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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 20:21:55 GMT -5
Review's post is fairy typical of what a number of workers have said to victims of Child Sexual Abuse over the years.
Thank you Ross! Now you can explain and substantiate your words for us. (You won't be able to because as is your norm; you throw unsubstantiated words and statements around freely.)But I'm giving you this opportunity to prove your credibility and integrity for change..... Go to it and do it! I'd LOVE you to prove me wrong! Probably because you also said this on page 1: "Or; Elizabeth is this just another opportunity you are taking to vent about the church you once belonged to? I guess your words "Sadly it sounds quite true." gives the answer? A real 'rumour mill' type statement!" The implication being Elizabeth was starting a rumor simply to vent. For having zero tolerance for CSA, you sure were quick to suspect it was just a rumor.
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Post by grieving on Nov 20, 2017 20:29:45 GMT -5
Is the perpetrator attending meetings and/or taking part in meetings? Can anyone answer that question now based on known confirmed fact (not on hearsay). I have zero tolerance of CSA. (fullstop) But I will not question my colleagues in this ministry handling of it based on hearsay. I need confirmed facts. If anyone wishes to communicate by pm that is fine. thanks I think this is very fair. No one should want condemning based on hearsay - that can be very harmful and helps nobody. I believe you that you have zero-tolerance of CSA.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2017 20:32:31 GMT -5
Why can't the church be named ? (This is stated in the article ) ?
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Post by grieving on Nov 20, 2017 20:54:47 GMT -5
On a serious note, does anyone know if:- The victims are getting supported through these days (i.e. with all this newspaper exposure they presumably with be feeling all sorts of emotions) The perpetrator and his family are being supported (this exposure will be a shock for them) . Does anyone know if anyone in the church is doing anything for them? The workers have taken appropriate steps for protection of children in their NSW church and around the coming conventions?
We don't want tragedies to any of these people surely. Pretty important thing to tackle all these in my view.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2017 21:11:23 GMT -5
Probably because you also said this on page 1: "Or; Elizabeth is this just another opportunity you are taking to vent about the church you once belonged to? I guess your words "Sadly it sounds quite true." gives the answer? A real 'rumour mill' type statement!" The implication being Elizabeth was starting a rumor simply to vent. For having zero tolerance for CSA, you sure were quick to suspect it was just a rumor. Wanna know someting; that ain't just a rumour lizzy and rossy carry a heavy burden of grievance and against our church and use any opportunity that comes along to vent it. If you don't believe me read their posts! Some light easy relaxing 'bedtime reading' ! @review005 your response speaks for itself, have you called Allan K yet or is it more important to save face here ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2017 21:12:15 GMT -5
I don't to explain or substantiate my words....because everyone who has been subjected to abuse, whether spiritual, emotional or physical, knows exactly what I mean. Some, and I emphasise, some, workers are expert at it. They demean people, question their salvation, and in some cases have abused people. They used the language that you used to Elizabeth so I merely called it out. Those who know you well on this Board know that you belittle people regularly. I wasn't wrong; An opportunity to prove he has credibility and integrity and he digs himself further into a hole of meaningless and unsubstantiated statements. Are you speaking about yourself @review005 ?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Nov 20, 2017 21:23:00 GMT -5
Why can't the church be named ? (This is stated in the article ) ? Judge's orders.
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Post by howitis on Nov 20, 2017 21:37:58 GMT -5
Yes, I believe the perpetrator still attends meetings... if not that is a recent occurrence. I also believe there is more to the story than we have access to. No I don't believe this perpetrator is a current threat to anyone, except possibly himself. That being said yes he should be put on the offenders register and have limited or supervised contact at all times where children are present.
@review005 I am saddened by your responses and I would like to suggest that for those really interested in helping these sorts of situations could we perhaps have a sister worker, not necessarily an aged one, but one young girls could trust, be the worker girls could go to in situations like this... seriously telling a man....you are joking....I honestly don't think Allan is totally suitable for such a position but alas any males that would make good overseers are generally shipped off to another state or country. However having a female worker to go to would be a vast improvement on the current situation.
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Post by friendly67 on Nov 20, 2017 21:55:00 GMT -5
Hard to name a church with no name.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 20, 2017 21:59:21 GMT -5
I presume because it would be an easy way to identify the person. The newspaper can print the initials of the person so if the church was identified people could more easily work out who it is. I presume the Defence submission which would have requested protection orders would have indicated that the size/type of church if revealed, would enable the person convicted to be easily identified. On those grounds they would have likely requested that the name of the church be suppressed - to which the Judge acceded. Other identifiers are also suppressed where Judges issue protection orders - address, employer etc. Thanks Ross.Bowden
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Post by kittens on Nov 20, 2017 22:05:08 GMT -5
Yes, I believe the perpetrator still attends meetings... if not that is a recent occurrence. I also believe there is more to the story than we have access to. No I don't believe this perpetrator is a current threat to anyone, except possibly himself. That being said yes he should be put on the offenders register and have limited or supervised contact at all times where children are present. @review005 I am saddened by your responses and I would like to suggest that for those really interested in helping these sorts of situations could we perhaps have a sister worker, not necessarily an aged one, but one young girls could trust, be the worker girls could go to in situations like this... seriously telling a man....you are joking....I honestly don't think Allan is totally suitable for such a position but alas any males that would make good overseers are generally shipped off to another state or country. However having a female worker to go to would be a vast improvement on the current situation.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 20, 2017 22:41:50 GMT -5
Yes, I believe the perpetrator still attends meetings... if not that is a recent occurrence. I also believe there is more to the story than we have access to. No I don't believe this perpetrator is a current threat to anyone, except possibly himself. That being said yes he should be put on the offenders register and have limited or supervised contact at all times where children are present. @review005 I am saddened by your responses and I would like to suggest that for those really interested in helping these sorts of situations could we perhaps have a sister worker, not necessarily an aged one, but one young girls could trust, be the worker girls could go to in situations like this... seriously telling a man....you are joking....I honestly don't think Allan is totally suitable for such a position but alas any males that would make good overseers are generally shipped off to another state or country. However having a female worker to go to would be a vast improvement on the current situation. I'm saddened by your response howitis. I have no thought whatever of speaking to victims in Australia. Are you joking or serious? You don't seem to understand the correct protocol. CSA is a criminal offence. An alleged victim is to be encouraged to go the police/law enforcement agencies. They are the correct people to receive and process allegations of CSA. I'm concerned that you would think it is a role for a sister worker. In many places a sister worker would be mandated by law to report it to the police, as it is for a brother worker or an overseer. At least one overseer has been convicted and sentenced for neglecting to report such an incident.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Nov 20, 2017 22:48:48 GMT -5
Hi howitis, Your thoughts are quite pertinent. Where abuse has occurred in a church setting (or in a church family/fellowship), there needs to be pastoral care and oversight - first priority being supporting the victims and how they wish to move forward. Ministry can't simply wash its hands and say "not our problem, go to the police". They should be saying "we are here for you, and will support (and encourage) you going to the police. What do you need?". They should also be looking at how this happened on their turf, and how to prevent it happening again. Many churches nominate an independent child safety representative - someone outside the ministry, to whom victims and their families can go if they believe the church is not handling the situation well. For example, if a minister/clergy member tried to prevent authorities being told, the family could appeal to the child safety person, who could then act as a support, and provide information to authorities on this obstruction by the relevant church. The child safety person often does not get involved; their job is to act as an independent witness to the church doing the right thing. Churches who want to do the right thing will want such a representative. Churches who do not will be concerned about this kind of exposure.
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Post by howitis on Nov 20, 2017 22:56:35 GMT -5
@review005 the last I knew you are NOT a sister worker.....I will spell it out to you.... I am saddened by your responses to others in regards to the matter at hand...it is because of the types of responses that you give this very case is a historical case....it will now impact on many other persons than if it had been able to be correctly dealt with at the time of the offences. There are now children involved that were not even born then... do you truly have no heart or care for others?
I am not saying not to report CSA to police....think about it if you are 10 years old and were molested at convention you are not very well able to go to the police station, which in Australia could be more than 20 kms away are you.....what if you can't tell your mum, wouldn't it be nice to have a friendly young sister worker to tell? Think about it...I certainly know my 10 year old self wouldn't be telling Alan Kitto not even my....oh never mind...
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Post by howitis on Nov 20, 2017 23:15:25 GMT -5
Taking up on elizabethcoleman's thoughts, perhaps if all organisations/institutions that had child memberships were mandated to have a nominated child protection officer, male and female if both sexes were involved, for every event....e.g. meeting , special meetings, individual conventions, sport training, individual events, drama club, plays etc...that was openky publicised, this would give youngsters someone to go to and act as a deterrent to perpetrators. This could well be a way of moving away from the scourge of CSA inflicting our society.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Nov 20, 2017 23:28:03 GMT -5
Taking up on elizabethcoleman 's thoughts, perhaps if all organisations/institutions that had child memberships were mandated to have a nominated child protection officer, male and female if both sexes were involved, for every event....e.g. meeting , special meetings, individual conventions, sport training, individual events, drama club, plays etc...that was openky publicised, this would give youngsters someone to go to and act as a deterrent to perpetrators. This could well be a way of moving away from the scourge of CSA inflicting our society. This is mandated in Australia through the WWVP act - Working With Vulnerable People mandatory cards are required for all people working with vulnerable persons in all organisations that provide services to vulnerable people (children, elderly, disabilities etc). Then you've got groups who claim: - they are not an organisation. - they do not specifically provide services to children.
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Post by howitis on Nov 20, 2017 23:40:57 GMT -5
Taking up on elizabethcoleman 's thoughts, perhaps if all organisations/institutions that had child memberships were mandated to have a nominated child protection officer, male and female if both sexes were involved, for every event....e.g. meeting , special meetings, individual conventions, sport training, individual events, drama club, plays etc...that was openky publicised, this would give youngsters someone to go to and act as a deterrent to perpetrators. This could well be a way of moving away from the scourge of CSA inflicting our society. This is mandated in Australia through the WWVP act - Working With Vulnerable People mandatory cards are required for all people working with vulnerable persons in all organisations that provide services to vulnerable people (children, elderly, disabilities etc). Then you've got groups who claim: - they are not an organisation. - they do not specifically provide services to children. It's not the same as having a nominated, publicised go to person at every event the organisation/institution has though....many workers have WWC cards but there is no publicised child safety officer at many events of different organisations/institutions....this could be easily implemented
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Nov 21, 2017 0:02:13 GMT -5
howitis, I get what you're saying. I wish it were that easy. All organisations should do this, but mandating it would be an administrative and legal nightmare. Groups such as the Two-by-Twos would still probably fly under the radar. Sadly a lot of abuse occurs through opportunism and grooming much closer to home. Predators are exceptional at making themselves appear trustworthy and finding their way around child safety laws. We all need to keep asking ourselves: how could the cases we know about have been prevented? What do we learn from those circumstances? Because legal and administrative policies can't solve everything, we need to keep pushing within our own backyards/organisations for accountability and advertised procedures. Demanding support and change from our own organisations' leaderships. You're asking all the right questions - keep pushing for change everywhere! (ignore the peanut gallery).
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Post by howitis on Nov 21, 2017 0:19:09 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman no not even they can fly under the radar they are a registered entity for insurance purposes....declarations of all gatherings and having a nominated person for each would be a requirement of regustration...this won't by any means stop perpetrators but it would let them know the victims now have advocates....this could well be a deterrent. People like @review005 who talk about people like me making accusations do nothing for themselves or the ministry they represent.
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Post by howitis on Nov 21, 2017 0:35:23 GMT -5
@review005 the last I knew you are NOT a sister worker.....I will spell it out to you.... I am saddened by your responses to others in regards to the matter at hand...it is because of the types of responses that you give this very case is a historical case....it will now impact on many other persons than if it had been able to be correctly dealt with at the time of the offences. There are now children involved that were not even born then... do you truly have no heart or care for others? I am not saying not to report CSA to police....think about it if you are 10 years old and were molested at convention you are not very well able to go to the police station, which in Australia could be more than 20 kms away are you.....what if you can't tell your mum, wouldn't it be nice to have a friendly young sister worker to tell? Think about it...I certainly know my 10 year old self wouldn't be telling Alan Kitto not even my....oh never mind... Well I'd you have to say with the jumbled and baseless accusations you have made I'd wonder if you no heart or case for others? What on earth are going on about and what is the basis for your accusations? @review005 You either know nothing about The situation or more than you're letting on OR you actually don't really care whichever it is you're being a very poor example of the ministry you pretend to represent
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 21, 2017 0:37:57 GMT -5
All of the above as far as I know A person who is professing and taking part in meetings was charged with many charges of child sexual assault including rape of a girl under 16 years old. In his trial he blamed the church for not supervising the children, he blamed his mother for not allowing him to have sex education. He pleaded guilty and did not receive a jail sentence and was told by the judge he was an upstanding citizen. Are these the confirmed and 100% correct details?What sentence did he receive? That's what media reports say.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 21, 2017 0:54:58 GMT -5
hint: try changing an s for an r in one word! So I follow your instructions and I get.... "Well I'd you have to sray with the jumbled and baseless accusations you have made I'd wonder if you no heart or case care for others That doesn't work....
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 21, 2017 1:17:35 GMT -5
Review's input is disgusting. It seems his true MISSION in life is to deflect the heat onto others. What a sick person he has become.
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Post by Grant on Nov 21, 2017 2:17:55 GMT -5
In all fairness review005 did say 3 or so years ago that he had taken the concerns of sexual abuse complaints on this board to the overseer and played a part in putting together some protocol or training which may have been the draft which was mentioned in an earlier post, for the workers in regards to dealing with childhood sexual abuse in NZ.
They got help from the police and some qualified person. So in all fairness review005 has taken the concerns of those on this board and done some work on designing something for the workers.
I'm not sure why he doesn't say it like he did a few years ago. Of course it is not known what has been done since then or if it's been swept under the carpet. The matter should be seen as serious enough for him to post it on this board and not keep it quiet. I'm quite sure that most churches would be only too happy to share that information with others.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 21, 2017 3:15:14 GMT -5
Review's input is disgusting. It seems his true MISSION in life is to deflect the heat onto others. What a sick person he has become. Thank you; I consider a post like this a compliment When posted by a person of your integrity; one who makes lots of foolish and also some pretty disgusting and crude posts on TMB. (If your sister and deceased parents knew??? All good people, your deceased Uncle?) You ain't fooling nobody; except perhaps yourself. thanks! More personal attacks rather than face the issue of rape. You have fought back against people before who have made allegations of sexual misconduct. A certain weirdo from Dannevirke springs to mind. And then there is the panty pincher who has a Sunday morning meeting in his home. You mix with some disgusting people.
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Post by howitis on Nov 21, 2017 5:21:18 GMT -5
@review005 the last I knew you are NOT a sister worker.....I will spell it out to you.... I am saddened by your responses to others in regards to the matter at hand...it is because of the types of responses that you give this very case is a historical case....it will now impact on many other persons than if it had been able to be correctly dealt with at the time of the offences. There are now children involved that were not even born then... do you truly have no heart or care for others? I am not saying not to report CSA to police....think about it if you are 10 years old and were molested at convention you are not very well able to go to the police station, which in Australia could be more than 20 kms away are you.....what if you can't tell your mum, wouldn't it be nice to have a friendly young sister worker to tell? Think about it...I certainly know my 10 year old self wouldn't be telling Alan Kitto not even my....oh never mind... Well I'd you have to say with the jumbled and baseless accusations you have made I'd wonder if you no heart or case for others? What on earth are going on about and what is the basis for your accusations? @review005 Please tell me where I have made baseless AND jumbled accusations Thankyou
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Post by Gene on Nov 21, 2017 5:49:28 GMT -5
Review005, are you in agreement with the judge's decision in this case?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Nov 21, 2017 6:27:04 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman no not even they can fly under the radar they are a registered entity for insurance purposes....declarations of all gatherings and having a nominated person for each would be a requirement of regustration...this won't by any means stop perpetrators but it would let them know the victims now have advocates....this could well be a deterrent. People like @review005 who talk about people like me making accusations do nothing for themselves or the ministry they represent. Yes, it definitely could be a deterrent. In the absence of it being mandated at present, though, is there anything to stop the Friends nominating their own child-safe advocates in various areas? Wings websites (or other places online) have some excellent source material for briefing/training on how to educate and respond to CSA allegations. But more importantly, put protocols in place for prevention! Including the participation of known offenders in group gatherings. It really needs to be done by the people, for the people (waxing lyrical here), but seriously, those in the fellowship are the only ones who can make serious and good change for the fellowship in this regard. Perhaps some (I'm talking to all you friendlies on here now) could find people in their own area with some expertise or experience in these matters ie. many probably have training and clearances through their own workplaces. Just some food for thought. We're all responsible to care for each other and look out for each other in our own little corner of the world. Get the mums (moms) and dads having this conversation.
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