|
|
Post by snow on Apr 29, 2019 21:35:57 GMT -5
So you're saying that if they had been interviewing someone about a Baptist church they would have used the word cult? No church likes to be called a cult STR. That's a known. It's also a given that when someone uses the word 'cult' there are negative connotations. I am saying it was unfortunate that this interviewer went down that road because it took away from the subject which was about CSA and the women that were abused. All churches have CSA in their midst I am sure. I'm pretty sure she would not have used the word cult if she was interviewing CSA survivors from the Catholic church. So why would she feel it was okay to inquire about it with the 2x2 church? What was the motive for that. CSA happens in organizations that are not considered cults. So why do you think she was 'just trying to make the truth of the matter known'. What is the truth of the matter? And even if the 2x2's are a cult what does that have to do with CSA in their group? My point is that we want to see changes in the way the Truth does things. We don't want to have them dismiss it because of inaccuracies or by them getting offended because they feel they have been labelled as a cult. We all know very well that people watching are going to take that very loaded word and remember it. It takes away from the rest of the program imo and that is unfortunate. I could be totally wrong, but I do feel it was an unfortunate use of a highly controversial word/label and it wasn't necessary. The strict control of church by church leaders. Calling other nonmembers false believers if go to some other church. Secrecy of church overall. It doesn’t take much introduction to secrecy churches for people to call them “cult like”. She didn’t say they were cult but cult like. That’s what I keep trying to point out. And I never said she called them a cult. She did call them cult like, numerous times. What I'm saying is that it's unfortunate that word was used. I have no problem with her saying they are secretive and all the other things, but I am concerned that it won't be taken seriously and I really want it to be taken seriously. That's what I've been trying to point out. Do disagree? Do you think it was wise to label them? Cult is a negative word. It means different things to different people. Outlining what they are like is not constructive when it's labeled as cult like. That can mean so many things and it may or may not be accurate. Actually explaining that they are secretive and isolate themselves, is definitive and gives the listener a clear picture. Nothing wrong with that and it clearer. Sure we do know that some of what they do are 'cult like', but that needs defining, so it's a rather useless term and it may just do more damage than good in the long run. If you're trying to get someone to listen and change their ways, giving them a negative label probably isn't the best way of doing that. Hopefully the goal wasn't just too expose them, and instead an attempt to get them to change how they handle CSA. I still say it was a long needed documentary and I'm glad to see it. |
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 29, 2019 21:40:46 GMT -5
The strict control of church by church leaders. Calling other nonmembers false believers if go to some other church. Secrecy of church overall. It doesn’t take much introduction to secrecy churches for people to call them “cult like”. She didn’t say they were cult but cult like. That’s what I keep trying to point out. And I never said she called them a cult. She did call them cult like, numerous times. What I'm saying is that it's unfortunate that word was used. I have no problem with her saying they are secretive and all the other things, but I am concerned that it won't be taken seriously and I really want it to be taken seriously. That's what I've been trying to point out. Do disagree? Do you think it was wise to label them? Cult is a negative word. It means different things to different people. Outlining what they are like is not constructive when it's labeled as cult like. That can mean so many things and it may or may not be accurate. Actually explaining that they are secretive and isolate themselves, is definitive and gives the listener a clear picture. Nothing wrong with that and it clearer. Sure we do know that some of what they do are 'cult like', but that needs defining, so it's a rather useless term and it may just do more damage than good in the long run. If you're trying to get someone to listen and change their ways, giving them a negative label probably isn't the best way of doing that. Hopefully the goal wasn't just too expose them, and instead an attempt to get them to change how they handle CSA I think you fears it won’t be taken seriously are for the wrong reasons. Before the film ever was ready to be shown, the die-hard truthers had already labeled it as “persecution of God’s only true servants.” So it’s going to be a hit-miss situation for the film to do any good for the powers that be and the syncophant friends had already made up their minds it wasn’t about “changing corrupt practices” but was about worker persecution. |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 29, 2019 21:45:54 GMT -5
And I never said she called them a cult. She did call them cult like, numerous times. What I'm saying is that it's unfortunate that word was used. I have no problem with her saying they are secretive and all the other things, but I am concerned that it won't be taken seriously and I really want it to be taken seriously. That's what I've been trying to point out. Do disagree? Do you think it was wise to label them? Cult is a negative word. It means different things to different people. Outlining what they are like is not constructive when it's labeled as cult like. That can mean so many things and it may or may not be accurate. Actually explaining that they are secretive and isolate themselves, is definitive and gives the listener a clear picture. Nothing wrong with that and it clearer. Sure we do know that some of what they do are 'cult like', but that needs defining, so it's a rather useless term and it may just do more damage than good in the long run. If you're trying to get someone to listen and change their ways, giving them a negative label probably isn't the best way of doing that. Hopefully the goal wasn't just too expose them, and instead an attempt to get them to change how they handle CSA I think you fears it won’t be taken seriously are for the wrong reasons. Before the film ever was ready to be shown, the die-hard truthers had already labeled it as “persecution of God’s only true servants.” So it’s going to be a hit-miss situation for the film to do any good for the powers that be and the syncophant friends had already made up their minds it wasn’t about “changing corrupt practices” but was about worker persecution. Sadly, you're probably right about the die hards. But there are those that really aren't aware of what's happening in their church. The one's that already know are usually trying to do something about it from the inside. I know of several that are trying to make changes. We can't reach those who already have their minds made up. But not all the friends are in that category and I hope that this documentary opens their eyes and starts them asking questions. If nothing else, at least make them aware so they can protect their children better. I am so glad that they came forward. I applaud Ross for being there for them. I just wish, so very much, that it will make a difference, change things. |
|
|
|
Post by Ross.Bowden on Apr 29, 2019 21:46:08 GMT -5
You’re correct - I did not call the fellowship a cult. I used the terms “church” and “sect” and deliberately steered away from using the word “cult”. The program did not specifically call the group a cult but used the terms “a cult-like church” or “cult-like behaviour” which was used largely as I understand it to describe the response from senior workers to victims of child sexual abuse and perpetrators. For example, in the first case shown Lyndy England was treated woefully, there was a witness to the conversation and the senior worker involved asked his co-Worker at the time to support the perpetrator in court when he first appeared. This was cross-referenced in detail but not all details were aired as there is a limited program time. I did not see the final program before it went to air but I was very comfortable with how it was produced and the significant effort they went to prior to its release in checking and cross-referencing material. Ross you did fine. I am so glad this was done. I just feel that when that word was brought into it by the interviewer, it was really unfortunate because as we all know here, some will throw out everything else said and just focus on what they feel is an inaccurate label of them. I hope that doesn't happen but we are already hearing some ask if there is any reason to take what they are saying seriously because of the inaccuracies. Thanks Snow. In the filming I was asked whether the church was a cult but I answered "No" as I've always held the view that the word "cult" is quite polarising and subjective. There were no questions or written brief given to me in advance. As I said elsewhere in these situations you get asked a lot of questions and do hours of filming and talented people then do their job in producing a program - as you know it's the same for any TV program, film or multi-media production. |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 29, 2019 21:54:56 GMT -5
Ross you did fine. I am so glad this was done. I just feel that when that word was brought into it by the interviewer, it was really unfortunate because as we all know here, some will throw out everything else said and just focus on what they feel is an inaccurate label of them. I hope that doesn't happen but we are already hearing some ask if there is any reason to take what they are saying seriously because of the inaccuracies. Thanks Snow. In the filming I was asked whether the church was a cult but I answered "No" as I've always held the view that the word "cult" is quite polarising and subjective. There were no questions or written brief given to me in advance. As I said elsewhere in these situations you get asked a lot of questions and do hours of filming and talented people then do their job in producing a program - as you know it's the same for any TV program, film or multi-media production. Yes, I agree. I feel that those kinds of labels are useless and what is more useful is defining what happens, like you did. |
|
|
|
Post by joanna on Apr 29, 2019 21:55:34 GMT -5
Ross.Bowden . That webpage does include a reference to the 2x2 cult. Your dogs are beautiful  I am sorry to hear that you lost one of them. Our rescued animals are part of the family and when one dies, they leave behind a permanent and sad space.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ross.Bowden on Apr 29, 2019 22:08:37 GMT -5
Ross.Bowden . That webpage does include a reference to the 2x2 cult. Your dogs are beautiful I am sorry to hear that you lost one of them. Our rescued animals are part of the family and when one dies, they leave behind a permanent and sad space. Thanks - the dogs have been such an important part of our family. I must have missed the reference on the homepage unless it is just the advertising on the RHS showing Elizabeth's book. As I mentioned in another post, I think TTT is the best site available in terms of historical information. I wasn't asked to scroll down the page but it just seemed a logical thing to do. |
|
|
|
Post by Pragmatic on Apr 29, 2019 22:13:34 GMT -5
Ross.Bowden . That webpage does include a reference to the 2x2 cult. Your dogs are beautiful I am sorry to hear that you lost one of them. Our rescued animals are part of the family and when one dies, they leave behind a permanent and sad space. You mean the ad for Elizabeth Coleman's book, called Cult to Christ? You'd have to pause the clip before the focal change and examine it with a magnifying glass! Hardly a game changer.
Having worked with the media for a number of events, and being interviewed, I know how much gets left on the cutting floor, and you have no control over what's used.
To be blunt and cynical, in my opinion, the hardliners who present a seige mentality will probably die off in the next decade, and the few that remain will become marginalised, and people become mainstream in their thinking. Otherwise the church would survive in name only with far fewer members. Of course, they would form a circular firing squad and quote "few there be that are saved"!
|
|
|
|
Post by joanna on Apr 29, 2019 22:50:47 GMT -5
It is playing with semantics and seems dishonest to have a record of referring to the 2x2's as "cult-like" and to infer that the 2x2 is a cult, but to then hedge away from this last minute (just one example below of this practice from this forum). Ross.BowdenThis practice of mentioning a controversial topic then concurrently denying it is known as Apophasis.It is apparently a common political tool. The speaker brings up a polemical term or comment, then pretends to distance themselves from it. They are relying on the power of suggestion to prompt the listener or reader to grasp onto the controversial mention and to run with it. |
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Apr 29, 2019 23:00:23 GMT -5
It is playing with semantics and seems dishonest to have a record of referring to the 2x2's as "cult-like" and to infer that the 2x2 is a cult, but to then hedge away from this last minute (just one example below of this practice from this forum). Ross.Bowden This practice of mentioning a controversial topic then concurrently denying it is known as Apophasis.It is apparently a common political tool. The speaker brings up a polemical term or comment, then pretends to distance themselves from it. They are relying on the power of suggestion to prompt the listener or reader to grasp onto the controversial mention and to run with it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pragmatic on Apr 29, 2019 23:38:52 GMT -5
I think the suggestion that Ross is engaging in apophasis is absurd. It's taking his obvious sincerity and care for the victims, and trying to present it as a clever political ploy.
Cult-like and cult mean different things, in the same way that you could say Amway was church-like, but not a church.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 23:56:23 GMT -5
English Language Learners Definition of cult. : a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous.
Seems to fit.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ross.Bowden on Apr 29, 2019 23:59:45 GMT -5
I think the suggestion that Ross is engaging in apophasis is absurd. It's taking his obvious sincerity and care for the victims, and trying to present it as a clever political ploy. Cult-like and cult mean different things, in the same way that you could say Amway was church-like, but not a church. Yes it’s an absurdity and most people would see it as that. However, if it results in polar opposites across the faith, social and I presume political spectrum joining hands in support then at least one good thing comes out of the conversation. |
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on Apr 30, 2019 0:45:04 GMT -5
Ross.Bowden . That webpage does include a reference to the 2x2 cult. Your dogs are beautiful I am sorry to hear that you lost one of them. Our rescued animals are part of the family and when one dies, they leave behind a permanent and sad space. .... here is a thought, would you be willing to put yourself in Ross.Bowden's place ? Would you be willing to put yourself out there to stand up for those that have been abused ? As far as I am concerned it is a cult and should be called exactly that ! So maybe instead of looking for something to criticize Ross.Bowden about, be thankful he was willing to speak out for those that cannot ! |
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Apr 30, 2019 1:47:43 GMT -5
The term 'cult' can be applied to any religous group, sect or denominational church without exception, as the origins of the term are benign and generally it covers all religious practices. However, its normal usage in more modern times has been to separate the supposedly good or mainstream churches from those regarded as weird or harmful. Defining a cult by using the more modern application is and has been shown to be rather difficult, if not unhelpful.
What is more to the point is to ask whether or not any particular religious church, sect or group, has in its character, any adverse cultic practices. These may or may not be obvious and indeed may be argued over. However, every religious church, group or sect, should be very much aware that the potential to participate in unhealthy or adverse cultic practices exists in them all and they should be vigilant to prevent their occurrence within their own group. Pointing the finger at other groups and defining them as a cult merely distracts from recognising the potential within one's own group.
There many good cultic practices out there and most denominations or groups practice them in one way or another. However it is the adverse cultic practices, or simply bad practices, which should be exposed, but again opinions differ regarding what these are, as well as their effects.
If adverse cultic practices exist within a group then at the very least that group is an adverse cult on account of this characteristic.
|
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 30, 2019 2:22:18 GMT -5
Ross.Bowden . That webpage does include a reference to the 2x2 cult. Your dogs are beautiful I am sorry to hear that you lost one of them. Our rescued animals are part of the family and when one dies, they leave behind a permanent and sad space. .... here is a thought, would you be willing to put yourself in Ross.Bowden's place ? Would you be willing to put yourself out there to stand up for those that have been abused ? As far as I am concerned it is a cult and should be called exactly that ! So maybe instead of looking for something to criticize Ross.Bowden about, be thankful he was willing to speak out for those that cannot ! This bears repeating! Thank you, Rosalie! |
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 30, 2019 2:25:39 GMT -5
It is playing with semantics and seems dishonest to have a record of referring to the 2x2's as "cult-like" and to infer that the 2x2 is a cult, but to then hedge away from this last minute (just one example below of this practice from this forum). Ross.Bowden This practice of mentioning a controversial topic then concurrently denying it is known as Apophasis.It is apparently a common political tool. The speaker brings up a polemical term or comment, then pretends to distance themselves from it. They are relying on the power of suggestion to prompt the listener or reader to grasp onto the controversial mention and to run with it.
It does not mean the same thing! |
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 30, 2019 2:28:57 GMT -5
As I have said before. The only difference between a cult and a church is the size of the congregation.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Apr 30, 2019 4:31:50 GMT -5
The term 'cult' can be applied to any religous group, sect or denominational church without exception, as the origins of the term are benign and generally it covers all religious practices. However, its normal usage in more modern times has been to separate the supposedly good or mainstream churches from those regarded as weird or harmful. Defining a cult by using the more modern application is and has been shown to be rather difficult, if not unhelpful.
I tend to agree... I never really thought of the Truth as a cult per se, I just thought they emphasized some unimportant things and took them to an extreme, while over-looking some of the more important mainstream tenets of Christianity. Most denominations cling to certain things that set them apart, but it doesn't necessarily classify them as cults or even cult-like.. jmo
|
|
|
|
Post by joanna on Apr 30, 2019 4:33:37 GMT -5
Roselyn T . The 60 minutes program gave a voice to the victims and their account of abuse within the 2x2's was powerful and vital. Good on Ross if he empowered them to speak out. I have advocated and used media to speak up for the abused who are physically unable to speak up for themselves. If i had been contacted by victims of CSA, then i would try to leave it to those victims to articulate their stories, as their words best convey the horror of their experiences, and also the workers and other 2x2 members disgusting disregard for the rights of children to be free from abuse. The term "cult" can be applied to every faith group, not just the 2x2's. Unfortunately too many christians continue to eagerly identify characteristics in other churches that also exist within their own.
|
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Apr 30, 2019 7:48:38 GMT -5
Roselyn T . The 60 minutes program gave a voice to the victims and their account of abuse within the 2x2's was powerful and vital. Good on Ross if he empowered them to speak out. I have advocated and used media to speak up for the abused who are physically unable to speak up for themselves. If i had been contacted by victims of CSA, then i would try to leave it to those victims to articulate their stories, as their words best convey the horror of their experiences, and also the workers and other 2x2 members disgusting disregard for the rights of children to be free from abuse. The term "cult" can be applied to every faith group, not just the 2x2's. Unfortunately too many christians continue to eagerly identify characteristics in other churches that also exist within their own.
What these exes don't realize is they jumped out of frying pan (2x2 they call Cult) into the FIRE! (BIGGER Cults or cult like) and they don't even KNOW or believe it.
Emo on Cults and heretics... Very Funny but it's TRUE.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fAcxcxoZ8
Posted by The Reporter New York on May 27, 2009, 12:18 pm, in reply to
"Re: Is Ex-worker Chris Brophy no longer professing?"
I have read all that was posted here and only "Sharon" that continues to make sense. I have never met this woman but she professes in all her comments to be very matured and knows what it is like to have the true spirit in her life. I am a reporter that was hired to follow the 2x2 church.. it was described as a cult! so the plan was that I should have gone there and make bad reports of what goes on in their meetings, special meetings, Gospel meetings and Convention. I have been following this 2x2 for about two (2 years) and have been to all their gatherings and to date I cannot find anything bad to report...please note... I AM NOT APART OF THIS GROUP BUT HAD DONE A LOT OF RESEARCHES BECAUSE OF THE GRUESOME STORIES THAT I WAS TOLD.
I have been to several other denominations and none compares to this fellowship!... and to you people who are dormant about this is a cult!... Do you know the meaning of the word cult??... How about the other churches that is only interested of how much they collects each Sunday?... Many churches have been turned into the biggest money making business... that's all it is " THE MONEY, THE MONEY". Let me remind you and also Chris Brophy there are many false doctrine that exists and the Lord warns you about those who knows better and yet continues to blaspheme against his way and his people!!! and if Chris was reading his bible the right way you would have note that this doctrine is coming from bible days... when God met with his disciples those were the first meetings in fellowship. Every where you go, work, church, club... even in "Hell" there are rules! and from what I can see these people have clean high standard rules!
I have seen this 2x2 church reaches out to people on different occasions even people who are not apart of their fellowship. These PEOPLE DID NOTHING TO HURT ANYONE and Chris if you left the 2x2 and still is miserable... don't you realized the problem is not the 2x2 but the problem is you? and you keep mentioning your wife which is good but also remember is a woman that had encourage Adam to eat the bad apple!! and I notice you had said repentance is never mentioned in the meetings... well I don't know how they preached at the meeting you used to attend... but at the gospel meeting I went a couple of times that was the theme! I AM NOT APART OF ANY DENOMINATION BUT I WOULD CHOOSE THE 2X2 CHURCH ANY DAY OVER THE REST OF THE MONEY GRABBERS!
Regards
The reporter NY.
|
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on Apr 30, 2019 8:13:21 GMT -5
Roselyn T . The 60 minutes program gave a voice to the victims and their account of abuse within the 2x2's was powerful and vital. Good on Ross if he empowered them to speak out. I have advocated and used media to speak up for the abused who are physically unable to speak up for themselves. If i had been contacted by victims of CSA, then i would try to leave it to those victims to articulate their stories, as their words best convey the horror of their experiences, and also the workers and other 2x2 members disgusting disregard for the rights of children to be free from abuse. The term "cult" can be applied to every faith group, not just the 2x2's. Unfortunately too many christians continue to eagerly identify characteristics in other churches that also exist within their own.
What these exes don't realize is they jumped out of frying pan (2x2 they call Cult) into the FIRE! (BIGGER Cults or cult like) and they don't even KNOW or believe it.
Emo on Cults and heretics... Very Funny but it's TRUE.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fAcxcxoZ8
Posted by The Reporter New York on May 27, 2009, 12:18 pm, in reply to
"Re: Is Ex-worker Chris Brophy no longer professing?"
I have read all that was posted here and only "Sharon" that continues to make sense. I have never met this woman but she professes in all her comments to be very matured and knows what it is like to have the true spirit in her life. I am a reporter that was hired to follow the 2x2 church.. it was described as a cult! so the plan was that I should have gone there and make bad reports of what goes on in their meetings, special meetings, Gospel meetings and Convention. I have been following this 2x2 for about two (2 years) and have been to all their gatherings and to date I cannot find anything bad to report...please note... I AM NOT APART OF THIS GROUP BUT HAD DONE A LOT OF RESEARCHES BECAUSE OF THE GRUESOME STORIES THAT I WAS TOLD.
I have been to several other denominations and none compares to this fellowship!... and to you people who are dormant about this is a cult!... Do you know the meaning of the word cult??... How about the other churches that is only interested of how much they collects each Sunday?... Many churches have been turned into the biggest money making business... that's all it is " THE MONEY, THE MONEY". Let me remind you and also Chris Brophy there are many false doctrine that exists and the Lord warns you about those who knows better and yet continues to blaspheme against his way and his people!!! and if Chris was reading his bible the right way you would have note that this doctrine is coming from bible days... when God met with his disciples those were the first meetings in fellowship. Every where you go, work, church, club... even in "Hell" there are rules! and from what I can see these people have clean high standard rules!
I have seen this 2x2 church reaches out to people on different occasions even people who are not apart of their fellowship. These PEOPLE DID NOTHING TO HURT ANYONE and Chris if you left the 2x2 and still is miserable... don't you realized the problem is not the 2x2 but the problem is you? and you keep mentioning your wife which is good but also remember is a woman that had encourage Adam to eat the bad apple!! and I notice you had said repentance is never mentioned in the meetings... well I don't know how they preached at the meeting you used to attend... but at the gospel meeting I went a couple of times that was the theme! I AM NOT APART OF ANY DENOMINATION BUT I WOULD CHOOSE THE 2X2 CHURCH ANY DAY OVER THE REST OF THE MONEY GRABBERS!
Regards
The reporter NY.
Would that be like the "Jesus lives in Venus cult" that you believe in nathan ! |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 30, 2019 11:46:57 GMT -5
As I have said before. The only difference between a cult and a church is the size of the congregation.That seems to be true now anyways. At one point all new religious sects that were less than 100 years old were considered cults. It changes. Now it usually is a derogatory term. I had to do a paper on the Jonestown mass suicide for one of my psychology classes. At that point, under the 100 year old definition, the 2x2's were still a cult. At that point I didn't know about Irvine and the start in 1897 approx. Otherwise I would have known they were considered a cult by that definition. It was just starting to become a derogatory label. I think that Jonestown and the Moonies helped change the meaning to what we see people thinking cult means today. For good reason I guess. |
|
|
|
Post by thelight on May 1, 2019 17:38:16 GMT -5
Snow maybe there will be answers in the future, there is more to come in regard to this person. So keep tuned, you will be kept informed. Interesting. Another television programme? |
|
I am sorry to hear that you lost one of them. Our rescued animals are part of the family and when one dies, they leave behind a permanent and sad space.
