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Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 15:30:40 GMT -5
I think in the Acts the apostles would have held to the teachings of Jesus as much as possible in that regard even in their travels. There are many reasons why going from house to house is detrimental. In many ways. But it's another tradition and traditions don't want to die. And some that have tried to change a tradition in order to be more in line with Jesus and that's when the fit hits the shan. Fear of man keeps things the same whether there are reasons to change or not. Sure some conventions have changed from the dishwashing systems they had to paper plates and plastic cutlery, but what about change that brings us more in line with Jesus? No one has the courage to go there. And they all get their heads together to reason with one another rather than spending time with the Word. There are DIFFERENCES of administrations. The overseers today seem to want to think the SAME as each other, thinking this is what unity is. So we have sameness of MAN'S minds and no diversity of administration. Which is stale. Thanks to instant gratification communication we get sameness of human thinking throughout the world but great diversity of doctrines. Pure of heart? Nothing pure about that. The apostles, the Faith Mission, or the 2x2 workers did NOT come with the idea for the preachers go from HOUSE to HOUSE but it came God the Father and Christ teaching, it came from above/heaven. If it was detrimental/BAD idea God the Father and Christ would NOT have set it his apostles going/staying from house to house of their followers through the centuries.
We read Jesus went from house of houses of unbelievers (they invite Jesus and his apostles to their homes, wedding feast at Cannan, the Pharisee home and so on), and believers (Peter's mother in law house, Lazarus/Mary and Marth house, Zacheus and so on).
Workers staying in the friends homes are so AWESOME! these are one of the most high light of my years in the ministry. The sheep get to KNOW the shepherds and the shepherds get to know the sheep by names. There is a beautiful bond between and shepherds and the sheep and the lambs. The children and the parents were so anxious to see us to stay in their homes when I was in the work in 2004. Unfortunately, there had been BAD/Corrupt apples of workers with CSA problem that spoiled the whole beautiful barrel of apples, which set up by God and Christ. The bond of between of shepherds and sheep and lambs are very precious experiences that you don't have in the world.
I am so happy that the Overseers around the world will no longer tolerate CSA within the ministry anymore! no more sweeping under the carpet, or sending the workers who are guilty of horrible crimes to stay in the work or cover up their evil deeds.
We read in the epistles and the book of Acts there were divisions within Peter and Pau's administration but they are part of the same Godhead and Christ's ministry so, the Holy Spirit united them as one mind like in Acts 15 in situations and doctrines. We see how Paul, Peter and Barnabas have different opinions and disagreement on various issues but they didn't go and start their own church but they work things out.
The "CSA problem" is the tip of the iceberg. It's not all about CSA. There's something much worse. But this isn't the avenue to discuss it. And I still agree with the teaching of Jesus to ask when you get into a city to find out who is worthy and remain there. They still go to different houses obviously to bring the truth wherever they go. Yes no doubt the workers love going from house to house today. And the shepherd of the sheep is Jesus. The workers are shepherds if they are bringing us and teaching us Jesus. Maybe you get that that where you are but we haven't seen that for quite a long time. Lots of focus on the natural in conversation and thinking and living. Gets tedious. Lots of words but without that very Holy life, lots of starvation. I really appreciate what some of the workers in these last years have have been saying...we can be satisfied with just the form. So true.
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Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 15:46:05 GMT -5
The apostles, the Faith Mission, or the 2x2 workers did NOT come with the idea for the preachers go from HOUSE to HOUSE but it came God the Father and Christ teaching, it came from above/heaven. If it was detrimental/BAD idea God the Father and Christ would NOT have set it his apostles going/staying from house to house of their followers through the centuries.
We read Jesus went from house of houses of unbelievers (they invite Jesus and his apostles to their homes, wedding feast at Cannan, the Pharisee home and so on), and believers (Peter's mother in law house, Lazarus/Mary and Marth house, Zacheus and so on).
Workers staying in the friends homes are so AWESOME! these are one of the most high light of my years in the ministry. The sheep get to KNOW the shepherds and the shepherds get to know the sheep by names. There is a beautiful bond between and shepherds and the sheep and the lambs. The children and the parents were so anxious to see us to stay in their homes when I was in the work in 2004. Unfortunately, there had been BAD/Corrupt apples of workers with CSA problem that spoiled the whole beautiful barrel of apples, which set up by God and Christ. The bond of between of shepherds and sheep and lambs are very precious experiences that you don't have in the world.
I am so happy that the Overseers around the world will no longer tolerate CSA within the ministry anymore! no more sweeping under the carpet, or sending the workers who are guilty of horrible crimes to stay in the work or cover up their evil deeds.
We read in the epistles and the book of Acts there were divisions within Peter and Pau's administration but they are part of the same Godhead and Christ's ministry so, the Holy Spirit united them as one mind like in Acts 15 in situations and doctrines. We see how Paul, Peter and Barnabas have different opinions and disagreement on various issues but they didn't go and start their own church but they work things out.
The "CSA problem" is the tip of the iceberg. It's not all about CSA. There's something much worse. But this isn't the avenue to discuss it. And I still agree with the teaching of Jesus to ask when you get into a city to find out who is worthy and remain there. They still go to different houses obviously to bring the truth wherever they go. Yes no doubt the workers love going from house to house today. And the shepherd of the sheep is Jesus. The workers are shepherds if they are bringing us and teaching us Jesus. Maybe you get that that where you are but we haven't seen that for quite a long time. Lots of focus on the natural in conversation and thinking and living. Gets tedious. Lots of words but without that very Holy life, lots of starvation. I really appreciate what some of the workers in these last years have have been saying...we can be satisfied with just the form. So true. Each worker has different gifts given by God and Christ... some are good preachers and teachers, some are good in listening and caring for the sheep and lambs of God/Pastors... That is why so good to have the workers rotate to different places, fields and states, so the friends get all kinds of gifts/benefits from different workers to equip us how to be better living Witnesses ourselves. Take the good and throw away the bad teachings/form from the workers.
Some workers have all the gifts as preacher, good shepherd caring for the sheep and lambs of God. Some are good in administration as the leaders. Paul wrote in Eph 4:8-14 Wherefore he saith, When he/Jesus ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
And he/Jesus gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
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Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 16:01:05 GMT -5
The "CSA problem" is the tip of the iceberg. It's not all about CSA. There's something much worse. But this isn't the avenue to discuss it. And I still agree with the teaching of Jesus to ask when you get into a city to find out who is worthy and remain there. They still go to different houses obviously to bring the truth wherever they go. Yes no doubt the workers love going from house to house today. And the shepherd of the sheep is Jesus. The workers are shepherds if they are bringing us and teaching us Jesus. Maybe you get that that where you are but we haven't seen that for quite a long time. Lots of focus on the natural in conversation and thinking and living. Gets tedious. Lots of words but without that very Holy life, lots of starvation. I really appreciate what some of the workers in these last years have have been saying...we can be satisfied with just the form. So true. Each worker has different gifts given by God and Christ... some are good preachers and teachers, some are good in listening and caring for the sheep and lambs of God/Pastors... That is why so good to have the workers rotate to different places, fields and states, so the friends get all kinds of gifts/benefits from different workers to equip us how to be better living Witnesses ourselves. Take the good and throw away the bad teachings/form from the workers.
Some workers have all the gifts as preacher, good shepherd caring for the sheep and lambs of God. Some are good in administration as the leaders. Paul wrote in Eph 4:8-14 Wherefore he saith, When he/Jesus ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
And he/Jesus gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;Yes. But our "system" is broken and has been broken for quite a long time. Doing the same things over and over again is like banging our heads on a concrete wall and hoping for a different result each time. It takes a very long time to get to the point where we even acknowledge that it's not working for MANY and has brought about MUCH harm and I am not talking about CSA. That's seperate in itself. Anyhoo...I am just waiting and praying for God to deal with it. I think there are workers feeling the same.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 16:05:05 GMT -5
Each worker has different gifts given by God and Christ... some are good preachers and teachers, some are good in listening and caring for the sheep and lambs of God/Pastors... That is why so good to have the workers rotate to different places, fields and states, so the friends get all kinds of gifts/benefits from different workers to equip us how to be better living Witnesses ourselves. Take the good and throw away the bad teachings/form from the workers.
Some workers have all the gifts as preacher, good shepherd caring for the sheep and lambs of God. Some are good in administration as the leaders. Paul wrote in Eph 4:8-14 Wherefore he saith, When he/Jesus ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
And he/Jesus gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Yes. But our "system" is broken and has been broken for quite a long time. Doing the same things over and over again is like banging our heads on a concrete wall and hoping for a different result each time. It takes a very long time to get to the point where we even acknowledge that it's not working for MANY and has brought about MUCH harm and I am not talking about CSA. That's seperate in itself. Anyhoo...I am just waiting and praying for God to deal with it. I think there are workers feeling the same. while i will agree that there will be a falling away near the end(it started happening awhile ago)i'm not so sure you can pin it on just the system....
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Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 16:25:49 GMT -5
Each worker has different gifts given by God and Christ... some are good preachers and teachers, some are good in listening and caring for the sheep and lambs of God/Pastors... That is why so good to have the workers rotate to different places, fields and states, so the friends get all kinds of gifts/benefits from different workers to equip us how to be better living Witnesses ourselves. Take the good and throw away the bad teachings/form from the workers.
Some workers have all the gifts as preacher, good shepherd caring for the sheep and lambs of God. Some are good in administration as the leaders. Paul wrote in Eph 4:8-14 Wherefore he saith, When he/Jesus ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
And he/Jesus gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Yes. But our "system" is broken and has been broken for quite a long time. Doing the same things over and over again is like banging our heads on a concrete wall and hoping for a different result each time. It takes a very long time to get to the point where we even acknowledge that it's not working for MANY and has brought about MUCH harm and I am not talking about CSA. That's seperate in itself. Anyhoo... I am just waiting and praying for God to deal with it. I think there are workers feeling the same. I hear what you are saying, and I agree, Bro.... God has give each of the workers, friends, and ex-workers special gifts and he wants us to use and share it with the world in our own ways! Don't wait for the ministry to do it! Allow the Holy Spirit to teach you and lead you on how to win souls for Christ.
Leo Stancliff and his companions were reaching out the public by having Bible studies on the University for the students and the staff on the campus lawn. I had driven by the workers gospel meetings tent many times but I was too scare to go in. After I attended the workers Bible studies on Campus and got to KNOW them and it was no problem for me to attend their tent gospel meetings, Sunday morning meetings at all.
Leo went out of the norm way of getting to reach the public with the gospel message and they succeed about 12 or more professed and many continued on to this day! When I was in the work, I asked my companions if we could have Bible studies at the colleges and we did.
Over 20 years ago, I was moved by the Holy Spirit to share the gospel message, my understanding, studies, and research on line and some workers and the friends opposed that idea... Hey! I do what God and the Holy Spirit moves and tell what to do, I don't obey what men say or think. It has been a very interesting experience so far.
Some of the friends and I tried to alert and educate the 2x2s on and about CSA 20 years! I wish they had listened and pay attention then we would NOT have one of the biggest problem among us.
Don't worry, bro... The Holy Spirit is still alive and here among us and He is still in charge and the overseers are His employees. When I was in the work, the list came out I was to be with so and so, then two weeks later one phone called I was moved to different field to be with different companion NOT once but twice in one year... There are still chosen vessels among us, God has prepared us since we were in our mother's wombs. It's NOT by accident which country we were born and how we were raised and most of the experiences we went through life... ALL plan by God for the future purpose... I was a trouble shooter! God moves me to places, that the overseers had no control over it.
What I am saying is this The Holy Spirit is the OVERSEER of overseers! He is still in charge... They might come up with the list of workers yearly but the Spirit move them around during the year where the needs are. So, cheer up! my friend God is still on the throne and he is in control of things. God is cleansing the church, and get her ready to present them as the Bride for Christ.
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Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 16:28:40 GMT -5
Yes. But our "system" is broken and has been broken for quite a long time. Doing the same things over and over again is like banging our heads on a concrete wall and hoping for a different result each time. It takes a very long time to get to the point where we even acknowledge that it's not working for MANY and has brought about MUCH harm and I am not talking about CSA. That's seperate in itself. Anyhoo...I am just waiting and praying for God to deal with it. I think there are workers feeling the same. while i will agree that there will be a falling away near the end(it started happening awhile ago)i'm not so sure you can pin it on just the system.... No that's right Wally. And the falling away isn't just those LEAVING.
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Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 16:30:37 GMT -5
Yes. But our "system" is broken and has been broken for quite a long time. Doing the same things over and over again is like banging our heads on a concrete wall and hoping for a different result each time. It takes a very long time to get to the point where we even acknowledge that it's not working for MANY and has brought about MUCH harm and I am not talking about CSA. That's seperate in itself. Anyhoo... I am just waiting and praying for God to deal with it. I think there are workers feeling the same. I hear what you are saying, and I agree, Bro.... God has give each of the workers, friends, and ex-workers special gifts and he wants us to use and share it with the world in our own ways! Don't wait for the ministry to do it! Allow the Holy Spirit to teach you and lead you on how to win souls for Christ.
Leo Stancliff and his companions were reaching out the public by having Bible studies on the University for the students and the staff on the campus lawn. I had driven by the workers gospel meetings tent many times but I was too scare to go in. After I attended the workers Bible studies on Campus and got to KNOW them and it was no problem for me to attend their tent gospel meetings, Sunday morning meetings at all.
Leo went out of the norm way of getting to reach the public with the gospel message and they succeed about 12 or more professed and many continued on to this day! When I was in the work, I asked my companions if we could have Bible studies at the colleges and we did.
Over 20 years ago, I was moved by the Holy Spirit to share the gospel message, my understanding, studies, and research on line and some workers and the friends opposed that idea... Hey! I do what God and the Holy Spirit moves and tell what to do, I don't obey what men say or think. It has been a very interesting experience so far.
Some of the friends and I tried to alert and educate the 2x2s on and about CSA 20 years! I wish they had listened and pay attention then we would NOT have one of the biggest problem among us.
Don't worry, bro... The Holy Spirit is still alive and here among us and He is still in charge and the overseers are His employees.
I'm a sister not a brother 😄
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 25, 2020 16:34:14 GMT -5
I hear what you are saying, and I agree, Bro.... God has give each of the workers, friends, and ex-workers special gifts and he wants us to use and share it with the world in our own ways! Don't wait for the ministry to do it! Allow the Holy Spirit to teach you and lead you on how to win souls for Christ.
Leo Stancliff and his companions were reaching out the public by having Bible studies on the University for the students and the staff on the campus lawn. I had driven by the workers gospel meetings tent many times but I was too scare to go in. After I attended the workers Bible studies on Campus and got to KNOW them and it was no problem for me to attend their tent gospel meetings, Sunday morning meetings at all.
Leo went out of the norm way of getting to reach the public with the gospel message and they succeed about 12 or more professed and many continued on to this day! When I was in the work, I asked my companions if we could have Bible studies at the colleges and we did.
Over 20 years ago, I was moved by the Holy Spirit to share the gospel message, my understanding, studies, and research on line and some workers and the friends opposed that idea... Hey! I do what God and the Holy Spirit moves and tell what to do, I don't obey what men say or think. It has been a very interesting experience so far.
Some of the friends and I tried to alert and educate the 2x2s on and about CSA 20 years! I wish they had listened and pay attention then we would NOT have one of the biggest problem among us.
Don't worry, bro... The Holy Spirit is still alive and here among us and He is still in charge and the overseers are His employees.
I'm a sister not a brother 😄 Damn, I just bought a male birthday card for you.
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Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 16:36:20 GMT -5
I hear what you are saying, and I agree, Bro or Sister! .... God has give each of the workers, friends, and ex-workers special gifts and he wants us to use and share it with the world in our own ways! Don't wait for the ministry to do it! Allow the Holy Spirit to teach you and lead you on how to win souls for Christ. Leo Stancliff and his companions were reaching out the public by having Bible studies on the University for the students and the staff on the campus lawn. I had driven by the workers gospel meetings tent many times but I was too scare to go in. After I attended the workers Bible studies on Campus and got to KNOW them and it was no problem for me to attend their tent gospel meetings, Sunday morning meetings at all. Leo went out of the norm way of getting to reach the public with the gospel message and they succeed about 12 or more professed and many continued on to this day! When I was in the work, I asked my companions if we could have Bible studies at the colleges and we did. Over 20 years ago, I was moved by the Holy Spirit to share the gospel message, my understanding, studies, and research on line and some workers and the friends opposed that idea... Hey! I do what God and the Holy Spirit moves and tell what to do, I don't obey what men say or think. It has been a very interesting experience so far. Some of the friends and I tried to alert and educate the 2x2s on and about CSA 20 years! I wish they had listened and pay attention then we would NOT have one of the biggest problem among us. Don't worry, bro... The Holy Spirit is still alive and here among us and He is still in charge and the overseers are His employees. When I was in the work, the list came out I was to be with so and so, then two weeks later one phone called I was moved to different field to be with different companion NOT once but twice in one year... There are still chosen vessels among us, God has prepared us since we were in our mother's wombs. It's NOT by accident which country we were born and how we were raised and most of the experiences we went through life... ALL plan by God for the future purpose... I was a trouble shooter! God moves me to places, that the overseers had no control over it. What I am saying is this The Holy Spirit is the OVERSEER of overseers! He is still in charge... They might come up with the list of workers yearly but the Spirit move them around during the year where the needs are. So, cheer up! my friend God is still on the throne and he is in control of things. God is cleansing the Ministry and the churches of God, and get her ready to present them as the spotless Bride for Christ who will appear soon from the sky! I'm a sister not a brother 😄 haha, opps… Sorry sis! You should post as MARY! So, I don't get mixed up as a bro.
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Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 17:36:49 GMT -5
I'm a sister not a brother 😄 Damn, I just bought a male birthday card for you. And belated to boot 🙄
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 25, 2020 17:39:19 GMT -5
Damn, I just bought a male birthday card for you. And belated to boot 🙄 How do you work that out?
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Post by speak on Mar 25, 2020 18:26:27 GMT -5
Each worker has different gifts given by God and Christ... some are good preachers and teachers, some are good in listening and caring for the sheep and lambs of God/Pastors... That is why so good to have the workers rotate to different places, fields and states, so the friends get all kinds of gifts/benefits from different workers to equip us how to be better living Witnesses ourselves. Take the good and throw away the bad teachings/form from the workers.
Some workers have all the gifts as preacher, good shepherd caring for the sheep and lambs of God. Some are good in administration as the leaders. Paul wrote in Eph 4:8-14 Wherefore he saith, When he/Jesus ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
And he/Jesus gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Yes. But our "system" is broken and has been broken for quite a long time. Doing the same things over and over again is like banging our heads on a concrete wall and hoping for a different result each time. It takes a very long time to get to the point where we even acknowledge that it's not working for MANY and has brought about MUCH harm and I am not talking about CSA. That's seperate in itself. Anyhoo...I am just waiting and praying for God to deal with it. I think there are workers feeling the same. So what do you see as broken? and how would you go about fixing it? Do you feel if God was going to change He might have done it by now? after all you say it has been for a long time. CSA has nothing to do with the fellowship as a whole but it is down to individuals who don't have Christ within and that goes for the dissatisfied.
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Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 19:43:07 GMT -5
Yes. But our "system" is broken and has been broken for quite a long time. Doing the same things over and over again is like banging our heads on a concrete wall and hoping for a different result each time. It takes a very long time to get to the point where we even acknowledge that it's not working for MANY and has brought about MUCH harm and I am not talking about CSA. That's seperate in itself. Anyhoo...I am just waiting and praying for God to deal with it. I think there are workers feeling the same. So what do you see as broken? and how would you go about fixing it? Do you feel if God was going to change He might have done it by now? after all you say it has been for a long time. CSA has nothing to do with the fellowship as a whole but it is down to individuals who don't have Christ within and that goes for the dissatisfied. I would not divulge my thoughts on what it would take to fix it because I do not believe it is even fixable by anyone but God perhaps sending his son. I know there are others that feel the same way. Few, granted, but definitely others are aware. If you believe CSA has nothing to do with the fellowship as a whole then you must not believe that we are connected as a spiritual body and if these things are in the body, the body is SICK. Purging the body of the perpetrators isn't going to heal the sickness. Jesus taught how to deal with the sinner and we can do that but if we keep peeling back the layers we will find out what causes spiritual evil in the first place and and that goes back many layers and many years. It just kind of shocks me how easy it is to deceive ourselves into thinking that we're actually alright when we have no idea the severe judgement Jesus is coming to deal with in his own kingdom. But when Jesus says few he really means few. Not compared to the whole population. There are many examples in the scriptures. There's just one word that it makes me pray for God's people. Repent. I don't see many at all thinking we have anything to repent about.
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Post by chuck on Mar 25, 2020 20:43:04 GMT -5
Well that's not exactly what the scriptures say but that's definitely what MANY believe. Many there be that go that way. Yes, our salvation according to scriptures, IS dependent on how we treat a brother that is in a bad situation. Sometimes you can't help because they won't let you. But how we do our "works" today is pretty much every man for himself. Faith without works is dead. I think people don't understand what works really means. SALVATION has been completed. But we have a work to do in order to attain salvation. It's all about relationships. It's not about money, natural works, looking good, looking after our own family and neglecting God's family. But it seems no one gets it. Chuck: In terms of Matthew 25, can someone behave like a "goat", yet have salvation in terms of your theological "finished work" theory? Matthew 25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ 37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ 41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ 44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ 45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ 46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.” Sure they can. Doesn't mean they accept it though does it?. Jesus died once for all!. Do goats fit in the all category?. Leciticus 16, did the goat cover all or only a percentage?. He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. - Leviticus 16:21
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Post by chuck on Mar 25, 2020 21:13:31 GMT -5
Titus 3 says were are saved to do good. Romams 4 says being justified by good works puts God in debt to us. Thanks for bringing those chapters to remember. Love it. What I gather from works is that our own works won't do us one bit of good. It's the works of Christ, doing His words...those are the works. If we're using the scriptures to do what is written, that's not our own works. It has everything to do with relationships. Love your enemies. Bless them that curse you. Do good to them that hate you. Pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you. Who to invite over if you make a supper and who not to. How to deal with offences (don't do nothing about it but follow the instructions Jesus taught), not to labour for the things that perish, etc. Those aren't our works. Some works are also natural but limited...caring for the ministry or a brother in need. And the ministry then is a far cry from what the ministry is today. Those are the works of Christ and they're costly because it's not how we would normally do things. But I am not sure what to do with apathy, or indifference. Brethren that don't want you in their lives because they're too busy with their own lives and businesses and families. No time for anyone else but the most elite. Someone told me not long ago that we're just another elitist group. Seems like to me that's how it's become. If we take steps down, whether it's through mistakes or simply wanting to get off that train, we find ourselves outside of the elitist group. It's worth it because Jesus said he did not receive honor from men and no wonder. He didn't make choices that made him fit in with the elitist groups of his time. Jesus seemed to have dealt with a lot of indifference in his day also. When we follow Jesus we find ourselves in the same boat. We are already saved. So as Titus 3 says. Saved to do good works. Not do good works to be saved. This includes doing Christ's words as you put it. You do Christ's words as a reaction to knowing the debt has already been canceled. This is a faith with works. It's a faith that works 😉. As for elitism. That's the result of exclusive thinking. If youve been told your whole life you are special and the workers hold the keys to heaven, how can you not think that way. Very hard to think outside the box but anyone can do it if they want.
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Post by speak on Mar 25, 2020 21:56:03 GMT -5
So what do you see as broken? and how would you go about fixing it? Do you feel if God was going to change He might have done it by now? after all you say it has been for a long time. CSA has nothing to do with the fellowship as a whole but it is down to individuals who don't have Christ within and that goes for the dissatisfied. I would not divulge my thoughts on what it would take to fix it because I do not believe it is even fixable by anyone but God perhaps sending his son. I know there are others that feel the same way. Few, granted, but definitely others are aware. If you believe CSA has nothing to do with the fellowship as a whole then you must not believe that we are connected as a spiritual body and if these things are in the body, the body is SICK. Purging the body of the perpetrators isn't going to heal the sickness. Jesus taught how to deal with the sinner and we can do that but if we keep peeling back the layers we will find out what causes spiritual evil in the first place and and that goes back many layers and many years. It just kind of shocks me how easy it is to deceive ourselves into thinking that we're actually alright when we have no idea the severe judgement Jesus is coming to deal with in his own kingdom. But when Jesus says few he really means few. Not compared to the whole population. There are many examples in the scriptures. There's just one word that it makes me pray for God's people. Repent. I don't see many at all thinking we have anything to repent about. I would then ask why that you have stated such?
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Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 22:13:03 GMT -5
Thanks for bringing those chapters to remember. Love it. What I gather from works is that our own works won't do us one bit of good. It's the works of Christ, doing His words...those are the works. If we're using the scriptures to do what is written, that's not our own works. It has everything to do with relationships. Love your enemies. Bless them that curse you. Do good to them that hate you. Pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you. Who to invite over if you make a supper and who not to. How to deal with offences (don't do nothing about it but follow the instructions Jesus taught), not to labour for the things that perish, etc. Those aren't our works. Some works are also natural but limited...caring for the ministry or a brother in need. And the ministry then is a far cry from what the ministry is today. Those are the works of Christ and they're costly because it's not how we would normally do things. But I am not sure what to do with apathy, or indifference. Brethren that don't want you in their lives because they're too busy with their own lives and businesses and families. No time for anyone else but the most elite. Someone told me not long ago that we're just another elitist group. Seems like to me that's how it's become. If we take steps down, whether it's through mistakes or simply wanting to get off that train, we find ourselves outside of the elitist group. It's worth it because Jesus said he did not receive honor from men and no wonder. He didn't make choices that made him fit in with the elitist groups of his time. Jesus seemed to have dealt with a lot of indifference in his day also. When we follow Jesus we find ourselves in the same boat. We are already saved. So as Titus 3 says. Saved to do good works. Not do good works to be saved. This includes doing Christ's words as you put it. You do Christ's words as a reaction to knowing the debt has already been canceled. This is a faith with works. It's a faith that works 😉. As for elitism. That's the result of exclusive thinking. If youve been told your whole life you are special and the workers hold the keys to heaven, how can you not think that way. Very hard to think outside the box but anyone can do it if they want. Very true, Chuck. I think outside the box IN the box. I need a box. Kind of like needing a house because it's safe. The box is becoming worn out and battered because of neglect and it's filling up with elitists. Like a drug house but in a spiritual sense. But there aren't any other boxes out there any better. There may come a time that it will actually be safer outside the box. For some I suspect that's how it is now.
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Post by chuck on Mar 26, 2020 0:32:08 GMT -5
We are already saved. So as Titus 3 says. Saved to do good works. Not do good works to be saved. This includes doing Christ's words as you put it. You do Christ's words as a reaction to knowing the debt has already been canceled. This is a faith with works. It's a faith that works 😉. As for elitism. That's the result of exclusive thinking. If youve been told your whole life you are special and the workers hold the keys to heaven, how can you not think that way. Very hard to think outside the box but anyone can do it if they want. Very true, Chuck. I think outside the box IN the box. I need a box. Kind of like needing a house because it's safe. The box is becoming worn out and battered because of neglect and it's filling up with elitists. Like a drug house but in a spiritual sense. But there aren't any other boxes out there any better. There may come a time that it will actually be safer outside the box. For some I suspect that's how it is now. You need to forget about the boxes altogether. No box can contain God. Putting God in a box is oursleves talking about oursleves with a giant megaphone, we are our own God. But you have hit the nail on the head about the house and feeling safe. This is why people just shout louder and double down when one dare suggests God is bigger, better and more loving than the box. They feel unsafe, uncomfortable even thinking outside the box so why would they even want to go there!. You think about the elderly especially, what would they do?, where would they go?, if they decided this is not the right way. Their whole life is 2x2, they are stuck. They go against the grain they are cast out, cut off, unrecoverable. As a elderly person what would you do?. Personally my first reaction is disgust at how exes and those going against the grain are treated. But now its sadness because most of it is just a reaction to what they know, what's been drummed into most of them since they were 1 year old. You find God in the act of love itself. Those shunning the exes, those going against the grain, and outsiders have found what?, themsleves and their preachers, they are there own Gods. Throw the box away! 😉. Bear in mind this does not mean throw away meetings, missions, conventions, baptism, professing and all other traditions and rituals. But know there place. With the current ban on all types of fellowship gatherings you can see by some irrational reactions the meetings are like a drug. People are having withdrawals already. Think about it!.
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Post by christiansburg on Mar 26, 2020 1:35:32 GMT -5
1) Definitely employed. Paid too. ~~ Yes, God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are their Bosses and the friends are theirs helpers. Foods to eat, places to stay over nights, and money they receive from the friends are their wages for their work in preaching the gospel and pastors of God's lambs and sheep. Paul explained more about this in I Cor. 9: 9-14 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
2) Of course there will always need to be a Judas in the midst that holds the bag. Nice that Jesus didn't take part in that although he didn't prevent it either. I think it would scare the life out of me if I was in the ministry and accounted trustworthy enough to be the unofficial treasurer. Dodged that bullet. ~~ To be unofficial treasurers for the 2x2s is an unthankful jobs! Be very careful how they handle the friends trust fund, if they don't pay taxes yearly correctly, and stealing from the funds for themselves... Some have gone to prison for it.
3) Employed is definitely the appropriate word. Jesus said it a little different. He called it the hireling. I watch the workers. They are VERY careful not to tread on the toes of the wealthy and well connected. And they come to our homes not to teach and share from the scriptures. When I was in the work, the friends were very kind to us... We start from 10 A.M. and we don't come back to the house 8-9 PM... six days a week. We had Bible studies at the college and with other people, visiting the friends in nursing homes and try to share some spiritual bread with them. Having lunches with the elderly, and supper with different friends in the fields in the evening, to see if they had any questions they wanted to ask or know. We tried to read/discuss a chapter that we study in most every home after breakfast. Just ask the workers certain subject you want to study about and they will be happy to help you.4) They come with nice shallow words from emails they recieve from other workers that does nothing for my soul. I thirst for springs of heavenly life as our hymn says and that for me gets right back to the Word. The doctrine of Christ than the doctrines of men. But glad that the shallow way works for many. Just ask the workers to share their favorite subjects, thoughts, and revelation they have been studying or thinking. Ask and you shall receive. Good luck!I am sorry, and sympathetic, for your experience that way. There is a difference in the abilities of workers. Some have what it takes and othets don't. I have been fortunate to have had great help from most I knew. I spent 8 years in the work and tried to give my best. A few times I was actually penniless I did not brood over that because I was not in it for the money but because I had a heart for others.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 26, 2020 1:57:34 GMT -5
There really is no connection to "see" -Chuck.
Paul was after all educated the school of Gamaliel, "one of the most noted rabbis in history" -so Paul was very well aware of what was in the Old Testament.
Whether deliberate or whether he actually believed it, (which I think he probably did) -Paul was bound to have presented his writings to coincide as a fulfillment of those old testament accounts.
PROVE IT! So what's your point. Does it make Paul's writings untrue? Why is there no connection? My point is that you want me to "see a connection" made by what Paul said in Hebrews to something in the Old Testament.
However, I am telling you that because that Paul was very knowledgeable of the Old Testament scripts and since Paul believed he had "met" the Christ, -therefore Paul made a lot of what he supposed were "connections" between the Old Testament and Jesus.
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Post by chuck on Mar 26, 2020 2:05:44 GMT -5
So what's your point. Does it make Paul's writings untrue? Why is there no connection? My point is that you want me to "see a connection" made by what Paul said in Hebrews to something in the Old Testament.
However, I am telling you that because that Paul was very knowledgeable of the Old Testament scripts and since Paul believed he had "met" the Christ, -therefore Paul made a lot of what he supposed were "connections" between the Old Testament and Jesus.
The Gospel writers also made connections with Yom Kippur also and they "had" met Christ in the flesh. Still doesn't make Pauls connections untrue.
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 26, 2020 8:31:31 GMT -5
Actually, the author of Hebrews has never been determined for certain. From GotQuestions.org: www.gotquestions.org/author-Hebrews.htmlFirst and foremost is the lack of a salutation. Some sort of personal salutation from Paul appears in all of his letters. So it would seem that writing anonymously is not his usual method; therefore, the reasoning goes, Hebrews cannot be one of his letters. Second, the overall composition and style is of a person who is a very sophisticated writer. Even though he was certainly a sophisticated communicator, Paul stated that he purposely did not speak with a commanding vocabulary (1 Corinthians 1:17; 2:1; 2 Corinthians 11:6). The book of Hebrews quotes extensively from the Old Testament. Paul, as a Pharisee, would have been familiar with the Scripture in its original Hebrew language. In other letters, Paul either quotes the Masoretic Text (the original Hebrew) or paraphrases it. However, all of the quotes in this epistle are taken out of the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament), which is inconsistent with Paul’s usage. Finally, Paul was an apostle who claimed to receive his revelations directly from the Lord Jesus (1 Corinthians 11:23; Galatians 1:12). The writer of Hebrews specifically says that he was taught by an apostle (Hebrews 2:3). If Paul didn’t write the letter, who did? The most plausible suggestion is that this was actually a sermon Paul gave and it was transcribed later by Luke, a person who would have had the command of the Greek language which the writer shows. Barnabas is another likely prospect, since he was a Levite and would have been speaking on a subject that he knew much about. Martin Luther suggested Apollos, since he would have had the education the writer of this letter must have had. Priscilla and Clement of Rome have been suggested by other scholars. However, there is still much evidence that Paul wrote the letter. The most compelling comes from Scripture itself. Remember that Peter wrote to the Hebrews (that is, the Jews; see Galatians 2:7, 9 and 1 Peter 1:1). Peter wrote: "...just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him" (2 Peter 3:15). In that last verse, Peter is confirming that Paul had also written a letter to the Hebrews! The theology presented in Hebrews is consistent with Paul’s. Paul was a proponent of salvation by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8, 9), and that message is strongly communicated in this epistle (Hebrews 4:2, 6:12, 10:19-22, 10:37-39, and 11:1-40). Either Paul wrote the epistle, or the writer was trained by Paul. Although it is a small detail, this epistle makes mention of Timothy (Hebrews 13:23), and Paul is the only apostle known to have ever done that in any letter. So, who actually wrote Hebrews? The letter fills a needed space in Scripture and both outlines our faith and defines faith itself in the same way that Romans defines the tenets of Christian living. It closes the chapters of faith alone and serves as a prelude to the chapters on good works built on a foundation of faith in God. In short, this book belongs in the Bible. Therefore, its human author is unimportant. What is important is to treat the book as inspired Scripture as defined in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. The Holy Spirit was the divine author of Hebrews, and of all Scripture, even though we don’t know who put the physical pen to the physical paper and traced the words.
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Post by iam on Mar 26, 2020 8:50:44 GMT -5
Very true, Chuck. I think outside the box IN the box. I need a box. Kind of like needing a house because it's safe. The box is becoming worn out and battered because of neglect and it's filling up with elitists. Like a drug house but in a spiritual sense. But there aren't any other boxes out there any better. There may come a time that it will actually be safer outside the box. For some I suspect that's how it is now. You need to forget about the boxes altogether. No box can contain God. Putting God in a box is oursleves talking about oursleves with a giant megaphone, we are our own God. But you have hit the nail on the head about the house and feeling safe. This is why people just shout louder and double down when one dare suggests God is bigger, better and more loving than the box. They feel unsafe, uncomfortable even thinking outside the box so why would they even want to go there!. You think about the elderly especially, what would they do?, where would they go?, if they decided this is not the right way. Their whole life is 2x2, they are stuck. They go against the grain they are cast out, cut off, unrecoverable. As a elderly person what would you do?. Personally my first reaction is disgust at how exes and those going against the grain are treated. But now its sadness because most of it is just a reaction to what they know, what's been drummed into most of them since they were 1 year old. You find God in the act of love itself. Those shunning the exes, those going against the grain, and outsiders have found what?, themsleves and their preachers, they are there own Gods. Throw the box away! 😉. Bear in mind this does not mean throw away meetings, missions, conventions, baptism, professing and all other traditions and rituals. But know there place. With the current ban on all types of fellowship gatherings you can see by some irrational reactions the meetings are like a drug. People are having withdrawals already. Think about it!. I get it
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Post by iam on Mar 26, 2020 9:13:40 GMT -5
Very true, Chuck. I think outside the box IN the box. I need a box. Kind of like needing a house because it's safe. The box is becoming worn out and battered because of neglect and it's filling up with elitists. Like a drug house but in a spiritual sense. But there aren't any other boxes out there any better. There may come a time that it will actually be safer outside the box. For some I suspect that's how it is now. You need to forget about the boxes altogether. No box can contain God. Putting God in a box is oursleves talking about oursleves with a giant megaphone, we are our own God. But you have hit the nail on the head about the house and feeling safe. This is why people just shout louder and double down when one dare suggests God is bigger, better and more loving than the box. They feel unsafe, uncomfortable even thinking outside the box so why would they even want to go there!. You think about the elderly especially, what would they do?, where would they go?, if they decided this is not the right way. Their whole life is 2x2, they are stuck. They go against the grain they are cast out, cut off, unrecoverable. As a elderly person what would you do?. Personally my first reaction is disgust at how exes and those going against the grain are treated. But now its sadness because most of it is just a reaction to what they know, what's been drummed into most of them since they were 1 year old. You find God in the act of love itself. Those shunning the exes, those going against the grain, and outsiders have found what?, themsleves and their preachers, they are there own Gods. Throw the box away! 😉. Bear in mind this does not mean throw away meetings, missions, conventions, baptism, professing and all other traditions and rituals. But know there place. With the current ban on all types of fellowship gatherings you can see by some irrational reactions the meetings are like a drug. People are having withdrawals already. Think about it!. Because although that's true, something important is still missing. Truth is perished, like Jeremiah said.
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Post by chuck on Mar 26, 2020 16:46:12 GMT -5
You need to forget about the boxes altogether. No box can contain God. Putting God in a box is oursleves talking about oursleves with a giant megaphone, we are our own God. But you have hit the nail on the head about the house and feeling safe. This is why people just shout louder and double down when one dare suggests God is bigger, better and more loving than the box. They feel unsafe, uncomfortable even thinking outside the box so why would they even want to go there!. You think about the elderly especially, what would they do?, where would they go?, if they decided this is not the right way. Their whole life is 2x2, they are stuck. They go against the grain they are cast out, cut off, unrecoverable. As a elderly person what would you do?. Personally my first reaction is disgust at how exes and those going against the grain are treated. But now its sadness because most of it is just a reaction to what they know, what's been drummed into most of them since they were 1 year old. You find God in the act of love itself. Those shunning the exes, those going against the grain, and outsiders have found what?, themsleves and their preachers, they are there own Gods. Throw the box away! 😉. Bear in mind this does not mean throw away meetings, missions, conventions, baptism, professing and all other traditions and rituals. But know there place. With the current ban on all types of fellowship gatherings you can see by some irrational reactions the meetings are like a drug. People are having withdrawals already. Think about it!. Because although that's true, something important is still missing. Truth is perished, like Jeremiah said. Yes, Heaven on earth is missing! Ritual does not bring heaven back to earth. Loving ALL people does 😁. Bear in mind love is more than just a emotional feeling. Storge – empathy bond. Philios – friend bond. Eros – romantic love. Agape – unconditional "God" love.
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Post by iam on Mar 26, 2020 16:57:46 GMT -5
Because although that's true, something important is still missing. Truth is perished, like Jeremiah said. Yes, Heaven on earth is missing! Ritual does not bring heaven back to earth. Loving people ALL does 😁. Bear in mind love is more than just a emotional feeling. Storge – empathy bond. Philios – friend bond. Eros – romantic love. Agape – unconditional "God" love. You're a disciple of CS Lewis
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Post by chuck on Mar 26, 2020 17:29:50 GMT -5
Yes, Heaven on earth is missing! Ritual does not bring heaven back to earth. Loving people ALL does 😁. Bear in mind love is more than just a emotional feeling. Storge – empathy bond. Philios – friend bond. Eros – romantic love. Agape – unconditional "God" love. You're a disciple of CS Lewis Am I?. Thanks for telling me who I am.
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Post by fixit on Mar 26, 2020 17:32:36 GMT -5
You need to forget about the boxes altogether. No box can contain God. Putting God in a box is oursleves talking about oursleves with a giant megaphone, we are our own God. But you have hit the nail on the head about the house and feeling safe. This is why people just shout louder and double down when one dare suggests God is bigger, better and more loving than the box. They feel unsafe, uncomfortable even thinking outside the box so why would they even want to go there!. You think about the elderly especially, what would they do?, where would they go?, if they decided this is not the right way. Their whole life is 2x2, they are stuck. They go against the grain they are cast out, cut off, unrecoverable. As a elderly person what would you do?. Personally my first reaction is disgust at how exes and those going against the grain are treated. But now its sadness because most of it is just a reaction to what they know, what's been drummed into most of them since they were 1 year old. You find God in the act of love itself. Those shunning the exes, those going against the grain, and outsiders have found what?, themsleves and their preachers, they are there own Gods. Throw the box away! 😉. Bear in mind this does not mean throw away meetings, missions, conventions, baptism, professing and all other traditions and rituals. But know there place. With the current ban on all types of fellowship gatherings you can see by some irrational reactions the meetings are like a drug. People are having withdrawals already. Think about it!. Because although that's true, something important is still missing. Truth is perished, like Jeremiah said. Cheer up iam! 1 Kings 19:10 Elijah replied, “I have zealously served the Lord God Almighty. But the people of Israel have broken their covenant with you, torn down your altars, and killed every one of your prophets. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me, too.” 18 Yet I will preserve 7,000 others in Israel who have never bowed down to Baal or kissed him!”
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