|
Post by fixit on Mar 25, 2020 1:49:47 GMT -5
Chuck, did you learn a lot of this theological theory from books and the internet? All of the above. Plus just putting 2 and 2 together. Why do you think Jesus just said ask seek and knock. So that people would look to God with an "ask and seek and knock" attitude. Man’s wisdom leads into a maze, And error grows in by-path ways, But hearts are filled with joy and praise Who see the truth in Jesus.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 25, 2020 2:07:08 GMT -5
What the "workers" taught me has nothing to do with my question! Why would you even think that?
Can't you understand that I have read these things myself without relying on someone else? I was quoting what you said and wondered why you were quoting something from the OLD TESTAMENT that had nothing to do with Jesus. First commemt was sarcasm. I can understand you have read it. Why do you not see the connection?, you were given a image of God which has shaped how you view the God you now reject maybe?.
It has everything to do with Jesus. How was your "first comment sarcasm?"
No, -my "image of God" has nothing to do with when I was in the 2x2's. Does yours?
Sounds as if you haven't left that image all that far behind you.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Mar 25, 2020 2:13:34 GMT -5
All of the above. Plus just putting 2 and 2 together. Why do you think Jesus just said ask seek and knock. So that people would look to God with an "ask and seek and knock" attitude. Man’s wisdom leads into a maze, And error grows in by-path ways, But hearts are filled with joy and praise Who see the truth in Jesus. That is the position of Ignorance. God gave you a brain, use it. For example, Can you look to God for me and explain what made them say "Now leave him alone". Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink.The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.” - Matthew 27:48-49 When you find the answer it should break your heart.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Mar 25, 2020 2:20:32 GMT -5
First commemt was sarcasm. I can understand you have read it. Why do you not see the connection?, you were given a image of God which has shaped how you view the God you now reject maybe?.
It has everything to do with Jesus. How was your "first comment sarcasm?"
No, -my "image of God" has nothing to do with when I was in the 2x2's. Does yours?
Sounds as if you haven't left that image all that far behind you.
It just was. I can't make you see it. Ok so it doesn't have anything to do with your image of God. So why cant you see the connection?. I don't really have a image of God, and I have left the 2x2 image far behind. What was your image of God?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 25, 2020 3:45:24 GMT -5
How was your "first comment sarcasm?"
No, -my "image of God" has nothing to do with when I was in the 2x2's. Does yours?
Sounds as if you haven't left that image all that far behind you.
It just was. I can't make you see it. Ok so it doesn't have anything to do with your image of God. So why cant you see the connection?. I don't really have a image of God, and I have left the 2x2 image far behind. What was your image of God? There really is no connection to "see" -Chuck.
Paul was after all educated the school of Gamaliel, "one of the most noted rabbis in history" -so Paul was very well aware of what was in the Old Testament.
Whether deliberate or whether he actually believed it, (which I think he probably did) -Paul was bound to have presented his writings to coincide as a fulfillment of those old testament accounts.
PROVE IT!
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Mar 25, 2020 7:41:01 GMT -5
It just was. I can't make you see it. Ok so it doesn't have anything to do with your image of God. So why cant you see the connection?. I don't really have a image of God, and I have left the 2x2 image far behind. What was your image of God? There really is no connection to "see" -Chuck.
Paul was after all educated the school of Gamaliel, "one of the most noted rabbis in history" -so Paul was very well aware of what was in the Old Testament.
Whether deliberate or whether he actually believed it, (which I think he probably did) -Paul was bound to have presented his writings to coincide as a fulfillment of those old testament accounts.
PROVE IT! So what's your point. Does it make Paul's writings untrue? Why is there no connection?
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Mar 25, 2020 7:55:41 GMT -5
I would first ask, Where does it suggest we must do something to complete the already finished work of Christ?. I think your reading with the mindset that salvation has not been completed. If you read this thinking salvation is not complete than I can see why one would assume works salvation. I read this as, if you overlook those in need, lookout or you will find yourself standing on the left hand side. See the grace granted to you and let it flow onto others. This in no way suggests one will lose his salvation because you cant assume he is talking to only true believers and in no way suggests you must look after the needy to earn salvation. Well that's not exactly what the scriptures say but that's definitely what MANY believe. Many there be that go that way. Yes, our salvation according to scriptures, IS dependent on how we treat a brother that is in a bad situation. Sometimes you can't help because they won't let you. But how we do our "works" today is pretty much every man for himself. Faith without works is dead. I think people don't understand what works really means. SALVATION has been completed. But we have a work to do in order to attain salvation. It's all about relationships. It's not about money, natural works, looking good, looking after our own family and neglecting God's family. But it seems no one gets it. Titus 3 says were are saved to do good. Romams 4 says being justified by good works puts God in debt to us.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Mar 25, 2020 8:19:04 GMT -5
Well that's not exactly what the scriptures say but that's definitely what MANY believe. Many there be that go that way. Yes, our salvation according to scriptures, IS dependent on how we treat a brother that is in a bad situation. Sometimes you can't help because they won't let you. But how we do our "works" today is pretty much every man for himself. Faith without works is dead. I think people don't understand what works really means. SALVATION has been completed. But we have a work to do in order to attain salvation. It's all about relationships. It's not about money, natural works, looking good, looking after our own family and neglecting God's family. But it seems no one gets it. Titus 3 says were are saved to do good. Romams 4 says being justified by good works puts God in debt to us. The following essays explain how some view the above topics... What are "Works" and "Grace"?
What does “by Grace through Faith” mean in the Bible?What is "God's Grace"?
|
|
|
Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 9:02:34 GMT -5
Well that's not exactly what the scriptures say but that's definitely what MANY believe. Many there be that go that way. Yes, our salvation according to scriptures, IS dependent on how we treat a brother that is in a bad situation. Sometimes you can't help because they won't let you. But how we do our "works" today is pretty much every man for himself. Faith without works is dead. I think people don't understand what works really means. SALVATION has been completed. But we have a work to do in order to attain salvation. It's all about relationships. It's not about money, natural works, looking good, looking after our own family and neglecting God's family. But it seems no one gets it. Titus 3 says were are saved to do good. Romams 4 says being justified by good works puts God in debt to us. Thanks for bringing those chapters to remember. Love it. What I gather from works is that our own works won't do us one bit of good. It's the works of Christ, doing His words...those are the works. If we're using the scriptures to do what is written, that's not our own works. It has everything to do with relationships. Love your enemies. Bless them that curse you. Do good to them that hate you. Pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you. Who to invite over if you make a supper and who not to. How to deal with offences (don't do nothing about it but follow the instructions Jesus taught), not to labour for the things that perish, etc. Those aren't our works. Some works are also natural but limited...caring for the ministry or a brother in need. And the ministry then is a far cry from what the ministry is today. Those are the works of Christ and they're costly because it's not how we would normally do things. But I am not sure what to do with apathy, or indifference. Brethren that don't want you in their lives because they're too busy with their own lives and businesses and families. No time for anyone else but the most elite. Someone told me not long ago that we're just another elitist group. Seems like to me that's how it's become. If we take steps down, whether it's through mistakes or simply wanting to get off that train, we find ourselves outside of the elitist group. It's worth it because Jesus said he did not receive honor from men and no wonder. He didn't make choices that made him fit in with the elitist groups of his time. Jesus seemed to have dealt with a lot of indifference in his day also. When we follow Jesus we find ourselves in the same boat.
|
|
|
Post by christiansburg on Mar 25, 2020 10:34:40 GMT -5
Don't know where you live but it seems like you may not want to have fellowship with your brethren? It has nothing to do with human feelings or conforming to mans ideas. It is for love of Christ in us and expressing that love with those of the same spirit. I don't agree. It has SO much to do with conforming. Much lip service. I do believe like Jesus implied... most of God's people WON'T "make it". No idea who will or won't but the signs are definitely evident. Workers are far from bring unemployed I would say their ministry is now harder than ever. I now realize how valuable the internet can be to us all. We communicate frequently with each other. Paul and the Apostles were often separated from the Christians for months and sometimes years from each other What evolved from that was numerous epistles.
|
|
|
Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 11:02:23 GMT -5
I don't agree. It has SO much to do with conforming. Much lip service. I do believe like Jesus implied... most of God's people WON'T "make it". No idea who will or won't but the signs are definitely evident. Workers are far from bring unemployed I would say their ministry is now harder than ever. I now realize how valuable the internet can be to us all. We communicate frequently with each other. Paul and the Apostles were often separated from the Christians for months and sometimes years from each other What evolved from that was numerous epistles. Definitely employed. Paid too. Of course there will always need to be a Judas in the midst that holds the bag. Nice that Jesus didn't take part in that although he didn't prevent it either. I think it would scare the life out of me if I was in the ministry and accounted trustworthy enough to be the unofficial treasurer. Dodged that bullet. Employed is definitely the appropriate word. Jesus said it a little different. He called it the hireling. I watch the workers. They are VERY careful not to tread on the toes of the wealthy and well connected. And they come to our homes not to teach and share from the scriptures. They come with nice shallow words from emails they recieve from other workers that does nothing for my soul. I thirst for springs of heavenly life as our hymn says and that for me gets right back to the Word. The doctrine of Christ than the doctrines of men. But glad that the shallow way works for many.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 11:39:00 GMT -5
Workers are far from bring unemployed I would say their ministry is now harder than ever. I now realize how valuable the internet can be to us all. We communicate frequently with each other. Paul and the Apostles were often separated from the Christians for months and sometimes years from each other What evolved from that was numerous epistles. 1) Definitely employed. Paid too. ~~ Yes, God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are their Bosses and the friends are theirs helpers. Foods to eat, places to stay over nights, and money they receive from the friends are their wages for their work in preaching the gospel and pastors of God's lambs and sheep. Paul explained more about this in I Cor. 9: 9-14 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
2) Of course there will always need to be a Judas in the midst that holds the bag. Nice that Jesus didn't take part in that although he didn't prevent it either. I think it would scare the life out of me if I was in the ministry and accounted trustworthy enough to be the unofficial treasurer. Dodged that bullet. ~~ To be unofficial treasurers for the 2x2s is an unthankful jobs! Be very careful how they handle the friends trust fund, if they don't pay taxes yearly correctly, and stealing from the funds for themselves... Some have gone to prison for it.
3) Employed is definitely the appropriate word. Jesus said it a little different. He called it the hireling. I watch the workers. They are VERY careful not to tread on the toes of the wealthy and well connected. And they come to our homes not to teach and share from the scriptures. When I was in the work, the friends were very kind to us... We start from 10 A.M. and we don't come back to the house 8-9 PM... six days a week. We had Bible studies at the college and with other people, visiting the friends in nursing homes and try to share some spiritual bread with them. Having lunches with the elderly, and supper with different friends in the fields in the evening, to see if they had any questions they wanted to ask or know. We tried to read/discuss a chapter that we study in most every home after breakfast. Just ask the workers certain subject you want to study about and they will be happy to help you.4) They come with nice shallow words from emails they recieve from other workers that does nothing for my soul. I thirst for springs of heavenly life as our hymn says and that for me gets right back to the Word. The doctrine of Christ than the doctrines of men. But glad that the shallow way works for many. Just ask the workers to share their favorite subjects, thoughts, and revelation they have been studying or thinking. Ask and you shall receive. Good luck!
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 25, 2020 11:42:02 GMT -5
I would first ask, Where does it suggest we must do something to complete the already finished work of Christ?. I think your reading with the mindset that salvation has not been completed. If you read this thinking salvation is not complete than I can see why one would assume works salvation. I read this as, if you overlook those in need, lookout or you will find yourself standing on the left hand side. See the grace granted to you and let it flow onto others. This in no way suggests one will lose his salvation because you cant assume he is talking to only true believers and in no way suggests you must look after the needy to earn salvation. Well that's not exactly what the scriptures say but that's definitely what MANY believe. Many there be that go that way. Yes, our salvation according to scriptures, IS dependent on how we treat a brother that is in a bad situation. Sometimes you can't help because they won't let you. But how we do our "works" today is pretty much every man for himself. Faith without works is dead. I think people don't understand what works really means. SALVATION has been completed. But we have a work to do in order to attain salvation. It's all about relationships. It's not about money, natural works, looking good, looking after our own family and neglecting God's family. But it seems no one gets it. Chuck: In terms of Matthew 25, can someone behave like a "goat", yet have salvation in terms of your theological "finished work" theory? Matthew 25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ 37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ 41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ 44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ 45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ 46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 25, 2020 12:00:15 GMT -5
Workers are far from bring unemployed I would say their ministry is now harder than ever. I now realize how valuable the internet can be to us all. We communicate frequently with each other. Paul and the Apostles were often separated from the Christians for months and sometimes years from each other What evolved from that was numerous epistles. Definitely employed. Paid too. Of course there will always need to be a Judas in the midst that holds the bag. Nice that Jesus didn't take part in that although he didn't prevent it either. I think it would scare the life out of me if I was in the ministry and accounted trustworthy enough to be the unofficial treasurer. Dodged that bullet. Employed is definitely the appropriate word. Jesus said it a little different. He called it the hireling. I watch the workers. They are VERY careful not to tread on the toes of the wealthy and well connected. And they come to our homes not to teach and share from the scriptures. They come with nice shallow words from emails they recieve from other workers that does nothing for my soul. I thirst for springs of heavenly life as our hymn says and that for me gets right back to the Word. The doctrine of Christ than the doctrines of men. But glad that the shallow way works for many. Just wondering why you would be glad that the shallow way works for many. Are you not mourning because of the shallowness you are seeing? Your posts bring the following scripture to mind... Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 25, 2020 12:01:28 GMT -5
To be unofficial treasurers for the 2x2s is an unthankful jobs! Be very careful how they handle the friends trust fund, if they don't pay taxes yearly correctly, and stealing from the funds for themselves... Some have gone to prison for it. Like who?
|
|
|
Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 12:20:25 GMT -5
1) Definitely employed. Paid too. ~~ Yes, God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are their Bosses and the friends are theirs helpers. Foods to eat, places to stay over nights, and money they receive from the friends are their wages for their work in preaching the gospel and pastors of God's lambs and sheep. Paul explained more about this in I Cor. 9: 9-14 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
2) Of course there will always need to be a Judas in the midst that holds the bag. Nice that Jesus didn't take part in that although he didn't prevent it either. I think it would scare the life out of me if I was in the ministry and accounted trustworthy enough to be the unofficial treasurer. Dodged that bullet. ~~ To be unofficial treasurers for the 2x2s is an unthankful jobs! Be very careful how they handle the friends trust fund, if they don't pay taxes yearly correctly, and stealing from the funds for themselves... Some have gone to prison for it.
3) Employed is definitely the appropriate word. Jesus said it a little different. He called it the hireling. I watch the workers. They are VERY careful not to tread on the toes of the wealthy and well connected. And they come to our homes not to teach and share from the scriptures. When I was in the work, the friends were very kind to us... We start from 10 A.M. and we don't come back to the house 8-9 PM... six days a week. We had Bible studies at the college and with other people, visiting the friends in nursing homes and try to share some spiritual bread with them. Having lunches with the elderly, and supper with different friends in the fields in the evening, to see if they had any questions they wanted to ask or know. We tried to read/discuss a chapter that we study in most every home after breakfast. Just ask the workers certain subject you want to study about and they will be happy to help you.4) They come with nice shallow words from emails they recieve from other workers that does nothing for my soul. I thirst for springs of heavenly life as our hymn says and that for me gets right back to the Word. The doctrine of Christ than the doctrines of men. But glad that the shallow way works for many. Just ask the workers to share their favorite subjects, thoughts, and revelation they have been studying or thinking. Ask and you shall receive. Good luck!I was in the work too. Sure it can be a great life. Nice people. Go around visiting people that adore you. Why do so many go into the work today? If they didn't have this pampering we are able to give them through our LEGAL but otherwise compromised business and work practices, how many would be willing to go and how many more would be willing to stay. I have deliberately done business with every one of the friends that I could for a number of years, and it looks ok on the surface, but bring in the light of Christ into it, and Whoa! What an eye opener. Jesus doesn't want us to hide our heads in the sand. He told us to watch. Watch what? Watch everything! In particular watch His own people. It's not what it seems. Sure the "treasurers" may pay the taxes and dot their i's and cross their t's but where and how did that money get their in the first place? That actually matters IMMENSELY to Jesus and probably won't be paid attention to at all in this life. Stealing from the funds is nothing compared to robbing God. That's a whole big topic in itself. How carnally minded we all are that we cannot see nor be willing to accept how far from the mark we are heading! I will support the workers in any way we can but they aren't getting one red cent from me anymore. And we downsized our fancy house that brings so much pride so we can some of the poorer and needier that need it more than we do. Do you think the workers have asked to come and stay in our much more humble abode? Notta one. Especially since we stopped contributing monitarily also. What do the workers need money for? And who is it robbing that needs it more than the workers? You can justify the system all you want, Nat, but I have a lot of contempt for the harm it has been producing. Been watching it for years. As far as the workers going to visit the shut-ins and old people, perhaps they still do that to some that adore/worship them no matter what. But try disagreeing with them on things that Jesus taught that they are not supporting. That's when the truth of the matter becomes real.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 12:22:04 GMT -5
To be unofficial treasurers for the 2x2s is an unthankful jobs! Be very careful how they handle the friends trust fund, if they don't pay taxes yearly correctly, and stealing from the funds for themselves... Some have gone to prison for it. Like who? Someone from Oregon who used to post on TMB, his father was one of those handle the friends trust funds and telling us some of them got in trouble with the IRS. We know of some overseers misused the friend trust fund, and a few of took some of the Money before they left the ministry... one of them was mentioned on TMB in the past... Cherie K. might know about it.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 12:34:44 GMT -5
I was in the work too. Sure it can be a great life. Nice people. Go around visiting people that adore you. Why do so many go into the work today? If they didn't have this pampering we are able to give them through our LEGAL but otherwise compromised business and work practices, how many would be willing to go and how many more would be willing to stay. I have deliberately done business with every one of the friends that I could for a number of years, and it looks ok on the surface, but bring in the light of Christ into it, and Whoa! What an eye opener. Jesus doesn't want us to hide our heads in the sand. He told us to watch. Watch what? Watch everything! In particular watch His own people. It's not what it seems. Sure the "treasurers" may pay the taxes and dot their i's and cross their t's but where and how did that money get their in the first place? That actually matters IMMENSELY to Jesus and probably won't be paid attention to at all in this life. Stealing from the funds is nothing compared to robbing God. That's a whole big topic in itself. How carnally minded we all are that we cannot see nor be willing to accept how far from the mark we are heading! I will support the workers in any way we can but they aren't getting one red cent from me anymore. And we downsized our fancy house that brings so much pride so we can some of the poorer and needier that need it more than we do. Do you think the workers have asked to come and stay in our much more humble abode? Notta one. Especially since we stopped contributing monitarily also. What do the workers need money for? And who is it robbing that needs it more than the workers? You can justify the system all you want, Nathan, but I have a lot of contempt for the harm it has been producing. Been watching it for years. As far as the workers going to visit the shut-ins and old people, perhaps they still do that to some that adore/worship them no matter what. But try disagreeing with them on things that Jesus taught that they are not supporting. That's when the truth of the matter becomes real. That is good to know. Both of us had been in the work so, we know what we are talking about. You share your experienced in the work and I share what I have seen... Give the readers on TMB some ideas what we seen, heard and experienced.
Both you and I and those in the work know the workers are NOT perfect they are humans and they make mistakes like the rest of us. I hope the workers learn from the past mistakes and try NOT to repeat it again in the future.
I know and aware of the concerns in your post. I tried to reason with them on the scriptures some take time to listen but many are resisting it because They believe they know and have more revelation than the friends.
I had companions who tried to stay in most of the friends homes poor or rich in the fields. Some like to stay at certain homes, so they need to recuperate and quite place to rest for a hectic week, and studies for the meetings. I know the friends watched our lives very closedly... Living in the fish bowl so, we didn't want to offend and cause jealousy among them.
|
|
|
Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 12:48:32 GMT -5
Well that's not exactly what the scriptures say but that's definitely what MANY believe. Many there be that go that way. Yes, our salvation according to scriptures, IS dependent on how we treat a brother that is in a bad situation. Sometimes you can't help because they won't let you. But how we do our "works" today is pretty much every man for himself. Faith without works is dead. I think people don't understand what works really means. SALVATION has been completed. But we have a work to do in order to attain salvation. It's all about relationships. It's not about money, natural works, looking good, looking after our own family and neglecting God's family. But it seems no one gets it. Chuck: In terms of Matthew 25, can someone behave like a "goat", yet have salvation in terms of your theological "finished work" theory? Matthew 25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ 37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ 41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ 44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ 45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ 46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.” True. The behavior of the goat. Kick you when you're the most off guard. Don't turn your back on one. They will nail you from behind. See that happening all the time. IN "the truth". Many have suffered quite a few bashes because of the goats. Seen it come from the NICEST and MOST respected and highly esteemed and privileged. Been like that myself. Because when you hang around goats you stink like a goat unless there's divine intervention. It's the leaven thing that Jesus talks about. Disagreeing with the doctrines of men isn't being a goat. We have to live amongst the goats but we don't have to be the goat and just try disagreeing with the NICEST of the workers and see how much lamb there is there. We all have human natures and we can control them to the best of our abilities but unless God builds the house they labor in vain that build it and so it always reminds me I need to ask God to make the change in me. It's not satisfying to my soul when I am simply a "nice person". We think we're sheep because we're trying to be really super nice. The wolf in sheep's clothing does that. But a real sheep doesn't have to pretend. They are what they are and sheep are stubborn if they don't know you. That may look like a goat but they know, this is not my true Master. Something fishy here...I am NOT following you regardless of WHO you say you are.
|
|
|
Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 13:06:06 GMT -5
Definitely employed. Paid too. Of course there will always need to be a Judas in the midst that holds the bag. Nice that Jesus didn't take part in that although he didn't prevent it either. I think it would scare the life out of me if I was in the ministry and accounted trustworthy enough to be the unofficial treasurer. Dodged that bullet. Employed is definitely the appropriate word. Jesus said it a little different. He called it the hireling. I watch the workers. They are VERY careful not to tread on the toes of the wealthy and well connected. And they come to our homes not to teach and share from the scriptures. They come with nice shallow words from emails they recieve from other workers that does nothing for my soul. I thirst for springs of heavenly life as our hymn says and that for me gets right back to the Word. The doctrine of Christ than the doctrines of men. But glad that the shallow way works for many. Just wondering why you would be glad that the shallow way works for many. Are you not mourning because of the shallowness you are seeing? Your posts bring the following scripture to mind... Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. You have no idea what or whether I mourn. You do not KNOW me. Which is why there is no fellowship here. It's impossible to KNOW the person. What we say on here has nothing to do with what we ARE before God. Poor in spirit? PeaceMAKERS (much different from peaceKEEPERS), pure in HEART? Merciful!!?? Oh. My. Word. Yes that's about it. Words. Just words. No if someone finds that things that I find shallow, works for them, I am glad for him. It's not his burden to bear. The valley of vision is a BURDEN as spoken by Ezekiel. And for anyone that wants to point out that His burden is light...that's another topic that probably needs lots more attention and input for comparison.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 13:18:18 GMT -5
Chuck: In terms of Matthew 25, can someone behave like a "goat", yet have salvation in terms of your theological "finished work" theory? Matthew 25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ 37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ 41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ 44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ 45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ 46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.” True. The behavior of the goat. Kick you when you're the most off guard. Don't turn your back on one. They will nail you from behind. See that happening all the time. IN "the truth". Many have suffered quite a few bashes because of the goats. Seen it come from the NICEST and MOST respected and highly esteemed and privileged. Been like that myself. Because when you hang around goats you stink like a goat unless there's divine intervention. It's the leaven thing that Jesus talks about. Disagreeing with the doctrines of men isn't being a goat. We have to live amongst the goats but we don't have to be the goat and just try disagreeing with the NICEST of the workers and see how much lamb there is there. We all have human natures and we can control them to the best of our abilities but unless God builds the house they labor in vain that build it and so it always reminds me I need to ask God to make the change in me. It's not satisfying to my soul when I am simply a "nice person". We think we're sheep because we're trying to be really super nice. The wolf in sheep's clothing does that. But a real sheep doesn't have to pretend. They are what they are and sheep are stubborn if they don't know you. That may look like a goat but they know, this is not my true Master. Something fishy here... I am NOT following you regardless of WHO you say you are. That is why I try to be truthful and honest on TMB of who I am for the last 20 yrs or similar boards through the years. So, when I write or post anything it's truthful according to my understanding, revelation, studies, experiences, the readers can take it or leave it.
|
|
|
Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 13:19:23 GMT -5
I was in the work too. Sure it can be a great life. Nice people. Go around visiting people that adore you. Why do so many go into the work today? If they didn't have this pampering we are able to give them through our LEGAL but otherwise compromised business and work practices, how many would be willing to go and how many more would be willing to stay. I have deliberately done business with every one of the friends that I could for a number of years, and it looks ok on the surface, but bring in the light of Christ into it, and Whoa! What an eye opener. Jesus doesn't want us to hide our heads in the sand. He told us to watch. Watch what? Watch everything! In particular watch His own people. It's not what it seems. Sure the "treasurers" may pay the taxes and dot their i's and cross their t's but where and how did that money get their in the first place? That actually matters IMMENSELY to Jesus and probably won't be paid attention to at all in this life. Stealing from the funds is nothing compared to robbing God. That's a whole big topic in itself. How carnally minded we all are that we cannot see nor be willing to accept how far from the mark we are heading! I will support the workers in any way we can but they aren't getting one red cent from me anymore. And we downsized our fancy house that brings so much pride so we can some of the poorer and needier that need it more than we do. Do you think the workers have asked to come and stay in our much more humble abode? Notta one. Especially since we stopped contributing monitarily also. What do the workers need money for? And who is it robbing that needs it more than the workers? You can justify the system all you want, Nathan, but I have a lot of contempt for the harm it has been producing. Been watching it for years. As far as the workers going to visit the shut-ins and old people, perhaps they still do that to some that adore/worship them no matter what. But try disagreeing with them on things that Jesus taught that they are not supporting. That's when the truth of the matter becomes real. That is good to know. Both of us had been in the work so, we know what we are talking about. You share your experienced in the work and I share what I have seen... Give the readers on TMB some ideas what we seen, heard and experienced.
Both you and I and those in the work know the workers are NOT perfect they are humans and they make mistakes like the rest of us. I hope the workers learn from the past mistakes and try NOT to repeat it again in the future.
I know and aware of the concerns in your post. I tried to reason with them on the scriptures some take time to listen but many are resisting it because They believe they know and have more revelation than the friends.
I had companions who tried to stay in most of the friends homes poor or rich in the fields. Some like to stay at certain homes, so they need to recuperate and quite place to rest for a hectic week, and studies for the meetings. I know the friends watched our lives very closedly... Living in the fish bowl so, we didn't want to offend and cause jealousy among them.
Yes a fishbowl. Heard that said often and really that's a good thing. Shows US where we fail as well as others. And yes they have human natures too. It's endearing to know the workers aren't far different than anyone else except for their calling. So easy to HIGHLY esteem them in love for their work's sake when their works are so like Jesus. Laboring for souls not just going around "from house to house" which Jesus actually said NOT to do, enjoying the best this life can offer and therefore you don't see much suffering or persecution for RIGHTEOUSNESS. Having to answer to someone wanting clarification on scriptures that don't seem to line up with Jesus is not suffering persecution for righteousness sake. Fortunately I didn't have the health to continue because I would have just fell into the trap of enjoying the good life and probably would have not been laboring like Jesus intended. I don't see many doing that. Occasionally, but very rare.
|
|
|
Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 13:21:26 GMT -5
True. The behavior of the goat. Kick you when you're the most off guard. Don't turn your back on one. They will nail you from behind. See that happening all the time. IN "the truth". Many have suffered quite a few bashes because of the goats. Seen it come from the NICEST and MOST respected and highly esteemed and privileged. Been like that myself. Because when you hang around goats you stink like a goat unless there's divine intervention. It's the leaven thing that Jesus talks about. Disagreeing with the doctrines of men isn't being a goat. We have to live amongst the goats but we don't have to be the goat and just try disagreeing with the NICEST of the workers and see how much lamb there is there. We all have human natures and we can control them to the best of our abilities but unless God builds the house they labor in vain that build it and so it always reminds me I need to ask God to make the change in me. It's not satisfying to my soul when I am simply a "nice person". We think we're sheep because we're trying to be really super nice. The wolf in sheep's clothing does that. But a real sheep doesn't have to pretend. They are what they are and sheep are stubborn if they don't know you. That may look like a goat but they know, this is not my true Master. Something fishy here... I am NOT following you regardless of WHO you say you are. That is why I try to be truthful and honest on TMB of who I am for the last 20 yrs on TMB or similar boards through the years. So, when I write or post anything it's truthful according to my understanding, revelation, studies, experiences, the readers can take it or leave it.
I appreciate that about you, Nathan. Would rather hear you speak about Venus and the hollow earth than the canned testimonies that are the norm. At the very least it would provide for a good nap time 😄
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 14:09:18 GMT -5
That is good to know. Both of us had been in the work so, we know what we are talking about. You share your experienced in the work and I share what I have seen... Give the readers on TMB some ideas what we seen, heard and experienced.
Both you and I and those in the work know the workers are NOT perfect they are humans and they make mistakes like the rest of us. I hope the workers learn from the past mistakes and try NOT to repeat it again in the future.
I know and aware of the concerns in your post. I tried to reason with them on the scriptures some take time to listen but many are resisting it because They believe they know and have more revelation than the friends.
I had companions who tried to stay in most of the friends homes poor or rich in the fields. Some like to stay at certain homes, so they need to recuperate and quite place to rest for a hectic week, and studies for the meetings. I know the friends watched our lives very closedly... Living in the fish bowl so, we didn't want to offend and cause jealousy among them.
Yes a fishbowl. Heard that said often and really that's a good thing. Shows US where we fail as well as others. And yes they have human natures too. It's endearing to know the workers aren't far different than anyone else except for their calling. So easy to HIGHLY esteem them in love for their work's sake when their works are so like Jesus. Laboring for souls not just going around "from house to house" which Jesus actually said NOT to do, enjoying the best this life can offer and therefore you don't see much suffering or persecution for RIGHTEOUSNESS. Having to answer to someone wanting clarification on scriptures that don't seem to line up with Jesus is not suffering persecution for righteousness sake. Fortunately I didn't have the health to continue because I would have just fell into the trap of enjoying the good life and probably would have not been laboring like Jesus intended. I don't see many doing that. Occasionally, but very rare. Many people have misunderstood that verse in Matthew 10 "NOT going house to house." Here is my understanding... Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant is moving constantly from one home of believer to the next that is part of their wages, food and lodging and receive the freewill gift of money for their journey!
In Matthew 10 and Luke 10 Jesus sent the 12 and 70 apostles on their first gospel mission without Him, because Jesus KNEW he would return to heaven AFTER he had paid the ransom price for fallen humanity because of sins. Jesus wanted them to be on their own but He would sent the Holy Spirit to guide, teach and protect them while he went back to the Father in heaven.
Matthew 10 and Luke 10 were a short/2 or 3 weeks trial or test of their first mission, Jesus did NOT want them to go from house to house but STAY in One or TWO homes and get their message out to the people in that village. To understand what Jesus was saying a person has to know the custom and cultures in His days. When a stranger travelers enter to a village it was each home duty to invite their guests to stay in their homes and feed them before sending them away... It would have taken a lot of time wasted for visiting with different families... Therefore, Jesus told the 12 and 70 NOT to GO from HOUSE to HOUSE! at this time.
In the gospels and in the book of Acts of apostles we read Jesus, Peter, Paul and his co-workers Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, and others move from house to house of the believers where they get fed and places to stay for the nights during their 3 gospel missions journey.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 14:18:48 GMT -5
That is why I try to be truthful and honest on TMB of who I am for the last 20 yrs on TMB or similar boards through the years. So, when I write or post anything it's truthful according to my understanding, revelation, studies, experiences, the readers can take it or leave it.
I appreciate that about you, Nathan. Would rather hear you speak about Venus and the hollow earth than the canned testimonies that are the norm. At the very least it would provide for a good nap time 😄 Thanks. I don't just talk or discuss the 4000 yrs old history of the past! I want to update the readers and believers the current events of Jesus status, the last 100 yrs, and other events happened before and after the creation of Adam and Eve on TMB for 20 years but these things went above the readers heads. So, I might try to do it again on the General Board NOT on the main page, some on here are NOT very happy about it... they call it science fiction. Now, You see what I have done for 20 years of NOT being a worker!
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 25, 2020 14:22:15 GMT -5
Matthew 10 and Luke 10 were a short/2 or 3 weeks trial or test of their first mission Why do you say 2 or 3 weeks?
|
|
|
Post by iam on Mar 25, 2020 14:30:39 GMT -5
Yes a fishbowl. Heard that said often and really that's a good thing. Shows US where we fail as well as others. And yes they have human natures too. It's endearing to know the workers aren't far different than anyone else except for their calling. So easy to HIGHLY esteem them in love for their work's sake when their works are so like Jesus. Laboring for souls not just going around "from house to house" which Jesus actually said NOT to do, enjoying the best this life can offer and therefore you don't see much suffering or persecution for RIGHTEOUSNESS. Having to answer to someone wanting clarification on scriptures that don't seem to line up with Jesus is not suffering persecution for righteousness sake. Fortunately I didn't have the health to continue because I would have just fell into the trap of enjoying the good life and probably would have not been laboring like Jesus intended. I don't see many doing that. Occasionally, but very rare. Many people have misunderstood that verse in Matthew 10 "NOT going house to house." Here is my understanding... Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant is moving constantly from one home of believer to the next that is part of their wages, food and lodging and receive the freewill gift of money for their journey!
In Matthew 10 and Luke 10 Jesus sent the 12 and 70 apostles on their first gospel mission without Him, because Jesus KNEW he would return to heaven AFTER he had paid the ransom price for fallen humanity because of sins. Jesus wanted them to be on their own but He would sent the Holy Spirit to guide, teach and protect them while he went back to the Father in heaven.
Matthew 10 and Luke 10 were a short/2 or 3 weeks trial or test of their first mission, Jesus did NOT want them to go from house to house but STAY in One or TWO homes and get their message out to the people in that village. To understand what Jesus was saying a person has to know the custom and cultures in His days. When a stranger travelers enter to a village it was each home duty to invite their guests to stay in their homes and feed them before sending them away... It would have taken a lot of time wasted for visiting with different families... Therefore, Jesus told the 12 and 70 NOT to GO from HOUSE to HOUSE! at this time.
In the gospels and in the book of Acts of apostles we read Jesus, Peter, Paul and his co-workers Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, and others move from house to house of the believers where they get fed and places to stay for the nights during their 3 gospel missions journey.
I think in the Acts the apostles would have held to the teachings of Jesus as much as possible in that regard even in their travels. There are many reasons why going from house to house is detrimental. In many ways. But it's another tradition and traditions don't want to die. And some that have tried to change a tradition in order to be more in line with Jesus and that's when the fit hits the shan. Fear of man keeps things the same whether there are reasons to change or not. Sure some conventions have changed from the dishwashing systems they had to paper plates and plastic cutlery, but what about change that brings us more in line with Jesus? No one has the courage to go there. And they all get their heads together to reason with one another rather than spending time with the Word. There are DIFFERENCES of administrations. The overseers today seem to want to think the SAME as each other, thinking this is what unity is. So we have sameness of MAN'S minds and no diversity of administration. Which is stale. Thanks to instant gratification communication we get sameness of human thinking throughout the world but great diversity of doctrines. Pure of heart? Nothing pure about that.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 14:55:06 GMT -5
Many people have misunderstood that verse in Matthew 10 "NOT going house to house." Here is my understanding... Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant is moving constantly from one home of believer to the next that is part of their wages, food and lodging and receive the freewill gift of money for their journey!
In Matthew 10 and Luke 10 Jesus sent the 12 and 70 apostles on their first gospel mission without Him, because Jesus KNEW he would return to heaven AFTER he had paid the ransom price for fallen humanity because of sins. Jesus wanted them to be on their own but He would sent the Holy Spirit to guide, teach and protect them while he went back to the Father in heaven.
Matthew 10 and Luke 10 were a short/2 or 3 weeks trial or test of their first mission, Jesus did NOT want them to go from house to house but STAY in One or TWO homes and get their message out to the people in that village. To understand what Jesus was saying a person has to know the custom and cultures in His days. When a stranger travelers enter to a village it was each home duty to invite their guests to stay in their homes and feed them before sending them away... It would have taken a lot of time wasted for visiting with different families... Therefore, Jesus told the 12 and 70 NOT to GO from HOUSE to HOUSE! at this time.
In the gospels and in the book of Acts of apostles we read Jesus, Peter, Paul and his co-workers Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, and others move from house to house of the believers where they get fed and places to stay for the nights during their 3 gospel missions journey.
I think in the Acts the apostles would have held to the teachings of Jesus as much as possible in that regard even in their travels. There are many reasons why going from house to house is detrimental. In many ways. But it's another tradition and traditions don't want to die. And some that have tried to change a tradition in order to be more in line with Jesus and that's when the fit hits the shan. Fear of man keeps things the same whether there are reasons to change or not. Sure some conventions have changed from the dishwashing systems they had to paper plates and plastic cutlery, but what about change that brings us more in line with Jesus? No one has the courage to go there. And they all get their heads together to reason with one another rather than spending time with the Word. There are DIFFERENCES of administrations. The overseers today seem to want to think the SAME as each other, thinking this is what unity is. So we have sameness of MAN'S minds and no diversity of administration. Which is stale. Thanks to instant gratification communication we get sameness of human thinking throughout the world but great diversity of doctrines. Pure of heart? Nothing pure about that. The apostles, the Faith Mission, or the 2x2 workers did NOT come with the idea for the preachers go from HOUSE to HOUSE but it came God the Father and Christ teaching, it came from above/heaven. If it was detrimental/BAD idea God the Father and Christ would NOT have set it his apostles going/staying from house to house of their followers through the centuries.
We read Jesus went from house of houses of unbelievers (they invite Jesus and his apostles to their homes, wedding feast at Cannan, the Pharisee home and so on), and believers (Peter's mother in law house, Lazarus/Mary and Marth house, Zacheus and so on).
Workers staying in the friends homes are so AWESOME! these are one of the most high light of my years in the ministry. The sheep get to KNOW the shepherds and the shepherds get to know the sheep by names. There is a beautiful bond between and shepherds and the sheep and the lambs. The children and the parents were so anxious to see us to stay in their homes when I was in the work in 2004. Unfortunately, there had been BAD/Corrupt apples of workers with CSA problem that spoiled the whole beautiful barrel of apples, which set up by God and Christ. The bond of between of shepherds and sheep and lambs are very precious experiences that you don't have in the world.
I am so happy that the Overseers around the world will no longer tolerate CSA within the ministry anymore! no more sweeping under the carpet, or sending the workers who are guilty of horrible crimes to stay in the work or cover up their evil deeds.
We read in the epistles and the book of Acts there were divisions within Peter and Pau's administration but they are part of the same Godhead and Christ's ministry so, the Holy Spirit united them as one mind like in Acts 15 in situations and doctrines. We see how Paul, Peter and Barnabas have different opinions and disagreement on various issues but they didn't go and start their own church but they work things out.
|
|