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Post by rational on Aug 30, 2019 15:42:03 GMT -5
*** Sorry, it was not a story but facts of life because this is what has been going on for 4000 yrs and Jesus/God Revealed to humans Life After death in the Old Test time. Old stories ≠ truth/facts. Could it be that Paul was just going on the hallucinations he had experienced augmented with ideas of his own? Was the entity that revealed this to Paul the same entity that told the mother to kill her children? How could you verify they were not the same?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 30, 2019 15:44:21 GMT -5
*** Sorry, it was not a story but facts of life because this is what has been going on for 4000 yrs and Jesus/God Revealed to humans Life After death in the Old Test time. Then Christ/God revealed to Paul to show The believers after death their souls go directly to be with Christ in heaven, they no longer go to hades like the Old test believers because he had paid the ransom price for their sins. We have to, as you’ve often hollered about, take the parable in the context. As the reference said,?if we just take the story by itself;?then we’re saying that anybody who is poor, suffers great bodily distress and is hungry is automatically going to heaven or be saved. You and I know that is not true. Jesus never spoke of “the kingdom of heaven is at hand nor any part of the gospel story in the whole rich man and Lazarus parable. It is only the fifth of five different parables within chapter 15 and 16. By the same assumptions, you’re telling us any rich oersons are going to end up in a tormented hell. Hell meant the grave in Jesus’ day. Hell as we’ve been taught to think about it is NOT until after Judgment Day. The thing you’re trying to make the rich man suffer doesn’t happen until Judgment Day. He has to have Jesus(resurrected Jesus) preach the gospel to him in the grave to show him proof that Messiah did come. The parable was about the covetousness of the Pharisees and their self-righteousness. The verses just before the parable about Lazurus Was about the Pharisees. The Pharisees started out the whole of the five parables because they were speaking against Jesus being socially active and eating with publicans and sinners. The Pharisees wouldn’t be caught dead eating with the publicans and sinners, they were too righteous and good for the low life’s.
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Post by rational on Aug 30, 2019 15:57:01 GMT -5
He did have a chance to hear the gospel, Jesus preached to ALL the captives in the graves. He set the saints free when his blood was shed. He preached the gospel not to give a second chance to anyone, but to tell that God’s promise to Abraham had been fulfilled. Those who believed were released, those who hadn’t believed were kept captives until Judgment Day but they know that the Messiah did come. What greater punishment can be had then to know salvation did come just as promised and you didn’t believe? ** Sorry, I disagree. Reading from Jesus teaching in Luke 16. The gulf already FIXED! The Rich man couldn't come to Abraham side/paradise and they couldn't go to where the Rich man's side of torment either. The Rich man had his chance and opportunity on earth hearing about God through Lazarus preaching/testimonies. Christ came down to Hades to take the Old Test believers to his heavenly home. Do you believe that those in the so-called paradise will be able to see and communicate with those in hell? What kind of paradise would it be to look at the suffering of others and hear their pleas for even a drop of water while you sit there and do nothing? Wouldn't that be hell? What sort of an entity would set up something like that?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 16:21:48 GMT -5
*** Sorry, it was not a story but facts of life because this is what has been going on for 4000 yrs and Jesus/God Revealed to humans Life After death in the Old Test time. Then Christ/God revealed to Paul to show The believers after death their souls go directly to be with Christ in heaven, they no longer go to hades like the Old test believers because he had paid the ransom price for their sins. We have to, as you’ve often hollered about, take the parable in the context. As the reference said,?if we just take the story by itself;?then we’re saying that anybody who is poor, suffers great bodily distress and is hungry is automatically going to heaven or be saved. You and I know that is not true. Jesus never spoke of “the kingdom of heaven is at hand nor any part of the gospel story in the whole rich man and Lazarus parable. It is only the fifth of five different parables within chapter 15 and 16. By the same assumptions, you’re telling us any rich oersons are going to end up in a tormented hell. Hell meant the grave in Jesus’ day. Hell as we’ve been taught to think about it is NOT until after Judgment Day. The thing you’re trying to make the rich man suffer doesn’t happen until Judgment Day. He has to have Jesus(resurrected Jesus) preach the gospel to him in the grave to show him proof that Messiah did come. The parable was about the covetousness of the Pharisees and their self-righteousness. The verses just before the parable about Lazurus Was about the Pharisees. The Pharisees started out the whole of the five parables because they were speaking against Jesus being socially active and eating with publicans and sinners. The Pharisees wouldn’t be caught dead eating with the publicans and sinners, they were too righteous and good for the low life’s. your taking an extreme position to make your point thats not valid....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 16:23:18 GMT -5
** Sorry, I disagree. Reading from Jesus teaching in Luke 16. The gulf already FIXED! The Rich man couldn't come to Abraham side/paradise and they couldn't go to where the Rich man's side of torment either. The Rich man had his chance and opportunity on earth hearing about God through Lazarus preaching/testimonies. Christ came down to Hades to take the Old Test believers to his heavenly home. Do you believe that those in the so-called paradise will be able to see and communicate with those in hell? What kind of paradise would it be to look at the suffering of others and hear their pleas for even a drop of water while you sit there and do nothing? Wouldn't that be hell? What sort of an entity would set up something like that? thats why paradise was hell adjacent....
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2019 16:58:53 GMT -5
** Sorry, I disagree. Reading from Jesus teaching in Luke 16. The gulf already FIXED! The Rich man couldn't come to Abraham side/paradise and they couldn't go to where the Rich man's side of torment either. The Rich man had his chance and opportunity on earth hearing about God through Lazarus preaching/testimonies. Christ came down to Hades to take the Old Test believers to his heavenly home. Do you believe that those in the so-called paradise will be able to see and communicate with those in hell? What kind of paradise would it be to look at the suffering of others and hear their pleas for even a drop of water while you sit there and do nothing? Wouldn't that be hell? What sort of an entity would set up something like that? ** Well, while the Rich man/an unbeliever had his chance of Salvation when he was alive on earth but for some reason he didn't want it. God told Adam and Eve the consequences is DEATH! Naturally and Spiritually if they partake the forbidden fruit/Satan. God encouraged them to eat/choose to eat the Tree of life/Christ and they and their children will live forever. Adam, Eve, and the Rich man/unbeliever had to live with their choices. Under the New Covenant the believers souls will be in heaven/Venus with Christ. The unbelievers will be in Hades/inner earth. Therefore, The believers in heaven will NOT see those in Hades/inner earth.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 30, 2019 17:57:21 GMT -5
Do you believe that those in the so-called paradise will be able to see and communicate with those in hell? What kind of paradise would it be to look at the suffering of others and hear their pleas for even a drop of water while you sit there and do nothing? Wouldn't that be hell? What sort of an entity would set up something like that? thats why paradise was hell adjacent.... Do they have a thermal viewing window between them?
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2019 18:46:53 GMT -5
thats why paradise was hell adjacent.... Do they have a thermal viewing window between them? ** The Rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus afar off and he talked to Abraham.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 30, 2019 18:54:58 GMT -5
We have to, as you’ve often hollered about, take the parable in the context. As the reference said,?if we just take the story by itself;?then we’re saying that anybody who is poor, suffers great bodily distress and is hungry is automatically going to heaven or be saved. You and I know that is not true. Jesus never spoke of “the kingdom of heaven is at hand nor any part of the gospel story in the whole rich man and Lazarus parable. It is only the fifth of five different parables within chapter 15 and 16. By the same assumptions, you’re telling us any rich oersons are going to end up in a tormented hell. Hell meant the grave in Jesus’ day. Hell as we’ve been taught to think about it is NOT until after Judgment Day. The thing you’re trying to make the rich man suffer doesn’t happen until Judgment Day. He has to have Jesus(resurrected Jesus) preach the gospel to him in the grave to show him proof that Messiah did come. The parable was about the covetousness of the Pharisees and their self-righteousness. The verses just before the parable about Lazurus Was about the Pharisees. The Pharisees started out the whole of the five parables because they were speaking against Jesus being socially active and eating with publicans and sinners. The Pharisees wouldn’t be caught dead eating with the publicans and sinners, they were too righteous and good for the low life’s. your taking an extreme position to make your point thats not valid.... I know where you and Nathan are coming from. The workers have used that parable as a gospel sermon beyond my number of years but it is taken out of context. I just learned that myself recently. To use that as saying the poor man was automatically saved is wrong, to use that to say a covetous rich man is bound for a lost eternity is wrong . That’s not what Jesus was speaking about at all. He was talking about the Pharisees self/righteousness and covetousness that leads them to places they don’t think they’ll go. That to be as they were and not care for the poor in real life is not living up to righteousness. Also he’s telling them that their self-righteousness is going to lead to the Gentiles to obtain salvation. This was to make them jealous as God said he would in Malachi. Self-righteousness leads people to think they’re exempt from every thing everybody else has to withstand. The Apostles asked Jesus just some verses/chapter later why he spoke in parables. He explained.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 30, 2019 18:57:16 GMT -5
Do they have a thermal viewing window between them? ** The Rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus afar off and he talked to Abraham. It’s just a story/parable, Nathan. The poor man didn’t automatically get salvation at all. To use that parable about salvation is wrong because the gospel of Christ is not involved in the story!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 30, 2019 19:01:31 GMT -5
** Sorry, I disagree. Reading from Jesus teaching in Luke 16. The gulf already FIXED! The Rich man couldn't come to Abraham side/paradise and they couldn't go to where the Rich man's side of torment either. The Rich man had his chance and opportunity on earth hearing about God through Lazarus preaching/testimonies. Christ came down to Hades to take the Old Test believers to his heavenly home. Do you believe that those in the so-called paradise will be able to see and communicate with those in hell? What kind of paradise would it be to look at the suffering of others and hear their pleas for even a drop of water while you sit there and do nothing? Wouldn't that be hell? What sort of an entity would set up something like that? He wouldn’t do such a thing. I can’t get them to understand that the gospel sermons built off of this parable are wrong. Wrong interpretation. That it isn’t about poor beggars automatically receiving salvation nor about rich covetous men automatically going to hell and torment. That kind of torment and hell doesn’t happen until after Judgment Day.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 19:07:27 GMT -5
your taking an extreme position to make your point thats not valid.... I know where you and Nathan are coming from. The workers have used that parable as a gospel sermon beyond my number of years but it is taken out of context. I just learned that myself recently. To use that as saying the poor man was automatically saved is wrong, to use that to say a covetous rich man is bound for a lost eternity is wrong . That’s not what Jesus was speaking about at all. He was talking about the Pharisees self/righteousness and covetousness that leads them to places they don’t think they’ll go. That to be as they were and not care for the poor in real life is not living up to righteousness. Also he’s telling them that their self-righteousness is going to lead to the Gentiles to obtain salvation. This was to make them jealous as God said he would in Malachi. Self-righteousness leads people to think they’re exempt from every thing everybody else has to withstand. The Apostles asked Jesus just some verses/chapter later why he spoke in parables. He explained. no one on here that i recall has said there was automatic salvation or damnation in that story and i've never heard the workers say that either...i think your blowing smoke....
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2019 19:08:30 GMT -5
** The Rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus afar off and he talked to Abraham. It’s just a story/parable, Nathan. The poor man didn’t automatically get salvation at all. To use that parable about salvation is wrong because the gospel of Christ is not involved in the story! That Poor man was a believer, there was a disciple of Jesus name Lazarus that died and he raised him up from the dead. The Rich man was an unbeliever. I don't believe it was a parable or a story but an actual event has happened for 4000 yrs. Christ is NOT involved because he had NOT died for them, yet in this event. A few months, later he did and he went down to HADES to rescue Abraham, Lazarus and all believers from there to be with Him in heaven.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2019 19:09:34 GMT -5
thats why paradise was hell adjacent.... Do they have a thermal viewing window between them? there was a chasm...
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2019 19:15:40 GMT -5
Do you believe that those in the so-called paradise will be able to see and communicate with those in hell? What kind of paradise would it be to look at the suffering of others and hear their pleas for even a drop of water while you sit there and do nothing? Wouldn't that be hell? What sort of an entity would set up something like that? He wouldn’t do such a thing. I can’t get them to understand that the gospel sermons built off of this parable are wrong. Wrong interpretation. That it isn’t about poor beggars automatically receiving salvation nor about rich covetous men automatically going to hell and torment. That kind of torment and hell doesn’t happen until after Judgment Day. Luke 16 a temporary HELL Hole, a foretaste of suffering, sorrow, and regrets that will CONTINUE on AFTER the judgment day, the worse is YET to COME for all unbelievers to be cast in the lake of fire/the Second death for eternity.
Rev. 20:11-15 11 And I/John saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Post by rational on Aug 30, 2019 19:17:02 GMT -5
Do they have a thermal viewing window between them? there was a chasm... Depending on the distance paradise could be toasty as well.
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Post by rational on Aug 30, 2019 19:18:26 GMT -5
He wouldn’t do such a thing. I can’t get them to understand that the gospel sermons built off of this parable are wrong. Wrong interpretation. That it isn’t about poor beggars automatically receiving salvation nor about rich covetous men automatically going to hell and torment. That kind of torment and hell doesn’t happen until after Judgment Day. Luke 16 a temporary HELL Hole, a foretaste of suffering, sorrow, and regrets that will CONTINUE on AFTER the judgment day, the worse is YET to COME for all unbelievers to be cast in the lake of fire/the Second death for eternity.
Rev. 20:11-15 11 And I/John saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Is the lake of fire real? Where is it? What is burning in the lake?
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2019 19:20:08 GMT -5
Depending on the distance paradise could be toasty as well. Well, it was HELL/HOT from within of the person! Abraham and Lazarus were NOT HOT at all, the didn't complain about the heat, they were staying in an Air Condition place.
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Post by snow on Aug 30, 2019 19:20:31 GMT -5
Do they have a thermal viewing window between them? there was a chasm... Would you be comfortable sitting in heaven viewing those who are in obvious pain and torment?
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2019 19:23:05 GMT -5
Luke 16 a temporary HELL Hole, a foretaste of suffering, sorrow, and regrets that will CONTINUE on AFTER the judgment day, the worse is YET to COME for all unbelievers to be cast in the lake of fire/the Second death for eternity.
Rev. 20:11-15 11 And I/John saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Is the lake of fire real? Where is it? What is burning in the lake? It's NOT an actual lake of fire... because the unbelievers have no bodies, but souls and the conscious minds. The Rich man remembered his past, Lazarus, knowing who Abraham was, and his brothers and family were still alive on the earth.
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2019 19:24:37 GMT -5
Would you be comfortable sitting in heaven viewing those who are in obvious pain and torment? The Old and New Testament believers are in heaven, they NOT able to see those HELL/Hades the Inner earth suffering or sorrows.
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2019 19:25:02 GMT -5
Is the lake of fire real? Where is it? What is burning in the lake? It's NOT an actual lake of fire... because the unbelievers have no bodies, but souls and the conscious minds. The Rich man remembered his past, Lazarus, knowing who Abraham was, and his brothers and family were still alive on the earth.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 30, 2019 19:38:53 GMT -5
It’s just a story/parable, Nathan. The poor man didn’t automatically get salvation at all. To use that parable about salvation is wrong because the gospel of Christ is not involved in the story! That Poor man was a believer, there was a disciple of Jesus name Lazarus that died and he raised him up from the dead. The Rich man was an unbeliever. I don't believe it was a parable or a story but an actual event has happened for 4000 yrs. Christ is NOT involved because he had NOT died for them, yet in this event. A few months, later he did and he went down to HADES to rescue Abraham, Lazarus and all believers from there to be with Him in heaven. It doesn’t say that , Nathan. That’s your assumption.
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2019 19:45:23 GMT -5
That Poor man was a believer, there was a disciple of Jesus name Lazarus that died and he raised him up from the dead. The Rich man was an unbeliever. I don't believe it was a parable or a story but an actual event has happened for 4000 yrs. Christ is NOT involved because he had NOT died for them, yet in this event. A few months, later Jesus died and his Spirit went down to HADES to rescue Abraham, Lazarus and all believers from there to be with Him in heaven. It doesn’t say that , Nathan. That’s your assumption. That is what you call revelation from above.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 30, 2019 19:46:11 GMT -5
Do you believe that those in the so-called paradise will be able to see and communicate with those in hell? What kind of paradise would it be to look at the suffering of others and hear their pleas for even a drop of water while you sit there and do nothing? Wouldn't that be hell? What sort of an entity would set up something like that? ** Well, while the Rich man/an unbeliever had his chance of Salvation when he was alive on earth but for some reason he didn't want it. God told Adam and Eve the consequences is DEATH! Naturally and Spiritually if they partake the forbidden fruit/Satan. God encouraged them to eat/choose to eat the Tree of life/Christ and they and their children will live forever. Adam, Eve, and the Rich man/unbeliever had to live with their choices. Under the New Covenant the believers souls will be in heaven/Venus with Christ. The unbelievers will be in Hades/inner earth. Therefore, The believers in heaven will NOT see those in Hades/inner earth. Until Jesus died and his blood was spilled thete was no salvation for anyone, Nathan. The OT faithful were believing in the promise God gave to Abraham that the Messiah would come, but they were NOT SAVED until Jesus was crucified, his blood shed, and his resurrection in which he visited those faithful ones to God’s promise to Abraham, and”preached the gospel to them.” Then they were saved because they believed Messiah would come and now in the prison of death’s grip, they witnessed Jesus as their Saviour. But Jesus’ blood had to be shed before they’d know salvation. So the beggar died before Hesus was crucified and thus would have NOT be sent to heaven for he’d been one of death’s captives. His release to heaven could not be accomplished until the resurrection of Jesus!
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Post by nathan on Aug 30, 2019 19:49:59 GMT -5
** Well, while the Rich man/an unbeliever had his chance of Salvation when he was alive on earth but for some reason he didn't want it. God told Adam and Eve the consequences is DEATH! Naturally and Spiritually if they partake the forbidden fruit/Satan. God encouraged them to eat/choose to eat the Tree of life/Christ and they and their children will live forever. Adam, Eve, and the Rich man/unbeliever had to live with their choices. Under the New Covenant the believers souls will be in heaven/Venus with Christ. The unbelievers will be in Hades/inner earth. Therefore, The believers in heaven will NOT see those in Hades/inner earth. Until Jesus died and his blood was spilled thete was no salvation for anyone, Nathan. The OT faithful were believing in the promise God gave to Abraham that the Messiah would come, but they were NOT SAVED until Jesus was crucified, his blood shed, and his resurrection in which he visited those faithful ones to God’s promise to Abraham, and”preached the gospel to them.” Then they were saved because they believed Messiah would come and now in the prison of death’s grip, they witnessed Jesus as their Saviour. But Jesus’ blood had to be shed before they’d know salvation. So the beggar died before Hesus was crucified and thus would have NOT be sent to heaven for he’d been one of death’s captives. His release to heaven could not be accomplished until the resurrection of Jesus! The Old Testament believers had the rain checks or Promised of Christ that some day He would come to Hades and FREE them from Hades! Jesus paid the ransom price so his Spirit descended into Hades to set them FREE.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 30, 2019 19:50:28 GMT -5
It doesn’t say that , Nathan. That’s your assumption. That is what you call revelation from above. No! It’s called two by two indoctrination! They’ve used that story/parable for a frightening gospel story for ages. It’s wrong. Gospel means “good news”. There’s nothing “good news” in that parable used as a gospel story. Making it a gospel story is a dire thing. It could cause some people to think it’s better to be living on the streets, starving to death, in order to get to heaven. And THAT is just not the way to salvation. Never was and never will be. Salvation has been purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ. There’s not one iota of things to do to make salvation ours except to believe on him whom God hath sent!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 30, 2019 19:52:34 GMT -5
Until Jesus died and his blood was spilled thete was no salvation for anyone, Nathan. The OT faithful were believing in the promise God gave to Abraham that the Messiah would come, but they were NOT SAVED until Jesus was crucified, his blood shed, and his resurrection in which he visited those faithful ones to God’s promise to Abraham, and”preached the gospel to them.” Then they were saved because they believed Messiah would come and now in the prison of death’s grip, they witnessed Jesus as their Saviour. But Jesus’ blood had to be shed before they’d know salvation. So the beggar died before Hesus was crucified and thus would have NOT be sent to heaven for he’d been one of death’s captives. His release to heaven could not be accomplished until the resurrection of Jesus! The Old Testament believers had the rain checks or Promised of Christ that some day He would come to Hades and FREE them from Hades! Jesus paid the ransom price so his Spirit descended into Hades to set them FREE.
He descended into the graves or belly of the earth, resurrected body AND Spirit! He had to show death’s captives that the Messiah had come, was crucified and resurrected. That his shed blood had washed them from their sins.
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