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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2017 12:43:55 GMT -5
Snow - they were published in a major Australian newspaper yesterday. See the pictures of the relevant pages that Elizabeth Coleman posted above. Thank you kittens. I missed that post somehow. Am I right to say this was a member of the 2x2 but not a worker?
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2017 12:54:06 GMT -5
Yes, I believe the perpetrator still attends meetings... if not that is a recent occurrence. I also believe there is more to the story than we have access to. No I don't believe this perpetrator is a current threat to anyone, except possibly himself. That being said yes he should be put on the offenders register and have limited or supervised contact at all times where children are present. @review005 I am saddened by your responses and I would like to suggest that for those really interested in helping these sorts of situations could we perhaps have a sister worker, not necessarily an aged one, but one young girls could trust, be the worker girls could go to in situations like this... seriously telling a man....you are joking....I honestly don't think Allan is totally suitable for such a position but alas any males that would make good overseers are generally shipped off to another state or country. However having a female worker to go to would be a vast improvement on the current situation. I'm saddened by your response howitis. I have no thought whatever of speaking to victims in Australia. Are you joking or serious? You don't seem to understand the correct protocol. CSA is a criminal offence. An alleged victim is to be encouraged to go the police/law enforcement agencies. They are the correct people to receive and process allegations of CSA. I'm concerned that you would think it is a role for a sister worker. Review, as someone that is a survivor of sexual abuse, I agree with howitis, but only for the initial reporting. Going to a male worker would be very traumatic given the subject matter and the age of the kids we are talking about here. A sister worker that was trained in handling the initial report with kindness and caring would be a wonderful asset I believe. Of course that sister worker would need to go to the authorities with it immediately and likely the overseer should also be brought into it, but initially it would take a lot of the stress out of talking about it, if a sister worker was the first contact. Just something to think about from someone who has gone through it at a young age.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2017 13:48:47 GMT -5
Actually, a sister worker isn't even needed but a person within the friends that would be willing to take a course in child safety and how to handle first contacts for csa would work too. Several women could be the go to first contact in different areas. That woman would listen, be a non threatening entity that would have training in what not to do or say that might lead the child, and also know who to contact immediately for this type of offence. But I think it would be a lot less stressful for the child. Now I would take it a step further and have either brother workers or men among the friends that would also be trained in first contact, because as we know, not all csa involves girls, but also boys. They would likely be far more comfortable telling another man for the same reasons girls would be more comfortable telling a woman. Just some ideas.
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Post by fixit on Nov 21, 2017 13:50:54 GMT -5
We all need to keep asking ourselves: how could the cases we know about have been prevented? What do we learn from those circumstances? After reading @review005's responses on this thread I'm wondering: Does @review005 have any suggestions for how the cases we know about could have been prevented?
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Post by howitis on Nov 21, 2017 16:37:35 GMT -5
Thanks xna funny not funny @ipsedixit. This is all too sad.....if only it would have been dealt with many years ago there would be far fewer people hurting now. The perpetrator has also carried this for a long time trying to build a good reputation from what he knew he did wrong and now it is all crashing down .. how much easier would it have been if this had been dealt with years ago....sweeping CSA, just like any other crime, under the mat hurts more people in the end...
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Post by fixit on Nov 21, 2017 16:47:45 GMT -5
@review005 I recommend you put your smartphone and laptop away at least for a few days.
Enjoy this lovely sunny day and enjoy Preps and convention.
You'll feel better for being offline for awhile.
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Post by xna on Nov 21, 2017 17:12:25 GMT -5
Dubbo child sex offender's sentence has Luke Foley calling for appeal"NSW Attorney-General Mark Speakman is expected to outline his actions in respect of a Dubbo-based child sex offender on Tuesday afternoon.
It comes hours after the NSW opposition demanded the Attorney-General move immediately and lodge an appeal against the sentencing of a child sex offender in Dubbo.
The convicted paedophile – known only as TM because of a suppression order that is reportedly in place – received a two–year suspended jail sentence, despite being found guilty of ten charges of historic child sex abuse, a Sydney newspaper reported."
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Post by kittens on Nov 21, 2017 19:12:30 GMT -5
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Post by howitis on Nov 21, 2017 19:24:40 GMT -5
Hi kittens thank you for your post which I obviously mostly agree with. The reason I say I believe this particular perpetrator is mostly a threat to himself is because I am relatively aware of this case....Yes I've said nothing until there were verified reports, but this is an important part of the process. Time will tell of my accuracy of judgement on this one....sorry I can't say more.
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Post by fixit on Nov 21, 2017 19:42:35 GMT -5
I hate to say this about my own church but I am hoping the authorities will swoop in and drag everything out which has been swept under the carpet for so long and the workers (and the friends) will be forced to be open and acknowledge everything that has happened in the past. It is disappointing but I too see no other way of rooting out this great evil.
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Post by howitis on Nov 21, 2017 19:50:22 GMT -5
I notice too if one Google's this case some articles have been removed by legal request due to possible defamation....could all please be careful when mentioning this case as wrongful quotes could be seen as disadvantageous for any further legal processes that may ensue... thanks in advance.
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Post by Gene on Nov 21, 2017 19:54:41 GMT -5
Review005, are you in agreement with the judge's decision in this case? Are you suggest I am? Are you? Do you know anyone that is? I'm suggesting nothing of the kind. I'm asking a simple question. A yes / no question, at that, but feel free to answer however you wish. The reason I ask is simple as well: Based on your posts on this thread, I'm uncertain what your view is of the judgement. I welcome you to clarify your view - that's really all I'm going for. No, I am not in agreement of the judge's decision. Yes, I suspect the perpetrator and those in his camp are in agreement with the judge's decision.
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Post by howitis on Nov 21, 2017 21:11:09 GMT -5
I'm suggesting nothing of the kind. I'm asking a simple question. A yes / no question, at that, but feel free to answer however you wish. The reason I ask is simple as well: Based on your posts on this thread, I'm uncertain what your view is of the judgement. I welcome you to clarify your view - that's really all I'm going for. No, I am not in agreement of the judge's decision. Yes, I suspect the perpetrator and those in his camp are in agreement with the judge's decision. Good I'm glad you are suggesting nothing of the kind! Obviously it is an unambiguous NO! I have zero tolerance for CSA. (fullstop) It is a criminal offence and should be dealt with according the the law statues of the country. (fullstop) So now @review005 would you please be gracious and state what my jumbled and baseless accusations are? Thank you
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Post by Gene on Nov 21, 2017 21:11:47 GMT -5
I'm suggesting nothing of the kind. I'm asking a simple question. A yes / no question, at that, but feel free to answer however you wish. The reason I ask is simple as well: Based on your posts on this thread, I'm uncertain what your view is of the judgement. I welcome you to clarify your view - that's really all I'm going for. No, I am not in agreement of the judge's decision. Yes, I suspect the perpetrator and those in his camp are in agreement with the judge's decision. Good I'm glad you are suggesting nothing of the kind! Obviously it is an unambiguous NO! I have zero tolerance for CSA. (fullstop) It is a criminal offence and should be dealt with according the the law statues of the country. (fullstop) Glad to hear that. Thanks. Does the judge's decision put the church in a bit of a quandary as to what to do with the guy? I mean, given that the judge put a clamp-down on disclosing who the perpetrator is, can the church, within the law, and knowing who the perpetrator is, and knowing that he's confessed to the sin, do anything to limit his access to young'uns? Seems like the church is rather hog-tied. What's your point of view on what the church can do, legally?
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Post by Gene on Nov 21, 2017 21:24:27 GMT -5
Good I'm glad you are suggesting nothing of the kind! Obviously it is an unambiguous NO! I have zero tolerance for CSA. (fullstop) It is a criminal offence and should be dealt with according the the law statues of the country. (fullstop) Glad to hear that. Thanks. Does the judge's decision put the church in a bit of a quandary as to what to do with the guy? I mean, given that the judge put a clamp-down on disclosing who the perpetrator is, can the church, within the law, and knowing who the perpetrator is, and knowing that he's confessed to the sin, do anything to limit his access to young'uns? Seems like the church is rather hog-tied. What's your point of view on what the church can do, legally? PS - If I could afford the trip and the time off, I would absolutely love to spend a week with you at convention preps.
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Post by howitis on Nov 21, 2017 21:40:52 GMT -5
So now @review005 would you please be gracious and state what my jumbled and baseless accusations are? Thank you The main one was where you accused me of having no feeling for victims and children then this one: .I will spell it out to you.... I am saddened by your responses to others in regards to the matter at hand...it is because of the types of responses that you give this very case is a historical case....it will now impact on many other persons than if it had been able to be correctly dealt with at the time of the offences. There are now children involved that were not even born then... do you truly have no heart or care for others? Thank you @review005 now would you kindly go back over your posts since the beginning of this thread and read them, think carefully about how you have responded to individuals like Ross.Bowden and others, yes we are all aware that you and Ross.Bowden are often in disagreement however your responses equate almost as from one who feels that there has been no wrong doing. This is an important issue for all and it needs to be addressed in a sensible and fair manner.
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Post by Grant on Nov 21, 2017 21:45:43 GMT -5
Review005, most people who have been sexually abused do not report it to the police? What does your church guidelines have in cases like this?
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Post by Gene on Nov 21, 2017 21:58:40 GMT -5
Glad to hear that. Thanks. Does the judge's decision put the church in a bit of a quandary as to what to do with the guy? Not in my mind, nor the way it is handled where I live and work! I don't know the workers or what happens in his jurisdiction
I mean, given that the judge put a clamp-down on disclosing who the perpetrator is, can the church, within the law, and knowing who the perpetrator is, and knowing that he's confessed to the sin, do anything to limit his access to young'uns? Seems like the church is rather hog-tied. I would think what you present is rather hypothetical! EVERYONE will know who he is! I know what I'd be recommending!
What's your point of view on what the church can do, legally? Isn't it a no brainer? He's been convicted for CSA. Where do you see the problem? I fail to see how they are hog tied or sow tied or tongue tied or anything tied? So he's banned from fellowship?
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Post by fixit on Nov 21, 2017 22:58:27 GMT -5
@review005 you are typically extremely defensive of anyone posting CSA concerns on TMB.
Anyone who has been abused would take one look at your defensive attitude then crawl right back into their shell.
If you do in fact take an attitude of zero tolerance to CSA you would do well to have more tolerance towards those who are working to awaken the church to the problem.
Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
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Post by howitis on Nov 21, 2017 23:17:21 GMT -5
@review005 you are typically extremely defensive of anyone posting CSA concerns on TMB. Anyone who has been abused would take one look at your defensive attitude then crawl right back into their shell. If you do in fact take an attitude of zero tolerance to CSA you would do well to have more tolerance towards those who are working to awaken the church to the problem. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Thank you fixit, well said, it has been fully established that in this particular case it is not rumour mongering as @review005 put it....and now it's turned into a much larger affair than many thought it would be. We now need to see what support has been and can be put into place for both victims and perpetrators and their families so that all can move forward.
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Post by fixit on Nov 22, 2017 0:43:13 GMT -5
@review005: How was the alleged "rumour mill" posting different from the newspaper reports? Elisabeth Coleman and continuer, Appreciate your comments but need to ask you: Are these the confirmed and 100% correct details that you base your comments on?
"A person who is professing and taking part in meetings was charged with many charges of child sexual assault including rape of a girl under 16 years old. In his trial he blamed the church for not supervising the children, he blamed his mother for not allowing him to have sex education. He pleaded guilty and did not receive a jail sentence and was told by the judge he was an upstanding citizen. What sentence did he receive?"Or; Elizabeth is this just another opportunity you are taking to vent about the church you once belonged to? I guess your words "Sadly it sounds quite true." gives the answer? A real 'rumour mill' type statement! Ha ha, Elizabeth! Appreciate your 'beating around the bush', more of your venting... and confirming that indeed your post was a rumour mill post! Meanwhile I'll wait until confirmed correct details come hand! You'll see Scott's post above regarding that!
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Post by fixit on Nov 22, 2017 0:51:24 GMT -5
This thread reminds me of another thread where our resident worker blew smoke... "....fully looked into and dealt with according to standards that are right in the sight of God and man" Yeah, right! In fact, it took 18 pages of a TMB thread before it was fully looked into and appropriate action was taken. professing.proboards.com/thread/19137/nz-issueThe issue was resolved a couple of months later... professing.proboards.com/thread/19436
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Post by kittens on Nov 22, 2017 1:39:39 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 1:47:19 GMT -5
it is getting a bit silly...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 6:06:45 GMT -5
Thank you Ross! Now you can explain and substantiate your words for us. (You won't be able to because as is your norm; you throw unsubstantiated words and statements around freely.)But I'm giving you this opportunity to prove your credibility and integrity for change..... Go to it and do it! I'd LOVE you to prove me wrong! Probably because you also said this on page 1: "Or; Elizabeth is this just another opportunity you are taking to vent about the church you once belonged to? I guess your words "Sadly it sounds quite true." gives the answer? A real 'rumour mill' type statement!" The implication being Elizabeth was starting a rumor simply to vent. For having zero tolerance for CSA, you sure were quick to suspect it was just a rumor. Wishful thinking, perhaps??
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 6:34:16 GMT -5
@review005 you are typically extremely defensive of anyone posting CSA concerns on TMB. Anyone who has been abused would take one look at your defensive attitude then crawl right back into their shell. If you do in fact take an attitude of zero tolerance to CSA you would do well to have more tolerance towards those who are working to awaken the church to the problem. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Fixit you play the games you do on TMB and then expect me to take notice of what you post? Get real! You are presently a joke. Post leaving out all your nonsense and I'll certainly start taking notice of what you have to say. This is not a game by any standards, CSA is an act that can seriously ruin the lives of folks for ever. It should be taken seriously and dealt with seriously,with no holds barred , no favours or coverups granted.An abuser is an abuser irrespective of position held.The focus and concentration should be on the abused not the protection of the abuser.That is my opinion anyway.Abusers are like wolves in sheep's clothing as a disguise.
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Post by Gene on Nov 22, 2017 7:01:52 GMT -5
So he's banned from fellowship? What do you mean banned from fellowship?!! For the rest of his life? or what! He would be banned for life for unsupervised access to young people/children. That is is black and white absolute.The other stuff? I've learnt that each case needs to be dealt with according to it's merits (demerits in this instance!) If we believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and we see definite sign of regret and repentance then......? I know nothing more than what has appeared in the newspaper clippings. I would make a fool of myself to pronounce a public judgement based on that wouldn't I? But I have zero tolerance for CSA and I consider the safety of our young people paramount and it would be around those parameters that I'd be 'scratching my head', praying and seeking to decide on the right thing to do in this particular instance.
But be assured based on what I read in those article I'd be taking a 'pretty dim view' of it all! Howzat? Gene; I enjoy dialogue with you! Glad to read your points I highlighted above, Review. I hope your colleagues "in charge" in the perpetrator's area hold the same view, and I expect they do. Do you happen to know whether they do?
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Post by kittens on Nov 22, 2017 15:07:11 GMT -5
Not handing down a sentence which anywhere near fitted the crime, has done more good than was realised. Because of him this case is now world wide news - in newspapers and has been discussed on John Laws talkback radio. People are wanting to know why the 'church' allowed TM to keep attending and being around young children - even though none of them know which church it is. When the no-naming ban is lifted, the 'name' of the church will come out in the open. The problem is no one will know who they are talking about even if they know some of the friends because no one can agree on a name. I hate to say this about my own church but I am hoping the authorities will swoop in and drag everything out which has been swept under the carpet for so long and the workers (and the friends) will be forced to be open and acknowledge everything that has happened in the past. Unlike Howitis, who doesn't think TM is a risk to anyone anymore except himself, I disagree. Anyone who has been or has the tendencies to be, a paedophile and/or rapist will always have those tendencies and given the opportunity will act on them. I know there are paedophiles in every church, every organisation and every walk of life but I have worked with, lived with and mixed with a large variety of 'outsiders'. I know more outsiders than I do 'Friends" and yet I know more paedophiles amongst the 'Friends and workers' than I do amongst outsiders. The ratios are horrifying. 'Outsiders' are more willing to talk about this sort of thing even if it is in their own family, so if it did happen you would be more likely to know about it.
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