church in NSW so state boundaries are useful
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Post by chuck on Jun 12, 2020 23:51:38 GMT -5
Is there any public records that shows the dissolution of this charity and how the assets were liquidated? I think that charities in most places are required to file paperwork that shows why the thing was dissolved and to certify that the assets were distributed to other organizations with similar charitable goals and activities to ensure that the charitable purpose continues and that the assets don't get diverted to some other use. Maybe they just put up some other organization to dodge the liabilities and scrutiny maybe?? What you are suggesting is impossible, It's the "TRUTH" you know. Hang on.... unless!............ I mean the hypocrisy literally stinks to the high heavens. Pun intended 😁. You only believe in something if you live it out. Dodgy dealings like this is what the devil is!. Not some dude with a pitchfork or what ever other image Religion puts in your head. So if you beleive this covert dishonest behaviour is truth, that is what your life is like, that is the grounding and bases to your life. And I can tell you, just in my little area the amount of 2x2's that are downright dishonest is disgusting. On Sunday they are angelic, and on Monday they are dishonest hypocrites. This is grounded in "we are right" so "we can do what we like" attitude. Its all connected, just like the dishonesty that has been discussed in this post. The whole thing is grounded in dishonesty and it flows through the group. This does not mean everyone is dishonest within the 2x2's. Our Bishop is a very very honest person. And when I started to discuss this with him ages ago he politely denied it, but now he can see it just as well as I can. We may differ on many things but he displays the Character of Christ to which I repsect him and his wife greatly, but many do not for various reason, mainly envy though. I guess my beef is for supposedly being the only way and the "truth" there sure is a truck load of dishonesty involved. This is not God!. This is the Character/Nature of Satan. Rant over 😁 By dishonest hypocrites, I dont mean they break silly 2x2 rules like watching TV or having a beer. I mean continually dishonest in their daily conduct, For example, happily ripping someone off and boastibg about it. Stealing things even if they have little to no value, Not loving thy neighbors, fighting like cats and dogs with their own family ect ect.
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Post by speak on Jun 13, 2020 0:41:24 GMT -5
Is there any public records that shows the dissolution of this charity and how the assets were liquidated? I think that charities in most places are required to file paperwork that shows why the thing was dissolved and to certify that the assets were distributed to other organizations with similar charitable goals and activities to ensure that the charitable purpose continues and that the assets don't get diverted to some other use. Maybe they just put up some other organization to dodge the liabilities and scrutiny maybe?? What you are suggesting is impossible, It's the "TRUTH" you know. Hang on.... unless!............ I mean the hypocrisy literally stinks to the high heavens. Pun intended 😁. You only believe in something if you live it out. Dodgy dealings like this is what the devil is!. Not some dude with a pitchfork or what ever other image Religion puts in your head. So if you beleive this covert dishonest behaviour is truth, that is what your life is like, that is the grounding and bases to your life. And I can tell you, just in my little area the amount of 2x2's that are downright dishonest is disgusting. On Sunday they are angelic, and on Monday they are dishonest hypocrites. This is grounded in "we are right" so "we can do what we like" attitude. Its all connected, just like the dishonesty that has been discussed in this post. The whole thing is grounded in dishonesty and it flows through the group. This does not mean everyone is dishonest within the 2x2's. Our Bishop is a very very honest person. And when I started to discuss this with him ages ago he politely denied it, but now he can see it just as well as I can. We may differ on many things but he displays the Character of Christ to which I repsect him and his wife greatly, but many do not for various reason, mainly envy though. I guess my beef is for supposedly being the only way and the "truth" there sure is a truck load of dishonesty involved. This is not God!. This is the Character/Nature of Satan. Rant over 😁 By dishonest hypocrites, I dont mean they break silly 2x2 rules like watching TV or having a beer. I mean continually dishonest in their daily conduct, For example, happily ripping someone off and boastibg about it. Stealing things even if they have little to no value, Not loving thy neighbors, fighting like cats and dogs with their own family ect ect. Fancy all that poop
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Post by chuck on Jun 13, 2020 1:36:16 GMT -5
What you are suggesting is impossible, It's the "TRUTH" you know. Hang on.... unless!............ I mean the hypocrisy literally stinks to the high heavens. Pun intended 😁. You only believe in something if you live it out. Dodgy dealings like this is what the devil is!. Not some dude with a pitchfork or what ever other image Religion puts in your head. So if you beleive this covert dishonest behaviour is truth, that is what your life is like, that is the grounding and bases to your life. And I can tell you, just in my little area the amount of 2x2's that are downright dishonest is disgusting. On Sunday they are angelic, and on Monday they are dishonest hypocrites. This is grounded in "we are right" so "we can do what we like" attitude. Its all connected, just like the dishonesty that has been discussed in this post. The whole thing is grounded in dishonesty and it flows through the group. This does not mean everyone is dishonest within the 2x2's. Our Bishop is a very very honest person. And when I started to discuss this with him ages ago he politely denied it, but now he can see it just as well as I can. We may differ on many things but he displays the Character of Christ to which I repsect him and his wife greatly, but many do not for various reason, mainly envy though. I guess my beef is for supposedly being the only way and the "truth" there sure is a truck load of dishonesty involved. This is not God!. This is the Character/Nature of Satan. Rant over 😁 By dishonest hypocrites, I dont mean they break silly 2x2 rules like watching TV or having a beer. I mean continually dishonest in their daily conduct, For example, happily ripping someone off and boastibg about it. Stealing things even if they have little to no value, Not loving thy neighbors, fighting like cats and dogs with their own family ect ect. Fancy all that poop Well that comprehensive explanantion settles it then. How could we ever disagree with that......
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Post by speak on Jun 13, 2020 1:48:28 GMT -5
Fancy all that poop Well that comprehensive explanantion settles it then. How could we ever disagree with that...... Smart fellow
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Post by chuck on Jun 13, 2020 2:42:21 GMT -5
Well that comprehensive explanantion settles it then. How could we ever disagree with that...... Smart fellow No not smart, just fed up with hypocrisy. Especially hypocrisy by charlatans.
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Post by speak on Jun 13, 2020 3:42:51 GMT -5
Smart fellow No not smart, just fed up with hypocrisy. Especially hypocrisy by charlatans. You're right, not so smart
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 4:28:05 GMT -5
Is there any public records that shows the dissolution of this charity and how the assets were liquidated? I think that charities in most places are required to file paperwork that shows why the thing was dissolved and to certify that the assets were distributed to other organizations with similar charitable goals and activities to ensure that the charitable purpose continues and that the assets don't get diverted to some other use. Maybe they just put up some other organization to dodge the liabilities and scrutiny maybe?? Ross has already responded to this post, and is far more qualified in financial matters than I am. But just a couple of points and Ross will tell me if I am wrong. The Christian Conventions of Victoria charity was not a public one as such, funds would be used by the 2x2 for its own requirements. Their purpose for it was to help spread Christian teachings. No harm in that, good work. As Ross mentioned Charities are exempt from Tax. We have a 10% GST in Australia and that is added to most items you buy. Charities can apply for refund. Nothing wrong with that, all eligible organisations doing good work appreciate the benefit. All Churches would claim it, crazy if you don't. As for public reporting it is a complex issue, the requirements are on the net. You would have to be an Accountant or Ross to understand them. Depends on Charities activity, turn over per year,etc. My guess is that CCofV would not have to make public disclosure, or require independent audit. But I do think a financial report should be give to their own members. In the time we were 2x2's never ever saw a financial report. As past donors to the Charity we would be interested, but will not hold my breath waiting for it. Would think CCofV reason being revoked would be voluntary. It can be because of breach of the law or criminal activity. Think it would be good manners to tell their members why. I don't expect any announcement, maybe we will hear from an insider. I know that Bill Carroll used to make a donation to Dandenong Hospital, because it was used by Workers. I know after the tragic death of Vi Crawford a donation was made. That has to be commended. There could have been other donations made but of course we will never know. Strange why it should be a secret. As for the Trust there was concern about having funds in one pot. The Trust Fund would have been fairly substantial. When Evan Jones was Overseer he said they were well off, quite financial. I was told that it would be broken up and put in Workers personal bank accounts. A Barrister was looking into it, no doubt it would have to be done within the Law. Gone are the days when Workers go out without script or purse. Kit now for a Worker would be, Smart Phone, Laptop, Credit Card, Bank Account, Car, Passport and Tooth Brush. Yet they will still say we are doing it the way Christ did. A bit of a joke.
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Post by chuck on Jun 13, 2020 7:44:46 GMT -5
No not smart, just fed up with hypocrisy. Especially hypocrisy by charlatans. You're right, not so smart Speak as usual you offer nothing to the conversation. If you added something other than jibes we might actually learn something.
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magpies39plus
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WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
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Post by magpies39plus on Jun 13, 2020 8:08:25 GMT -5
G'day Redback,Paul was writting to the Corinthians when he said "Do not be yoked together to unbelievers". The young Youth Pastor,going around to as many congregations speaking about living for Jesus today,leading one of the beach missions teams,studying the book of Luke at a Theo's College,spend another vacation in Somalia to support the mission teams,refugees,burying the dead. He is a beautiful "BELIEVING"young man. NO 2x2 Young adult lady would be able to marry this believing young man. Because they don't want to know what he Paul was meaning when he wrote to the Corinthians? Corinth was full of Idols and gods to worship,they were not evil,but many would not let their worship of these things go.So don't attach yourself to one who was remaining as an Idol worshiper and not accept the real God. So even if one fell in love with this believing young man,it would be crushed and you would have to only marry someone from the remnant of the 2x2 sect. That 2bee lot are so ignorant that they have believed,taught,slandered believers that their God is of a false religion. They have for over a century followed part verses and cliches',and never had the fortitude (guts)to cross reference,question,personally study the meaning of each reason why the should follow such a small portion of scripture taught by a "Preacher"only ministry. Sad isn't it they actually turn nasty,quite unchristian I believe if you question them for a biblical support of their doctrine,and interpretations,why only way illusiveness/exclusiveness,non-acceptance of others of faith,classing them as of false religions,ignore the social/welfare injustices when the scriptures are very commanding in this area. OH,of course they have just revoked their "Charity Status",well I suppose they actually have never looked after any of us many victims of their preacher CSA (Child yes Child sexual abuse)by both male/female perpetrators. Especially those who have suffered mental health issues,or the families of because of this suicides. Magpie
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magpies39plus
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WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
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Post by magpies39plus on Jun 13, 2020 8:18:44 GMT -5
OH yes,The 3x trustees,Colin Storer,Alan Bird,Arthur Robertson,of course they must give all the answers to name registration,the charity revoking and all the financial documents for the last few years,if they don't it becomes a legal matter.They must!!!or it is illegal,don't be a usual 2x2 demand and obey the laws of the land. That would be the right thing to do would'nt it Gil,Speak,and Wally..Magpie
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 8:32:08 GMT -5
OH yes,The 3x trustees,Colin Storer,Alan Bird,Arthur Robertson,of course they must give all the answers to name registration,the charity revoking and all the financial documents for the last few years,if they don't it becomes a legal matter.They must!!!or it is illegal,don't be a usual 2x2 demand and obey the laws of the land. That would be the right thing to do would'nt it Gil,Speak,and Wally..Magpie i don't remember Christ providing financial statements to the gov't of rome/israel nor to believers...he did say to pay taxes but even that wasn't the point of that verse....i wait for you to show scripture where he did provide financial statements...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 14:45:07 GMT -5
I smile to myself when 2x2's say we should be doing things the same as the era around 30AD. They seem to ignore the fact it is now 2020, and times change, that affect lifestyle. Laws change, society standards change, technology changes and of course there are so many other factors that bring about change.
They accept that the kit for a Worker now is Smart Phone, Laptop, Credit Card, Bank Account, Car, Passport and Tooth Brush. Christ had none of that, well maybe the Toothbrush. Not that we expect them to get around on their Ass the way Christ did. It makes sense to use things that help to make life easier. But then don't say Christ didn't provide financial statements, so we won't. It is expected in this day and age, keeps people honest. Recently someone used my Credit card number to spend $1200 at an Apple store in America. I was able to prove to the Bank that it was not me and the transaction was cancelled. Just imagine if the bank refused to provide statements, I would never have known about that corruption. Financial statements help prevent corruption.
You need checks and balances in place. Reluctantly 2x2's have taken action re CSA, not enough but at least it is a start. The same thing is required for financial reporting. No need to remind people as to what happened in Alberta,it has been well documented. I assure you there have been many other undetected instances of the same thing. Of course we will hear, "There are always bad apples" or "They are only human". Not good enough, you need checks and balances in place to stop apples going rotten, or people being irresponsible humans.
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magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
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Post by magpies39plus on Jun 13, 2020 18:29:38 GMT -5
Wally,Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. Magp[e
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Post by chuck on Jun 13, 2020 18:42:56 GMT -5
@redback and rely on scripture literally, that was interpreted in the 1600's in which it was impossible for the intent and hebrew perspective to be all brought across in the translation to the english language.
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