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Post by chuck on Jun 14, 2020 8:45:02 GMT -5
You are so wrong Speak, PM your address to me and I will send you a copy of our bank statement. You will be disappointed because we are Pensioners, all used for food, accommodation and services. We have nothing to hide nor should the 2x2's. To stop corruption transparency is needed, not secrecy. You say we are nosy Parkers, don't forget we used to be donors. 2x2 management owe recompense to all the victims of CSA. Obviously steps have been taken to dodge their responsibilities. Why???. We know they were financial, Evan Jones said so. It is a fair question to ask, where has it gone. Remember Alberta. Sorry, forgot, mustn't talk about that, 2x2's conveniently ignore history. Talking about "nosy Parkers", you've hit the nail on the head as to why the Parkers (Doug and Helen that is) chose the title "The Secret Sect". If you ask the following very basic questions about how money is handled, the responses (or lack of them) are quite interesting: 1. How much money is given each year? 2. How is it applied? 3. If there is money left over, how is it invested? 4. Who manages the money and how to do ensure good stewardship? 5. What internal controls do you have in place to ensure that money is handled properly? 6. Do you produce a set of financial accounts? Are they independently audited? 7. Do you or the Trustees pay tax on any income - given you are not registered as a church? If not, why not? It doesn't interest me now, but when I was part of the church I tried to ask these questions - as an accountant by profession I had a natural interest and as a Christian I assumed that any church worth their salt would want transparency, accountability, good stewardship and would be very happy to answer any questions. I didn't get very far..... I'm amused by the response you got above referring to "our bank statements". Any elder (unless they're a Trustee) wouldn't know anything more about how money is handled than the average lay member and has absolutely zero access to bank statements. At least it's been confirmed that they hold money in bank accounts which generate "our bank statements". If you had seen "our bank statements" relating to at least one state in Australia you would have seen many millions of dollars in the account. The reason that there is no transparency or accountability when it comes to money is simple - millions of dollars sitting in bank accounts does not sit well with their teaching such as "we're not a registered church like the other churches" and "our preachers go our in faith, have nothing, aren't paid a salary etc - unlike those false ministers". As a lay member I do have no idea about "our bank statements" but nothing would suprise me now. Do you actually know if it's millions or a educated guess?.
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Post by chuck on Jun 14, 2020 8:52:00 GMT -5
Speak as usual you offer nothing to the conversation. If you added something other than jibes we might actually learn something. I don't offer anything to people who write so much poop. I see...... And you've shown us why as well I see....... Crickets.........
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 15:23:47 GMT -5
oh and what would that have been? Oh I don't know, a cross maybe, or fed to the lions or some sort of blood sport or a lance up the date. History books, even the bible paints a picture of horendous events in the day. The worlds getting better wally. thats not the equivalent of tear gas..get real the world is getting better for those who wait to follow the beast....
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Jun 14, 2020 21:48:01 GMT -5
Talking about "nosy Parkers", you've hit the nail on the head as to why the Parkers (Doug and Helen that is) chose the title "The Secret Sect". I'm amused by the response you got above referring to "our bank statements". Any elder (unless they're a Trustee) wouldn't know anything more about how money is handled than the average lay member and has absolutely zero access to bank statements. At least it's been confirmed that they hold money in bank accounts which generate "our bank statements". If you had seen "our bank statements" relating to at least one state in Australia you would have seen many millions of dollars in the account. The reason that there is no transparency or accountability when it comes to money is simple - millions of dollars sitting in bank accounts does not sit well with their teaching such as "we're not a registered church like the other churches" and "our preachers go our in faith, have nothing, aren't paid a salary etc - unlike those false ministers". As a lay member I do have no idea about "our bank statements" but nothing would suprise me now. Do you actually know if it's millions or a educated guess?. It's real and not just a few million - many millions. I won't reveal which state on here as it would potentially undermine a source of information. Remember, as @redback said, the then Head Worker of Victoria, Evan Jones made the following written public statement in an affidavit to Police in 1994 "Our organisation is financially well off. The funds are controlled by a Trust Fund with the Trustees being Arthur ROBINSON, Alan BIRD and Ian GUNST, who are elders of the Church. I am in charge of the Trustees and have the final say as to where the funds will be sent or spent. Once I make that decision, the Trustees withdraw the funds and give me a bank draft for the amount required in various areas as requested by me." Most of the larger sums of money come from estates - I am aware of a few estates, each of around $1mUSD, left to workers. The Trustees simply give a receipt to the executors.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 22:28:46 GMT -5
As a lay member I do have no idea about "our bank statements" but nothing would suprise me now. Do you actually know if it's millions or a educated guess?. It's real and not just a few million - many millions. I won't reveal which state on here as it undermine a source of information. Remember, as @redback said, the then Head Worker of Victoria, Evan Jones made the following written public statement in an affidavit to Police in 1994 "Our organisation is financially well off. The funds are controlled by a Trust Fund with the Trustees being Arthur ROBINSON, Alan BIRD and Ian GUNST, who are elders of the Church. I am in charge of the Trustees and have the final say as to where the funds will be sent or spent. Once I make that decision, the Trustees withdraw the funds and give me a bank draft for the amount required in various areas as requested by me." Most of the larger sums of money come from estates - I am aware of a few estates, each of around $1mUSD, left to workers. The Trustees simply give a receipt to the executors. Hhhhelp us. Seems it ‘pays’ to be a worker.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 22:33:28 GMT -5
one should note that Judas was worried about who had what asset and where/who it was going to...
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Jun 14, 2020 22:46:30 GMT -5
one should note that Judas was worried about who had what asset and where/who it was going to... It would be more correct to say that Judas thought that it was a waste of money for expensive perfume to be used to anoint Jesus and he thought that it should be sold and given to the poor. Not long afterwards, it was clear that Judas was interested in his own personal gain for betraying Jesus.
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Post by fixit on Jun 14, 2020 22:54:39 GMT -5
It's real and not just a few million - many millions. I won't reveal which state on here as it undermine a source of information. Remember, as @redback said, the then Head Worker of Victoria, Evan Jones made the following written public statement in an affidavit to Police in 1994 "Our organisation is financially well off. The funds are controlled by a Trust Fund with the Trustees being Arthur ROBINSON, Alan BIRD and Ian GUNST, who are elders of the Church. I am in charge of the Trustees and have the final say as to where the funds will be sent or spent. Once I make that decision, the Trustees withdraw the funds and give me a bank draft for the amount required in various areas as requested by me." Most of the larger sums of money come from estates - I am aware of a few estates, each of around $1mUSD, left to workers. The Trustees simply give a receipt to the executors. Hhhhelp us. Seems it ‘pays’ to be a worker. What can they spend it on though, besides convention grounds? Personal items, dining out, travel, and a car. Most other careers would give better returns in terms of this world's goods.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 23:11:33 GMT -5
Thanks Ross for providing that information, as usual it is spot on. A close relative of mine left the bulk of her substantial estate to the Church. A member of the Family who was a Worker was provided for, but some non- professing members got Zilch. And of course this was only one of the many estates that went into CCofV Trust.
Also remember that the Dandenong Convention Ground was acquired by the Government to build a Freeway. It was a valuable property and would have returned a good dividend. Even though half the funds were lost, because of a dishonest Solicitor and Land Developer, there would have been a reasonable amount left.
Because there are such large amounts involved it is imperative that there be transparency and proper reporting and disclosure. I am surprised that the 2x2's have been so lax, seeing that there has been instances of corruption in the past. We are aware that 2x2's are only human, no better or worse than everybody else. But you don't deliberately leave temptation in the way, somebody will take advantage of it. You take steps to prevent it.
Ross and I have both had experience as Treasurers in other Churches. We know how it should be done, Ross more than myself, he is a qualified Accountant, I was only a Postmaster. So we do know what we are talking about, and only too willing to show the 2x2's the way it should be done.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 23:14:42 GMT -5
Judas was a rotten apple, and Nathan has indicated that there are an few within the 2x2's. A normal human situation.
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Post by speak on Jun 14, 2020 23:57:19 GMT -5
Hhhhelp us. Seems it ‘pays’ to be a worker. What can they spend it on though, besides convention grounds? Personal items, dining out, travel, and a car. Most other careers would give better returns in terms of this world's goods. Most other churches.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 0:11:08 GMT -5
No more or less than other Churches Speak, much the same. Certainly they cannot claim without script or purse
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 15, 2020 0:22:25 GMT -5
Thanks Ross for providing that information, as usual it is spot on. A close relative of mine left the bulk of her substantial estate to the Church. A member of the Family who was a Worker was provided for, but some non- professing members got Zilch. And of course this was only one of the many estates that went into CCofV Trust. Also remember that the Dandenong Convention Ground was acquired by the Government to build a Freeway. It was a valuable property and would have returned a good dividend. Even though half the funds were lost, because of a dishonest Solicitor and Land Developer, there would have been a reasonable amount left. Because there are such large amounts involved it is imperative that there be transparency and proper reporting and disclosure. I am surprised that the 2x2's have been so lax, seeing that there has been instances of corruption in the past. We are aware that 2x2's are only human, no better or worse than everybody else. But you don't deliberately leave temptation in the way, somebody will take advantage of it. You take steps to prevent it. Ross and I have both had experience as Treasurers in other Churches. We know how it should be done, Ross more than myself, he is a qualified Accountant, I was only a Postmaster. So we do know what we are talking about, and only too willing to show the 2x2's the way it should be done. I think that a majority of the friends are of the belief that the ministry operates on a kind of unsystematic and random supply of unsolicited donations resulting from the promptings of the laity by the Holy Sprit -- the proof being that the workers never solicit donations. It's naive (though comforting) to believe it's such a reliably spontaneous work by the Holy Spirit.
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Post by speak on Jun 15, 2020 4:14:12 GMT -5
One’ s now thinking those spontaineous small donations prompted by HS. were not honestly needed. So really HS, maybe should not of been prompting humble anonymous donations given by individuals. Well those humble donations have allowed people in other countries to receive the message they were looking for without a burden being put on them, I am so glad that contributions I have made have helped in some little way.
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Post by fixit on Jun 15, 2020 4:49:46 GMT -5
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Post by mountain on Jun 15, 2020 6:40:42 GMT -5
I'm confuded by all this. Am I supposed to believe the sect has huge bank accounts or trusts involving millions of dollars (or whatever) and do not go about with a common money bag like the early disciples did?
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Post by nathan on Jun 15, 2020 9:04:56 GMT -5
I'm confuded by all this. Am I supposed to believe the sect has huge bank accounts or trusts involving millions of dollars (or whatever) and do not go about with a common money bag like the early disciples did? Back in Jesus days they didn't have banks so, Judas and some of the apostles had to carry the money in bags. It's very difficulties to carry millions dollars in coins these days in the trunks of the cars. Money in the banks, make some interests.
The friends in the fields provide foods, houses, cars for the workers. The millions trust fund pay bills for the workers health/medical bills, conventions grounds gov't regulation/safety upgrades, money overseas for workers spending, and so on...
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Post by iam on Jun 15, 2020 13:16:29 GMT -5
one should note that Judas was worried about who had what asset and where/who it was going to... More like.....their will always have to be a Judas....one that “holds the bag”. There are many Judas’s. Scary. But keep defending the Judas’s by all means! Jesus is paying attention.
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Post by iam on Jun 15, 2020 13:25:29 GMT -5
One’ s now thinking those spontaineous small donations prompted by HS. were not honestly needed. So really HS, maybe should not of been prompting humble anonymous donations given by individuals. Well those humble donations have allowed people in other countries to receive the message they were looking for without a burden being put on them, I am so glad that contributions I have made have helped in some little way. Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Jesus spoke those words to the religious leaders of His people! Pretty hypocritical to be the true servants of Christ and have those bank accounts when Jesus taught so much to the contrary.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 13:28:38 GMT -5
That is fine Nathan as I have said we don't expect them to get around on their Ass. But please don't say we are doing it in the same way as Jesus and the Disciples did. That is called lying.
And seeing that the CCofV Charity and Trust were being closed would it not have been a good time to do something about compensation for the many CSA victims. You may have missed Ross's post earlier in this thread, so it is worth repeating. Quote:
"It is definitely to do with potential compensation payouts. I am aware of some lawyers that were circling it.
After the 60M program went to air a number who were representing victims within the 2x2 church contacted me.
For transparency, I also made senior workers aware that people would make claims.
There are hundreds of victims of Child Sexual Abuse within the 2x2 church in Australia (a fair number committed by workers). Many would prefer an apology from the ministry on behalf of workers and elders who have sexually abused minors within the church.
I have heard that there is little intention to deal with past cases so an apology does not appear to be on the horizon.
As a result, pressure will continue to be applied at every level.
If people preach repentance from sins, it is pointless if they don't practise it.
Jesus spoke to the people and his disciples about the Pharisees (Matthew 23:3):
"So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach".
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Post by iam on Jun 15, 2020 13:43:25 GMT -5
What can they spend it on though, besides convention grounds? Personal items, dining out, travel, and a car. Most other careers would give better returns in terms of this world's goods. Most other churches. You’re comparing us to “most other churches”?? We’re supposed to be the ONLY true way. There’s no comparison! So why are we NOT following scriptures in SO many areas and using every excuse in the book for that? Such hypocrisy and so many to justify it. Sick. So what am I doing here then? Well, Jesus didn’t ditch his people even though they were so evil and thought they were so right. They rejected Him not vice versa. I was raised in this. These are my (mostly Pharisee) people just like they were then. Some have been cast out of the way. Jesus said He’s coming for his outcasts. It’s not a bad place to be. Some have become so neglected and uncared for by the church (us) that they have left voluntarily. Some have fallen among thieves so to speak and are too damaged to keep on going. The strong are supposed to support the weak. This hasn’t been happening most of my life. A little leaven leavens the whole lump and so it’s never an individual problem it’s a whole church problem.
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Post by iam on Jun 15, 2020 14:03:24 GMT -5
Hi Olea, aren't you saying the same as magpie. He's praising the good works of the Salvation army comparing it to the 2x2s who didn't give them a penny. How do you know he didnt give $000s to ??..crippled children the next day. There are certainly charities I wont give to (World Vision is one) because of their administration. We cant give to all charities a d actually we are allowed to choose who and why. I will defend the kindness and compassion of many of the 2x2s. What I read about here is definitely not what I have witnessed. My parents were loved and cared for(as were all the elderly/ needy in that area) in an amazing way by their 2x2 community.The rest home my mother was in constantly told us of her wonderfully caring friends. I witnessed this when I was growing up too. Many here are quick to generalize and judge. No one is criticizing the kindness and compassion of the 2x2s. It’s the many unkindnesses and uncompassionate deeds of the 2x2s. IJesus taught if just one of us is experiencing these things, that’s what it is to Jesus. Why is no one examining the life and teachings of Jesus that actually go against of much of what we do. Many that have given up....we’re gonna be responsible for on the judgment day because we make excuses for not following scriptures. I have witnessed MASSIVE damage because the chief priests and Pharisees and elders of today did not follow scriptures.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 14:05:58 GMT -5
Thank you Iam, well said. God bless you. There are many good people within the 2x2's, and we ex's feel so sorry for them. The Overseers need to hear their cry.
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Post by nathan on Jun 15, 2020 14:11:53 GMT -5
That is fine Nathan as I have said we don't expect them to get around on their Ass. But please don't say we are doing it in the same way as Jesus and the Disciples did. That is called lying. And seeing that the CCofV Charity and Trust were being closed would it not have been a good time to do something about compensation for the many CSA victims. You may have missed Ross's post earlier in this thread, so it is worth repeating. Quote: "It is definitely to do with potential compensation payouts. I am aware of some lawyers that were circling it. After the 60M program went to air a number who were representing victims within the 2x2 church contacted me. For transparency, I also made senior workers aware that people would make claims. There are hundreds of victims of Child Sexual Abuse within the 2x2 church in Australia (a fair number committed by workers). Many would prefer an apology from the ministry on behalf of workers and elders who have sexually abused minors within the church. I have heard that there is little intention to deal with past cases so an apology does not appear to be on the horizon. As a result, pressure will continue to be applied at every level. If people preach repentance from sins, it is pointless if they don't practise it. Jesus spoke to the people and his disciples about the Pharisees (Matthew 23:3): "So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach". ** I have been there done that and that how it done. yes there similarities like in the days of Jesus and apostles had done it. You just don't believe it. Well, I hope the current overseers learned from their older generations of overseers and workers mistakes, errors in handling on CSA. I PRAY the current overseers and workers follow the latest guidelines on CSA and that is report all cases to authority and try NOT to cover it up like they did in the past, Or try to handle CSA cases themselves.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 15, 2020 14:14:44 GMT -5
One’ s now thinking those spontaineous small donations prompted by HS. were not honestly needed. So really HS, maybe should not of been prompting humble anonymous donations given by individuals. Well those humble donations have allowed people in other countries to receive the message they were looking for without a burden being put on them, I am so glad that contributions I have made have helped in some little way. I wouldn't disagree with you on that point. But that doesn't change others' perceptions of how ministerial financing operates. My experience is with individuals who personally support workers oversees without having it pass through the overseer.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 15, 2020 14:16:22 GMT -5
I'm confuded by all this. Am I supposed to believe the sect has huge bank accounts or trusts involving millions of dollars (or whatever) and do not go about with a common money bag like the early disciples did? Yes, if you want to know the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2020 14:30:46 GMT -5
Sure Nathan great that policy has been implemented for the future. It took a 60 Minutes program in Australia to make them do that. And that only happened because of the good work done by Ross Bowden, a very sincere, compassionate Christian person.
But the Church have a responsibility to make amends for the past damage caused. With the winding up of the CCofV Charity, was thought given to contribute to the National Redress Scheme for CSA Victims. This scheme has been set up by our Government and we should be told if the 2x2's are taking part in it.
Leading questions I know, but one way or another we will get the answers.
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Post by fixit on Jun 15, 2020 14:41:14 GMT -5
Redback, doesn't the AOOB mandate proper sleeping hours for its members?
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