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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2019 20:12:05 GMT -5
That is what you call revelation from above. No! It’s called two by two indoctrination! They’ve used that story/parable for a frightening gospel story for ages. It’s wrong.Gospel means “good news”. There’s nothing “good news” in that parable used as a gospel story. Making it a gospel story is a dire thing. It could cause some people to think it’s better to be living on the streets, starving to death, in order to get to heaven. And THAT is just not the way to salvation. Never was and never will be. Salvation has been purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ. There’s not one iota of things to do to make salvation ours except to believe on him whom God hath sent! It's the TRUTH and NOT a 2x2 doctrine. Here is some question as to whether this story is a true, real-life account or a parable, since two of its characters are named (making it unique among parables). Parable or not, however, there is a much we can learn from this passage: First of all, Jesus teaches here that heaven and hell are both real, literal places. Sadly, many preachers shy away from uncomfortable topics such as hell. Some even teach “universalism” – the belief that everyone goes to heaven. Yet Christ spoke about hell a great deal, as did Paul, Peter, John, Jude, and the writer of Hebrews. The Bible is clear that every person who has ever lived will spend eternity in either heaven or hell. Like the rich man in the story, multitudes today are complacent in their conviction that all is well with their soul, and many will hear our Savior tell them otherwise when they die (Matthew 7:23). This story also illustrates that once we cross the eternal horizon, that’s it. There are no more chances. The transition to our eternal state takes place the moment we die (2 Corinthians 5:8; Luke 23:43; Philippians 1:23). When believers die, they are immediately in the conscious fellowship and joys of heaven. When unbelievers die, they are just as immediately in the conscious pain, suffering, and torment of hell. Notice the rich man didn’t ask for his brothers to pray for his release from some purgatorial middle ground, thereby expediting his journey to heaven. He knew he was in hell, and he knew why. That’s why his requests were merely to be comforted and to have a warning sent to his brothers. He knew there was no escape. He was eternally separated from God, and Abraham made it clear to him that there was no hope of ever mitigating his pain, suffering, or sorrow. Those in hell will perfectly recollect missed opportunities and their rejection of the gospel.Like many these days who buy into the “prosperity gospel,” the rich man wrongly saw his material riches as evidence of God’s love and blessing. Likewise, he believed the poor and destitute, like Lazarus, were cursed by God. Yet, as the apostle James exhorted, “You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter” (James 5:5). Not only do riches not get one into heaven, but they have the power to separate a person from God in a way that few other things can. Riches are deceitful (Mark 4:19). It is certainly not impossible for the very rich to enter heaven (many heroes of the Bible were wealthy), but Scripture is clear that it is very hard (Matthew 19:23-24; Mark 10:23-25; Luke 18:24-25). www.gotquestions.org/rich-man-and-Lazarus.html
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 30, 2019 20:24:18 GMT -5
No! It’s called two by two indoctrination! They’ve used that story/parable for a frightening gospel story for ages. It’s wrong.Gospel means “good news”. There’s nothing “good news” in that parable used as a gospel story. Making it a gospel story is a dire thing. It could cause some people to think it’s better to be living on the streets, starving to death, in order to get to heaven. And THAT is just not the way to salvation. Never was and never will be. Salvation has been purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ. There’s not one iota of things to do to make salvation ours except to believe on him whom God hath sent! It's the TRUTH and NOT a 2x2 doctrine. Here is some question as to whether this story is a true, real-life account or a parable, since two of its characters are named (making it unique among parables). Parable or not, however, there is a much we can learn from this passage: First of all, Jesus teaches here that heaven and hell are both real, literal places. Sadly, many preachers shy away from uncomfortable topics such as hell. Some even teach “universalism” – the belief that everyone goes to heaven. Yet Christ spoke about hell a great deal, as did Paul, Peter, John, Jude, and the writer of Hebrews. The Bible is clear that every person who has ever lived will spend eternity in either heaven or hell. Like the rich man in the story, multitudes today are complacent in their conviction that all is well with their soul, and many will hear our Savior tell them otherwise when they die (Matthew 7:23). This story also illustrates that once we cross the eternal horizon, that’s it. There are no more chances. The transition to our eternal state takes place the moment we die (2 Corinthians 5:8; Luke 23:43; Philippians 1:23). When believers die, they are immediately in the conscious fellowship and joys of heaven. When unbelievers die, they are just as immediately in the conscious pain, suffering, and torment of hell. Notice the rich man didn’t ask for his brothers to pray for his release from some purgatorial middle ground, thereby expediting his journey to heaven. He knew he was in hell, and he knew why. That’s why his requests were merely to be comforted and to have a warning sent to his brothers. He knew there was no escape. He was eternally separated from God, and Abraham made it clear to him that there was no hope of ever mitigating his pain, suffering, or sorrow. Those in hell will perfectly recollect missed opportunities and their rejection of the gospel.Like many these days who buy into the “prosperity gospel,” the rich man wrongly saw his material riches as evidence of God’s love and blessing. Likewise, he believed the poor and destitute, like Lazarus, were cursed by God. Yet, as the apostle James exhorted, “You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter” (James 5:5). Not only do riches not get one into heaven, but they have the power to separate a person from God in a way that few other things can. Riches are deceitful (Mark 4:19). It is certainly not impossible for the very rich to enter heaven (many heroes of the Bible were wealthy), but Scripture is clear that it is very hard (Matthew 19:23-24; Mark 10:23-25; Luke 18:24-25). www.gotquestions.org/rich-man-and-Lazarus.htmlThat does not say that the poor beggar would automatically have salvation. That is only repeating whAt Jesus was trying to tell the self-righteous covetous Pharisees. I don’t believe when the unsaved are in hell fire until after Judgment Day. The only sensation they might have is that God has forsaken them. They can never know the presence of God, for sure, now. Thus the cry Jesus made in the cross, “ Ny God, my God. Why hast thou forsaken me.” The unsaved will not know the full reward of their deeds until after Judgment. There will be no wailing and gnashing of teeth until they are resurrected to see the risen Messiah on his way to his millennial reign. “Every eye shall see him.”
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Post by rational on Aug 30, 2019 20:36:24 GMT -5
Is the lake of fire real? Where is it? What is burning in the lake? It's NOT an actual lake of fire... because the unbelievers have no bodies, but souls and the conscious minds. The Rich man remembered his past, Lazarus, knowing who Abraham was, and his brothers and family were still alive on the earth.
So how does the "lake of fire' at all painful to a non-physical body? There are no nerves to sense the pain. In fact, as far as you know there is nothing. So what is behind the threat of the lake? Is it just a scare tactic? You threaten with a lake of fire and then admit there is no lake.
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Post by rational on Aug 30, 2019 20:37:41 GMT -5
Would you be comfortable sitting in heaven viewing those who are in obvious pain and torment? The Old and New Testament believers are in heaven, they NOT able to see those HELL/Hades the Inner earth suffering or sorrows.So that story was not true? It is just a story to make a point. What some would call an allegory?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 20:39:36 GMT -5
Would you be comfortable sitting in heaven viewing those who are in obvious pain and torment? no one goes to hell by accident, they made their choice....my grandpa had an NDE and said he saw the chasm and so many people on the wrong side but there was nothing he/they could do about it...in the new heaven and earth to come i doubt we will be seeing them although they might be able to see us....
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2019 21:17:37 GMT -5
It's NOT an actual lake of fire... because the unbelievers have no bodies, but souls and the conscious minds. The Rich man remembered his past, Lazarus, knowing who Abraham was, and his brothers and family were still alive on the earth.
So how does the "lake of fire' at all painful to a non-physical body? There are no nerves to sense the pain. In fact, as far as you know there is nothing. So what is behind the threat of the lake? Is it just a scare tactic? You threaten with a lake of fire and then admit there is no lake. *** Well, I can only point out what are written in the Bible. The unbelievers will find out about Hades after death and the lake of fire after the judgment day. How it works with non-physical bodies? I don't know. I am glad that I will NOT find out the hard way.
Christ has tasted the horrible Hades and the second death/Lake of fire in the person Jesus for us believers on Calvary so, we don't have to go through the sufferings after death.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 30, 2019 21:30:03 GMT -5
Would you be comfortable sitting in heaven viewing those who are in obvious pain and torment? no one goes to hell by accident, they made their choice....my grandpa had an NDE and said he saw the chasm and so many people on the wrong side but there was nothing he/they could do about it...in the new heaven and earth to come i doubt we will be seeing them although they might be able to see us.... The martyrs in heaven under the altar in Revelations , awoke and asked when their avengence was going to be carried out. They were told to go back to rest, time was not yet. So apparently the souls in heaven are at rest but are aware at some point when something is done or not done.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 30, 2019 21:33:40 GMT -5
So how does the "lake of fire' at all painful to a non-physical body? There are no nerves to sense the pain. In fact, as far as you know there is nothing. So what is behind the threat of the lake? Is it just a scare tactic? You threaten with a lake of fire and then admit there is no lake. *** Well, I can only point out what written in the Bible. The unbelievers will find out about Hades after death and the lake of fire after the judgment day. Christ has tasted the horrible Hades and the second death/Lake of fire in the person Jesus for us believers on Calvary so, we don't have to go through the sufferings after death. He sipped from our cup of God’s wrath and this was when he cried, “ My God, my God! Why hast thou forsaken me.” This was eternal death to him. Or a taste of it. This is what he’d prayed so hard to not have to drink of in the Garden of Gethsemane. This is what he feared that we read about in Hebrews. Being separated from the Father, he’d never been separated from the Father in his entire heaven and earthly life.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 30, 2019 21:40:36 GMT -5
Would you be comfortable sitting in heaven viewing those who are in obvious pain and torment? no one goes to hell by accident, they made their choice....my grandpa had an NDE and said he saw the chasm and so many people on the wrong side but there was nothing he/they could do about it...in the new heaven and earth to come i doubt we will be seeing them although they might be able to see us.... I saw that black chasm once, I didn’t know it at the time, but I had no heartbeat! I was on telemetry and the nurses ran in and grabbed the oxygen and stuck it on my nose and shook me. I was looking right at them but I couldn’t speak. One nurse hit me on the breastbone as she grabbed the oxygen and that started my heart back. But I was seeing two scenes. One was a bright fluorescent blue light ahead of me, the black chasm between me and people I knew. The other scene registering in my mind almost simultaneously was what the nurses were doing. Guess mainly cause I’d been in their shoes and done that. I guess I had a question in my face because one of them that knew me well said, “Your heart quit beating and you were nearly black in the face and nails on your hands.” I just raised my eyebrow as if to say, “ Yea, I know.” For some reason I wasn’t frightened! It’s kind of funny now! 🥴
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 30, 2019 23:40:00 GMT -5
Do they have a thermal viewing window between them? ** The Rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus afar off and he talked to Abraham. Cell phones, I'm sure.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 30, 2019 23:42:14 GMT -5
Do they have a thermal viewing window between them? there was a chasm... Wind must have been blowing away from paradise.
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Post by nathan on Aug 31, 2019 0:00:21 GMT -5
Wind must have been blowing away from paradise. BobW… You will find it out the answer yourself. No need to guess about these things.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2019 0:03:06 GMT -5
Wind must have been blowing away from paradise. BobW… You will find it out the answer yourself. No need to guess about these things.Thank you for the blessing.
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Post by nathan on Aug 31, 2019 0:05:01 GMT -5
The Old and New Testament believers are in heaven, they NOT able to see those HELL/Hades the Inner earth suffering or sorrows. So that story was not true? It is just a story to make a point. What some would call an allegory? The event Jesus told in Luke 16 happened during Abraham's era before He/Jesus had paid the ransom price when the Old Test. believers souls stayed in Hades on the Paradise side. No allegory! but Fact.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2019 0:06:38 GMT -5
Wind must have been blowing away from paradise. bible doesn't say if there is a wind or not....
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Post by nathan on Aug 31, 2019 0:06:54 GMT -5
BobW… You will find it out the answer yourself. No need to guess about these things. Thank you for the blessing. You're welcome. TEXT and tell us what you saw and how bad it's down there.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 31, 2019 0:35:56 GMT -5
** The Rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus afar off and he talked to Abraham. Cell phones, I'm sure. 🤣
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 31, 2019 0:39:11 GMT -5
Wind must have been blowing away from paradise. Fanning those flames of torment! 😁
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 31, 2019 0:41:07 GMT -5
So that story was not true? It is just a story to make a point. What some would call an allegory? The event Jesus told in Luke 16 happened during Abraham's era before He/Jesus had paid the ransom price when the Old Test. believers souls stayed in Hades on the Paradise side. No allegory! but Fact.You think.
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Post by nathan on Aug 31, 2019 1:06:33 GMT -5
The event Jesus told in Luke 16 happened during Abraham's era before He/Jesus had paid the ransom price when the Old Test. believers souls stayed in Hades on the Paradise side. No allegory! but Fact. You think. Yes, I do..... Jesus was given the Jews and believers in His days an understanding of Hades and Paradise where Abraham and believers souls go AFTER death before he paid the ransom price on Calvary's.
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Post by rational on Aug 31, 2019 1:39:16 GMT -5
So that story was not true? It is just a story to make a point. What some would call an allegory? The event Jesus told in Luke 16 happened during Abraham's era before He/Jesus had paid the ransom price when the Old Test. believers souls stayed in Hades on the Paradise side. No allegory! but Fact.So the rich man was a friend of Abraham? I didn't get that historical perspective from the text.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2019 2:28:30 GMT -5
Wind must have been blowing away from paradise. bible doesn't say if there is a wind or not.... The Bible does leave more to the imagination than anything else.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2019 2:31:03 GMT -5
Thank you for the blessing. You're welcome. TEXT and tell us what you saw and how bad it's down there.Sorry. I plan on being dead.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2019 2:33:57 GMT -5
Wind must have been blowing away from paradise. Fanning those flames of torment! 😁 Keeping the heat away from paradise.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 31, 2019 2:35:17 GMT -5
bible doesn't say if there is a wind or not.... The Bible does leave more to the imagination than anything else. The writers of the bible had quite an imagination.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 31, 2019 8:18:25 GMT -5
The Bible does leave more to the imagination than anything else. The writers of the bible had quite an imagination. They didn’t have libraries and the internet! 😁
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 31, 2019 8:20:02 GMT -5
Fanning those flames of torment! 😁 Keeping the heat away from paradise. Supposedly, but doesn’t the Bible say one can’t tell from what direction the wind cometh or “goeth”? 🥴
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Post by nathan on Aug 31, 2019 8:30:27 GMT -5
The event Jesus told in Luke 16 happened during Abraham's era before He/Jesus had paid the ransom price when the Old Test. believers souls stayed in Hades on the Paradise side. No allegory! but Fact. So the rich man was a friend of Abraham? I didn't get that historical perspective from the text. The rich man was a Jew/unbeliever, he had read about Abraham from the scriptures when he was alive but had NEVER met him until in Hades.
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