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Post by snow on Apr 22, 2019 19:26:32 GMT -5
Snow, I think we would all like to know the answer to why the perpetrator escaped jail, and why now he has protection on his identity for 20 years. It seems so wrong and a real kick in the guts for the victims. They are the ones that we feel so sorry for, and the ones we should support and help. It is very hard for us lay people to understand decisions of the Court. So I guess under our system we have to accept the decision of those learned people even at times we disagree. There is an opinion around because of the campaign against the original sentencing Judge, by the media, etc, that the Appeal Judges took that into consideration and imposed the 20 year suppression order. We have to be ever so careful when we make comment about Judiciary, I found that out some years ago when brought before the Court. A hard lesson to learn. I was impressed recently with the attitude of the Prime Minister of NZ, Jacinta Arden regarding the perpetrator of that tragic crime in NZ. She said she would never ever speak his name. And this is a good tactic, once a person is identified as a monster, there name should be thrown out of our mind, put out with the rubbish, and receive no consideration whatsoever. Our attention and concern should only be for the victims. Now I know that there are so many sincere people both within and outside the "Truth Church" that will concentrate on this. They will ensure that there is an improved system of pastoral care within the Church. It is not good enough that these matters are discussed at secret Worker's only meetings. That clandestine treatment of it must cease. They owe it at least to laity to keep them informed as to what policy is being implemented to address the problem, in areas of prevention and support of victims. And also because it is a matter of extreme importance to the whole community, they must be transparent and make their intentions known to everybody. And unless they do this I know the sincere group of people I have mentioned will continue to campaign to make it happen. If it requires media exposure then that will happen. Let us hope that commonsense prevails, and that we work together for a good outcome without too much trauma. And ex's are not enemy of the "Truth" we don't accept the teachings, but we still love the people. That is why we bother. That is what is so confusing for me. Why the special treatment for him and his family. Why is he protected when I'm sure the families and the other men shown in the pictures were not. Something doesn't add up here. There must be something that hasn't been revealed that the judge knew that caused him to do this. I would imagine most of the professing people know who he is anyway, right? I am with you regarding the survivors. It broke my heart to hear them define themselves as 'not worth it'. But after all that, how else can they feel. The whole thing is just sad. I can only hope that something has been learned from it in the hierarchy of the Workers. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2019 19:57:20 GMT -5
Snow maybe there will be answers in the future, there is more to come in regard to this person. So keep tuned, you will be kept informed. We commend those people who have given support to the victims, and who will continue their campagn to see justice prevail.
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Post by openingact34 on Apr 22, 2019 21:08:53 GMT -5
A man on Professing Open Air described this video as Satan persecuting the church. That was bound to happen, that is one of the main accusations that gets trotted out. Just part of a distorted thinking. We have heard that many times, that is why so many miss the message. When the victims spoke critically about “The Truth”, I repeatedly caught myself focusing on their makeup, short hair, and jewelry instead of their words, as if that mattered or made their stories less valid. I was indoctrinated from birth into a 4th generation professing family, but I was able to break free after taking college level science classes as a teen and realizing that the Bible is full of lies. Yet it seems that even decades after the key childhood indoctrination, there are still 2x2 mind control algorithms running without permission on the biological computer between my ears. I've had similar flashes of 2x2 programming pop up at random times before. I'm thankful that I can at least recognize and rationalize what is happening. I can only imagine how twisted the thought process is within a "hearty" professing person's mind. |
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Post by snow on Apr 22, 2019 21:10:56 GMT -5
That was bound to happen, that is one of the main accusations that gets trotted out. Just part of a distorted thinking. We have heard that many times, that is why so many miss the message. When the victims spoke critically about “The Truth”, I repeatedly caught myself focusing on their makeup, short hair, and jewelry instead of their words, as if that mattered or made their stories less valid. I was indoctrinated from birth into a 4th generation professing family, but I was able to break free after taking college level science classes as a teen and realizing that the Bible is full of lies. Yet it seems that even decades after the key childhood indoctrination, there are still 2x2 mind control algorithms running without permission on the biological computer between my ears. I've had similar flashes of 2x2 programming pop up at random times before. I'm thankful that I can at least recognize and rationalize what is happening. I can only imagine how twisted the thought process is within a "hearty" professing person's mind. Know exactly what you mean. What scares me is what ones do I still carry around that I'm still unconscious of!! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2019 0:41:19 GMT -5
That was bound to happen, that is one of the main accusations that gets trotted out. Just part of a distorted thinking. We have heard that many times, that is why so many miss the message. When the victims spoke critically about “The Truth”, I repeatedly caught myself focusing on their makeup, short hair, and jewelry instead of their words, as if that mattered or made their stories less valid. I was indoctrinated from birth into a 4th generation professing family, but I was able to break free after taking college level science classes as a teen and realizing that the Bible is full of lies. Yet it seems that even decades after the key childhood indoctrination, there are still 2x2 mind control algorithms running without permission on the biological computer between my ears. I've had similar flashes of 2x2 programming pop up at random times before. I'm thankful that I can at least recognize and rationalize what is happening. I can only imagine how twisted the thought process is within a "hearty" professing person's mind. me too. I was surprised by it. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2019 0:58:28 GMT -5
Jimmy, always like your posts, they are always positive and helpful. TMB needs that input it can only improve the overall end result. Keep up the good work.
Noted your comment, "As far as I know, the Victorian perpetrators have not been allowed in fellowship or at convention etc." Perhaps you could pass this information on to Mr. Kitto so as the same policy is implemented in NSW.
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Post by withlove on Apr 23, 2019 1:20:47 GMT -5
Ugh, same here with the programming! I had a "they are wearing short shorts and one has a swimsuit bottom on" so they weren't in "real" professing families. !!!! Where can we get our brains fixed??
What precious, hurting children and women. Will Allen reach out after this?
6 abusers in NSW does seem like a significant number, right?
I felt like Ross did well. He didn't waste words. He came across believable and fair. If he had not smiled, people would say he was bitter.
Nathan mentioned he heard from victims of CSA cases (plural). He wasn't in the work very long. Sad to ponder how many he heard of and how many he didn't.
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Post by Grant on Apr 23, 2019 1:34:42 GMT -5
I don't see Ross enjoying his moment of fame. I see him as being concerned about sexual abuse in the church. No matter how he appeared, there would be those who would find fault.
Great the women looked nice and not with the professing look. Shows freedom from the group we grew up in.
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 23, 2019 1:46:01 GMT -5
I don't see Ross enjoying his moment of fame. I see him as being concerned about sexual abuse in the church. No matter how he appeared, there would be those who would find fault. Great the women looked nice and not with the professing look. Shows freedom from the group we grew up in. Agree with you Grant, it would not matter what Ross done, there will be those that find fault. I am glad that there are people like Ross who are willing to help others. |
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Post by withlove on Apr 23, 2019 2:10:53 GMT -5
I don't see Ross enjoying his moment of fame. I see him as being concerned about sexual abuse in the church. No matter how he appeared, there would be those who would find fault. Great the women looked nice and not with the professing look. Shows freedom from the group we grew up in. Agree with you Grant , it would not matter what Ross done, there will be those that find fault. I am glad that there are people like Ross who are willing to help others. Yes--THANK YOU to Ross, to the women, the show, and all those helping behind the scenes and in other ways. Thank you. |
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Post by skipro101 on Apr 23, 2019 4:27:59 GMT -5
I was a little confused with one component of the episode,
Allan Kitto has only been head worker for a short time that I am aware of. Was he told recently (as head worker), or was he told earlier (not as head worker?)
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Post by mountain on Apr 25, 2019 15:36:22 GMT -5
Get off of TMB . How would you prove his accusation that 'satan is persecuting the church' to be false? The man is inadvertantly right. The video could be presented as showing evidence of satan persecuting the church. Is what happened to the victims whilst they were in the group, not an indication that satan was persecuting then through the perpetrators? There are warnings in scripture about satan seeking to enter the church. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 25, 2019 17:07:39 GMT -5
I don't see Ross enjoying his moment of fame. I see him as being concerned about sexual abuse in the church. No matter how he appeared, there would be those who would find fault. Great the women looked nice and not with the professing look. Shows freedom from the group we grew up in. I feel that practicing independent looks helps one to disassociate from the harsh indoctrination of doing as taught or go to hell. After practicing this a while one soon learns that they are no more bound for hell then anyone else, regardless of appearances. I’m not advocating being suggestive in appearance but being able to blend into where one can “slip through the public’s masses without being caught or noticed.” I don’t think Hod intends for us to draw attention to ourselves through being opposing what is normal everyday modesty. In Jesus’ day, men and women and children all wore some type of robing! Jesus was able to slip through the crowds masses who were looking to abuse or punish him. He had to have been very average looking. Also the priest that finally arrested him had to have Judas Iscariot show which man was Jesus by kissing him. So he must have looked much like the Apostles who were with him. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 25, 2019 17:19:38 GMT -5
For the sake of pushing home the fact that the tape isn’t “persecution” of the church, it would have served much better if the victims had still been members of the church.
I understand why most wouldn’t dare go public about their abuses while still members in the church, for they fear and rightfully so, being excommunicated, damned to hell, shunned or made pariahs in the church.
That’s been the worst part of anyone pushing against the powers that be in the church for many, many years.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2019 17:44:08 GMT -5
Sharingtheriches, you have identified the main problem that is creating great concerns within the "Truth" Church. Many ex's have family and friends within the Church, that they love dearly, and obviously there is communication between them, and the message the ex's get is that there is a great disconnect between the Workers and Laity. As you say members are fearful to speak out because of consequences that will be incurred. That is why some sincere caring ex's are trying to have an unacceptable situation changed. The comments I am getting from our 2x2 friends is that they are being treated like mushrooms, left out of the equation. I also know of concerned ex's who have tried to communicate with Overseers, but get the same treatment. So we must all work together to have it fixed, and if it needs desperate measures, then unfortunately that has to occur.
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Post by joanna on Apr 25, 2019 19:24:31 GMT -5
The 60 mins program referred to CSA within NSW Australia. This excerpt is from the paper titled NSW Government response into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual AbuseTough new child sex abuse laws in NSW. The NSW Government was the first jurisdiction to respond to the Royal Commission’s Criminal justice report.
The NSW Government is introducing:
• a maximum life sentence for the offence of
persistent child sexual abuse, which has also
been strengthened
• new offences for failure to report and failure to
protect against child abuse
• a new offence of grooming an adult to access a
child, and a strengthened grooming offence to
include providing a child with gifts or money
• a new rule that courts sentencing a person for child
sexual abuse (including in historical matters) must
take into account modern sentencing standards and
our current understanding of the lifelong impacts
and trauma of abuse
• procedural changes to remove an old limitation
period that was preventing some survivors from
accessing justice today.
We are also making changes to our criminal justice system so the law works better to deter and punish perpetrators of child sexual abuse and helps survivors find justice.Here is the link to the Attorney General's Annual Progress Report into Institutional Implementation of the Royal Commission's recommendationsDoes anyone know whether the 2x2 workers have applied any of the recommendations? This archbishop failed to report child sex abuse and “berated” the mother of a child abuse victim after she discovered his diocese kept no records of a complaint that her son had been assaulted by a trainee priest, This January 2019 article informs that he is under investigation for his failures to report CSA whilst the bishop of Newcastle, NSW. The 2x2 workers and congregation who are aware of CSA abuse and are not reporting this should also be subjected to the full force of the law. Maybe an online petition would be effective? |
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Post by James on Apr 25, 2019 19:43:40 GMT -5
I was a little confused with one component of the episode, Allan Kitto has only been head worker for a short time that I am aware of. Was he told recently (as head worker), or was he told earlier (not as head worker?) I understand Allan Kitto was a senior worker in NSW when Lyndy England met with him. He was then promoted to Head Worker in South Australia - not sure of the year - but maybe around 2008 or so. He was Head Worker in South Australia when the Steve Schulz matter occurred (has been discussed on TMB). He then returned to New South Wales in late 2015 to take over as Head Worker in that state. I understand that Louise Gas as mentioned on the program, plus others spoke to him in 2018 concerning the unnamed offender and the protection of children. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2019 20:31:36 GMT -5
Was thinking how years ago, there was the big coverup re William Irvine starting the church BUT given time truth prevailed. Then there is the cover-up/ not addressing the problem of CSA but given time, truth prevails.
Hopefully with those at the top ....the penny may drop.
GIven time, truth will prevail.
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Post by gells on Apr 25, 2019 23:18:21 GMT -5
Get off of TMB . How would you prove his accusation that 'satan is persecuting the church' to be false? Well being that Satan is described as the “father of Lies”, then it really can’t be justified to say this if this episode is indeed the truth... can they disprove this from happening? Clearly it’s not just a bunch of lies. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 25, 2019 23:25:25 GMT -5
I knew a worker who would often mention that it is important to have strong convictions about the truth.
There are plenty of workers and friends with convictions now. He should be happy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2019 23:30:18 GMT -5
A man on Professing Open Air described this video as Satan persecuting the church. he probably believes the stories are not true... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 0:10:49 GMT -5
If there is anything you don't understand, if you like it then it's the work of God. If you don't then it's the work of Satan. So if this is the work of Satan, as perceived by some, then perhaps they can expect a devil of a time.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 0:38:10 GMT -5
If there is anything you don't understand, if you like it then it's the work of God. If you don't then it's the work of Satan. So if this is the work of Satan, as perceived by some, then perhaps they can expect a devil of a time. Some do think that way redback, even some who do attend churches. However, God communicated what His work Is very clearly telling the end from the beginning. And if you think that the gathering of all nations intending to wipe Israel off the globe just before the end of God's work takes place is a work of the devil because few human beings whould like that, the Bible has a severe warning about attributing the works of God to the devil. Anything human beings don't understand, they don't understand - simple as that, whether one likes not understanding or not. |
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Post by daft on Apr 26, 2019 9:21:38 GMT -5
I'm not somewhere that I can watch this video at the moment.
But I'm hoping that 60 Minutes at least got a comment from the workers ... or an interview at best ... in the interest of hearing from both sides.
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Post by aus1 on Apr 26, 2019 10:43:35 GMT -5
Yeah, like that's going to happen!
You obviously don't know workers very well
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Post by snow on Apr 26, 2019 12:55:01 GMT -5
If there is anything you don't understand, if you like it then it's the work of God. If you don't then it's the work of Satan. So if this is the work of Satan, as perceived by some, then perhaps they can expect a devil of a time. Yup that's pretty much how it works. Thank you Jesus when it's good and The devil made me do it if it's bad. |
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Post by matisse on Apr 26, 2019 14:20:08 GMT -5
I'm not somewhere that I can watch this video at the moment. But I'm hoping that 60 Minutes at least got a comment from the workers ... or an interview at best ... in the interest of hearing from both sides. Kitto provided 60 Minutes with a statement which was read near the end of the program. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 20:07:58 GMT -5
ACCOUNTABILITY | Convicted soul: A priest-perpetrator of child sexual abuse, gives advice what Church should do to combat CSA.
Based on your experience, what are some of the lessons for the church today?
Church leaders, particularly the bishops, should consider the same four steps of recovery that I have experienced.
First, they must submit to external accountability. In the case of an accusation of abuse, the requirement to immediately contact the police — and submit everything to them — is important. Civil lawsuits also hold them accountable and judge them in a very public way. It is painful, but it is critical for them to behave in a new way. It's very humiliating, but the church must be humiliated if it is to become authentically humble.
Second, just like the offender, church leaders must say, "We are responsible." They must accept it as absolutely true and embrace whatever consequences flow from it. Church needs to be church and not a corporation. To the degree that we protect our assets in the legal system, and in any way do additional harm to the victim, we've stopped being church. The call of church is to pastor, be a good shepherd, to care for the sheep. The church has to be church.
The third realm is internal change. As I did in therapy, the church needs to examine what's underneath our behavior. I had to learn about patriarchal models of power, clericalism, elitism and entitlement. In the leadership and institutional life of the church, what's really driving us? Can we honestly say that every decision we make is to care for souls, or are we building financial assets and legal bulwarks?
If, over time, the church is in that process of change, then it can live as a transformed institution in the world. It can become a model for dealing with sexual abuse — and perhaps a catalyst for our society to look at sexual abuse. I mean: For the love of God, what are the stats? It's happening in families, extended families, schools, associations, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, YMCAs, camps, among police. All of it. It's endemic in our society.
Nobody chooses the humiliation forced by external accountability. But once you accept it as a gift and make the change you really need to make, you become a witness to the world. Isn't that what the church is called to be? As an institution, we can bring healing and salvation to the world. For alcoholics, the most important work is to another alcoholic, right? The church as an abusive institution could be a transformative agent against abusive behavior in society.
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