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Post by thelight on Apr 16, 2019 18:46:08 GMT -5
Looks like the conversational topic has changed from the thread topic... maybe the discussion can continue in a new thread?? Leave this one to discuss the 60 minutes story. Thanks
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Post by benar on Apr 16, 2019 18:47:37 GMT -5
So why are some children born with disease? Genetics, parental indulgences before and during pregnancy, etc Yes, that's what the evidence points to. No god required, and a far simpler explanation than invoking a god, especially your own specific version of a particular god. |
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Post by Dennis J on Apr 16, 2019 19:16:28 GMT -5
Genetics, parental indulgences before and during pregnancy, etc Yes, that's what the evidence points to. No god required, and a far simpler explanation than invoking a god, especially your own specific version of a particular god.
DAJ |
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Post by benar on Apr 16, 2019 21:12:41 GMT -5
Yes, that's what the evidence points to. No god required, and a far simpler explanation than invoking a god, especially your own specific version of a particular god.
DAJThe thing is, atheism is a lack of belief in any god. They say there are as many versions of the Christian god as there are Christians - i.e. everyone has their own interpretation, subtly different from anyone else. Because atheism is a lack of belief in a god, there are no specific versions of it, just as you would not need to define what type of non-believer of fairies you are. Note that atheism is just the lack of belief in a god, it says nothing about any other beliefs like abiogenesis or evolution. What version of god do you believe in? I would have thought some form of personal god, who created the universe, created humans, controls affairs, answers prayers etc. These are all things we can show do not exist. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 16, 2019 22:07:48 GMT -5
Just curious? Is that not what you do in nigh unto every post, every time? In reading your posts, not once have I observed any, even close in similarity with my Lord GOD. Still, it doesn’t stop you from attempting to paint my Lord GOD with your wide brush.
DAJ The thing is, atheism is a lack of belief in any god. They say there are as many versions of the Christian god as there are Christians - i.e. everyone has their own interpretation, subtly different from anyone else. Because atheism is a lack of belief in a god, there are no specific versions of it, just as you would not need to define what type of non-believer of fairies you are. Note that atheism is just the lack of belief in a god, it says nothing about any other beliefs like abiogenesis or evolution. What version of god do you believe in? I would have thought some form of personal god, who created the universe, created humans, controls affairs, answers prayers etc. These are all things we can show do not exist. Uhhhh, there isn’t a difference in Christian God outside of whether Jesus is God the Son. The differences in Christian sects is in their tenets of belief or operational tenets. |
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Post by benar on Apr 16, 2019 22:28:33 GMT -5
The thing is, atheism is a lack of belief in any god. They say there are as many versions of the Christian god as there are Christians - i.e. everyone has their own interpretation, subtly different from anyone else. Because atheism is a lack of belief in a god, there are no specific versions of it, just as you would not need to define what type of non-believer of fairies you are. Note that atheism is just the lack of belief in a god, it says nothing about any other beliefs like abiogenesis or evolution. What version of god do you believe in? I would have thought some form of personal god, who created the universe, created humans, controls affairs, answers prayers etc. These are all things we can show do not exist. Uhhhh, there isn’t a difference in Christian God outside of whether Jesus is God the Son. The differences in Christian sects is in their tenets of belief or operational tenets. Right, which is why I'm confused by Dennis saying " In reading your posts, not once have I observed any, even close in similarity with my Lord GOD. Still, it doesn’t stop you from attempting to paint my Lord GOD with your wide brush." My posts are usually directed at refuting the idea of a god who created the universe, a god who created humans, a god who controls affairs or a god who answers prayers. It seems to me my posts address the very same "Lord GOD" that Dennis believes in. |
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Post by Dennis J on Apr 17, 2019 0:54:33 GMT -5
Uhhhh, there isn’t a difference in Christian God outside of whether Jesus is God the Son. The differences in Christian sects is in their tenets of belief or operational tenets. Right, which is why I'm confused by Dennis saying " In reading your posts, not once have I observed any, even close in similarity with my Lord GOD. Still, it doesn’t stop you from attempting to paint my Lord GOD with your wide brush." My posts are usually directed at refuting the idea of a god who created the universe, a god who created humans, a god who controls affairs or a god who answers prayers. It seems to me my posts address the very same "Lord GOD" that Dennis believes in.
No wonder it is recorded, first to know and please God, one must believe that He is. You think you know so much and yet don’t (can’t) even comprehend how little you know. No skin off my teeth, is it? You cannot even describe the Lord God, by choice, even though others declare it is not by choice.
Everyone (That means everybody) gets to choose what to believe. I do NOT condemn any of you for that, only any truth I have spoken will condemn anyone when this awareness ceases, just as my Lord GOD said of His words. Neither you nor anyone else certainly do not need my permission to believe anything, so... Seems it never enters anyone’s head that I might have far more reason NOT to believe than they, yet dumb as any believe me to be, I DO believe.
Purposed a long time ago to my Lord GOD that in eternity He could point to me when anyone claimed they could not believe, because... I will remain true to that purpose even drawing my last breath.
Dennis
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Post by benar on Apr 17, 2019 3:23:28 GMT -5
Right, which is why I'm confused by Dennis saying " In reading your posts, not once have I observed any, even close in similarity with my Lord GOD. Still, it doesn’t stop you from attempting to paint my Lord GOD with your wide brush." My posts are usually directed at refuting the idea of a god who created the universe, a god who created humans, a god who controls affairs or a god who answers prayers. It seems to me my posts address the very same "Lord GOD" that Dennis believes in.
No wonder it is recorded, first to know and please God, one must believe that He is. You think you know so much and yet don’t (can’t) even comprehend how little you know. No skin off my teeth, is it? You cannot even describe the Lord God, by choice, even though others declare it is not by choice.
Everyone (That means everybody) gets to choose what to believe. I do NOT condemn any of you for that, only any truth I have spoken will condemn anyone when this awareness ceases, just as my Lord GOD said of His words. Neither you nor anyone else certainly do not need my permission to believe anything, so... Seems it never enters anyone’s head that I might have far more reason NOT to believe than they, yet dumb as any believe me to be, I DO believe.
Purposed a long time ago to my Lord GOD that in eternity He could point to me when anyone claimed they could not believe, because... I will remain true to that purpose even drawing my last breath.
Dennis
That's putting the cart before the horse Dennis. Rather than believe, then look for confirming evidence, we should look at the evidence and see what it suggests. This is one way we can avoid confirmation bias. Imagine I said to you in order to know Vishnu, you must first believe. Surely when you see that statement about an opposing belief system you can see how it's not the best way to go about determining truth. Now, when it comes to belief, we do not choose what to believe. What we believe is a result of what we are convinced by. One can hope or pretend to believe, but one cannot truly believe unless one is convinced. Anyway, I feel I've taken this thread off topic long enough. I am looking forward to seeing what 60 minutes presents us on Sunday night. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2019 7:57:51 GMT -5
It's not a bad thing. The abuse of children, and the coverup of abuse, is a great evil and shouldn't be once named amongst godly people. The fellowship will be stronger as a result of exposure to the light. (NLT) John 3:20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.
21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants. If this was the historical and current attitude of those in charge, many wouldn't have left. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2019 11:00:20 GMT -5
Johnny DeRaad -
"Snow says it's true... so it's true Gratu..why do you continue to kick against the pricks?"
Acts 9:5 KJV "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." does not appear in the NET Bible (with all its translater's notes) and the NET has no note as to why that phrase is not there. But in the context of the KJV, which is Saul on the road to Damacus to persecute believers, it is Saul kicking against "the pricks," not the pricks kicking against Saul.
i smiled at yours for a moment before looking up what I thought was your reference spot - and if Acts 9:5 is your reference point you have it reversed - it is snow who is kicking against the pricks - with mine representing "the pricks." Now once I realized that context, I had a much bigger smile because it is indeed hard for snow to make "fact" out of theories etc. etc. etc. That's what workers do - they make their lies into "Truth" and a few 2x2s now realize that, just like snow, the workers kick against the pricks and very likely taught snow thsat skill.
I would have expected former 2x2s who reject the workers' lies to do a bit better thinking after leaving "the Truth", but there are a number who post on this board who still practice what they rejected in the workers, and pretend to have made a change in their thinking.
Atheists in former decades pitied believers because (just as God said they would) they figured believers were fools - they didn't bother attacking what they considered fools because that would make themselves into fools too.
In more recent times, however, Atheists have begun loudly attacked God at every opportunity - kind of like the fool on the street corner who does a fine job of smacking both sides of his own face continually.
Anyway, that's about enough off topic discussion from me - its now next week and I anticipate a link we can use to view the Australian 60 Minutes episode on this thread soon.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2019 14:58:48 GMT -5
The episode will be placed on You Tube by Channel 9. This will not be available until it has gone to air in Australia. When the link is available, it will be posted on this thread.
A promotion for the 60 Minutes program this Easter Sunday is now running on Channel 9 in Australia. For those in Australia be watching Channel 9, 7pm Sunday. The rest of the World, be patient, you will get to see it on You Tube.
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Post by bgm on Apr 17, 2019 17:33:53 GMT -5
I haven't read this thread in its entirety but here is my view:
I am an Innie but value the safety of children above any membership involvement. If workers are covering up childrens' sexual abuse, they should be prosecuted and sent to jail. Like right now and no mercy, only justice. If this program expose is lacking in proof, it will do more harm than good for children. Let's analyze it without bias after it comes out.
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Post by bgm on Apr 17, 2019 18:10:34 GMT -5
I haven't read this thread in its entirety but here is my view: I am an Innie but value the safety of children above any membership involvement. If workers are covering up childrens' sexual abuse, they should be prosecuted and sent to jail. Like right now and no mercy, only justice. If this program expose is lacking in proof, it will do more harm than good for children. Let's analyze it without bias after it comes out. I should be very clear on this. I will celebrate the factualness of this report or denigrate it if it is not. Wilwal is back on this one!  The truth is the truth! |
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Post by openingact34 on Apr 17, 2019 18:20:54 GMT -5
God expects us to protect the young, the weak, the old and the maim. Jesus said, whosoever offendeth any of these little ones, better that he has a milestone around his neck and dropped into the sea. Not much reward to look forward to, is it? I used to think that "little ones" meant children too. I have to give TMB's Bert credit for teaching me that I was wrong. Turns out that the major commentaries on the Bible also agree that "little ones" does not reflect children. This really fits well with the radical message of Christianity, including "first shall be last and last shall be first", etc. The most interesting implication is that the rapist could be one of the "little ones", and the victim could be the one who offends, by having a bad spirit, etc. This really sheds light onto why the overseers have acted to protect predators and so forth. In several sermons, "little ones" has been translated as "workers". |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 17, 2019 19:28:53 GMT -5
God expects us to protect the young, the weak, the old and the maim. Jesus said, whosoever offendeth any of these little ones, better that he has a milestone around his neck and dropped into the sea. Not much reward to look forward to, is it? I used to think that "little ones" meant children too. I have to give TMB's Bert credit for teaching me that I was wrong. Turns out that the major commentaries on the Bible also agree that "little ones" does not reflect children. This really fits well with the radical message of Christianity, including "first shall be last and last shall be first", etc. The most interesting implication is that the rapist could be one of the "little ones", and the victim could be the one who offends, by having a bad spirit, etc. This really sheds light onto why the overseers have acted to protect predators and so forth. In several sermons, "little ones" has been translated as "workers". It means what it says. Didn’t Jesus say if we do not become like little children...? Also didn’t he say not to refuse the little children to come to hi? Because this is what the kingdom of heaven is made of? Little children. You can separate Jesus’ meaning if you wish but he was talking about little children whether naturally or spiritually. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2019 20:19:55 GMT -5
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 17, 2019 21:03:46 GMT -5
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 17, 2019 23:22:06 GMT -5
It apparently is not available for viewing outside Australia. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 18, 2019 21:58:35 GMT -5
I used to think that "little ones" meant children too. I have to give TMB's Bert credit for teaching me that I was wrong. Turns out that the major commentaries on the Bible also agree that "little ones" does not reflect children. This really fits well with the radical message of Christianity, including "first shall be last and last shall be first", etc. The most interesting implication is that the rapist could be one of the "little ones", and the victim could be the one who offends, by having a bad spirit, etc. This really sheds light onto why the overseers have acted to protect predators and so forth. In several sermons, "little ones" has been translated as "workers". It means what it says. Didn’t Jesus say if we do not become like little children...? Also didn’t he say not to refuse the little children to come to hi? Because this is what the kingdom of heaven is made of? Little children. You can separate Jesus’ meaning if you wish but he was talking about little children whether naturally or spiritually. I’d like to add that we read in Revelations about Jesus having a double edged sword in his mouth. I believe that some things he spoke to had meaning for more then one side, such as we have in the offending these little ones. |
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Post by openingact34 on Apr 20, 2019 21:15:25 GMT -5
While we wait for the piece on 2x2's, there is also a good 60 Minutes Australia piece about CSA in another church that some 2x2 exes are involved or friendly with. |
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 20, 2019 22:29:36 GMT -5
Sadly, Nobody is exempt from being friendly or involved in some segment of society that is guilty of sexual abuses . We all bear responsibilities to protect children in whatever segment we are involved with . It is good for the exposure , not so much for “outsiders” to point at “other” groups , but for insiders to recognize and acknowledge, “we” are guilty , and are responsible to protect OUR children .
If we eliminated all “institutions “ guilty of offenses , none would remain, which makes no sense . Individuals within institutions are the offenders , and members of institutions are sometimes guilty of protecting them , but the institution itself is not really the offender ?
Educational , sports , law enforcement , religious, etc etc etc are all included. We all are “ guilty “ of being involved ,
Good to have the abuse exposed in the 2x2 church with documentaries like this (thank you) , but none of us should be too smug , and think, I am not part of a group of some sort , that ALSO has abuses within it .
Alvin
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Post by howitis on Apr 21, 2019 3:50:26 GMT -5
It apparently is not available for viewing outside Australia. If anyone outside of Australia wants to view the clip just send me a PM with your email address and I'll send it to you. Having said, it just promotes the program, refers to the church as the "the cult-like Truth Church", shows some of the victims who are speaking on the program and has some footage of a couple of workers (including the NSW Head Worker). Nice to see you there Ross.Bowden as I was wondering just how many actual victims there are and how many are there in the actual program or is there some other agenda by those who aren't actual victims, but rather want to say something against the church. What I love is the honesty and sincerity of the post by slowtosee can any of us afford to be smug, are there any that could possibly be not guilty by association....think schools, sporting groups, dance studios, drama clubs, child care centres....the list goes on and then step outside institutions.....how well do we really know individuals. One thing for sure often those that call a certain group or person to attention of others do so to avoid their own dirty works and washing being discovered. |
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Post by becareful on Apr 21, 2019 4:59:12 GMT -5
Terrible stories and brave ladies. Incredible his name can be withheld. In saying that- the re-enactment of the meetings made them seem a little more exciting than what they were ....
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 21, 2019 5:46:20 GMT -5
If anyone outside of Australia wants to view the clip just send me a PM with your email address and I'll send it to you. Having said, it just promotes the program, refers to the church as the "the cult-like Truth Church", shows some of the victims who are speaking on the program and has some footage of a couple of workers (including the NSW Head Worker). Nice to see you there Ross.Bowden as I was wondering just how many actual victims there are and how many are there in the actual program or is there some other agenda by those who aren't actual victims, but rather want to say something against the church. What I love is the honesty and sincerity of the post by slowtosee can any of us afford to be smug, are there any that could possibly be not guilty by association....think schools, sporting groups, dance studios, drama clubs, child care centres....the list goes on and then step outside institutions.....how well do we really know individuals. One thing for sure often those that call a certain group or person to attention of others do so to avoid their own dirty works and washing being discovered. They are all victims except Ross, who spoke very eloquently against the abuses by leadership and culture of cover-up. I think the program was a very accurate portrayal of the group, apart from a few minor things that only we would notice ie chapel shaped windows, a woman going in to a meeting in a sleeveless dress (not historically acceptable in regional parts of Australia). The show rightly points out we seem to have an inordinately high number of pedophiles for the size of the group, and they remain in the group and often have multiple offences recorded against them. Predators are shielded, victims shunned and threatened with excommunication. All this is true, and directly related to the historical culture of the group, which needs to change. I fear this is only the tip of the iceberg. |
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Post by ellie on Apr 21, 2019 8:02:43 GMT -5
Nice to see you there Ross.Bowden as I was wondering just how many actual victims there are and how many are there in the actual program or is there some other agenda by those who aren't actual victims, but rather want to say something against the church. What I love is the honesty and sincerity of the post by slowtosee can any of us afford to be smug, are there any that could possibly be not guilty by association....think schools, sporting groups, dance studios, drama clubs, child care centres....the list goes on and then step outside institutions.....how well do we really know individuals. One thing for sure often those that call a certain group or person to attention of others do so to avoid their own dirty works and washing being discovered. They are all victims except Ross, who spoke very eloquently against the abuses by leadership and culture of cover-up. I think the program was a very accurate portrayal of the group, apart from a few minor things that only we would notice ie chapel shaped windows, a woman going in to a meeting in a sleeveless dress (not historically accepted in regional parts of Australia). Those arches and the preacher were a bit off but mostly I thought it was a reasonable presentation of the church. There will of course be members who get stuck on little inaccuracies including the comment on women not cutting their hair. I think for a long time it was easier for many in the fellowship to ignore victims than acknowledge that such a thing could and did happen among God's people. I imagine there were also some who kept quiet to protect the image of the fellowship and the weaker members. Sex and by extension sexual abuse were taboo topics in the fellowship. No doubt that makes it more difficult for victims to speak up or be heard by others in meetings. The video did not touch on this, but, it was and likely is still seen as a good thing for meetings children to remain naive about the human body and sex. This puts the children at risk of abuse. |
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Post by snow on Apr 21, 2019 12:39:17 GMT -5
Does anyone know when it will be available to the rest of the world?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 14:01:56 GMT -5
Snow you can rest assured that as soon as the You Tube link has been established by Channel 9 in Australia it will be posted. Today being Easter Monday holiday may delay the process. Ross has indicated that it may be a couple of days before the link is available so some patience may be needed.
I would support the comments made by Elizabeth in a earlier post, especially that there is a need for the historical culture of the group, to change. If the Workers don't get that message loud and clear, I am sure they will have to suffer the consequences. In this day and age they can no longer remain clandestine as they have been in the past. It is not good enough that these things be discussed at secret Workers meetings, and even laity don't know what action if any is being taken. Our society nowadays will demand that there be transparency, that apologies and restitution, need to be made for the wrongs of the past. Alan Kitto was given the opportunity to be interviewed by 60 minutes but declined. Big mistake, will only prolong the problem.
You can't help but feel so sorry for the victims who were dealt a double blow. First of all let down by the Church, then had to suffer a second one, by being let down by the law. It is so sad to hear them say that they felt they were not worth anything. They are precious, and I know they will receive great support from people both within, and outside the 2x2 Church. Let us all hope that after the present storm is over, the sun will shine in their lives again.
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Post by howitis on Apr 21, 2019 15:59:09 GMT -5
I think this may work; www.9now.com.au/60-minutes/2019/extras/latest/april/the-truth-hurtsI am a little stuck on the inaccuracy of the how they know a certain gentleman is still attending church meetings with children present.....I personally know he is NOT!!! Such a small inaccuracy.....or a purposeful comment to condemn. All I can say is we are all victims and perpetrators....of what...thankful God knows....Rom 3:23 |
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The truth is the truth!
