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Post by chuck on Apr 13, 2020 8:29:36 GMT -5
It seems yourself and wally cannot distinguish between all are saved from sin, the ransom price has been paid!, but not all recieve the gift and use it. All means All. thats not really whats in dispute whats in dispute is you implying someone could take the mark and still be saved which is clearly not biblical...even your JW friends don't say that....nice try though So wally people who took the mark for what ever reason to trade in the agora, but then believed in Christ or just made a bad judgement call and repented, you are saying there is no forgiveness for them!. Can you show me where it specifically say's that?.
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Post by chuck on Apr 13, 2020 8:33:11 GMT -5
All wally, All!. If you recieve the gift what part of All is not covered?. Chuck opined earlier: No idea of the level of opression concerning the mark and revelation. True 2x2 form.
The finished work of Christ would have covered a person with the mark if they recieved it Nathan. The power of the blood covers ALL sin.
What was the 'work' of Christ! This needs to be understood before we attempt to interpret the 'finished work of Christ!' Read Leviticus 16, Hebrews 10. One sacrifice, once for all, before the foundation of the world.
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Post by mountain on Apr 13, 2020 10:04:46 GMT -5
Chuck opined earlier: No idea of the level of opression concerning the mark and revelation. True 2x2 form.
The finished work of Christ would have covered a person with the mark if they recieved it Nathan. The power of the blood covers ALL sin.
What was the 'work' of Christ! This needs to be understood before we attempt to interpret the 'finished work of Christ!' Read Leviticus 16, Hebrews 10. One sacrifice, once for all, before the foundation of the world. The power of the blood of Christ on its own can avail nothing. The finished work, ie that on the cross was a provision. Most people will die in their sins and the blood of Christ will have no effect on them. It is those who 'believe' in the Lord Jesus as the Son of God who will receive the cleansing of Christ's shed blood. This brings us back to that old cherry. What does it mean to 'believe?' This far more than an acknowledgement. It is following Jesus in the way, truth and the life that leads to the Father. Believing is following, not mere acknowledgement or tradition. Matthew 15.8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 12:28:28 GMT -5
thats not really whats in dispute whats in dispute is you implying someone could take the mark and still be saved which is clearly not biblical...even your JW friends don't say that....nice try though So wally people who took the mark for what ever reason to trade in the agora, but then believed in Christ or just made a bad judgement call and repented, you are saying there is no forgiveness for them!. Can you show me where it specifically say's that?. read revelation about the mark, it clearly states that those that take the mark end up in the pit, it says nothing about anyone repenting of taking the mark it says nothing about the blood of christ redeeming them from doing that it says nothing about someone taking it by accident or anything else you can imagine...end of story
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Post by Grant on Apr 13, 2020 15:07:24 GMT -5
So wally people who took the mark for what ever reason to trade in the agora, but then believed in Christ or just made a bad judgement call and repented, you are saying there is no forgiveness for them!. Can you show me where it specifically say's that?. read revelation about the mark, it clearly states that those that take the mark end up in the pit, it says nothing about anyone repenting of taking the mark it says nothing about the blood of christ redeeming them from doing that it says nothing about someone taking it by accident or anything else you can imagine...end of story According to some, people will be saved during the great tribulation, so how can that be if they've taken the mark? The truth is no one has the answers about these things. Chuck, are you a JW as some claim? There are things you say which are totally opposite to JW teachings.
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Post by chuck on Apr 13, 2020 19:03:41 GMT -5
Read Leviticus 16, Hebrews 10. One sacrifice, once for all, before the foundation of the world. The power of the blood of Christ on its own can avail nothing. The finished work, ie that on the cross was a provision. Most people will die in their sins and the blood of Christ will have no effect on them. It is those who 'believe' in the Lord Jesus as the Son of God who will receive the cleansing of Christ's shed blood. This brings us back to that old cherry. What does it mean to 'believe?' This far more than an acknowledgement. It is following Jesus in the way, truth and the life that leads to the Father. Believing is following, not mere acknowledgement or tradition. Matthew 15.8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. Both Leviticus and Hebrews say otherwise. Im still wondering what you can do that the blood cannot?. What finishing touches can you add to the non perfect blood/sacrifice of Christ!. Why do you want the priest to stand back up?. You right in a way, the blood doesn't avail anything, if it did it means Jesus's work is incomplete, thankfully his blood is so much more powerful than that!. Jesus said "Tetelestai". So his blood doesn't avail, it is everything!, it is complete!, the rasom price paid in full!. Can you believe it!. Anything added to the blood is putting God in debt to you. Romans 4:4. and trampling on the blood of the lamb. The lamb was slain from the creation of the world!. Many christians trouble is they been told for a very long time it is a transaction. It's not. It's a Gift!. Paid in full!. Believe in that and that is a faith that works!.
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Post by chuck on Apr 13, 2020 19:20:32 GMT -5
read revelation about the mark, it clearly states that those that take the mark end up in the pit, it says nothing about anyone repenting of taking the mark it says nothing about the blood of christ redeeming them from doing that it says nothing about someone taking it by accident or anything else you can imagine...end of story According to some, people will be saved during the great tribulation, so how can that be if they've taken the mark? The truth is no one has the answers about these things. Chuck, are you a JW as some claim? There are things you say which are totally opposite to JW teachings. No but we know God, and wally's god(himself) has no forgiveness for those who make mistakes. But we know God will not turn someone away even if they've made mistakes. I've had JW's come to my door before, does that make me JW?, maybe its easily caught like covid-19?. No I'm not JW.
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Post by chuck on Apr 13, 2020 19:48:29 GMT -5
read revelation about the mark, it clearly states that those that take the mark end up in the pit, it says nothing about anyone repenting of taking the mark it says nothing about the blood of christ redeeming them from doing that it says nothing about someone taking it by accident or anything else you can imagine...end of story According to some, people will be saved during the great tribulation, so how can that be if they've taken the mark? The truth is no one has the answers about these things. Chuck, are you a JW as some claim? There are things you say which are totally opposite to JW teachings. read revelation about the mark, it clearly states that those that take the mark end up in the pit, it says nothing about anyone repenting of taking the mark it says nothing about the blood of christ redeeming them from doing that it says nothing about someone taking it by accident or anything else you can imagine...end of story According to some, people will be saved during the great tribulation, so how can that be if they've taken the mark? The truth is no one has the answers about these things. Chuck, are you a JW as some claim? There are things you say which are totally opposite to JW teachings. Actually If you read wallys verse and a few more you find some interesting things. "for ever and ever" does not mean indefinitely in the original language. It could quite easily mean the period they are in hell on earth, or the period they are worshipping the beast, no where does it say they cannot repent and that it is not a present reality. The smoke rises in the presence of the Lamb, not in hell, not in the lake of fire. If it's in the presence of the lamb it is here and now, not then and their. Smoke is a symbol or tormemt, not literal smoke. Wally reads it as the lamb is in hell and torturing people for ever!. Wally, and Nathans god for that matter (themselves) is quite a compelling god to follow.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 20:17:40 GMT -5
read revelation about the mark, it clearly states that those that take the mark end up in the pit, it says nothing about anyone repenting of taking the mark it says nothing about the blood of christ redeeming them from doing that it says nothing about someone taking it by accident or anything else you can imagine...end of story According to some, people will be saved during the great tribulation, so how can that be if they've taken the mark? The truth is no one has the answers about these things. Chuck, are you a JW as some claim? There are things you say which are totally opposite to JW teachings. revelation, while its says "All" will take the mark in the very next verse it says save THOSE who've taken the mark will be able to buy or sell or do anything...this leads me to believe that SOME won't those might be those you are claiming that might be saved near the end...
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Post by mountain on Apr 14, 2020 11:25:51 GMT -5
The power of the blood of Christ on its own can avail nothing. The finished work, ie that on the cross was a provision. Most people will die in their sins and the blood of Christ will have no effect on them. It is those who 'believe' in the Lord Jesus as the Son of God who will receive the cleansing of Christ's shed blood. This brings us back to that old cherry. What does it mean to 'believe?' This far more than an acknowledgement. It is following Jesus in the way, truth and the life that leads to the Father. Believing is following, not mere acknowledgement or tradition. Matthew 15.8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. Both Leviticus and Hebrews say otherwise. Im still wondering what you can do that the blood cannot?. What finishing touches can you add to the non perfect blood/sacrifice of Christ!. Why do you want the priest to stand back up?. You right in a way, the blood doesn't avail anything, if it did it means Jesus's work is incomplete, thankfully his blood is so much more powerful than that!. Jesus said "Tetelestai". So his blood doesn't avail, it is everything!, it is complete!, the rasom price paid in full!. Can you believe it!. Anything added to the blood is putting God in debt to you. Romans 4:4. and trampling on the blood of the lamb. The lamb was slain from the creation of the world!. When Jesus said it was finished, he was not just referring to his impending death on the cross (which hadn't happened yet), he was referring to all that God his Heavenly father had commanded him to do. Part of that 'ALL' was Jesus showing us the way, truth and life that leads to the Father. The shed blood of Christ atones for our sins, without which we can never gain entry to heaven. It is the Christ-life along with our sins forgiven which makes us acceptable to God. The ransom was paid for our sins. Many christians trouble is they been told for a very long time it is a transaction. It's not. It's a Gift!. Paid in full!. Believe in that and that is a faith that works!.
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Post by chuck on Apr 16, 2020 8:56:48 GMT -5
Both Leviticus and Hebrews say otherwise. Im still wondering what you can do that the blood cannot?. What finishing touches can you add to the non perfect blood/sacrifice of Christ!. Why do you want the priest to stand back up?. You right in a way, the blood doesn't avail anything, if it did it means Jesus's work is incomplete, thankfully his blood is so much more powerful than that!. Jesus said "Tetelestai". So his blood doesn't avail, it is everything!, it is complete!, the rasom price paid in full!. Can you believe it!. Anything added to the blood is putting God in debt to you. Romans 4:4. and trampling on the blood of the lamb. The lamb was slain from the creation of the world!. When Jesus said it was finished, he was not just referring to his impending death on the cross (which hadn't happened yet), he was referring to all that God his Heavenly father had commanded him to do. Part of that 'ALL' was Jesus showing us the way, truth and life that leads to the Father. The shed blood of Christ atones for our sins, without which we can never gain entry to heaven. It is the Christ-life along with our sins forgiven which makes us acceptable to God. The ransom was paid for our sins. Many christians trouble is they been told for a very long time it is a transaction. It's not. It's a Gift!. Paid in full!. Believe in that and that is a faith that works!. No that is boasting you have made yourself right before God. If believing in Christ's sacrifice alone cant make you right before God you have one other option. Follow the law perfectly. Good luck!. You cannot establish your own righteousness, that includes living the Christ life as you put it. Although that is not a bad thing.
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Post by mountain on Apr 16, 2020 11:21:30 GMT -5
No that is boasting you have made yourself right before God. If believing in Christ's sacrifice alone cant make you right before God you have one other option. Follow the law perfectly. Good luck!. You cannot establish your own righteousness, that includes living the Christ life as you put it. Although that is not a bad thing. Every Christian believes in Christ's sacrifice and it's atoning power. I think you need to brush up on your interpretive skills? How you derive boasting from the humble walking in the footsteps of Christ beats me. We are made righteous by two inter-dependent things: 1) the atoning blood of Christ AND 2) Following Jesus in his footsteps. The shed blood was for the whole world, but it's cleansing power is only available to those who 'believe' in Jesus. If you get this far you will then need to ask yourself....'what does it really mean to believe in Jesus?' It's God whose workings within us which transforms us into the image of his only begotten Son. I will leave off there because even a young child can understand that. However, I was particularly impressed with your confession that you ate rice. I don't think that I am the only one who has noticed the liberation in your posts since you found the courage to answer the question about rice featuring in your dietry needs. However, this welcome state, for which I'm sure most board members are glad to see, just might be resulting in an over zealous expressive state? This is understandable but it requires careful management. Please don't give up though. It's worth the effort!
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Post by fixit on Apr 16, 2020 14:02:20 GMT -5
No that is boasting you have made yourself right before God. If believing in Christ's sacrifice alone cant make you right before God you have one other option. Follow the law perfectly. Good luck!. You cannot establish your own righteousness, that includes living the Christ life as you put it. Although that is not a bad thing. Chuck, have you figured out what you can get away with and still be saved?
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Post by chuck on Apr 16, 2020 17:39:43 GMT -5
No that is boasting you have made yourself right before God. If believing in Christ's sacrifice alone cant make you right before God you have one other option. Follow the law perfectly. Good luck!. You cannot establish your own righteousness, that includes living the Christ life as you put it. Although that is not a bad thing. Chuck, have you figured out what you can get away with and still be saved? 1 If you have to ask that question you have missed the point. 2 you assume people have to meet your standard to be saved. That's Judgement! 3 you think Grace as a free gift is dangerous and is a licence to do what ever you want, refer back to 1. 4 you think salvation, eternal life, heaven is only to do with after natural death hence the drive to do better, strive harder, die daily ect ect. It's not. Study the hebrew people/culture. You can exprience it all now!. 5 If you feel the need to ask this question you perhaps need to re-read the bible in this light of "what you can get away with", prepared to be horrified of what people got away with in the bible to your standards. Then perhaps ot might make sense that its not about what you can get away with. I would reply with a question of my own. How do you know when you've done enough to be saved and enjoy heaven in the afterlife?. What is your standard?.
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Post by chuck on Apr 16, 2020 18:28:42 GMT -5
No that is boasting you have made yourself right before God. If believing in Christ's sacrifice alone cant make you right before God you have one other option. Follow the law perfectly. Good luck!. You cannot establish your own righteousness, that includes living the Christ life as you put it. Although that is not a bad thing. Every Christian believes in Christ's sacrifice and it's atoning power. I think you need to brush up on your interpretive skills? How you derive boasting from the humble walking in the footsteps of Christ beats me. We are made righteous by two inter-dependent things: 1) the atoning blood of Christ AND 2) Following Jesus in his footsteps. The shed blood was for the whole world, but it's cleansing power is only available to those who 'believe' in Jesus. If you get this far you will then need to ask yourself....'what does it really mean to believe in Jesus?' It's God whose workings within us which transforms us into the image of his only begotten Son. I will leave off there because even a young child can understand that. However, I was particularly impressed with your confession that you ate rice. I don't think that I am the only one who has noticed the liberation in your posts since you found the courage to answer the question about rice featuring in your dietry needs. However, this welcome state, for which I'm sure most board members are glad to see, just might be resulting in an over zealous expressive state? This is understandable but it requires careful management. Please don't give up though. It's worth the effort! We are made righteous by one thing and one thing alone. Anything else is boasting. Your 2 interdependent things is laying claim to your personal effort. That is boasting my friend. I think all religous zealots should spend a year in heavy opression from a roman style governmemt, then you may understand what the bible means by, striving, enduring, following the footsteps of Christ, and what ever other lovely terminology comes to mind when you think your earning eternal life in the clouds.
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Post by fixit on Apr 16, 2020 18:59:41 GMT -5
Chuck, have you figured out what you can get away with and still be saved? 1 If you have to ask that question you have missed the point. 2 you assume people have to meet your standard to be saved. That's Judgement! 3 you think Grace as a free gift is dangerous and is a licence to do what ever you want, refer back to 1. 4 you think salvation, eternal life, heaven is only to do with after natural death hence the drive to do better, strive harder, die daily ect ect. It's not. Study the hebrew people/culture. You can exprience it all now!. 5 If you feel the need to ask this question you perhaps need to re-read the bible in this light of "what you can get away with", prepared to be horrified of what people got away with in the bible to your standards. Then perhaps ot might make sense that its not about what you can get away with. I would reply with a question of my own. How do you know when you've done enough to be saved and enjoy heaven in the afterlife?. What is your standard?. I asked the question because you seemed to be missing the point. Come to think about it, I'm not sure that I understand your point. Are you condemning people who are sacrificing more than you are? Are you upset that people have asked you to do things you don't feel moved to do?
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Post by chuck on Apr 16, 2020 20:04:32 GMT -5
1 If you have to ask that question you have missed the point. 2 you assume people have to meet your standard to be saved. That's Judgement! 3 you think Grace as a free gift is dangerous and is a licence to do what ever you want, refer back to 1. 4 you think salvation, eternal life, heaven is only to do with after natural death hence the drive to do better, strive harder, die daily ect ect. It's not. Study the hebrew people/culture. You can exprience it all now!. 5 If you feel the need to ask this question you perhaps need to re-read the bible in this light of "what you can get away with", prepared to be horrified of what people got away with in the bible to your standards. Then perhaps ot might make sense that its not about what you can get away with. I would reply with a question of my own. How do you know when you've done enough to be saved and enjoy heaven in the afterlife?. What is your standard?. I asked the question because you seemed to be missing the point. Come to think about it, I'm not sure that I understand your point. Are you condemning people who are sacrificing more than you are? Are you upset that people have asked you to do things you don't feel moved to do? I've seen your point for 30+ years. I started to think for myself because I thought we were hypocrites not living what we were boasting about. So I asked, seeked and knocked. Thinking for yourself is not something endorsed or encouraged by 2x2's powers at be. Never will it be. Why would I condemn someone who sacrifices more than me?. I will dissaprove someone who say's what I must sacrifice in order to attain something. I will say what Paul say's, Dung!. That is not condemning, its saying its a waste of time if you think it will get the result you desire. Sacrifice till your hearts content. I would ask how do you know when you've sacrificed enough?. I will condemn the practice of spiritual abuse, Its disgusting and rife within the 2x2's. A person that asks you to do something is asking from their standard. There is only one mediator, and thats not that person. Edit, the sacrificial system was done away with. Why do you want the priest to stand back up?.
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Post by fixit on Apr 16, 2020 20:43:46 GMT -5
I asked the question because you seemed to be missing the point. Come to think about it, I'm not sure that I understand your point. Are you condemning people who are sacrificing more than you are? Are you upset that people have asked you to do things you don't feel moved to do? I've seen your point for 30+ years. I started to think for myself because I thought we were hypocrites not living what we were boasting about. So I asked, seeked and knocked. Thinking for yourself is not something endorsed or encouraged by 2x2's powers at be. Never will it be. Why would I condemn someone who sacrifices more than me?. I will dissaprove someone who say's what I must sacrifice in order to attain something. I will say what Paul say's, Dung!. That is not condemning, its saying its a waste of time if you think it will get the result you desire. Sacrifice till your hearts content. I would ask how do you know when you've sacrificed enough?. I will condemn the practice of spiritual abuse, Its disgusting and rife within the 2x2's. A person that asks you to do something is asking from their standard. There is only one mediator, and thats not that person. Edit, the sacrificial system was done away with. Why do you want the priest to stand back up?. I think I understand where you're coming from, and agree to some extent. You seem to be taking an extreme position but it's driven by experiences in your off-line life. Just don't throw baby out with the bathwater.
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Post by chuck on Apr 17, 2020 0:02:33 GMT -5
I've seen your point for 30+ years. I started to think for myself because I thought we were hypocrites not living what we were boasting about. So I asked, seeked and knocked. Thinking for yourself is not something endorsed or encouraged by 2x2's powers at be. Never will it be. Why would I condemn someone who sacrifices more than me?. I will dissaprove someone who say's what I must sacrifice in order to attain something. I will say what Paul say's, Dung!. That is not condemning, its saying its a waste of time if you think it will get the result you desire. Sacrifice till your hearts content. I would ask how do you know when you've sacrificed enough?. I will condemn the practice of spiritual abuse, Its disgusting and rife within the 2x2's. A person that asks you to do something is asking from their standard. There is only one mediator, and thats not that person. Edit, the sacrificial system was done away with. Why do you want the priest to stand back up?. I think I understand where you're coming from, and agree to some extent. You seem to be taking an extreme position but it's driven by experiences in your off-line life. Just don't throw baby out with the bathwater. It almost is like your suggesting Im bitter(favorite 2x2 word) from some personal experience?. If so nothing further from the truth. Just observation on how we treat anyone not like us, this also includes close family, relatives and friends to protect our heavenly after life. Dusgusting selfish behaviour. some of the crap that just rolls of the tongue gobsmacks me. You don't have to agree with me. My goal is this. To challenge people to ask themselves "why do we believe what we believe?". Is it "because we want to go to heaven after we die, or is it "because we Jesus said it's the best way to live our life?". If your just wanting to go to heaven because hell sux well that's a insult to Jesus. It's like saying you married your wife because option B was ugly. I can tell you now a high percentage of 2x2 follow Jesus just to go to heaven after they die. Strive harder so we dont miss out, want do better so we dont miss out, dont wanna miss out, dont let the devil get you or you might miss out, and so on and so on. Every sunday and Wednesday night. If there was no heaven after you die what would you still enjoy sacrificing most?. What would you go to meetings for?. What would you pray for?. What would you guilt and shame yourself and others in the hope of?. Jesus has already sorted your ticket to heaven, collect it now!. Live the best life now. Bring heaven to earth now. Why wait?. No chance of being thrown out with the bathwater. But I see it happen every other week from in our midst. 😪.
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Post by mountain on Apr 17, 2020 2:50:20 GMT -5
Every Christian believes in Christ's sacrifice and it's atoning power. I think you need to brush up on your interpretive skills? How you derive boasting from the humble walking in the footsteps of Christ beats me. We are made righteous by two inter-dependent things: 1) the atoning blood of Christ AND 2) Following Jesus in his footsteps. The shed blood was for the whole world, but it's cleansing power is only available to those who 'believe' in Jesus. If you get this far you will then need to ask yourself....'what does it really mean to believe in Jesus?' It's God whose workings within us which transforms us into the image of his only begotten Son. I will leave off there because even a young child can understand that. However, I was particularly impressed with your confession that you ate rice. I don't think that I am the only one who has noticed the liberation in your posts since you found the courage to answer the question about rice featuring in your dietry needs. However, this welcome state, for which I'm sure most board members are glad to see, just might be resulting in an over zealous expressive state? This is understandable but it requires careful management. Please don't give up though. It's worth the effort! We are made righteous by one thing and one thing alone. Anything else is boasting. Your 2 interdependent things is laying claim to your personal effort. That is boasting my friend. I think all religous zealots should spend a year in heavy opression from a roman style governmemt, then you may understand what the bible means by, striving, enduring, following the footsteps of Christ, and what ever other lovely terminology comes to mind when you think your earning eternal life in the clouds. Paul tells us to work out our own salvation with trembling and Godly fear. Maybe if you switched from short grained to long grained you might see things a little clearer?
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Post by chuck on Apr 17, 2020 3:43:33 GMT -5
We are made righteous by one thing and one thing alone. Anything else is boasting. Your 2 interdependent things is laying claim to your personal effort. That is boasting my friend. I think all religous zealots should spend a year in heavy opression from a roman style governmemt, then you may understand what the bible means by, striving, enduring, following the footsteps of Christ, and what ever other lovely terminology comes to mind when you think your earning eternal life in the clouds. Paul tells us to work out our own salvation with trembling and Godly fear. Maybe if you switched from short grained to long grained you might see things a little clearer? I believe he say's "work out your salvation". Yours!, You have it, work out what to do with it. Fear is related to wisdom. He does not say or even entertain the idea work out how to earn it, work out how to revcieve it, work or you won't get it ect. It would go against everything he taught. Eph 2:8-9 Rom 4 Rom 5:18 Titus 3:5 ect ect
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Post by mountain on Apr 17, 2020 4:06:10 GMT -5
Paul tells us to work out our own salvation with trembling and Godly fear. Maybe if you switched from short grained to long grained you might see things a little clearer? I believe he say's "work out your salvation". Yours!, You have it, work out what to do with it. Fear is related to wisdom. He does not say or even entertain the idea work out how to earn it, work out how to revcieve it, work or you won't get it ect. It would go against everything he taught. Eph 2:8-9 Rom 4 Rom 5:18 Titus 3:5 ect ect God is absolutely clear. Our works are vitally important to our salvation. Can you give your understanding of what works are? Please do not confuse works with rice!
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Post by chuck on Apr 17, 2020 4:26:15 GMT -5
I believe he say's "work out your salvation". Yours!, You have it, work out what to do with it. Fear is related to wisdom. He does not say or even entertain the idea work out how to earn it, work out how to revcieve it, work or you won't get it ect. It would go against everything he taught. Eph 2:8-9 Rom 4 Rom 5:18 Titus 3:5 ect ect God is absolutely clear. Our works are vitally important to our salvation. Can you give your understanding of what works are? Please do not confuse works with rice! Nope God say's otherwise. So does David, You'll have to try someone else, remember you've already tried Paul. What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” - Romans 4:1-8 How about Moses..... Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir. ”He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars —if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness. - Genesis 15:4-6 Nope he doesn't say it either. Works are anything you do to establish your own right standing before God.
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Post by mountain on Apr 17, 2020 6:33:27 GMT -5
God is absolutely clear. Our works are vitally important to our salvation. Can you give your understanding of what works are? Please do not confuse works with rice! Nope God say's otherwise. So does David, You'll have to try someone else, remember you've already tried Paul. What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” - Romans 4:1-8 How about Moses..... Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir. ”He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars —if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness. - Genesis 15:4-6 Nope he doesn't say it either. Works are anything you do to establish your own right standing before God. It appears that you regard 'believe' as a mere acknowledgement. We are to 'believe' every word that God says. When we do, it is counted to us for righteousness. There are times when God makes a statement, it merely requires positive acknowledgement as true. Other times God's word is a commandment. These require action or works to prove true belief. If you cannot understand this please try brown rice instead of white. Matthew 10:24-33 King James Version (KJV) 24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? What does 'follow me' mean to you? What did it mean for the disciples/Apostles of Christ? Please give an explanation of what your understanding is before we (may) move on to other references without examining these matters. Q1 Follow me! What does follow me mean? Q2 How did the early disciples/Apostles follow Jesus
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Post by chuck on Apr 17, 2020 22:34:14 GMT -5
Nope God say's otherwise. So does David, You'll have to try someone else, remember you've already tried Paul. What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” - Romans 4:1-8 How about Moses..... Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir. ”He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars —if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness. - Genesis 15:4-6 Nope he doesn't say it either. Works are anything you do to establish your own right standing before God. It appears that you regard 'believe' as a mere acknowledgement. We are to 'believe' every word that God says. When we do, it is counted to us for righteousness. There are times when God makes a statement, it merely requires positive acknowledgement as true. Other times God's word is a commandment. These require action or works to prove true belief. If you cannot understand this please try brown rice instead of white. Matthew 10:24-33 King James Version (KJV) 24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? What does 'follow me' mean to you? What did it mean for the disciples/Apostles of Christ? Please give an explanation of what your understanding is before we (may) move on to other references without examining these matters. Q1 Follow me! What does follow me mean? Q2 How did the early disciples/Apostles follow Jesus It appears you've never read anything ive said over our many discussions on this topic If you think I regard believe/belief/faith/trust as a mere acknowledgment alone. A belief is shown by a action or manifests itself. That is a faith that works, the actions show your faith/belief is true. This does not mean your works/actionsactions are what save you(you cannot establish your own righteousness), they show you are saved!. Believing you are already saved is the point of conception. This is why Paul say's work out your salvation, be wise how you act out and live your life as a Chrsitian. A "complete" faith before man as James say's. Your faith was complete before God at its conception. Before works/actions. Your highlighted words show my point quite clearly when you read Pauls elaboration on those words. What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” - Romans 4:1-8 Abraham's faith was complete before man!, God credited him righteous at the conception of his belief. So many verses support this. Eph 2:8-10 Titus 3:5 Rom 3:23-24 Rom 4:25 Rom 5:8-9 Rom 11:6 Acts 5;10-11 Mat 5:20 John 6:28-29 You play no role in your Justification. Now for your questions. 1 Follow Jesus's teachings, It is the best way to live your life. 2 By learning and teaching the yoke of Jesus.
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Post by mountain on Apr 18, 2020 2:57:19 GMT -5
It appears that you regard 'believe' as a mere acknowledgement. We are to 'believe' every word that God says. When we do, it is counted to us for righteousness. There are times when God makes a statement, it merely requires positive acknowledgement as true. Other times God's word is a commandment. These require action or works to prove true belief. If you cannot understand this please try brown rice instead of white. Matthew 10:24-33 King James Version (KJV) 24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? What does 'follow me' mean to you? What did it mean for the disciples/Apostles of Christ? Please give an explanation of what your understanding is before we (may) move on to other references without examining these matters. Q1 Follow me! What does follow me mean? Q2 How did the early disciples/Apostles follow Jesus It appears you've never read anything ive said over our many discussions on this topic If you think I regard believe/belief/faith/trust as a mere acknowledgment alone. A belief is shown by a action or manifests itself. That is a faith that works, the actions show your faith/belief is true. This does not mean your works/actionsactions are what save you(you cannot establish your own righteousness), they show you are saved!. Believing you are already saved is the point of conception. This is why Paul say's work out your salvation, be wise how you act out and live your life as a Chrsitian. A "complete" faith before man as James say's. Your faith was complete before God at its conception. Before works/actions. Your highlighted words show my point quite clearly when you read Pauls elaboration on those words. What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” - Romans 4:1-8 Abraham's faith was complete before man!, God credited him righteous at the conception of his belief. So many verses support this. Eph 2:8-10 Titus 3:5 Rom 3:23-24 Rom 4:25 Rom 5:8-9 Rom 11:6 Acts 5;10-11 Mat 5:20 John 6:28-29 You play no role in your Justification. Now for your questions. 1 Follow Jesus's teachings, It is the best way to live your life. 2 By learning and teaching the yoke of Jesus. Chuck my dear friend. There were two reasons why I did not put too much credence on what you present. 1) Your past hesitancy over publicly declaring your rice eating habits. Thankfully that matter has now been resolved and thus removing one of the reasons. 2) Your insistence of putting full importance on portions of scripture which supports your mindset whilst at the same time ignoring those portions of scripture which are clearly at variance with your views. That's all fine but let's just call it for what it is....bias! It is like saying that everything the left hand does is important but whatever the right hand does should be ignored. The reality of scripture is that it is unwise to take one, or a series of scriptural references and build a case on them whilst ignoring those that say something very different. Scripture has to be taken as a whole. We have to reconcile the varying passages if we are to close in on the truth. Here is an example of what I mean. If we 'select' certain passages of scripture to suit our argument we can put forward good cases individually for each of: 1) We are saved by faith 2) We are saved by grace 3) We are saved by belief 4) We are saved by works 5) We are saved by the blood of Christ 6) We are saved by mercy 7) We are saved by Uncle Tom Cobley and all However, that would be wrong! The real truth of the matter is that not one or two or three of the above (others will be able to think of more) save us on their own. They must be viewed collectively not in their individual context. To do this, 'INSTANTLY' removes all the grace v works v faith v blood etc arguments. Each must be understood within the contextual importance they have, for without them there is no salvation, BUT they must each be seen as PART of a collective whole which is the path of salvation.
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Post by mountain on Apr 18, 2020 3:01:45 GMT -5
I've seen your point for 30+ years. I started to think for myself because I thought we were hypocrites not living what we were boasting about. So I asked, seeked and knocked. Thinking for yourself is not something endorsed or encouraged by 2x2's powers at be. Never will it be. Why would I condemn someone who sacrifices more than me?. I will dissaprove someone who say's what I must sacrifice in order to attain something. I will say what Paul say's, Dung!. That is not condemning, its saying its a waste of time if you think it will get the result you desire. Sacrifice till your hearts content. I would ask how do you know when you've sacrificed enough?. I will condemn the practice of spiritual abuse, Its disgusting and rife within the 2x2's. A person that asks you to do something is asking from their standard. There is only one mediator, and thats not that person. Edit, the sacrificial system was done away with. Why do you want the priest to stand back up?. I think I understand where you're coming from, and agree to some extent. You seem to be taking an extreme position but it's driven by experiences in your off-line life. Just don't throw baby out with the bathwater. Paul said 'I die daily' in reference to his following Christ. No effort, no sacrifice....nothing? If a person dies daily they can offer no more sacrifice. They have sacrificed what is required! Rather than the sacrificial system having been done away with, it has been increased to demanding a lifetime of service.
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Post by fixit on Apr 18, 2020 4:50:06 GMT -5
I think I understand where you're coming from, and agree to some extent. You seem to be taking an extreme position but it's driven by experiences in your off-line life. Just don't throw baby out with the bathwater. Paul said 'I die daily' in reference to his following Christ. No effort, no sacrifice....nothing? If a person dies daily they can offer no more sacrifice. They have sacrificed what is required! Rather than the sacrificial system having been done away with, it has been increased to demanding a lifetime of service. This reminds me of what Jesus said: Luke 9:23 Then he said to the crowd, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must give up your own way, take up your cross daily, and follow me. 24 If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake, you will save it. 25 And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but are yourself lost or destroyed?
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