Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 17:05:18 GMT -5
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Post by speak on Apr 21, 2019 17:21:15 GMT -5
I think this may work; www.9now.com.au/60-minutes/2019/extras/latest/april/the-truth-hurtsI am a little stuck on the inaccuracy of the how they know a certain gentleman is still attending church meetings with children present.....I personally know he is NOT!!! Such a small inaccuracy.....or a purposeful comment to condemn. All I can say is we are all victims and perpetrators....of what...thankful God knows....Rom 3:23 can therefore the whole program be treated with a little skepticism or can it be taken as whole truth? |
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Post by bendle on Apr 21, 2019 17:34:52 GMT -5
Link works for me in the uk. Words fail me. Brave women, hats off to them. I met a Richard Gas from NSW a good many years ago when he came to the UK looking up his UK family. Any relation does anyone know? |
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Post by ellie on Apr 21, 2019 17:50:04 GMT -5
I think this may work; www.9now.com.au/60-minutes/2019/extras/latest/april/the-truth-hurtsI am a little stuck on the inaccuracy of the how they know a certain gentleman is still attending church meetings with children present.....I personally know he is NOT!!! Such a small inaccuracy.....or a purposeful comment to condemn. All I can say is we are all victims and perpetrators....of what...thankful God knows....Rom 3:23 At the time I thought they said he had attended, not that he was currently attending. It could be as simple as him attending a day at convention just the once. I'm not going back to check though. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2019 17:53:27 GMT -5
I think this may work; www.9now.com.au/60-minutes/2019/extras/latest/april/the-truth-hurtsI am a little stuck on the inaccuracy of the how they know a certain gentleman is still attending church meetings with children present.....I personally know he is NOT!!! Such a small inaccuracy.....or a purposeful comment to condemn. All I can say is we are all victims and perpetrators....of what...thankful God knows....Rom 3:23 Has he attended Convention howitis ? |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2019 17:58:06 GMT -5
I think this may work; www.9now.com.au/60-minutes/2019/extras/latest/april/the-truth-hurtsI am a little stuck on the inaccuracy of the how they know a certain gentleman is still attending church meetings with children present.....I personally know he is NOT!!! Such a small inaccuracy.....or a purposeful comment to condemn. All I can say is we are all victims and perpetrators....of what...thankful God knows....Rom 3:23 can therefore the whole program be treated with a little skepticism or can it be taken as whole truth? Considering it showed six men who have been charged and done jail time I don't see how it can be treated with "skepticism" ! Also not sure why the last lady who had nothing to do with the 2x2s would "make up" what happened to her ! |
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Post by howitis on Apr 21, 2019 18:03:57 GMT -5
I think this may work; www.9now.com.au/60-minutes/2019/extras/latest/april/the-truth-hurtsI am a little stuck on the inaccuracy of the how they know a certain gentleman is still attending church meetings with children present.....I personally know he is NOT!!! Such a small inaccuracy.....or a purposeful comment to condemn. All I can say is we are all victims and perpetrators....of what...thankful God knows....Rom 3:23 Has he attended Convention howitis ? No, and no fellowship meetings with children either.....this is just one instance where many people have got many things very wrong .....the truth will prevail and there will be quite a few burnt fingers. I'm quite happy with the broadcast it has shown the inaccuracies......it has brought to light a problem that is rampant in all facets of society and has also shown a glimpse of how some people really are, some of which I once believed were good honest folk.....oh how 5 minutes of a spotlight can change our view....I'm grateful. |
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Post by DrPetros on Apr 21, 2019 18:06:45 GMT -5
Does anyone know what "positive steps have been taken to train ministers" by Mr Kitto, or that another blatant lie?
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Post by becareful on Apr 21, 2019 18:16:45 GMT -5
I have to say I was upset by the inaccuracies in reporting because I feel there is potential for people to sweep it all aside.... all ‘fake news’. 60 minutes claim to have been researching for 12 months ... I was expecting more. I don’t want to detract from the statements of survivors but personally feel sorry there wasn’t more accuracy in setting the scene.
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Post by ellie on Apr 21, 2019 18:28:26 GMT -5
I have to say I was upset by the inaccuracies in reporting because I feel there is potential for people to sweep it all aside.... all ‘fake news’. 60 minutes claim to have been researching for 12 months ... I was expecting more. I don’t want to detract from the statements of survivors but personally feel sorry there wasn’t more accuracy in setting the scene. Obviously the set wasn't well researched. Otherwise what parts did you find inaccuracies in? Was it the commentary, or something else? |
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Post by becareful on Apr 21, 2019 18:42:42 GMT -5
Just little things in comparison to the actual story.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 21, 2019 18:54:09 GMT -5
I think this may work; www.9now.com.au/60-minutes/2019/extras/latest/april/the-truth-hurtsI am a little stuck on the inaccuracy of the how they know a certain gentleman is still attending church meetings with children present.....I personally know he is NOT!!! Such a small inaccuracy.....or a purposeful comment to condemn. All I can say is we are all victims and perpetrators....of what...thankful God knows....Rom 3:23 The exact wording, from 9:15 of the recording is: "Alan said he banned Louise’s abuser from going to church pending the outcome of court proceedings. But we can confirm that even after being convicted of child sexual abuse, the man still attended church meetings."If he attended any meetings, at all, after his conviction, this is still a true statement. The statement does not specify whether or not children were present. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2019 18:55:41 GMT -5
Has he attended Convention howitis ? No, and no fellowship meetings with children either.....this is just one instance where many people have got many things very wrong .....the truth will prevail and there will be quite a few burnt fingers. I'm quite happy with the broadcast it has shown the inaccuracies......it has brought to light a problem that is rampant in all facets of society and has also shown a glimpse of how some people really are, some of which I once believed were good honest folk.....oh how 5 minutes of a spotlight can change our view....I'm grateful. So howitis .... can you tell us what "all the inaccuracies" were please ? |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2019 18:59:26 GMT -5
They are all victims except Ross, who spoke very eloquently against the abuses by leadership and culture of cover-up. I think the program was a very accurate portrayal of the group, apart from a few minor things that only we would notice ie chapel shaped windows, a woman going in to a meeting in a sleeveless dress (not historically accepted in regional parts of Australia). Those arches and the preacher were a bit off but mostly I thought it was a reasonable presentation of the church. There will of course be members who get stuck on little inaccuracies including the comment on women not cutting their hair. I think for a long time it was easier for many in the fellowship to ignore victims than acknowledge that such a thing could and did happen among God's people. I imagine there were also some who kept quiet to protect the image of the fellowship and the weaker members. Sex and by extension sexual abuse were taboo topics in the fellowship. No doubt that makes it more difficult for victims to speak up or be heard by others in meetings. The video did not touch on this, but, it was and likely is still seen as a good thing for meetings children to remain naive about the human body and sex. This puts the children at risk of abuse. As far as not being allowed to cut our hair.... for me this was right ! I was NOT ALLOWED to have my hair cut or trimmed! |
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Post by joanna on Apr 21, 2019 19:01:35 GMT -5
My family and i watched the program. We all felt an overwhelmingly sadness for the victims of the sexual abuse and respect for their courage and their concern that others may be abused and their attempts to prevent other victims.
One family member who watched was reared in the roman catholic church but no longer believes. He said the avoidance or sweeping knowledge of the abuse 'under the carpet' and the neglect of the victims' welfare was comparable to the actions (or non-actions) of the roman catholic churches' handling of CSA. He also thought the failure of a church representative to engage in an interview was 'not a good thing'.
Another relative mentioned that if major human rights organisations expel employees who expose sexual abuse, what more can we expect from a church group who is trying to stay under the radar?
Unfortunately Ross Bowden presented as if he was enjoying the interview which was incongruent with the horrible experiences of the victims.
The account of the poor woman who was not brought up in the meetings, yet was abused by the man whose identity has been (wrongly) protected, did prompt some queries.
Ross and others attribute the 'secretive and exclusive nature' of the 2x2 group as a contributor to CSA yet the freedom that main abuser had did not exemplify those characteristics. Why was a teenage lad who attended meetings regularly visiting non-professing people for meals and guitar playing?
People who have no previous knowledge about the meetings would fail to discern the discrepancies in the 60 minutes focus.
Probably what they would take away from it are the commonalities with other hierarchical organisations, particularly those of a religious genre who esteem certain members as being beyond reproach and 'a law unto themselves'.
It is illogical for some of the more anti-ex 2x2's to single out behaviours and culture of the 2x2 grp as being the cause of the abuse given CSA is unfortunately so endemic in religious organisations who share some, but not all of the behaviours. Certainly the close relationship of workers with the 2x2 congregation and their being absorbed into family life and interaction with children must increase the incidence and the old-fashioned attitude towards sex as a taboo topic is unhealthy.
If Alan Kitto (whom i knew as a child and who seemed a nice enough fellow then) or any other decision-making worker was to read this thread, i would hope they have come to their senses and realised that in apparently ignoring one of those poor woman's reporting of her father's continued abuse, they have ruined lives. From now on, anyone who commits abuse should be immediately reported.
The 2x2 grp should introduce a process to enable clear and decisive responses, which conform to legal standards, to any CSA or other crimes.
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Post by howitis on Apr 21, 2019 19:05:20 GMT -5
No, and no fellowship meetings with children either.....this is just one instance where many people have got many things very wrong .....the truth will prevail and there will be quite a few burnt fingers. I'm quite happy with the broadcast it has shown the inaccuracies......it has brought to light a problem that is rampant in all facets of society and has also shown a glimpse of how some people really are, some of which I once believed were good honest folk.....oh how 5 minutes of a spotlight can change our view....I'm grateful. So howitis .... can you tell us what "all the inaccuracies" were please ? Too many to list, those that are familiar with the church, the cases presented and the people interviewed and contributing, know them. It was mentioned more than once about a certain gentleman still attending not just at 9 15, my opinion, the report in general won't make the mark many hoped for .....perhaps if the focus report had of been on a different case it would have helped. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 21, 2019 19:26:56 GMT -5
So howitis .... can you tell us what "all the inaccuracies" were please ? Too many to list, those that are familiar with the church, the cases presented and the people interviewed and contributing, know them. It was mentioned more than once about a certain gentleman still attending not just at 9 15, my opinion, the report in general won't make the mark many hoped for .....perhaps if the focus report had of been on a different case it would have helped. It appears to me that you are looking for any slight justification to ridicule the report and therefore the victims. Men have been jailed for being kiddy B kinders and you still attempt to ridicule. Shame on you. You merit similar treatment as the crims. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2019 19:29:24 GMT -5
So howitis .... can you tell us what "all the inaccuracies" were please ? Too many to list, those that are familiar with the church, the cases presented and the people interviewed and contributing, know them. It was mentioned more than once about a certain gentleman still attending not just at 9 15, my opinion, the report in general won't make the mark many hoped for .....perhaps if the focus report had of been on a different case it would have helped. Considering I am 5th generation howitis I would say I am very familiar with "the church" ! You stated there were inaccuraces so according to how you were raised what are they ? Of course any program is not going to get everything 100% right .... |
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Post by howitis on Apr 21, 2019 19:56:14 GMT -5
Too many to list, those that are familiar with the church, the cases presented and the people interviewed and contributing, know them. It was mentioned more than once about a certain gentleman still attending not just at 9 15, my opinion, the report in general won't make the mark many hoped for .....perhaps if the focus report had of been on a different case it would have helped. It appears to me that you are looking for any slight justification to ridicule the report and therefore the victims. Men have been jailed for being kiddy B kinders and you still attempt to ridicule. Shame on you. You merit similar treatment as the crims. Thank you curlywurlysammagee, if you notice the majority of the report is about one who has not been jailed .....if you think I am looking for justification so be it, no one can justify the messing up of children's lives.....no one.....as a survivor I also know it is pointless to point the finger at any one group or organisation.....does it make it right? No, not by any means, what has been done to children all the world over is so so wrong....and us sitting there thinking how awful and wrong changes nothing .....demanding an encompassing rigid set of guidelines for all to follow in regards to those that have dealings with children is the only way ....the WWCC was to assist, but is already showing how faulty it is....come on... can't we all do better than ridicule each other or a particular group and wanting to sit there smug whilst we know its happening in our own backyard.....or have we set some sort of level of at worst pointing the finger and at best being NIMBY's |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2019 20:18:10 GMT -5
It appears to me that you are looking for any slight justification to ridicule the report and therefore the victims. Men have been jailed for being kiddy B kinders and you still attempt to ridicule. Shame on you. You merit similar treatment as the crims. Thank you curlywurlysammagee, if you notice the majority of the report is about one who has not been jailed .....if you think I am looking for justification so be it, no one can justify the messing up of children's lives.....no one.....as a survivor I also know it is pointless to point the finger at any one group or organisation.....does it make it right? No, not by any means, what has been done to children all the world over is so so wrong....and us sitting there thinking how awful and wrong changes nothing .....demanding an encompassing rigid set of guidelines for all to follow in regards to those that have dealings with children is the only way ....the WWCC was to assist, but is already showing how faulty it is....come on... can't we all do better than ridicule each other or a particular group and wanting to sit there smug whilst we know its happening in our own backyard.....or have we set some sort of level of at worst pointing the finger and at best being NIMBY's When a group of people believe they are the "only right church" they put themselves in a place to be ridiculed. In the past the group has been quick to judge other churches instead of cleaning up their own backyard! |
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Post by fred on Apr 21, 2019 20:22:59 GMT -5
My family and i watched the program. We all felt an overwhelmingly sadness for the victims of the sexual abuse and respect for their courage and their concern that others may be abused and their attempts to prevent other victims. One family member who watched was reared in the roman catholic church but no longer believes. He said the avoidance or sweeping knowledge of the abuse 'under the carpet' and the neglect of the victims' welfare was comparable to the actions (or non-actions) of the roman catholic churches' handling of CSA. He also thought the failure of a church representative to engage in an interview was 'not a good thing'. Another relative mentioned that if major human rights organisations expel employees who expose sexual abuse, what more can we expect from a church group who is trying to stay under the radar? Unfortunately Ross Bowden presented as if he was enjoying the interview which was incongruent with the horrible experiences of the victims. The account of the poor woman who was not brought up in the meetings, yet was abused by the man whose identity has been (wrongly) protected, did prompt some queries. Ross and others attribute the 'secretive and exclusive nature' of the 2x2 group as a contributor to CSA yet the freedom that main abuser had did not exemplify those characteristics. Why was a teenage lad who attended meetings regularly visiting non-professing people for meals and guitar playing? People who have no previous knowledge about the meetings would fail to discern the discrepancies in the 60 minutes focus. Probably what they would take away from it are the commonalities with other hierarchical organisations, particularly those of a religious genre who esteem certain members as being beyond reproach and 'a law unto themselves'. It is illogical for some of the more anti-ex 2x2's to single out behaviours and culture of the 2x2 grp as being the cause of the abuse given CSA is unfortunately so endemic in religious organisations who share some, but not all of the behaviours. Certainly the close relationship of workers with the 2x2 congregation and their being absorbed into family life and interaction with children must increase the incidence and the old-fashioned attitude towards sex as a taboo topic is unhealthy. If Alan Kitto (whom i knew as a child and who seemed a nice enough fellow then) or any other decision-making worker was to read this thread, i would hope they have come to their senses and realised that in apparently ignoring one of those poor woman's reporting of her father's continued abuse, they have ruined lives. From now on, anyone who commits abuse should be immediately reported. The 2x2 grp should introduce a process to enable clear and decisive responses, which conform to legal standards, to any CSA or other crimes. A very balanced reaction Joanna, thank you. The only comment I would make is that some of the language was a trifle 'loaded' and some statements were anachronistic. I'm not sure what steps were taken in 2014 but I've not heard any mention from ministry members about this, but then I've never asked specifically. Such steps ought to be spoken about openly, but then it would lead folk to think that it was a problem and that would never do. Knowing Allan, I feel he will just brush it off and continue on. |
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Post by howitis on Apr 21, 2019 20:26:01 GMT -5
Thank you curlywurlysammagee , if you notice the majority of the report is about one who has not been jailed .....if you think I am looking for justification so be it, no one can justify the messing up of children's lives.....no one.....as a survivor I also know it is pointless to point the finger at any one group or organisation.....does it make it right? No, not by any means, what has been done to children all the world over is so so wrong....and us sitting there thinking how awful and wrong changes nothing .....demanding an encompassing rigid set of guidelines for all to follow in regards to those that have dealings with children is the only way ....the WWCC was to assist, but is already showing how faulty it is....come on... can't we all do better than ridicule each other or a particular group and wanting to sit there smug whilst we know its happening in our own backyard.....or have we set some sort of level of at worst pointing the finger and at best being NIMBY's When a group of people believe they are the "only right church" they put themselves in a place to be ridiculed. In the past the group has been quick to judge other churches instead of cleaning up their own backyard! I like how you say "in the past" .....do you allow or accept that things change? Have you changed? I notice you still call yourself 5th generation, some members of your family may well be, but are you? Exactly who do you identify with? Those in or those out? I have not heard this "only right church" mantra for quite some time, some may think it admittedly and perhaps for them that is their truth and who are we to take it away from them? Only last weekend I was a visitor in a meeting where there were visitors dressed in ...pants....not of the "church" took part in testimony and the emblems.....yes a worker knew, is it a shame ....no.....is it change....yes!!! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 20:50:59 GMT -5
i didn't like the fact they implied the truth welcomes pedophiles into its ranks, i've yet to see a flyer thats says pedophiles welcome...they also implied that there is a massive amount of pedophilia going on in the truth with no proof i direct anyone to read wingsfortruth.info for this supposed mass of pedophiles...
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2019 21:20:06 GMT -5
When a group of people believe they are the "only right church" they put themselves in a place to be ridiculed. In the past the group has been quick to judge other churches instead of cleaning up their own backyard! I like how you say "in the past" .....do you allow or accept that things change? Have you changed? I notice you still call yourself 5th generation, some members of your family may well be, but are you? Exactly who do you identify with? Those in or those out? I have not heard this "only right church" mantra for quite some time, some may think it admittedly and perhaps for them that is their truth and who are we to take it away from them? Only last weekend I was a visitor in a meeting where there were visitors dressed in ...pants....not of the "church" took part in testimony and the emblems.....yes a worker knew, is it a shame ....no.....is it change....yes!!! Well actually going by the last funeral I attended in December ...I would say the idea they are the only right church is alive and well ! Maybe I should say I was 5th generation of the cult ...! |
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Post by howitis on Apr 21, 2019 21:24:35 GMT -5
I like how you say "in the past" .....do you allow or accept that things change? Have you changed? I notice you still call yourself 5th generation, some members of your family may well be, but are you? Exactly who do you identify with? Those in or those out? I have not heard this "only right church" mantra for quite some time, some may think it admittedly and perhaps for them that is their truth and who are we to take it away from them? Only last weekend I was a visitor in a meeting where there were visitors dressed in ...pants....not of the "church" took part in testimony and the emblems.....yes a worker knew, is it a shame ....no.....is it change....yes!!! Well actually going by the last funeral I attended in December ...I would say the idea they are the only right church is alive and well ! Maybe I should say I was 5th generation of the cult ...! That's your truth and I'm not one to take that from you. |
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jwatt
Senior Member
Posts: 211
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Post by jwatt on Apr 21, 2019 22:24:08 GMT -5
Very brave ladies for speaking up! Let's hope more come forward and some proper action is taken in keeping the children safe!! Very sad the correct action through the legal system doesn't always happen. CSA is getting all to common everywhere but in a church they should be safe!
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Post by openingact34 on Apr 21, 2019 23:04:32 GMT -5
Those arches and the preacher were a bit off but mostly I thought it was a reasonable presentation of the church. There will of course be members who get stuck on little inaccuracies including the comment on women not cutting their hair. I think for a long time it was easier for many in the fellowship to ignore victims than acknowledge that such a thing could and did happen among God's people. I imagine there were also some who kept quiet to protect the image of the fellowship and the weaker members. Sex and by extension sexual abuse were taboo topics in the fellowship. No doubt that makes it more difficult for victims to speak up or be heard by others in meetings. The video did not touch on this, but, it was and likely is still seen as a good thing for meetings children to remain naive about the human body and sex. This puts the children at risk of abuse. As far as not being allowed to cut our hair.... for me this was right ! I was NOT ALLOWED to have my hair cut or trimmed! Seeing professing women being portrayed as wearing sandals in meeting was another really cringeworthy moment for me. |
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Post by openingact34 on Apr 21, 2019 23:34:47 GMT -5
Alan Kitto was given the opportunity to be interviewed by 60 minutes but declined. Big mistake, will only prolong the problem. I can't imagine that any competent lawyer would advise him to be interviewed regarding this situation. But where was the response or statement by Graham Snow, Alan's boss and the actual Head of the Truth in Australia. The twobies were all claiming that he was there to assume responsibility for dealing with this situation and "make straight the way of the lord". |
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