Post by nathan on Jul 9, 2017 20:04:13 GMT -5
Mar 8, 2020 believingjesus said:
Outside of the early church, was no one saved for the first ~1900 years after Christ’s death? Doesn’t this make for poor timing on God’s part and make Christ’s sacrifice a waste for the first 1900 years?
Who, if anyone, was saved during this time period? Since the RCC actively discouraged translation of the Bible, how was anyone saved prior to the Protestant reformation?
~~ NathanB: In Matthew 16; 24:14. 28:16-20; Acts 1:8 Jesus said to His apostles and followers, "Upon this Rock/Christ I will build MY Church and the gates of Hell shall not overcome it... And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jesus said in Acts 1:8 "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Here are some history of Various Christians that had similar teachings, belief to 2x2s, and the Faith Mission for 1800 years.
Paul had most of these gifts himself Eph. 4:11-14. and the saints as well.
And he/Jesus gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Paul wrote two callings: Romans 1:1;7. Apostles and Saints.
Paul as an apostle Romans 1:1
Paul as a Prophet Acts 13:1-2
Paul as ambassador of the gospel II Cor 5:20
Paul as a shepherd II Cor. 11:26-28
Paul as a Minister spiritual leader Eph. 5:5-7
Paul as a Worker Coll. 4:11
Paul as a Teacher, preacher I Tim 2:7
Paul as an Evangelist I Tim. 4:5
The Saints: has similar gifts church elders/pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so on... The ministry gifts were given to prepare God's people to become teachers, preachers, evangelists, and pastors so they too can be better witnesses for Christ in all the world and to strengthen the churches/people of God.
Collected posts on Feb 28, 2019 Christiansburg (2x2/ex-worker) Wrote:
I personally had never heard of the Waldensians until about 10 years ago. Our ministry is so different that I wondered if there were others who ever tried it before 1898.
That is when I read about that group, a recent visit to their museum and personal conversations with them revealed that they seemed to change from what they had done earlier as a 2x2 group. I asked why they had changed and was told that they knew they had to give up some of their earlier ideas in order to survive. As you know they merged with the Presbyterians.
None of the workers I knew years ago ever spoke of the Waldensians. Maybe they knew. Maybe they didn't. I just don't know.
If you research the Waldenses you will find a treasure trove of information of what you ask about. I studied about them several years ago got a book from one of their museums in North Carolina. There is a historical record of them written by (Rev.) John Hons published in 1982 -- second edition. It is a long but detailed (and documented) record of their survival from the 1st century on. They migrated from central Italy to northwest Italy then into the Alps and on to Switzerland. They were a repressed, hunted down and murdered group of people. The Romans Catholic Church were threatened by them and sought to eliminate them. A few survived and hid in Switzerland.
They record a record of their homeless ministry, meetings in the home. Too much to detail here.
When I visited their museum it was housed in a Presbyterian Church. I told the minister there who gave us a guided tour that I knew their history and then ask why they gave up on following their past way of doing things. His words "...We had to release those ideas and merge with the Presbyterian Church in order to survive". I told him that because of that they had not survived. He agreed.
The museum is located in Vale, NC. When the King James 1611 Bible was being translated it is believed that remnants of the Waldenses' Bible records may have been used.
There is another book written by one of our friends also "Apostles Doctrine and Fellowship" written by Dr. Cornelius Jaenen. He is well educated having graduated from a Canadian university with a degree in history. Mr. Jaenen went to Ethopia in the early 1950's to provide an open home for the workers. He is not there now but maybe returned to Canada. His book is still available on Amazon for about $50.00.
Cherie Kropp posted segments of his book here in 2016, I believe. She provided her critique also on this website. Mr Jaenen attempts to trace Apostolic Succession back to the the first 12 Apostles. If you read the book you can make your own assumptions about that. I am satisfied well enough just to accept that what we have in our fellowship today as being as near to the NT ministry and fellowship as anything I know about. I have been professing for 63 years. I started going to meetings in 1956. I came out from the Methodist church in 1956. My grandparents were Catholic and Episcopalian on my mother's side. On my father's side they were Baptist. I know 100% what goes on there. I also know full well the challenges we face.
Jun 20, 2012
I was with a group of workers in 1963 in an eastern state when I was in the work. I heard the story about William Irvine and Eddie Cooney discussed between George Walker and the overseer of our state. Of course, both of these men were from Ireland and knew Eddie personally. George especially still had admiration for Eddie but there was a problem not with his revelation, but with his willingness to work together with others in the ministry.
The fellowship had grown so large world wide that there had to be some order and manage- was necessary. Eddie was not willing to work in unity with others so even though he was avoided he actually brought that on himself. It doesn't matter how great you become submission is still necessary.
I have always admired the story that we have about the earlier workers and those who gave an honest sacrifice. In spite of the book "The Secret Sect" it was no secret to many of us nor to many in our state. The question arose then, "Why talk about those who appeared to have failed when it was unedifying.
Someday I may tell my story even though I am no longer in the work. I have a very deep appreciation for those who are still there. I was there for eight years and enjoyed every year. My life was truly enriched because of that period of time in my life.
In 1963, Richmond Virginia, I personally heard George Walker and Charles Hughes talking about "The beginning of William Irvine and John Long's experience". Both men were deeply concerned not only about their own souls but what they witnessed in the religious world at that time. There was no shortage of religion as we have read. Many people had their own ideas and some were most definitely self serving. William Irvine and those around him were definitely moved initially with this thought "If it was done this way in the first century could we not do the same today.
William said to his friend John Long at the Faith Mission "Do you think we can do this today? (1897) George Walker said "It came into their hearts that this would be the right thing for them and they both realized it was a great step of faith. They were not moved with the idea of becoming a founder of anything. They were moved with feeling of trying to fulfill in their own generation what had been in the record for almost 2,000 years. I call that a revelation.
Now you can lay aside all the chatter about failures along the way, Irvine being one, and just take a good honest look at faith in trying to make that a part of our lives today - The life and teaching of Christ.
George Walker told us about 2 to 3 after Irvine and Long "Launched Forth" he met Willie Gill bearing the same message. George said he was going on 21 at the time and was moved by what these men had done and was moved to take the same step in faith. Both George & Charlie acknowledged that William lost the sincerity he had in the beginning and unfortunately found himself outside of the fellowship that had become such a valuable gift to our generation.
The discussion took place on special meeting rounds. George was a visiting worker at the time.
There were about 16 workers in the room. We all sat in silence and listened to the two of them. Of the 16 workers about 9 are dead and only two are still in the work. I was one of the 16 workers there. I don't recall a question being asked in reference to anyone in particular. They talked about how the gospel had moved out from Ireland. More specifically it centered around William Irvine and his inspiration to leave the Faith Mission and that he gave his sister credit for influencing him. As I mentioned the details of their conversation was not discussed but I'm sure whatever it was both George and Charlie knew. It would be nice to have those men back among us. I would ask a lot of questions.
George and Charlie did not discuss Robert Darling or George Gittins but only referred to William Irvine's sister. I was 23 when I heard this conversation but did not pickup on the names you mentioned. But as I mentioned I have not talked about the sister openly (until now) because it did not show up in anything that I read about him in the following years. These were the words Charlie used: "It came into her heart to tell William Irvine about her experience." He did not elaborate beyond that.
My suggestion was that history seems to show that there was an effort to follow the same pattern in different era of time. Both groups believed it was something that could be done. I think most Christian believers will feel that God has always had a people he could call his own in every age. I don't think we can pass judgment on how they become his people. I am glad that is left up to him. I suppose we will all see someday.
I deeply appreciate what those early men did. I am amazed.
NathanB wrote: That is so awesome, Christianburg! Thanks, so much for the information and some of the early history of the 2x2.
I first heard about the Vaudois/Waldesense when Jay W. and I were together as co-workers in North Bend, Oregon 1988-89.
There was a University church historian, who gave a lecture about the Vaudois/Waldenses and Peter Waldo in 1160 A.D. It was an amazing lecture to listen to her. A few months later, someone gave us the Pilgrim Church by Broadbent at Boring convention, and some of the workers Jay W. Randy R. and myself read the book in the car on our way to other conventions. We found out more information about the Vaudois history and Peter Waldo, the Frenchman who became follower of the Vaudois and his amazing 2x2 apostolic ministry up till the time he died.
After I left the work in 1993, I put a lot of time searching, studying and find all I could about the Vaudois history and their belief, from other historians and their own church historians. I was astonished of the information available on the Internet on the Vaudois, Albigenses, Poor men of Lyons/France or Peter Waldo and his followers in the 11th century.
Someone on TMB post the pilgrim church book by Broadbent and I am glad they did so others can read it for themselves. I had post many of their belief and teachings for 20 yrs.
Title: The Pilgrim Church
Author: E. H. Broadbent
Chapter V history of the Vaudois/Waldenses
Date first posted: July 2010
~~ MANY interesting articles about the 2x2 group, the RCC, and the 40,000 plus Protestant denominations
~~ Joe Kerr an ex-worker from 1903-1915, he left the 2x2 wrote in 1951 that he read the Pilgrim Church book.
JOE KERR was born in 1881 in Dumfriesshire, Wanlockhead, Scotland, and grew up in the small village of Philipstown. He was a convert of Ed Cooney and entered the work in 1902-1915. Joe was one of the eight pioneers of the work in South Africa in 1905, along with Alex Pearce, John Cavanagh, Wilson Reid, Mary Moodie, Martha Skerrit, Lilly Reid and Barbara Baxter.
In 1915, the same year Joe and Barbara married, another married couple was allowed to begin preaching. Perhaps Joe did not ask permission before his marriage took place. It is not known if Archie and Gladys left voluntarily. Archie and Joe and their wives joined the Plymouth Brethren. In his letter, Joe refers to E. H. Broadbent's book, "The Pilgrim Church." The author, Broadbent, was a Plymouth Brethren. Barbara died Feb. 24 1947, aged 64, and Joe died Dec. 17, 1966, aged 85, in Cape Town.
Joe Kerr wrote: "In the book, Broadbent's "Pilgrim Church," a book that is well worth reading, we learn that there have been people all down through the ages who have sought to walk as near to the truth of Scripture as they could. They were given different names and were badly persecuted."
1) On Cherie K. TTT website: She wrote William Irvine is the founder of the 2s2 church in 1897.
Was William Irvine a Founder or a Finder/Leader of the 2x2 Church in 1897?
~~ NathanB wrote: William Irvine and John Long DID not start or having any thought of starting a 2x2 workers and friends church in 1897. In 1997 Telling the Truth website, owner Cherie Kropp ( a former member of 2x2 workers and friends church/group. Cherie parents had a 2x2 workers and friends convention ground in USA for many years. One brother had been a worker in Calf. USA for a few years). Cherie Kropp believed 100% that William Irvine started and founded the 2x2 church, in 1897 and that information is NOT correct. The name of Cherie's website is Telling the Truth, also known as TTT.
According to John Long, and the early workers recognized William Irvine as their leader NOT as their Founder, because he copied the 2x2 workers ministry from John G. Govan, the Founder of the Faith Mission going in pairs workers in 1886. I will point out as time goes on this time line William Irvine founding date 1897 as a Founder of the 2x2 is incorrect.
~~ Edward Cooney (1867-1960) 2x2 early days worker in (1901) wrote To Impartial Reporter 10/7/1909
1) Edward Cooney wrote, " We (2x2 workers) did NOT start this Jesus Way. It was started and planned by God before we were thought of, and we are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the tradition of men. There was in the day, William Irvine, upon whose heart God's Spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the TRUTH as it is in Jesus." ( By Patricia Roberts book page 43-45)
Edward Cooney wrote, "Undoubtedly God has called us and separated us to be His people in the beginning, and most prominent and most used in this calling out a people, William Irvine who at the time of being sent forth to be a prophet, saw more clearly than any of us that the revelation of the Father to each individual child of His is Christ would build His Church, and that the gates of HELL shall NOT prevail against it." (By Patricia Roberts Page 43-45)
Questions of C. A. Wiebush
Evangelical Lutheran Synod of Australia
April 23, 1931
TO: Mr. Willliam. J. Hughes, Tusmore (2x2 worker)
1. Would you kindly give me the origin and history of your organization?
Ans: The religious world has passed through many stages of apostasy and reformation, since Christ and His apostles established Christianity upon the earth, but we have no reason to think, nor right to say that God has not at all times been able to preserve a true seed in the world, a seed or people who have always looked beyond form or schism and creed back to the Way and Truth of Christ. Back to Christianity in its purity and simplicity, back to the living Christianity which was very much more than a creed, back to the Christlike humble sacrificing ministry as exemplified in the New Testament apostles, back to a Christianity which refused all conformity to the world.
But (perhaps as a sign that the world is nearing the return of the Lord to the earth) there has in recent years been a very real and distinct turning of the minds and hearts of men and women towards its simplicity and purity of early Christianity. This is undoubtedly attributable to what we may call the modernization of Christianity, the lack of clear unequivocal preaching of the Gospel of Christ, the tendency of holding only a head belief in Christ, instead of a faith which leads to true discipleship, questionable ways of raising money for religious work, flirtation with the world in its pleasures, sins and fashions, and other things which the Bible says would prevail in the last days.
The foundation and authorship of this movement cannot be attributed to any one man or number of men but is the result of reaching after Truth, during a number of years, of many men. Many no doubt have been unwilling for the sacrifice, when their minds were turned back to the lowly way of Christ, but others have been willing to sacrifice everything in their desire to get back to the simplicity and sincerity of the early Christianity and to lead others to do likewise.
This is our aim--it is heartily welcomed by some but hated by others. This is as simply as I can put the case although our desire to follow the one Lord and to preach his Gospel binds us into a very real fellowship, we have either any headquarters on earth nor a Headman. Our preachers are all on the same level (as Christ said they should be) and so we desire to be known only as Christians or followers of Christ.
George Walker, 2x2 worker (1899) wrote:
To the American Selective service in 1942
We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of people in British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind, through their study of the Scriptures, in regard to the methods of preaching and worship in the several churches of which they were members. They were deeply concerned about the spiritual things, and became fully convinced that there should be a Return! to the methods and purpose taught and carried out by Christ and His first disciples.
This conviction led to frequent earnest conversations and studies on the subject, which in turn led to religious meetings, and in due times a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the gospel according to the teaching and example of Christ as given in the New Testament... i.e. "Two by Two" and without salary or making appeal for financial assistance, putting implicit trust in God and His promise that as they "sought first the kingdom of God" their natural needs of food and raiment's "would be added unto them."
As a result of this step, many people expressed their desire to be in fellowship with such preachers and this led to regular gathering together of small assemblies in homes for worship and study of God's word. The reason for meeting in homes was primary because it is Scriptures, the Christians during the first centuries of the Christian were met regularly for worship in the homes, which fact is also borne out and supported by church history.
Thus after serious consideration, the leaders were confident that in their efforts to follow the early Christians they should form church gatherings in homes; therefore NO church property or real estate has been acquired by purchased or otherwise, and for this reason incorporation and registration under denominational name has NOT been necessary....
Testimonies of workers through the years...
~~~ "We believe the apostles have Existed since Jesus sent forth the 70 disciples Two and Two." Richard Sullivan. (USA worker)
~~~ "It's from the beginning, planned in God's mind before creation. Walter Nelson. 1976 (USA worker)
~~~ "Was William Irvine the first in the way?" "I think William was among the first... I feel that God has had a Way on the earth since before the foundation of the earth... I don't believe William Irvine is the beginner of it." Bea Mokini. 1985 ( A native Hawaiian worker).
~~~ In answer to your question, "Where did this religion actually begin?" Was it with Jesus as we have been told in Gospel Meetings, or by a man name William Irvine in 1897? We believe Hebrews 12:2 "Looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith." I would like to give you some references that mean a lot to me as we carry the Gospel to people and point them to something that is from the beginning and not to something started by Man.
In John 17:5 Jesus spoke of the glory which He had with the Father before the world was, and in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word" etc. So, there is NO date for the starting, as it was with the Heavenly Father before the world. Why would we want something started by a Man when we have in the scripture something that is from the beginning and the scripture to back it up? Doris B. letter, 1989
~~~ "I never met William Irvine at any time and believe he was used of God, but was Never the Origin of what we believe. I understand he became too big in himself and Left the fellowship we love. Workers I know and respect preach only what Jesus lived and taught with no mention at all of William Irvine, or any other man and give only real appreciation for those who retell in our days things taught in Jesus' day. This faith began in New Testament days, neither in Ireland, Scotland or in the U.K. Roddy M. (Scotland Worker) letter dated 6/1/1995.
~~~ "William Irvine Did Not start this Church, it is from beginning, and the Way was just made evidence to him, then." Karen Tenniswood. 1996 (USA)
~~~ "However, regardless of a written record being preserved, Truth is Truth. If nobody believes it and or ... if everybody believes it. Whether or not a thing is believed in has nothing to do with its correctness. To use parable illustration, the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. That is an established fact of existence. Whether or not people believe the sun rises in the East and sets in the West...in no way changes that established fact of reality...
Everybody could believe the sun rises in the West and sets in the East, but this would not make it true. For anyone to say that what the Bible teaches was started at some certain year since the first century is pitiful Ignorance, and closing the eyes to established facts and truths. The teachings of the New Testament were started in the first century when God's dear Son was here on the earth. That is those truths were established in a group of believers then. But that is NOT where it started.
What God gave through his son was planned before the world began. Matt. 15: 34-35; John 17:24; Acts 3: 20-21; Rom 16: 25-26; I Cor. 2:7; Eph 1:4-5; Titus 1: 2; I Peter 1:18-21. "These truths make very clear that what God the Father... Jesus Christ, the Son of God... and the Holy Spirit believe in, and what God's true ministers and Christians believed in, was planned in the heart and mind of God before the world began, and we Believe the same TODAY. So, it is 100% False for anyone to say that What we Believe was started in some recent year." Dan Hilton. Letter 11/21/89
~~~ "We are NOT following some way Founded in the early 1900s, but it goes back to Christ. Jesus Himself set it up. Whether it was planted in the 1st Century, the 10th century or the 2Oth century, the message is the same, it produces the same thing." Tharold Sylvester 11/16/83 (USA worker)
~~~ "We are simply a Continuation of the Author of Truth." Harry Brownlee. 8/16/79 (USA worker)
~~~ "We are often asked who started this Church?" Heb. 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith." Jesus gave us God's eternal plan of Salvation in its fullness. He is both the Author and Finisher. The Way is like a seed, like the wheat seed. It was Created at the beginning of the world. Dan H. 1/1/84 Burlington, WA. (USA)
~~~ "Don't you believe that something so Precious to God could be Preserved and Passed through his Beloved mouthpieces over any age and time? God's way is Eternal!" Cheryl L.
~~ Who was William Irvine?
William Irvine, was born in Scotland 1/7/1863 and he died in Jerusalem 3/9/1947. William Irvine family was Presbyterians church members. William Irvine had 3 brothers, and 7 sisters= 11 children total. William Irvine was the second oldest son.
~~ 1893 At the age of 30 years old, he made his choice to serve God in a revival meeting in Motherwell, Scotland by Reverend John McNeill, who was a Methodist evangelist. ~~ 1893-95 William Irvine worked as a coal miner. He studied in the Bible Training Institute in Glasgow for two years. In 1895 he became a worker/pilgrim/preacher with the Faith Mission was founded in 1886 by John G. Govan in Scotland, practiced an Apostolic Faith New Testament ministry. The Faith Mission, it's an independent and an inter-denominations (a non-exclusive group teaching their converts to join the church of their choice after they were born again or became Faith Mission Union prayers member if they wish to do so.)
~~ The Faith Mission: John G. Govan
John G. Govan (1861-1927)... organization the Faith Mission, a kind of Holiness Presbyterian ministry in October 1886 to revive Christian living in mainstream denomination through sending out Unordain in pairs same sex, or married, on the apostolic model.
It is understood that the Faith Mission work is essentially itinerant, NOT the establishment of permanent mission stations, but the special mission of places for brief period, passing on afterwards to other parts. We do NOT wish in any way to interfere with denominational preferences and distinctions, but LEAVE those who get help through our missions to ATTACH themselves to WHATEVER church, chapel, or meeting House they choose (non-exclusive teaching).
A basic tenet was total dependence on God for guidance in their evangelistic crusades and for their material needs. The motto was "Have Faith in God."
~~ NathanB wrote: John Govan, the Faith Mission founder pilgrim/preachers 2x2 apostolic/workers ministry based on Jesus sending his apostles 2 and 2 or going in pairs= The New Testament apostolic ministry like Jesus sent out the 12 apostles two and two in Matthew 10:1-4 and the second group of 70/72 apostles two and two in Luke 10:1-1. The Faith Mission workers depend upon God as their guidance, and on their members and strangers kindness for their material needs. Their motto was "Have Faith in God."
They were itinerant, preaching in pairs with same sex, and sometimes as married workers couples. They held conventions, special and union meetings, stay in converts' homes and money was given by free will offerings. They use these terminologies such as professing, workers, missions, companion, fields, the work, harvest field.... After William Irvine Left the Faith Mission in 1900, the early 2x2 workers and friends copied/kept the Faith Mission 2x2 apostolic workers and many of their terminologies, workers, the friends, conventions, special meetings, gospel meetings, etc....
John George Govan (1861–1927) was a Scottish businessman and evangelist who founded The Faith Mission in 1886.
He was born in Glasgow on 19 January 1861 one of 12 children to William Govan and his wife Margaret Rattray Arthur. They lived at a villa "Southpark" in Hillhead and his father owned and ran a company William Govan & Sons.
He converted to evangelism in 1873 aged only 12. In 1882 he was further influenced by the preaching of Dwight L. Moody whilst on a traveling tour from America. He claimed to be "cleansed of all sin" by 1883.
He was inspired on hearing accounts of the Holiness movement from friends who had attended the Keswick Convention of 1884. With the goal of leading a life wholly devoted to God...
2) Dwight Lyman Moody (February 5, 1837 – December 22, 1899), also known as D. L. Moody, was an American evangelist and publisher connected with the Holiness Movement, who founded the Moody Church, Northfield School and Mount Hermon School in Massachusetts (now Northfield Mount Hermon School), the Moody Bible Institute, and Moody Publishers.
3) Holiness movement:
The Holiness movement refers to a set of beliefs and practices which emerged from 19th-century Methodism, and to a number of Evangelical Christian denominations, parachurch organizations, and movements which emphasize those beliefs as central doctrine. The movement is Wesleyan-Arminian in theology, and is defined by its emphasis on John Wesley's doctrine of a second work of grace leading to Christian perfection. As of 2015 Holiness-movement churches had an estimated 12 million adherents.
The Methodists of the 19th century continued the interest in Christian holiness that had been started by their founder, John Wesley in England. They continued to publish Wesley's works and tracts, including his famous A Plain Account of Christian Perfection. From 1788 to 1808, the entire text of A Plain Account was placed in the Discipline manual of the Methodist Episcopal Church (USA), and numerous persons in early American Methodism professed the experience of entire sanctification, including Bishop Francis Asbury.
Second Great Awakening
By the 1840s, a new emphasis on Holiness and Christian perfection began within American Methodism, brought about in large part by the revivalism and camp meetings of the Second Great Awakening (1790–1840).
~~ NathanB: Cherie Kropp..... The 2x2 workers before the Faith Mission 2x2 Pilgrims/workers were the Holiness Movement workers in 1840s....
Here are photos of the Holiness movement... VERY interesting... very much like the 2x2 friends and workers tent gospel meetings in the early days...
Study Matthew 10: William Irvine/Faith Mission preacher, Fred Hughes/Faith Mission preacher and John Long. Going in Faith Lines. John Long converted to preach the Faith lines in 1898.
*** William Irvine asked John Long "When did God changed this?" John Long replied, "I supposed it has never changed. " (ref. Doug Parker) *** William Irvine was discipline by the Faith Mission in 1898.
John Long was excommunicate from the 2x2 ministry and fellowship in 1907 for being non-exclusive worker.
~~ NathanB: One of the greatest concerns William Irvine and most of the early workers were having with John Long as a 2x2 worker was that he wanted his 2x2 converts to stay in the churches, where they have attended or join the churches of their choice. John Long was a non-exclusive 2x2 worker, by sending his converts to whatever churches or denomination his 2x2 converts want to go.
The 2x2 workers in the past or present do NOT want sent their converts back to the churches, which they came out of Babylon or 40,000 plus denominations religious confusion. If any 2x2 worker today is believing, teaching non-exclusive doctrine publicly or sent their converts to join other churches will be excommunicate from the ministry.
~~ The Division of 1914-1917 : William Irvine LEFT as the leader/worker and fellowship of the 2x2 Church.
~~ August, 1954: Testimony of an ex-2x2 Ida West from North Ireland
An interested person has asked me to tell my story with regard to my faith and the fellowship I have kept. My parents were John and Sarah West brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). My father, for a time previous to his marriage, moved and worked among the Methodists. Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices.
They took the view that Christendom was confusion of which God was not the author. So they decided to go to Christendom and the world the way Jesus sent his apostles to Israel (Matthew 10) and to the world (Matthew 28). This is what the preachers did. My father, who did not go to preach, opened his heart and home to these preachers who sold their possessions, scattered their money to the poor and went out to preach by faith. Their message was repent, believe the gospel, follow the teaching and example of New Testament founders--Christ and the apostles. This move raised the opposition of clergy and leaders among the denominations, e.g. Church of Ireland, Methodists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Plymouth Brethren and others.
The young movement held the course to take was 'Come out of Babylon' which is confusion. By this they meant to refuse fellowship with the world, false teachers and systems because they contradicted the teaching and example of Christ and his apostles. Their opponents held that it was better to stay in and clean up inside; but they ignored the fact that principalities and powers need exposure and triumphing over (Col. 2:15). This could only be done by a fuller manifestation of Christ through willing witnesses which this people proved by bearing their cross representing Christ as He in bearing his cross represented or declared the Father. The movement grew and spread rapidly.
~~ NathanB wrote: Here are some of the testimonies from workers, ex-workers who testified that William Irvine the founder of the 2x2 church in 1897 and Cherie Kropp, owner of the Telling The Truth 2x2 Website believed their testimonies as the gospel truth. They have NOT studied John Long Journal carefully. John Long journal was available and posted on TTT website around the year 2000s.
~~ NathanB: There was no 2x2 worker or the friend in 1897. William Irvine was a Faith Mission preacher in 1897. John Long was a Methodist in 1897. William Irvine converted John Long to join the Faith Mission preachers rank in 1898 but he refused and became Faith Mission Prayer Union member from 1898 and kept his membership until 1915. It seemed John Long, Edward Cooney, George Walker, Jack and Bill Carroll and other workers were movers and shakers of the 2x2 movement more so than William Irvine.
According to Account of The Early Days By Goodhand Pattison Jack, Bill, May Carroll and 70 professed in William Irvine Faith Mission meeting in 1987. They became Faith Mission Prayer Union members. May Carroll joined the Faith Mission preacher in 1899. However, Jack Carroll and May Carroll left the Faith Mission group, and they joined with William Irvine after he left the Faith Mission in 12/1900. Bill Carroll, his wife and two of his younger sisters became 2x2 workers after 1901-3.
Cherie Kropp ex-2x2 TTT website site, and many anti-books, and anti-2x2 websites on the Internet believed William Irvine was the Founder of the 2x2 in 1897. William Irvine copied/continued the Faith Mission 2x2 workers apostolic ministry, which John Govan, Faith Mission Founded in 1886. William Irvine 2x2 workers ministry came from John Govan 2x2 Workers who founded in 1886. Many 2x2 early workers and friends professed through William Irvine's missions when he was a Faith Mission preacher.
William Irvine believed Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry was planned by the Godhead- God the Father, Christ our Lord God Savior, and the Holy Spirit before the foundation of the world and it MUST continue to the time of Jesus 2nd Coming. Most of William Irvine converts came from his Faith Mission days believed the apostolic ministry and the New Testament fellowship to continue to the time of Jesus returns. They followed/joined with William Irvine and the early days 2x2 workers after he LEFT the Faith Mission in 1900. They became 2x2 workers and the friends group/fellowship after 1900s.
Edward Cooney began to baptize his 2x2 converts so eventually the rest of the 2x2 workers did the same. It was Edward Cooney started the Sunday morning worship meeting= Worshipping the Godhead--- God the Father, Christ the Lord God, our Savior and the Holy Spirit. They celebrated Christ's Passover with bread and wine/grapes juice in remembering of Jesus life, death, and resurrection. The 2x2 workers didn't teach their converts to join the churches of their choice after they professed.
~~ 2/7/2014 Whathat, an ex-2x2 wrote on the Truth Message Board.
NathanB: I believe Whathat hits the nail right on the head! This is what I have been trying to say for 25 years..... Cherie K. and MOST ex-2x2 and many 2x2s DO NOT Understand or believe it !! because they believe Cherie Telinng the Truth website is recording the WHOLE truth history of William Irvine.
Whathat wrote: "Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Diagram of the Holiness movement (John Wesley founder)....
Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness.
So, this is from Wiki----
It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church.
Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!)
I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine.
As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians.
~~ NathanB: Most of the workers and friends do NOT believe in Apostolic Succession but what they don't KNOW or Understanding is the 2x2 workers have 117 years plus of 2x2 workers succession since the days of William Irvine.
What Cherie K. failed to tell the readers from the beginning of the creation TTT website in 1990s was/is that Jesus 2x2 apostolic/workers New Testament ministry and fellowship have existed for 1800 years prior to the Faith Mission and 2x2 workers movement.
Here are two of the reasons why William Irvine left the Faith Mission 12/1900
Impartial Newspaper 1910 The Tramp Preachers (2x2)
William Irvine gave up his connection with the Faith Mission for TWO reasons, according to my information 1st because John G. Govan the founder of the Faith Mission 1886 was alleged to have been a "hypocrite" in that while teaching the pilgrims/preachers/workers to live by Faith when he himself had over hundreds of pounds!
2nd reason because Mr. Irvine converts always lapsed and were lost among the clergy by going back to their own congregation or what is KNOWN as churches.
~~ NathanB: The Faith Mission sent their converts back to the churches that they came out of or join any churches they wanted. Join the churches of your choice. Like sending them back to the bottomless pit they just came out of. There were other reasons, the early workers left the Faith Mission, because they did NOT baptize their converts. They did not partake the communion or Bread and Wine in their Sunday worship services.
When lies become more abundant than the truth then the TRUTH hurts... Galatians 4:16 "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
Someone wrote: It takes integrity and courage to tell the truth, especially in place of an opposition. The truth can hurt but it will always yield good fruit when it is accepted and adhered to. It takes integrity to tell the truth.
People want to know the truth; some are more earnest in this pursuit than others. People want truth, not lies. No one likes to be lied to, especially when they are involved in a matter with the one lying. There are those who get caught in a small lie and make up another lie to cover it up. People will say anything to protect their reputation or life. Sometimes they don’t realize what they are doing, because it’s the fallen human nature at work.
Unfortunately, in our day, lies are more common than the truth. There is a raging battle of truth against lies. So it becomes refreshing to hear the truth spoken and promoted.
The Scripture tells us “the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one” (1 John 5:19). Jesus said of Satan in John 8:44: “He does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of it.”
~~ Tragic event on the two Henderson teenagers killed themselves than rather to attend conventions.