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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 11, 2017 5:47:47 GMT -5
John Long! He was there from the start, John Hardie was NOT there from the beginning.... So, the beginning was before John Hardie entered the work and after John Long met William Irvine. The beginning. The picture I posted must be wrong as well, according to nathan  |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 11, 2017 7:42:29 GMT -5
nathan I am talking about your statement about John Hardie ! Have a look at some old photos ! There are photos of William Irvine and John Hardie together and you try to tell us he wasn't there from the beginning ! Ros - you'll need to explain to Nate that 1900 (when John Hardie was listed as worker) comes before 1901 (when Eddie Cooney joined up with the 2x2's). They certainly dressed up for bike trips in those days! They sure did ! Great old photo though  |
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Post by nathan on Sept 11, 2017 7:43:30 GMT -5
nathan I am talking about your statement about John Hardie ! Have a look at some old photos ! There are photos of William Irvine and John Hardie together and you try to tell us he wasn't there from the beginning ! Ros - you'll need to explain to Nate that 1900 (when John Hardie was listed as worker) comes before 1901 (when Eddie Cooney joined up with the 2x2's). They certainly dressed up for bike trips in those days! ~~ John Long Journal: Edward Cooney met William Irvine in 1/1898.
In the little town of Borrisokane there is a small Methodist Church, where met a little assembly of Godly believers, who loved to see souls saved; and prayed earnestly for a Revival. My former superintendent, S.W.H. Nesbitt, who left Roscrea, and was stationed at that time in Borrisokane.
A Christian commercial traveler, named Edward Cooney, during his business tours, met some of the young converts and being impressed with the genuineness of their testimony was resolved to meet and have an interview with William Irvine. That meeting was a loving one and meant much for the Kingdom of God. How careful we should be regarding first impressions; as they have real and lasting effects the memory of which is not easily erased. A good deal of opposition arose at that time because William Irvine spoke with great authority against the unfaithfulness of the clergy; many threw on the brake, but he refused to be corrected by them believing that God had raised him up to thresh the mountains. The strain of continuous ministry; also the care and charge of young converts affected much the physical health of William Irvine; he was known to preach for five hours, all the while holding the attention of his audience. Concerning the principals of the Doctrine of Christ, he was sound. He believed in the fall of man, in the Atonement, in the Trinity, in the Divinity of our Lord, in the immortality of the soul, in the resurrection of the body, the inspiration of the Bible, in Heaven for the saved, and in Hell for the lost. He believed in a personal Devil, the enemy of God and man. He believed and taught Repentance and that every person can be saved and know it, and that the conditions of Salvation were "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9. He taught that every saved soul is indwelt by the Spirit of Christ; and that the life of Jesus, is the pattern for everyone to imitate and follow; and that the life of forsaking all for Christ's sake was the best to live. The fruits of that teaching resulted in farmers, shop keepers, domestic servants, school teachers, police, soldiers, and persons of every occupation forsaking all that they had to follow Jesus. Matthew chapter 10 study: William Irvine (Faith Mission) met Edward Cooney, who later became one of prominent members of the 2x2 workers church. Conversion of John Long going Faith Lines. ~~ 4/ 1898: At that time William Irvine (Faith Mission worker), Fred Hughes (Faith Mission preacher worker) and I (John Long/Methodist) went to Kilkee, where we had a mission in the Methodist Church; also we had the fellowship of W.B. Merrick, my superintendent in the colportage work. ~~ 7/ 1898: While in Kilkee we had a Bible reading on Matthew 10. It was that Bible reading set me first thinking about going on Faith Lines. It was a very remarkable coincident that Edward Cooney turned up next day, for he very soon after gave up a very good situation, and distributed thirteen hundred pounds to the poor, and went fully on the Lord's work, and became a great advocate of preachers going without a stated salary.
However, as a guide to preachers, Matthew 10 should only be taken in conjunction with the other Scriptures and Acts of the Apostles after Pentecost. This is a very important point lest young preachers should attempt that which our Lord never meant and run into catastrophe; as in Matthew 10, that tour was only for a few days, to meet a need and prepare the way for His visit to them. Vs. 10-25. In Matthew 10 they were not to go to the Gentiles, nor to the Samaritans; after Pentecost they were to be "Witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in Judea and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." Acts 1:8. In Matthew 10 they were to take neither gold, silver, or brass, in their purses nor any luggage; after Pentecost they used money, and carried necessary luggage. Acts 4:34-35; 21:15; 28:30-31. 1 Corinthians 9:14. These words "As ye go preach" gave rise to the name "Go-Preacher." Indeed "Apostle" should be the name instead of "Missionary" for it is mentioned as one of the gifts of our risen Lord, Ephesians 4:11. The powerful principal of William Irvine's way of discipline; also the standard of obedience, self denial and liberty, imitating the pattern as seen in Jesus; were sure to clash with the ritual and rules of ecclesiastical ministry; and the opposition to his method became more and more manifest every day; so that it meant either a reformation with the one, or a separation by the other. Irvine being a man of foresight, and feeling the tremendous responsibility of being a reformer and leader against his will, made him give a soul touching and loving address; and left the Conference with a broken Spirit, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief, like His Master. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 11, 2017 17:42:42 GMT -5
Ros - you'll need to explain to Nate that 1900 (when John Hardie was listed as worker) comes before 1901 (when Eddie Cooney joined up with the 2x2's). They certainly dressed up for bike trips in those days! ~~ John Long Journal: Edward Cooney met William Irvine in 1/1898.
In the little town of Borrisokane there is a small Methodist Church, where met a little assembly of Godly believers, who loved to see souls saved; and prayed earnestly for a Revival. My former superintendent, S.W.H. Nesbitt, who left Roscrea, and was stationed at that time in Borrisokane.
A Christian commercial traveler, named Edward Cooney, during his business tours, met some of the young converts and being impressed with the genuineness of their testimony was resolved to meet and have an interview with William Irvine. That meeting was a loving one and meant much for the Kingdom of God. How careful we should be regarding first impressions; as they have real and lasting effects the memory of which is not easily erased. A good deal of opposition arose at that time because William Irvine spoke with great authority against the unfaithfulness of the clergy; many threw on the brake, but he refused to be corrected by them believing that God had raised him up to thresh the mountains. The strain of continuous ministry; also the care and charge of young converts affected much the physical health of William Irvine; he was known to preach for five hours, all the while holding the attention of his audience. Concerning the principals of the Doctrine of Christ, he was sound. He believed in the fall of man, in the Atonement, in the Trinity, in the Divinity of our Lord, in the immortality of the soul, in the resurrection of the body, the inspiration of the Bible, in Heaven for the saved, and in Hell for the lost. He believed in a personal Devil, the enemy of God and man. He believed and taught Repentance and that every person can be saved and know it, and that the conditions of Salvation were "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9. He taught that every saved soul is indwelt by the Spirit of Christ; and that the life of Jesus, is the pattern for everyone to imitate and follow; and that the life of forsaking all for Christ's sake was the best to live. The fruits of that teaching resulted in farmers, shop keepers, domestic servants, school teachers, police, soldiers, and persons of every occupation forsaking all that they had to follow Jesus. Matthew chapter 10 study: William Irvine (Faith Mission) met Edward Cooney, who later became one of prominent members of the 2x2 workers church. Conversion of John Long going Faith Lines. ~~ 4/ 1898: At that time William Irvine (Faith Mission worker), Fred Hughes (Faith Mission preacher worker) and I (John Long/Methodist) went to Kilkee, where we had a mission in the Methodist Church; also we had the fellowship of W.B. Merrick, my superintendent in the colportage work. ~~ 7/ 1898: While in Kilkee we had a Bible reading on Matthew 10. It was that Bible reading set me first thinking about going on Faith Lines. It was a very remarkable coincident that Edward Cooney turned up next day, for he very soon after gave up a very good situation, and distributed thirteen hundred pounds to the poor, and went fully on the Lord's work, and became a great advocate of preachers going without a stated salary.
However, as a guide to preachers, Matthew 10 should only be taken in conjunction with the other Scriptures and Acts of the Apostles after Pentecost. This is a very important point lest young preachers should attempt that which our Lord never meant and run into catastrophe; as in Matthew 10, that tour was only for a few days, to meet a need and prepare the way for His visit to them. Vs. 10-25. In Matthew 10 they were not to go to the Gentiles, nor to the Samaritans; after Pentecost they were to be "Witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in Judea and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." Acts 1:8. In Matthew 10 they were to take neither gold, silver, or brass, in their purses nor any luggage; after Pentecost they used money, and carried necessary luggage. Acts 4:34-35; 21:15; 28:30-31. 1 Corinthians 9:14. These words "As ye go preach" gave rise to the name "Go-Preacher." Indeed "Apostle" should be the name instead of "Missionary" for it is mentioned as one of the gifts of our risen Lord, Ephesians 4:11. The powerful principal of William Irvine's way of discipline; also the standard of obedience, self denial and liberty, imitating the pattern as seen in Jesus; were sure to clash with the ritual and rules of ecclesiastical ministry; and the opposition to his method became more and more manifest every day; so that it meant either a reformation with the one, or a separation by the other. Irvine being a man of foresight, and feeling the tremendous responsibility of being a reformer and leader against his will, made him give a soul touching and loving address; and left the Conference with a broken Spirit, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief, like His Master. So what is your point nathan ? |
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 11, 2017 18:41:45 GMT -5
I hold to the 1897 date that John Long said was when it began. John Long wrote:
“…having to leave the Go Preacher fellowship; which God used me so much in, FROM ITS BEGINNING, ten years ago."
(John Long's Journal, June, 1907) [Ten years ago = 1897]
Wm Irvine started his 2x2 ministry in 1897.
The first churches in homes began around 1902.
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Post by nathan on Sept 11, 2017 19:41:27 GMT -5
I hold to the 1897 date that John Long said was when it began. John Long wrote:“…having to leave the Go Preacher fellowship; which God used me so much in, FROM ITS BEGINNING, ten years ago." (John Long's Journal, June, 1907) [Ten years ago = 1897] Wm Irvine started his 2x2 ministry in 1897. The first churches in homes began around 1902.
William Irvine recruited John Long to join the Faith Mission pilgrim/preacher in 1898 after he/William Irvine (a Faith Mission), and his (Faith Mission) companion Fred Hughes and John Long (a Methodist) studied Matthew 10 together.....
John Long became a Faith Mission Prayer union member in 1898-1915 through William Irvine preaching. John Long went preaching Faith line with William Irvine in 1898.
There was NO Go-preachers 2x2 friends and workers in 1897. I think John Long was getting senile about him starting with William Irvine to form 2x2 friends and workers church starting in 1897. There were NO 2x2 worker or friend in 1897.
In 1898 William Irvine was a Faith Mission preacher, and his companion was Fred Hughes who was a Faith Mission preacher also.... NOT John Long. William Irvine was still a full time Faith Mission preacher in 1898. So, there were no friend or 2x2 workers in 1897.
Sorry, John Long.... This is recorded in your Journal so your 1897 starting date for you and William Irvine, the founder of the 2x2 sect is Incorrect!
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 11, 2017 20:25:36 GMT -5
I've thought a lot about it, and researched it thoroughly and I'm totally satisfied John Long knew what he was talking about as to when the 2x2 Sect began. You don't seem to know what you're talking about and you can't even get the pieces to fit your theory, and so you force them to fit by calling John Long senile. That's really smart of you  . It affects the credibility of your storyline. You're the one who can't reconcile the issues/questions that appear to bother you. They didn't appear to be unresolved matters to JL. They don't make a hill of beans of difference to my research. JL was there in the beginning and he wrote about what he saw going on and experienced. He kept records of dates in his Bible...he didn't pull them out of thin air years afterwards. |
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Post by nathan on Sept 11, 2017 20:57:19 GMT -5
I've thought a lot about it, and researched it thoroughly and I'm totally satisfied John Long knew what he was talking about as to when the 2x2 Sect began. You don't seem to know what you're talking about and you can't even get the pieces to fit your theory, and so you force them to fit by calling John Long senile. That's really smart of you . It affects the credibility of your storyline. You're the one who can't reconcile the issues/questions that appear to bother you. They didn't appear to be unresolved matters to JL. They don't make a hill of beans of difference to my research. JL was there in the beginning and he wrote about what he saw going on and experienced. He kept records of dates in his Bible...he didn't pull them out of thin air years afterwards. If more came in than necessary, learning to abound; if less, learning to suffer lack. I started on a Matthew Ten walking tour from Roscrea to Rathmolyon in County Meath, with the intention of speaking to every person I met about Christ. This was too much for any person to undertake, as some persons were easier reached than others. However the cross was in it, and the issues and results were good, for nearly every walking tour of that kind led on to definite mission work, and pioneered the way for others afterwards. During that tour I began conversation by personal testimony, asking them would they like to hear what God hath done for my soul? Although I resigned the Colportage work and the salary, I did not as yet cease to be a member of the Methodist Church. ~~ 2/ 1899: Leaving Rathmolyon, I took another short walking tour into Dublin City. While there I met with an old companion Walter Bradley, from Kilrush, a candidate for the Methodist ministry. I am sure a young man would be better fitted for the Lord's work by the experience of four years active service, learning at the feet of Jesus, than four years in college, coming out having to use a manuscript and not able to preach by promptings as the Holy Spirit gives utterance. It’s time that the churches waked up to the fact that it’s not Gold and College that fits for Gospel ministry, but Conversion and the Holy Spirit, 1 Peter 4:11; Acts 20:28. ~~ 3/ 1899: Irvine Weir and George Walker who became two prominent 2x2 workers group/church. On my return journey, I spent another week in Dublin City, and met with Irvine Weir, George Walker, Albert Quinn, and others who soon afterwards gave up their situations to go fully on the Lord's work. ~~ 4/1899: Jack Carroll, who later became another prominent Overseer 2x2 worker church From Dublin I returned again to the South, and helped at a mission in Shinrone. About that time, other features of the Lord's work presented themselves; unto them I said, "No," being in the will of God. The Methodist asked me to undertake an evangelistic campaign in a tent during the summer months in the City. Two ladies proposed to send me to D. L. Moody's training school in Chicago. Pastor Harpur asked me to join his band for street preaching in the Southern Counties. If I had got these chances at the beginning of my experience, I might have accepted the m; but having been so clearly led out on Faith Lines, I was afraid of turning aside to the right hand or to the left. Owing to the growing difficulties of getting halls and churches for Gospel missions, Jack Carroll from Nenagh, organised the building of a Wooden Hall, for itinerating mission work; and in one year there were at least dozen built in the British Isles. They were very laborious but a great invention and the mission work done in them was very successful and fruitful as persons came to them who would not attend any place of worship. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 11, 2017 21:32:25 GMT -5
I've thought a lot about it, and researched it thoroughly and I'm totally satisfied John Long knew what he was talking about as to when the 2x2 Sect began. You don't seem to know what you're talking about and you can't even get the pieces to fit your theory, and so you force them to fit by calling John Long senile. That's really smart of you . It affects the credibility of your storyline. You're the one who can't reconcile the issues/questions that appear to bother you. They didn't appear to be unresolved matters to JL. They don't make a hill of beans of difference to my research. JL was there in the beginning and he wrote about what he saw going on and experienced. He kept records of dates in his Bible...he didn't pull them out of thin air years afterwards. If more came in than necessary, learning to abound; if less, learning to suffer lack. I started on a Matthew Ten walking tour from Roscrea to Rathmolyon in County Meath, with the intention of speaking to every person I met about Christ. This was too much for any person to undertake, as some persons were easier reached than others. However the cross was in it, and the issues and results were good, for nearly every walking tour of that kind led on to definite mission work, and pioneered the way for others afterwards. During that tour I began conversation by personal testimony, asking them would they like to hear what God hath done for my soul? Although I resigned the Colportage work and the salary, I did not as yet cease to be a member of the Methodist Church. ~~ 2/ 1899: Leaving Rathmolyon, I took another short walking tour into Dublin City. While there I met with an old companion Walter Bradley, from Kilrush, a candidate for the Methodist ministry. I am sure a young man would be better fitted for the Lord's work by the experience of four years active service, learning at the feet of Jesus, than four years in college, coming out having to use a manuscript and not able to preach by promptings as the Holy Spirit gives utterance. It’s time that the churches waked up to the fact that it’s not Gold and College that fits for Gospel ministry, but Conversion and the Holy Spirit, 1 Peter 4:11; Acts 20:28. ~~ 3/ 1899: Irvine Weir and George Walker who became two prominent 2x2 workers group/church. On my return journey, I spent another week in Dublin City, and met with Irvine Weir, George Walker, Albert Quinn, and others who soon afterwards gave up their situations to go fully on the Lord's work. ~~ 4/1899: Jack Carroll, who later became another prominent Overseer 2x2 worker church From Dublin I returned again to the South, and helped at a mission in Shinrone. About that time, other features of the Lord's work presented themselves; unto them I said, "No," being in the will of God. The Methodist asked me to undertake an evangelistic campaign in a tent during the summer months in the City. Two ladies proposed to send me to D. L. Moody's training school in Chicago. Pastor Harpur asked me to join his band for street preaching in the Southern Counties. If I had got these chances at the beginning of my experience, I might have accepted the m; but having been so clearly led out on Faith Lines, I was afraid of turning aside to the right hand or to the left. Owing to the growing difficulties of getting halls and churches for Gospel missions, Jack Carroll from Nenagh, organised the building of a Wooden Hall, for itinerating mission work; and in one year there were at least dozen built in the British Isles. They were very laborious but a great invention and the mission work done in them was very successful and fruitful as persons came to them who would not attend any place of worship. For goodness sake nathan give up ! You cannot even get the simple fact that JOHN HARDIE was there from the beginning right, even though I have proved it to you ! |
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Post by nathan on Sept 11, 2017 21:38:12 GMT -5
1) Rose T. Do you believe William Irvine is the founder of the 2x2 friends and workers church in 1897?
2) Which year did John Hardie say William Irvine started the 2x2 friends and workers church, Rose T.?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 11, 2017 21:45:11 GMT -5
1) Rose T. Do you believe William Irvine is the founder of the 2x2 friends and workers church in 1897?
2) Which year did John Hardie say William Irvine started the 2x2 friends and workers church, Rose T.?
, yes I do believe Irvine was the founder of the 2x2 Church John Hardie lied about even knowing William Irvine when he was confronted by Doug Parker ! But if you bothered to look you will find letters that WI wrote to John Hardie about the beginning ! You keep saying JH wasn't there at the beginning but have a look at the photo taken in 1899 ! |
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Post by nathan on Sept 11, 2017 21:47:41 GMT -5
1) Rose T. Do you believe William Irvine is the founder of the 2x2 friends and workers church in 1897?
2) Which year did John Hardie say William Irvine started the 2x2 friends and workers church, Rose T.?
, yes I do believe Irvine was the founder of the 2x2 Church John Hardie lied about even knowing William Irvine when he was confronted by Doug Parker ! But if you bothered to look you will find letters that WI wrote to John Hardie about the beginning ! You keep saying JH wasn't there at the beginning but have a look at the photo taken in 1899 !
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 11, 2017 21:49:23 GMT -5
nathan , yes I do believe Irvine was the founder of the 2x2 Church John Hardie lied about even knowing William Irvine when he was confronted by Doug Parker ! But if you bothered to look you will find letters that WI wrote to John Hardie about the beginning ! You keep saying JH wasn't there at the beginning but have a look at the photo taken in 1899 !
1897 ! |
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Post by nathan on Sept 11, 2017 21:59:45 GMT -5
Let me ask you again... Which year do you think William Irvine started the 2x2 church?
1897 !
So, how can you say William Irvine and John Long started the 2x2 church in 1897? When there were no 2x2 friend or worker in 1897?
Tell me the names of two 2x2 friends in 1897. Thanks.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 11, 2017 22:03:30 GMT -5
Are you that BLIND? There were NO 2x2 friends and workers in 1897. There were ONLY 2x2 Faith Mission workers in 1897-98.... William Irvine and Fred Hughes..... John Long was a Methodist NOT a 2x2 worker in 1897. William Irvine was a Faith Mission preacher in 1897 NOT a 2x2 friends and workers in 1897.
just because Irvine still belonged to the Faith Mission doesn't mean he didn't go of and do his own thing ! I think you need to really re-read John Longs Journal again ! |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 11, 2017 22:13:26 GMT -5
CHAPTER 5 1897-THE REVIVAL AUGUST, 1897: I left Tarbert, and went to my Aunt Kate Davis, in Ballyheigue, where I spent two weeks. William Irvine and Fred Tapp left also and went to Spanish Point, and from there to Nenagh where THE REVIVAL BEGAN. After we left Tarbert we were all denounced by the priest from off the altar. From Ballyheigue, I removed to Tralee. I left there for home, greatly discouraged for lack of money. I purposed to give up the work but to love Jesus as much as ever. In one week I returned to it again, being encouraged by the friendly counsel of some who wished me well. The Revival began in a town which was mostly a Roman population, under very unfavourable circumstances; owing to bad attendances, the Methodist Church was closed, as the Protestants in that town were few in number. At his [Wm Irvine’s] first meeting only five persons attended; but at the closing meeting, there were one hundred present. He fought the battle and won the victory alone in prayer with God in his lodging, when God gave him that promise; "And lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee." Acts 27:24. The Protestant School Mistress, Sister Oakley, was the first to get saved; altogether upwards of thirty persons of position and note got converted; most of them afterwards gave up all that they had to follow Jesus. www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/1longjohn.php#1897 |
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 11, 2017 22:14:38 GMT -5
Sure - here are lots more than two!
1896: DORATHY (Dora/Dot) HOLLAND attended Irvine's mission in Kilrush and may have been present at a Magic Lantern service. She was born in January 1, 1876, in Annival, Co. Galway, Ireland and died August 1, 1968. It is generally accepted that Dora was Irvine's FIRST convert to profess. However, the year in which she professed differs according to the narrative; e.g. 1895, 1896 or 1897. Dora wrote:
"I...was a governess and lived with a lady in Kilrush, Co. Clare, a Mrs. Wm. Peacocke. It was while I was there that two preachers came along and held meetings in the town. I attended the services. They were held by a Mr. Wm. Irvine from Scotland, and his companion. It was at that time that I made the choice I would yield my life fully to God’s control. I decided then that I would give my life to gospel work sometime, but continued teaching for a few years...I can say that after being over seventeen years in touch with the work...that I have always found that everything in connection with it is in keeping with the highest conceptions of morality..." (letter to Dear Brother, Aug. 11, 1913). (1896)
1897, AUGUST 15-SEPTEMBER 16 - NENAGH MISSION, CO. TIPPERARY: Beginning August 1897, Wm. Irvine held a very successful six week Mission in Nenagh:
"At his [Wm. Irvine’s] first meeting only five persons attended; but at the closing meeting, there were one hundred present...altogether upwards of thirty persons of position and note got converted; most of them afterwards gave up all that they had to follow Jesus....At the mission held in Nenagh, a young man named Jack Carroll, also his sister May Carroll, got converted; they had a brother, Bill Carroll, who was a steward at Captain Fowlers, Rathmolyon, County Meath" (Journal, Aug. 1897).
G. Pattison also wrote about the success of the Nenagh Mission in which both Jack and May Carroll professed, along with about 40 others, who became Faith Mission Prayer Union members:
"Nenagh...had some of its best type powerfully appealed to, and yielded quite a crop of decisions for God, the following being some of them: Miss Oakley, who was then a teacher belonging to the Birr Oakleys, sister of Geo. Loney and cousin of Geo. Coughlan and Mrs. Williams of the Hotel; E. Bradshaw, Allen Harkness and sister, Jack Carroll and sister May; who were then living with their Uncle Pat, an exclusive Plym [Plymouth Brethren]; Dick Norman and a young man named Fred Hughes. This last named went with William Irvine for a little while shortly afterwards and played, sang, etc., also a young man named Wallace, and I think his sister, both from Templederry side, but then in situations in Nenagh. Probably there were others of whom I cannot now remember..." (G.P., Accounts of the Early Days).
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 11, 2017 22:17:30 GMT -5
THE EXCOMMUNICATION Now I come to the saddest events and most painful, trying and unexpected that I met with during my life’s experience; namely having to leave the Go Preacher fellowship; which God used me so much in, FROM ITS BEGINNING, ten years ago. Men raised up of God to do a special work such as John, ran often into zeal and extremes in fulfilling their mission; and God uses extraordinary men and effort to deliver souls, and to reap the harvest. He used Martin Luther with an iron will to fight the battle of the reformation; also he used George Fox to fight ritualism; but in doing so he swung the pendulum to the opposite extreme of rejecting the ordinances. I have no doubt that God used William Irvine to witness against clericalism; but in doing so he ran into the opposite, in going beyond truth when he preached that every clergyman is a false prophet and unsaved. Because I tried to correct him, and did not accept all he said as truth, I became unpopular among the workers. He remained that year in the British Isles, and every where he went he preached that the clergy were unsaved men going to Hell. He believed that it would be iniquity to believe a thing and not preach it; or to preach it in one place and not in another; that only made him the more faithful in his error; and the less open to take correction from any well wishing servant of the Lord. All who were in the Go-Preacher fellowship, and came under its teaching knew that there was much in its external obedience to the word that was superior to all other movements in the world; therefore, it appealed to those who received the truth with pleasure; nevertheless, in the internal and Spiritual aspects of truth, there may have been others superior to them. Being taken up so much with the external and legal side of truth, I believe about that time, they neglected the internal and Spiritual. It’s very remarkable that at that time, or one year sooner, originated another movement in Los Angeles, America, who emphasized the Spiritual side. God does raise up one movement to supply the lack and correct the errors of another. The Lord says, “In measure when it shooteth forth, thou wilt debate with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind,” Isa. 27:8. The definite article [“the”] used in such a narrow way as The truth, The way, The Testimony, Etc. unto the exclusion of all other sects and missions outside their own became at that time very common. They “unChristianized” all Christians outside themselves; and refused fellowship with them, and I could not go that length conscientiously; and indeed the instructions of Christ, given in Matthew Ten to His Apostles appears to be so contrary to that belief and spirit that it must have been blindness on the part of Irvine and Cooney not to have seen it; but he knew well enough they had got into a trap, as was manifest from one address at the convention in which he said it was good to err on the opposite side of the world. Measuring regeneration by the life of Christ and not by the Atonement; by the external conformity and not by an internal experience was one of the causes of the error. When I went to the south of Ireland before the convention, I was surprised to find most of the Go-Preacher fellowship against me; and it was heart-rending to find oneself rejected, despised, and betrayed by many of my own friends and countrymen; who set the report going that I was disloyal to William Irvine; that report went up like a whirlwind to the convention held at Crocknacrieve, Ballinamallard, near Enniskillen, on the domain of John West. Among my friends at Cloughjordan was one Goodhand Pattison, a man who meant well; he tried to expostulate with me, to be careful, as it would not be for the better if William Irvine and I separated, we being the two instruments used of God at the origin of that movement. JULY, 1907: At that time, there would be upwards of 500 Go-Preacher Evangelists, including Brothers and Sisters, out fully in the work. They had already laboured in the British Isles, the United States, Nova Scotia, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa. Converts and workers, including coloured people, were present at that convention. From time to time, Roman Catholics were converted and odd ones went out on the work. Truth was maintained and prayer, praise and preaching were ministered as on former occasion with heavy debates. William Irvine asked me to speak at one of the meetings, with the planned object of denouncing me before the audience because I believed that there were clergymen born again. The denunciations were so strong it was unbearable for a man of principle and conscience to take it, without demanding from him his authority and justice in doing so When I did, he said that they would have a meeting for me to prove to them that John Wesley was a saved man; and that there are saved clergymen. I was cut to the heart. I sought comforters but found none. I had to wander out and in alone; nevertheless, when earthly comforters failed the Comfort of the Holy Spirit was very real in my soul; and I felt that the Lord Jesus, who as my Advocate with the Father was pleading for me at the right hand of God. Had I known that my time was drawing near leaving the fellowship and separation was so near, I would have made a stronger defensive address and protest against error; but knowing how God used William Irvine in the past; and that I had got much blessing through his testimony in my own life and work, it made me more lenial and forbearing towards him than I otherwise would; however, it may be that God preserved me to that hour to witness against an extreme scarcely equaled in the annals of the history of the Christian Church.; and not be so lenient with them; but that arose from past experience and fellowship. My defensive address was short, but to the point. I warned against strange fire, and believing an untruth. I showed how, through faith in the Lord Jesus, John Wesley received the witness of the Spirit in his soul; also when it went to works, we all come short of the labours of that Godly man. none of them yet was as self denial as he was; I also added that I was not opposed to a true witness against wrong, but a false one. I was seconded by Goodhand Pattison of/from Cloughjordan/but the whole conference stood up to express their belief that there was no clergyman born again; then William Irvine said, "See the majority is against you, John." Then he denounced me again with two untrue accusations. One that I never got on well with any worker (no doubt taking advantage of the rupture between me and John Reyston). The other that I lived for years on his testimony. Unto these I said but little and let the thing pass by. But if God used him to open up my way in Scotland; God used me to open up his way in Ireland; and during the ten years since the revival began with very little exception, I was in lodgings; and hard put to it at times and received very little financial help from him. I was too quiet for William Irvine, and he was a warrior and an able conversationalist. Then Irvine tested the meeting and asked all those who believe that there are clergymen born again? And there were only two stood up, namely Pattison and I. Then he asked all those who believe that there never was or never could be a clergyman born again to stand up, and every one of them stood up, except two, and there were fully 200 people present. Then Irvine warned me not to visit any saint’s house, but to go on fresh ground for myself, and if I came back after twelve months believing that clergymen were saved, they would look upon me as being unsaved too; that cut the last thread of my fellowship with them, so I left in tears. Many years have passed away; and time did much to correct extremes; yet I cannot say that the Go-Preacher mission from that time ever did the same soul saving work that characterized the original years of the work. They still exist in an exclusive manner and are more careful in preaching, and modified in their tone. Of the wrong done to me at that time, there has been not public confession or acknowledgement; it severed me from some of my near relatives; and robbed me of my privilege, namely the right of fellowship in the mission I helped to start. Many persons thought that when I left the Go-Preachers, I would give up the work; or give up portions of the truth; but praise the Lord, all that I held then which was scripturally right, I still hold fast; and this year of grace 1923 finds me still preaching the Gospel, and fully in the Lord’s work and a Go-Preacher, though not in fellowship with them (Nov. , 1941). 1. The Bible’s my guide, for it’s God’s precious Word, Revealing the will of my Saviour and Lord. No truth it contains should we ever withhold, But publish it far with a zeal that is bold. 2. The world is my parish, I’ll preach through it all, And tell of our Saviour who saves from the fall The Jew and the Gentile, the rich and the poor, There’s pardon in Jesus for them to be sure. 3. The people may wonder at such a campaign And raise opposition that causeth much pain, But sinners repenting and trusting the Blood, Shall find full salvation and peace with the Lord. www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/3longjohn.php#1907 |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 11, 2017 22:21:27 GMT -5
Sure - here are lots more than two!
1896: DORATHY (Dora/Dot) HOLLAND attended Irvine's mission in Kilrush and may have been present at a Magic Lantern service. She was born in January 1, 1876, in Annival, Co. Galway, Ireland and died August 1, 1968. It is generally accepted that Dora was Irvine's FIRST convert to profess. However, the year in which she professed differs according to the narrative; e.g. 1895, 1896 or 1897. Dora wrote: "I...was a governess and lived with a lady in Kilrush, Co. Clare, a Mrs. Wm. Peacocke. It was while I was there that two preachers came along and held meetings in the town. I attended the services. They were held by a Mr. Wm. Irvine from Scotland, and his companion. It was at that time that I made the choice I would yield my life fully to God’s control. I decided then that I would give my life to gospel work sometime, but continued teaching for a few years...I can say that after being over seventeen years in touch with the work...that I have always found that everything in connection with it is in keeping with the highest conceptions of morality..." (letter to Dear Brother, Aug. 11, 1913). (1896)
1897, AUGUST 15-SEPTEMBER 16 - NENAGH MISSION, CO. TIPPERARY: Beginning August 1897, Wm. Irvine held a very successful six week Mission in Nenagh: "At his [Wm. Irvine’s] first meeting only five persons attended; but at the closing meeting, there were one hundred present...altogether upwards of thirty persons of position and note got converted; most of them afterwards gave up all that they had to follow Jesus....At the mission held in Nenagh, a young man named Jack Carroll, also his sister May Carroll, got converted; they had a brother, Bill Carroll, who was a steward at Captain Fowlers, Rathmolyon, County Meath" (Journal, Aug. 1897). G. Pattison also wrote about the s uccess of the Nenagh Mission in which both Jack and May Carroll professed, along with about 40 others, who became Faith Mission Prayer Union members: "Nenagh...had some of its best type powerfully appealed to, and yielded quite a crop of decisions for God, the following being some of them: Miss Oakley, who was then a teacher belonging to the Birr Oakleys, sister of Geo. Loney and cousin of Geo. Coughlan and Mrs. Williams of the Hotel; E. Bradshaw, Allen Harkness and sister, Jack Carroll and sister May; who were then living with their Uncle Pat, an exclusive Plym [Plymouth Brethren]; Dick Norman and a young man named Fred Hughes. This last named went with William Irvine for a little while shortly afterwards and played, sang, etc., also a young man named Wallace, and I think his sister, both from Templederry side, but then in situations in Nenagh. Probably there were others of whom I cannot now remember..." (G.P., Accounts of the Early Days). Thank you CherieKropp, it seems that the stories match I spent a few hours last night reading John Longs Journal I only got to 1908, but its very interesting. |
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Post by nathan on Sept 11, 2017 22:30:07 GMT -5
Sure - here are lots more than two!
1896: DORATHY (Dora/Dot) HOLLAND attended Irvine's mission in
Kilrush and may have been present at a Magic Lantern service. She was born in January 1,1876, in Annival, Co. Galway, Ireland and died August 1, 1968. It is generally accepted that Dora was Irvine's FIRST convert to profess. However, the year in which she professed differs according to the narrative; e.g. 1895, 1896 or 1897. Dora wrote: "I...was a governess and lived with a lady in Kilrush, Co. Clare, a Mrs. Wm. Peacocke. It was while I was there that two preachers came along and held meetings in the town. I attended the services. They were held by a Mr. Wm. Irvine from Scotland, and his companion. It was at that time that I made the choice I would yield my life fully to God’s control. I decided then that I would give my life to gospel work sometime, but continued teaching for a few years...I can say that after being over seventeen years in touch with the work...that I have always found that everything in connection with it is in keeping with the highest conceptions of morality..." (letter to Dear Brother, Aug. 11, 1913). (1896)
1897, AUGUST 15-SEPTEMBER 16 - NENAGH MISSION, CO. TIPPERARY: Beginning August 1897, Wm. Irvine held a very successful six week Mission in Nenagh: "At his [Wm. Irvine’s] first meeting only five persons attended; but at the closing meeting, there were one hundred present...altogether upwards of thirty persons of position and note got converted; most of them afterwards gave up all that they had to follow Jesus....At the mission held in Nenagh, a young man named Jack Carroll, also his sister May Carroll, got converted; they had a brother, Bill Carroll, who was a steward at Captain Fowlers, Rathmolyon, County Meath" (Journal, Aug. 1897). G. Pattison also wrote about the success of the Nenagh Mission in which both Jack and May Carroll professed, along with about 40 others, who became Faith Mission Prayer Union members: "Nenagh...had some of its best type powerfully appealed to, and yielded quite a crop of decisions for God, the following being some of them: Miss Oakley, who was then a teacher belonging to the Birr Oakleys, sister of Geo. Loney and cousin of Geo. Coughlan and Mrs. Williams of the Hotel; E. Bradshaw, Allen Harkness and sister, Jack Carroll and sister May; who were then living with their Uncle Pat, an exclusive Plym [Plymouth Brethren]; Dick Norman and a young man named Fred Hughes. This last named went with William Irvine for a little while shortly afterwards and played, sang, etc., also a young man named Wallace, and I think his sister, both from Templederry side, but then in situations in Nenagh. Probably there were others of whom I cannot now remember..." (G.P., Accounts of the Early Days). Thank you CherieKropp , it seems that the stories match I spent a few hours last night reading John Longs Journal I only got to 1908, but its very interesting.
These 70 professed and many of them became Faith Mission prayer Union members! of John Govan Faith Mission group they were NOT 2x2 friends!. What is wrong with you! Cherie.... They professed through William Irvine mission when he was a Faith Mission preacher! the Faith Mission group claimed them as their converts.
Fred Hughes was a Faith Mission companion of William Irvine in 1898 when they had a study on Matthew 10 with John Long.
~~ NathanB: It was through Faith Mission gospel missions held by William Irvine and his Faith Mission companion that Dora Holland, 40, and 30 people professed through and many of them became Faith Mission Prayer Union members! THEY DID NOT become 2x2s friends in 1896 or 1897 because there WERE no 2x2 worker or friend in 1987!
How can you missed all of this Rose T. and Cherie K.?? The information is right there on front of you! Just re-read again....
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 11, 2017 22:35:48 GMT -5
So - he was both preaching with FM and gathering converts for his Sect in 1897. Most or many of the famous 30-40 who converted in the same mission became 2x2 workers, right?
Happens all the time. A person may continue working at his current job until he gets his own business all set up and going well, before he resigns from the first job. WmI did that. What is wrong with you that you can see that, Nate?
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Post by nathan on Sept 11, 2017 22:50:08 GMT -5
So - he was both preaching with FM and gathering converts for his Sect in 1897. Most or many of the famous 30-40 who converted in the same mission became 2x2 workers, right? Happens all the time. A person may continue working at his current job until he gets his own business all set up and going well, before he resigns from the first job. WmI did that. What is wrong with you that you can see that, Nate?
William Irvine was STILL a Faith Mission preacher in 1898, He and his Faith Mission companion Fred Hughes were having Bible Study Matthew 10 with John Long, who was a Methodist at the time.
May Carrol was one of William Irvine Faith Mission converts in 1897, she became a Faith Mission sister worker in 1898... Who later left the Faith Mission and became a 2x2 worker after 1900s.
Many of Irvine's converts from the Faith M. missions from 1896-7, joined him and they became known as 2x2 friends and workers church after he left the Faith Mission 12/1900.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 11, 2017 23:19:31 GMT -5
So - he was both preaching with FM and gathering converts for his Sect in 1897. Most or many of the famous 30-40 who converted in the same mission became 2x2 workers, right? Happens all the time. A person may continue working at his current job until he gets his own business all set up and going well, before he resigns from the first job. WmI did that. What is wrong with you that you can see that, Nate?
May Carrol was one of William Irvine Faith Mission converts in 1897, she became a Faith Mission sister worker in 1898... Who later left the Faith Mission and became a 2x2 worker after 1900s.
Many of Irvine's converts from the Faith M. missions, joined him after he left the Faith Mission 12/1900.
You obviously didn't read what John Long said nathan ! Are you still saying John Hardie wasn't there from the beginning ? |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 11, 2017 23:42:22 GMT -5
You obviously didn't read what John Long said nathan ! Are you still saying John Hardie wasn't there from the beginning ?
And Do you STILL believe the above names were 2x2 friends in 1896-97, Ros T.? How gullible can you be?, John Hardie was with William Irvine BEFORE he went in the work ! If you are going to state something as a fact on your website you better make sure it is right ! Yes I do believe they were WI first converts, because it is backed up by more than one person ! You really don't seem to be able to understand that WI was out doing his own thing even thought he still belonged to the FM. Also are you saying the photo taken in 1899 of John Hardie with WI is wrong ? |
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Post by nathan on Sept 11, 2017 23:46:19 GMT -5
John Hardie started in the work in 1900.
And Do you STILL believe the above names were 2x2 friends in 1896-97, Ros T.? How gullible can you be? , John Hardie was with William Irvine BEFORE he went in the work ! If you are going to state something as a fact on your website you better make sure it is right ! Yes I do believe they were WI first converts, because it is backed up by more than one person ! You really don't seem to be able to understand that WI was out doing his own thing even thought he still belonged to the FM.
Can you answer my question and please don't beat around the bush with your evading answers... Do you still believe the above names such as Dora Holland, 40 and 30 converts, Jack and May Carroll were 2x2 friends in 1896-7... Rose T.?
Yes, they were William Irvine's converts from the Faith Mission, missions... They were Faith Mission preachers converts missions... HOW in the world can you and Cherie K. say they were 2x2 converts in 1897? when there were NO 2x2 friend or workers in 1897?
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Post by Grant on Sept 12, 2017 0:56:50 GMT -5
Attending Faith Mission prayer meetings does not mean that they became members of the Faith Mission. Christians meet together to pray. Meeting with them for prayer meetings does not mean they belonged to the Faith Mission. It appears that these were Irvine's workers. The first to join him.
They sent people back to their churches remember so if they were converted through the Faith Mission they would stay in their churches. It was Irvine and Co who required everyone who converted to go into the work not the Faith Mission.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 12, 2017 5:04:26 GMT -5
Ok... let's say John Hardie was in the beginning with William Irvine... case closed.
Can you answer my question and please don't beat around the bush with your evading answers... Do you still believe the above names such as Dora Holland, 40 and 30 converts, Jack and May Carroll were 2x2 friends in 1896-7... Rose T.?
Yes, they were William Irvine's converts from the Faith Mission, missions... They were Faith Mission preachers converts missions... HOW in the world can you and Cherie K. say they were 2x2 converts in 1897? when there were NO 2x2 friend or workers in 1897?
Enuf is right .
If they had been Faith Mission converts they been told to go back to their own churches and you wouldn't even had their names on record! |
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Post by nathan on Sept 12, 2017 8:07:49 GMT -5
Ok... let's say John Hardie was in the beginning with William Irvine... case closed.
Can you answer my question and please don't beat around the bush with your evading answers... Do you still believe the above names such as Dora Holland, 40 and 30 converts, Jack and May Carroll were 2x2 friends in 1896-7... Rose T.?
Yes, they were William Irvine's converts from the Faith Mission, missions... They were Faith Mission preachers converts missions... HOW in the world can you and Cherie K. say they were 2x2 converts in 1897? when there were NO 2x2 friend or workers in 1897?
Enuf is right .
If they had been Faith Mission converts they been told to go back to their own churches and you wouldn't even had their names on record!
So, it is incorrect and WRONG! for Cherie K. to believe and claimed they are 2x2 friends! in 1897 and William Irvine and John Long were 1897 2x2 workers.
Cherie K. is NOT Telling the WHOLE truth......
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. It affects the credibility of your storyline. 