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Post by rational on Aug 26, 2019 18:40:56 GMT -5
This is a common mistake humans make. Putting God in their image and not understanding we’re made in his, spirits. So all the emotions God has, anger, disappointment wrath etc. aren't really human feelings, they are Godly feelings? If we're like him then why is it when we get angry, or jealous or disappointed people say they are human feelings then? I can tell you are looking for a logical story with all of the bits neatly tied up with bows you could be looking in the wrong place.
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Post by snow on Aug 26, 2019 18:42:19 GMT -5
I don't really understand how that makes any difference. It was the angels that knew and lived with God that were upset with God, enough to start a war. What's to stop more angels in the future from doing the very same thing? Just because Jesus now knows what it's like to be human really doesn't address the unhappy states of his angels. I don't see the connection. Satan started the war because he wanted to be God! The angels Satan had with him are those who had been assigned to help him as he had been a major angel. Their loyalties were with Satan. It says that God’s angels(Michael the arch angel and his angels) won the war in heaven by “they overcame him(Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Everything changed when Jesus was crucified. His blood cleanses the sinners, frees the captives, overcomes Satan and his angels( note Michael had his angels also). Having suffered being tempted just as any human is, Jesus’ intercession with the Father is ladened with understanding. He s could say to the Father when the Father is angry over some human’s sins, “ But Father! I died so that sin is covered by my blood and our forgiveness.” Well that's Gods story anyway. Of course he'd blame Satan for being unhappy wouldn't he? After all it does destroy the image of everything being wonderful in heaven. Can't have that...
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Post by snow on Aug 26, 2019 18:44:46 GMT -5
So all the emotions God has, anger, disappointment wrath etc. aren't really human feelings, they are Godly feelings? If we're like him then why is it when we get angry, or jealous or disappointed people say they are human feelings then? No they are Gods Feelings. We have spirits too that harbor these same feelings but we use human reasonings. I'm not sure how our 'reasonings' are any different then God's when we're talking about just possessing the Godly emotions of jealousy, anger, wrath etc. What difference would it make?
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Post by snow on Aug 26, 2019 18:46:41 GMT -5
So all the emotions God has, anger, disappointment wrath etc. aren't really human feelings, they are Godly feelings? If we're like him then why is it when we get angry, or jealous or disappointed people say they are human feelings then? I can tell you are looking for a logical story with all of the bits neatly tied up with bows you could be looking in the wrong place. Wouldn't be the first time.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 26, 2019 18:48:16 GMT -5
Satan started the war because he wanted to be God! The angels Satan had with him are those who had been assigned to help him as he had been a major angel. Their loyalties were with Satan. It says that God’s angels(Michael the arch angel and his angels) won the war in heaven by “they overcame him(Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Everything changed when Jesus was crucified. His blood cleanses the sinners, frees the captives, overcomes Satan and his angels( note Michael had his angels also). Having suffered being tempted just as any human is, Jesus’ intercession with the Father is ladened with understanding. He s could say to the Father when the Father is angry over some human’s sins, “ But Father! I died so that sin is covered by my blood and our forgiveness.” Well that's Gods story anyway. Of course he'd blame Satan for being unhappy wouldn't he? After all it does destroy the image of everything being wonderful in heaven. Can't have that... Apparently as there is to be another heaven and earth, I don’t take it all is perfect yet!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 26, 2019 18:49:17 GMT -5
No they are Gods Feelings. We have spirits too that harbor these same feelings but we use human reasonings. I'm not sure how our 'reasonings' are any different then God's when we're talking about just possessing the Godly emotions of jealousy, anger, wrath etc. What difference would it make? Human reasonings and limited wisdom, knowledge, and understanding.
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Post by rational on Aug 26, 2019 18:52:48 GMT -5
Satan started the war because he wanted to be God! Why? What would be the motive? Living with god he would have known he couldn't win. And what was the gain if he did win? The story makes little sense if the actors have human desires but make much less sense if they are paranormal. How could god be defeated? A sword? Arrow? What would that war look like? God, by definition, is an omnipotent omniscient being. He would have known what was going to happem and would have been easily able to defeat or even destroy the opposition. Why allow they to go free? Loyal to what cause? Exactly what were the weapons? This whole thing does not make a lot of sense. Sounds like two humans fighting over who has the most ants on their side.
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Post by snow on Aug 26, 2019 18:56:55 GMT -5
I'm not sure how our 'reasonings' are any different then God's when we're talking about just possessing the Godly emotions of jealousy, anger, wrath etc. What difference would it make? Human reasonings and limited wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. So when God has feelings of disappointment, anger and jealousy it's okay but when we have such feelings it's not okay, even if they are Godly feelings? How does wisdom, knowledge and understanding make any difference when having an emotion? God gets mad, he sometimes kills. Man gets mad, he sometimes kills. God gets jealous he sometimes kills or won't have anything to do with those people anymore. Same with man. When God gets disappointed he wishes he hadn't created man. When man gets disappointed he also wishes he hadn't done whatever he's disappointed about. It seems very much the same to me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 18:59:28 GMT -5
Human reasonings and limited wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. So when God has feelings of disappointment, anger and jealousy it's okay but when we have such feelings it's not okay, even if they are Godly feelings? How does wisdom, knowledge and understanding make any difference when having an emotion? God gets mad, he sometimes kills. Man gets mad, he sometimes kills. God gets jealous he sometimes kills or won't have anything to do with those people anymore. Same with man. When God gets disappointed he wishes he hadn't created man. When man gets disappointed he also wishes he hadn't done whatever he's disappointed about. It seems very much the same to me. well God has a right to express those things in righteous it is his creation you know, we don't for we are his creation and must do as he asks us....
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Post by snow on Aug 26, 2019 19:01:21 GMT -5
Satan started the war because he wanted to be God! Why? What would be the motive? Living with god he would have known he couldn't win. And what was the gain if he did win? The story makes little sense if the actors have human desires but make much less sense if they are paranormal. How could god be defeated? A sword? Arrow? What would that war look like? God, by definition, is an omnipotent omniscient being. He would have known what was going to happem and would have been easily able to defeat or even destroy the opposition. Why allow they to go free? Loyal to what cause? Exactly what were the weapons? This whole thing does not make a lot of sense. Sounds like two humans fighting over who has the most ants on their side. That's exactly what I've been asking for a long time. Why would Satan and his angels even try to overthrow someone they knew they couldn't even have a chance of winning against? The story makes no sense. And, if heaven is so wonderful, why would they want to rebel in the first place? And, since it's also said that only humans have free will, and angels don't, how would they even be capable of rebelling?
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Post by snow on Aug 26, 2019 19:02:46 GMT -5
So when God has feelings of disappointment, anger and jealousy it's okay but when we have such feelings it's not okay, even if they are Godly feelings? How does wisdom, knowledge and understanding make any difference when having an emotion? God gets mad, he sometimes kills. Man gets mad, he sometimes kills. God gets jealous he sometimes kills or won't have anything to do with those people anymore. Same with man. When God gets disappointed he wishes he hadn't created man. When man gets disappointed he also wishes he hadn't done whatever he's disappointed about. It seems very much the same to me. well God has a right to express those things in righteous it is his creation you know, we don't for we are his creation and must do as he asks us.... Well STR says they are Godly feelings so why is it wrong for us to express Godly feelings? He gives us these feelings that he uses all the time and then he expects us to not use them?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 26, 2019 19:18:42 GMT -5
Satan started the war because he wanted to be God! Why? What would be the motive? Living with god he would have known he couldn't win. And what was the gain if he did win? The story makes little sense if the actors have human desires but make much less sense if they are paranormal. How could god be defeated? A sword? Arrow? What would that war look like? God, by definition, is an omnipotent omniscient being. He would have known what was going to happem and would have been easily able to defeat or even destroy the opposition. Why allow they to go free? Loyal to what cause? Exactly what were the weapons? This whole thing does not make a lot of sense. Sounds like two humans fighting over who has the most ants on their side. They had lusts, apparently were well developed, created angels. They went to earth to mate with daughters of man. So they weren’t happy to live the life of eunuchvangels. Satan had been given powers by God that most other angels didn’t have. He got the bug head because he could do so many things and just thought to unseat his creator. God said he was a beautiful angel, he just got out of hand and head with his special place amongst the angels. I’m not sure why he was created able to be that way for Jesus said resurrected people in heaven would be like the angels, neither marrying nor orocreating! As well I’m not sure why humans were made to be as they are either, then it seems Satan had a whole lot to do with their fall.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 26, 2019 19:22:59 GMT -5
Human reasonings and limited wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. So when God has feelings of disappointment, anger and jealousy it's okay but when we have such feelings it's not okay, even if they are Godly feelings? How does wisdom, knowledge and understanding make any difference when having an emotion? God gets mad, he sometimes kills. Man gets mad, he sometimes kills. God gets jealous he sometimes kills or won't have anything to do with those people anymore. Same with man. When God gets disappointed he wishes he hadn't created man. When man gets disappointed he also wishes he hadn't done whatever he's disappointed about. It seems very much the same to me. Again, these things written in the Bible were by humans. It was their understanding of God. They were growing in understanding him but they too just like us pegged him as our minds peg him in human image and behaviors. I’m certain that if and when God got it gets angry, as he is the creator of all things, can be justified in dealing with his creation as he so sees fit. As Job said, though He slay me, I will trust in God.
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Post by snow on Aug 26, 2019 19:34:57 GMT -5
Why? What would be the motive? Living with god he would have known he couldn't win. And what was the gain if he did win? The story makes little sense if the actors have human desires but make much less sense if they are paranormal. How could god be defeated? A sword? Arrow? What would that war look like? God, by definition, is an omnipotent omniscient being. He would have known what was going to happem and would have been easily able to defeat or even destroy the opposition. Why allow they to go free? Loyal to what cause? Exactly what were the weapons? This whole thing does not make a lot of sense. Sounds like two humans fighting over who has the most ants on their side. They had lusts, apparently were well developed, created angels. They went to earth to mate with daughters of man. So they weren’t happy to live the life of eunuchvangels. Satan had been given powers by God that most other angels didn’t have. He got the bug head because he could do so many things and just thought to unseat his creator. God said he was a beautiful angel, he just got out of hand and head with his special place amongst the angels. I’m not sure why he was created able to be that way for Jesus said resurrected people in heaven would be like the angels, neither marrying nor orocreating! As well I’m not sure why humans were made to be as they are either, then it seems Satan had a whole lot to do with their fall. I think it's interesting as to who Lucifer actually was. He was called the 'Lightbringer'. Another thing of interest is that Lucifer is the Latin name for the planet Venus, the bright morning star! He was also called the Shining One. He was the first created angel. What if he is really the good guy still? After all we only have God's word for it that he was the bad guy. What if God isn't what people think he is and is really a tyrant like he is portrayed in the OT? What if Lucifer saw this and tried to save God's creation from him?
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Post by snow on Aug 26, 2019 19:38:08 GMT -5
So when God has feelings of disappointment, anger and jealousy it's okay but when we have such feelings it's not okay, even if they are Godly feelings? How does wisdom, knowledge and understanding make any difference when having an emotion? God gets mad, he sometimes kills. Man gets mad, he sometimes kills. God gets jealous he sometimes kills or won't have anything to do with those people anymore. Same with man. When God gets disappointed he wishes he hadn't created man. When man gets disappointed he also wishes he hadn't done whatever he's disappointed about. It seems very much the same to me. Again, these things written in the Bible were by humans. It was their understanding of God. They were growing in understanding him but they too just like us pegged him as our minds peg him in human image and behaviors. I’m certain that if and when God got it gets angry, as he is the creator of all things, can be justified in dealing with his creation as he so sees fit. As Job said, though He slay me, I will trust in God. Then why is the bible said to be the word of God or at the very least the inspired word of God? If it's God's word there shouldn't be any mistakes. Surely he was capable of having what he wanted known written down accurately? As far as God being justified in genocide, I just don't buy that. If a being is all loving and all merciful, genocide wouldn't even cross their minds imo.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 21:13:16 GMT -5
They had lusts, apparently were well developed, created angels. They went to earth to mate with daughters of man. So they weren’t happy to live the life of eunuchvangels. Satan had been given powers by God that most other angels didn’t have. He got the bug head because he could do so many things and just thought to unseat his creator. God said he was a beautiful angel, he just got out of hand and head with his special place amongst the angels. I’m not sure why he was created able to be that way for Jesus said resurrected people in heaven would be like the angels, neither marrying nor orocreating! As well I’m not sure why humans were made to be as they are either, then it seems Satan had a whole lot to do with their fall. I think it's interesting as to who Lucifer actually was. He was called the 'Lightbringer'. Another thing of interest is that Lucifer is the Latin name for the planet Venus, the bright morning star! He was also called the Shining One. He was the first created angel. What if he is really the good guy still? After all we only have God's word for it that he was the bad guy. What if God isn't what people think he is and is really a tyrant like he is portrayed in the OT? What if Lucifer saw this and tried to save God's creation from him? that would make a interesting movie but its not realistic....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 21:14:57 GMT -5
well God has a right to express those things in righteous it is his creation you know, we don't for we are his creation and must do as he asks us.... Well STR says they are Godly feelings so why is it wrong for us to express Godly feelings? He gives us these feelings that he uses all the time and then he expects us to not use them? STR also suggested we don't use them properly(human understanding)....
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 26, 2019 21:27:29 GMT -5
Again, these things written in the Bible were by humans. It was their understanding of God. They were growing in understanding him but they too just like us pegged him as our minds peg him in human image and behaviors. I’m certain that if and when God got it gets angry, as he is the creator of all things, can be justified in dealing with his creation as he so sees fit. As Job said, though He slay me, I will trust in God. Then why is the bible said to be the word of God or at the very least the inspired word of God? If it's God's word there shouldn't be any mistakes. Surely he was capable of having what he wanted known written down accurately? As far as God being justified in genocide, I just don't buy that. If a being is all loving and all merciful, genocide wouldn't even cross their minds imo. Well, a lot is passed down by mouth before someone write it, you know things get human understanding added to it all the time. I think it’s said that the OT is a very real sign of people learning about God and as time went on, they saw him differently. Course some of that difference comes from mankind growing in wisdom about things and people all around. As it to being God’s Word. The Bible contains a lot of mysteries and they only become evident to whom God sees as being ready to understand them.
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Post by nathan on Aug 26, 2019 21:37:04 GMT -5
That is TRUE but once he put Satan in the lake of fire forever and all of his followers on earth with him, then God will ONLY KNOW happiness and joy. The chief trouble maker is gone forever, the time of peace and joy will go on forever. God has no more enemy to worry about, no need to be upset, angry, revenge to be needed. But what's to stop some more angels from getting upset and trying to change things? It happened once, what's to say it can't happen again? And God has regretted making people a few times in the bible, so obviously God is quite capable of sadness, anger and even wrath. The good angels KNEW and SAW what happened to Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels fate= thrown into the lake of fire forever. I don't think they want to REBEL or FIGHT against God and Christ in the New Earth and heaven. God can destroy them and any humans/born again that thinking of rebel this time instantly! ZAP, He will NOT let them to go on like He did with Satan and the fallen angels.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 21:41:55 GMT -5
That is TRUE but once he put Satan in the lake of fire forever and all of his followers on earth with him, then God will ONLY KNOW happiness and joy. The chief trouble maker is gone forever, the time of peace and joy will go on forever. God has no more enemy to worry about, no need to be upset, angry, revenge to be needed. But what's to stop some more angels from getting upset and trying to change things? It happened once, what's to say it can't happen again? And God has regretted making people a few times in the bible, so obviously God is quite capable of sadness, anger and even wrath. God has promised that the former things would pass away so things like rebellion and such will go away so while its possible that could happen i don't think it will happen.....
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Post by nathan on Aug 26, 2019 21:42:57 GMT -5
I think it's interesting as to who Lucifer actually was. He was called the 'Lightbringer'. Another thing of interest is that Lucifer is the Latin name for the planet Venus, the bright morning star! He was also called the Shining One. He was the first created angel. What if he is really the good guy still? After all we only have God's word for it that he was the bad guy. What if God isn't what people think he is and is really a tyrant like he is portrayed in the OT? What if Lucifer saw this and tried to save God's creation from him? that would make a interesting movie but its not realistic.... This is what Christ/Jesus was Satan's creator said about him in John 10, "He was a murder from beginning there is NO TRUTH in him and he is the father of lies"
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Post by nathan on Aug 26, 2019 21:43:39 GMT -5
But what's to stop some more angels from getting upset and trying to change things? It happened once, what's to say it can't happen again? And God has regretted making people a few times in the bible, so obviously God is quite capable of sadness, anger and even wrath. The good angels KNEW and SAW what happened to Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels fate= thrown into the lake of fire forever. I don't think they want to REBEL or FIGHT against God and Christ in the New Earth and heaven. God can destroy them and any humans/born again that thinking of rebel this time instantly! ZAP, He will NOT let them to go on like He did with Satan and the fallen angels.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 27, 2019 0:03:35 GMT -5
The angels are created beings. So they could well have tendencies like humans and that would be to fall. Just like Adam and Eve were sinless but Satan had power to deceive them and thus the fall of man.
Likely God has never given angels the power that he gave Satan.
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Post by rational on Aug 27, 2019 8:45:52 GMT -5
But what's to stop some more angels from getting upset and trying to change things? It happened once, what's to say it can't happen again? And God has regretted making people a few times in the bible, so obviously God is quite capable of sadness, anger and even wrath. God has promised that the former things pass away so things like rebellion and such will go away so while its possible that could happen i don't think it will happen..... I don't think it ever did happen any more than did The Epic of Gilgamesh. How could an all knowing god have regrets? Knowing all means that you know all. If you know you are going to regret making people - don't make them.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 27, 2019 10:57:40 GMT -5
God has promised that the former things pass away so things like rebellion and such will go away so while its possible that could happen i don't think it will happen..... I don't think it ever did happen any more than did The Epic of Gilgamesh. How could an all knowing god have regrets? Knowing all means that you know all. If you know you are going to regret making people - don't make them. Genesis 6:7. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls if the air; “for it tepenteth me that I have made them.”
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Post by snow on Aug 27, 2019 12:26:38 GMT -5
I think it's interesting as to who Lucifer actually was. He was called the 'Lightbringer'. Another thing of interest is that Lucifer is the Latin name for the planet Venus, the bright morning star! He was also called the Shining One. He was the first created angel. What if he is really the good guy still? After all we only have God's word for it that he was the bad guy. What if God isn't what people think he is and is really a tyrant like he is portrayed in the OT? What if Lucifer saw this and tried to save God's creation from him? that would make a interesting movie but its not realistic.... Since I don't believe in Gods, devils, heavens and hells, I know you realize I'm just being silly. But the point I was trying to make was that if there is a God it doesn't necessarily have to be anything like the Christian God is said to be. Just because he's a God doesn't mean he has to be benign. In fact, in the OT he is not benign. The cognitive dissonance comes when theists try to equate the God of the OT with a loving God. They don't match so many have to say that God is loving and what he did in the OT was not understandable by our 'little minds' and because he is our creator 'he can do whatever he wants with us'. However, it could be something as simple as this. He isn't a loving God and that actually correlates better with what we see happening in this world. An all loving all merciful all powerful God would not let children by tortured and sexually abused. When we make excuses for that God saying we just don't understand why he allows CSA, we really are willfully ignoring the possibility that he really doesn't care about his creation one bit. That certainly rings true in what we see today in the world and also how he tried to exterminate his creation in the OT.
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Post by snow on Aug 27, 2019 12:29:25 GMT -5
Then why is the bible said to be the word of God or at the very least the inspired word of God? If it's God's word there shouldn't be any mistakes. Surely he was capable of having what he wanted known written down accurately? As far as God being justified in genocide, I just don't buy that. If a being is all loving and all merciful, genocide wouldn't even cross their minds imo. Well, a lot is passed down by mouth before someone write it, you know things get human understanding added to it all the time. I think it’s said that the OT is a very real sign of people learning about God and as time went on, they saw him differently. Course some of that difference comes from mankind growing in wisdom about things and people all around. As it to being God’s Word. The Bible contains a lot of mysteries and they only become evident to whom God sees as being ready to understand them. So why does the bible carry so much weight in Christianity? The OT God is actually the Jewish God and he was not defined as Christians define him now, as a trinity. The Hebrew people never believed in a Jesus or a Holy spirit. They had Yahweh, one God, not 3 in 1. We see many Christians taking the bible as an inerrant book that they believe is 100% accurate.
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Post by snow on Aug 27, 2019 12:30:34 GMT -5
But what's to stop some more angels from getting upset and trying to change things? It happened once, what's to say it can't happen again? And God has regretted making people a few times in the bible, so obviously God is quite capable of sadness, anger and even wrath. The good angels KNEW and SAW what happened to Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels fate= thrown into the lake of fire forever. I don't think they want to REBEL or FIGHT against God and Christ in the New Earth and heaven. God can destroy them and any humans/born again that thinking of rebel this time instantly! ZAP, He will NOT let them to go on like He did with Satan and the fallen angels.Nathan, I'm absolutely sure that any angels, Lucifer and 1/3 of the ones that rebelled also knew they couldn't win so why wouldn't what you just wrote apply to them also?
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