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Post by nathan on Sept 9, 2017 21:36:32 GMT -5
From John Long Journal...
~~ 1/ 1900:
Wherever the Faith Mission has a successful mission, they endeavor to form a Prayer Union; and according to their rules, it is not a new sect; neither is intended to be; yet I have known the mention of it to be opposed by the existing sects. I had been a member for two years. When I resigned the colporteur work in November, 1898, William Irvine wanted me to join the staff of Pilgrims. I applied to John G. Govan and was accepted; nevertheless he knew that I was seeking to know the will of God as to whether I should join the mission or go on Matthew Ten Lines.
At the Conference held in Roscrea in December, 1899, on the way home I let the Lord make the choice; and it was on the Matthew Ten side, so I wrote to John G. Govan telling him that I was led in the matter not to join the Faith Mission, and he wrote me a nice letter in return saying that he was glad I was guided in the matter and would like to know in the mean time how it worked out.
Though I often prayed and spoke in a Prayer Union, that was the only mission I ever had in one of them; except in Bennybridge, September, 1915. John. G. Govan put a paragraph in their monthly periodical, Bright Words, I remember the words were to this effect: “There are workers going about holding missions in our Prayer Unions and elsewhere who do not belong to us.” To that paragraph I would just like to add an advice of our Saviour, “Forbid him not, for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.” Mark 9:39-40. From that time, I never renewed my membership.
~~ NathanB: John Long became a Faith Mission Prayer Union member in 1898-1915...
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Post by nathan on Sept 9, 2017 22:17:16 GMT -5
Nate, what church did Govan come out of? What was the name of the 2x2 ministers in your tracing--before Govan? 1) John George Govan (1861–1927) was a Scottish businessman and evangelist who founded The Faith Mission in 1886. He was born in Glasgow on 19 January 1861 one of 12 children to William Govan and his wife Margaret Rattray Arthur. They lived at a villa "Southpark" in Hillhead and his father owned and ran a company William Govan & Sons. He converted to evangelism in 1873 aged only 12. In 1882 he was further influenced by the preaching of Dwight L. Moody whilst on a travelling tour from America. He claimed to be "cleansed of all sin" by 1883. He was inspired on hearing accounts of the Holiness movement from friends who had attended the Keswick Convention of 1884. With the goal of leading a life wholly devoted to God... www.revolvy.com/topic/John%20George%20Govan2) Dwight Lyman Moody (February 5, 1837 – December 22, 1899), also known as D. L. Moody, was an American evangelist and publisher connected with the Holiness Movement, who founded the Moody Church, Northfield School and Mount Hermon School in Massachusetts (now Northfield Mount Hermon School), the Moody Bible Institute, and Moody Publishers. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_L._Moody3) Holiness movement: The Holiness movement refers to a set of beliefs and practices which emerged from 19th-century Methodism, and to a number of Evangelical Christian denominations, parachurch organizations, and movements which emphasize those beliefs as central doctrine. The movement is Wesleyan-Arminian in theology, and is defined by its emphasis on John Wesley's doctrine of a second work of grace leading to Christian perfection. As of 2015 Holiness-movement churches had an estimated 12 million adherents.
Early Methodism
The Methodists of the 19th century continued the interest in Christian holiness that had been started by their founder, John Wesley in England. They continued to publish Wesley's works and tracts, including his famous A Plain Account of Christian Perfection. From 1788 to 1808, the entire text of A Plain Account was placed in the Discipline manual of the Methodist Episcopal Church (USA), and numerous persons in early American Methodism professed the experience of entire sanctification, including Bishop Francis Asbury. Second Great Awakening By the 1840s, a new emphasis on Holiness and Christian perfection began within American Methodism, brought about in large part by the revivalism and camp meetings of the Second Great Awakening (1790–1840). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement
~~ NathanB: Cherie K..... The 2x2 workers before the Faith Mission 2x2 workers were the Holiness Movement workers in 1840s....
Here are photos of the Holiness movement... VERY interesting... very much like the 2x2 friends and workers tent gospel meetings in the early days...
search.aol.com/aol/image?q=Holiness+movement+photos&v_t=webmail-searchbox
~~ Who was William Irvine?
William Irvine, was born in Scotland 1/7/1863 and he died in Jerusalem 3/9/1947. William Irvine family was Presbyterians church members. William Irvine had 3 brothers, and 7 sisters= 11 children total. William Irvine was the second oldest son.
~~ 1893 At the age of 30 years old, he made his choice to serve God in a revival meeting in Motherwell, Scotland by Reverend John McNeill, who was a Methodist evangelist.
~~ 1893-95 William Irvine worked as a coal miner. He studied in the Bible Training Institute in Glasgow for two years. In 1895 he became a worker/pilgrim/preacher with the Faith Mission was founded in 1886 by John G. Govan in Scotland. The Faith Mission, it's an independent and an inter-denominations (a non-exclusive group teaching their converts to join the church of their choice after they were born again or became Faith Mission Union prayers member if they wish to do so.)
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 10, 2017 0:09:31 GMT -5
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 10, 2017 0:34:46 GMT -5
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Post by nathan on Sept 10, 2017 6:39:43 GMT -5
NathanB: I believe Whathat hits the nail right on the head! This is what I have been trying to say for 25 years. Cherie K. and MOST ex-2x2 and many 2x2s DO NOT Understand or believe it !! because they believe Cherie K. the owner of TTT website is recording the WHOLE truth history of William Irvine.
~~ 2/7/2014 Whathat, an ex-2x2 wrote on the Truth Message Board. "Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Diagram of the Holiness movement (John Wesley founder)....www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/holiness/Holiness%20Movement.gifAnyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness.So, this is from Wiki---- It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement Anyway, potentially the lineage is: Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!)I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine. As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians.
~~ Edward Cooney (1867-1960) 2x2 early days worker in (1901) wrote To Impartial Reporter 10/7/1909 1) Edward Cooney wrote, " We (2x2 workers) did NOT start this Jesus Way. It was started and planned by God before we were thought of, and we are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the tradition of men. There was in the day, William Irvine, upon whose heart God's Spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the TRUTH as it is in Jesus." ( By Patricia Roberts book page 43-45) Edward Cooney wrote, "Undoubtedly God has called us and separated us to be His people in the beginning, and most prominent and most used in this calling out a people, William Irvine who at the time of being sent forth to be a prophet, saw more clearly than any of us that the revelation of the Father to each individual child of His is Christ would build His Church, and that the gates of HELL shall NOT prevail against it." (By Patricia Roberts Page 43-45) |
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 10, 2017 11:49:39 GMT -5
You wrote: "Reverend John McNeill, who was a Methodist evangelist." ***McNeill was a Presbyterian minister. See additional info re McNeill: www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/appendixD.phpRE your source: www.revolvy.com/topic/John%20George%20GovanRE: "He converted to evangelism in 1873 aged only 12."How does one convert to "evangelism"? ***Govan converted to Christ at age 12. He didn't become an evangelist til years later. A far better source you could use for Govan's background is the FM history book: Heritage of Revival by Colin Peckham whathat read this book. The book is posted on TTT with FM permission, and you have my permission to quote from it, provided you do so accurately, and you credit the book as your source. LINK: www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/heritage-revival.phpRE: Methodist ***So are you saying the Workers trace back to and came through the Methodist founded by John Wesley? RE Holiness Movement
***What was in this movement that was also used by the Early Workers? |
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Post by Grant on Sept 10, 2017 11:59:02 GMT -5
I was thinking the same thing, Cherie. How does someone convert to evangelism. You become an evangelist not convert to it. Does a person convert to a worker when they profess? At age 12 I converted to a worker?
The Holiest movement was not a church, the church was the Methodist Church which John Wesley started although he remained an Anglican. It traces Methodist back to Anglican which means the workers and Faith Mission go down the Anglican church line which goes right back to the Catholic Church.
Many Churches / Christians attended keswick conventions and still do. It is open for anyone. It is mainstream Christian convention. A couple of workers attended a keswick convention once or was it twice? If someone has attended then it's said their church came from it?
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Post by nathan on Sept 10, 2017 15:28:40 GMT -5
You wrote: "Reverend John McNeill, who was a Methodist evangelist." ***McNeill was a Presbyterian minister. See additional info re McNeill: www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/appendixD.phpRE your source: www.revolvy.com/topic/John%20George%20GovanRE: "He converted to evangelism in 1873 aged only 12."How does one convert to "evangelism"? ***Govan converted to Christ at age 12. He didn't become an evangelist til years later. A far better source you could use for Govan's background is the FM history book: Heritage of Revival by Colin Peckham whathat read this book. The book is posted on TTT with FM permission, and you have my permission to quote from it, provided you do so accurately, and you credit the book as your source. LINK: www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/heritage-revival.phpRE: Methodist ***So are you saying the Workers trace back to and came through the Methodist founded by John Wesley? RE Holiness Movement
***What was in this movement that was also used by the Early Workers?
www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/holiness/Holiness%20Movement.gif
John Wesley adopted the Waldenses/Vaudois Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry .... The Holiness movement and the Faith Mission and the 2x2 William Irvine and friends/ workers adopted the Waldenses/Vaudois 2x2 workers apostolic ministry.
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 10, 2017 15:32:59 GMT -5
The diagram proves nothing. And doesnt answer my question.
Question: What points of belief and practice were in the holiness movement that were also used by the Early Workers?
Looks like it was the other way around.
In 1975, the Waldensian Church joined the Methodist Evangelical Church in Italy to form the Union of Waldensian and Methodist Churches.
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Post by nathan on Sept 10, 2017 15:57:14 GMT -5
The diagram proves nothing. And doesnt answer my question. Question: What points of belief and practice were in the holiness movement that were also used by the Early Workers? Looks like it was the other way around. In 1975, the Waldensian Church joined the Methodist Evangelical Church in Italy to form the Union of Waldensian and Methodist Churches.
John Wesley, Martin Luther and continued by John Calvin, Huldrych Zwingli, and other early Protestant Reformers in 16th century Europe. It is usually considered to have started with the publication of the Ninety-Five Theses by Luther in 1517, lasting until the end of the Thirty Years' War with the Peace of Westphalia in 1648.
Although there had been significant earlier attempts to reform the Roman Catholic Church before Luther – such as those of Jan Hus, Peter Waldo, the waldensians
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 10, 2017 16:20:20 GMT -5
Not an answer to my question...but never mind. You can't because it's not there.
I know there is no connection.
Wm Irvine started his 2x2 ministry around the turn of the 20th century in Ireland...and its well documented
There is no proof his method goes back further than then.
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Post by nathan on Sept 10, 2017 17:03:13 GMT -5
Not an answer to my question...but never mind. You can't because it's not there. I know there is no connection. Wm Irvine started his 2x2 ministry around the turn of the 20th century in Ireland...and its well documented There is no proof his method goes back further than then.
~~ 2/7/2014 Whathat, an ex-2x2 wrote on the Truth Message Board."Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.Diagram of the Holiness movement (John Wesley founder).... www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/holiness/Holiness%20Movement.gifAnyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness. So, this is from Wiki---- It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!)I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine. As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians. ~~ Edward Cooney (1867-1960) 2x2 early days worker in (1901) wrote To Impartial Reporter 10/7/1909 1) Edward Cooney wrote, " We (2x2 workers) did NOT start this Jesus Way. It was started and planned by God before we were thought of, and we are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the tradition of men. There was in the day, William Irvine, upon whose heart God's Spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the TRUTH as it is in Jesus." ( By Patricia Roberts book page 43-45) Edward Cooney wrote, "Undoubtedly God has called us and separated us to be His people in the beginning, and most prominent and most used in this calling out a people, William Irvine who at the time of being sent forth to be a prophet, saw more clearly than any of us that the revelation of the Father to each individual child of His is Christ would build His Church, and that the gates of HELL shall NOT prevail against it." (By Patricia Roberts Page 43-45) |
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 10, 2017 17:27:22 GMT -5
No disrespect to whathat, but ... whathat doesnt know that "William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement."whathat conjectured...He doesnt know how many times Irvine went there, or how much Irvine took in, how he processed it, or how much he agreed with. And you, Nate, took his conjecture and ran with it....
So what if whathat doens't like to call Irvine the founder...many others testify that he was: WILSON McCLUNG: "Our mission was started by William Irwin, a Scotchman, seven or eight years ago. Others followed him. I myself was a Civil Servant in Dublin. I resigned my post, sold all that I had and gave to the poor, and went out to preach." (Wilson McClung, Overseer of New Zealand, Feb. 16, 1905 Impartial Reporter). However McClung contracdicted this statement twenty years later by writing the Editor: "A number of originators, dissatisfied with present-day method sought to get back to the Scriptural way of serving God, both of preachers and people, hence the present existence of 'Christians' (Evening Post, NZ, Jan. 26, 1926). Wilson McClung gave a sworn testimony (Lloyd's Weekly News, December 23, 1906) "The sect, continued McClung, had been in existence eight or nine years, a man named Irvine being 'the first to step out.'" This goes back to the years 1897-1898 EDWARD COONEY: There was in the days gone by, a certain man called William Irvine, upon whose heart Gods spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the truth as it is in Jesus. (Reprinted from Edward Cooney's Testimony reprinted in Selected Letters Hymns and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867-1960, by Patricia Roberts, Pages 43-45) EDWARD COONEY: Undoubtedly God called us and separated us to be His people in the beginning; and most prominent and most used in this calling out a people for God's name was William Irvine who, at the time of his being sent forth to be a prophet, saw more clearly than any of us that the revelation of the Father to each individual child of His is the Rock alone on which Jesus Christ would build his church, and that the gates of Hades should not prevail against it. (Letter by Edward Cooney to My dear Sister dated May, 1930 Reprinted from: Selected Letters, Hymns, and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867- 1960 by Patricia Roberts) JOHN LONG: In John Long's own words, he and Wm. Irvine were "the two instruments used of God at the origin of that movement." "That movement" was the Go-Preacher Movement. The text "As ye go, preach," from Matthew 10:7, paved the way to the name often attached to them of "Go-Preachers." (John Longs Journal, 1907) John Long's Journal December, 1900: About that time William Irvine left the Faith Mission. All who knew the man was acquainted with the fact that he did not covet or desire to start a new sect or Mission; and his leaving the Faith Mission was not without feeling the risk and responsibility of doing so; but circumstances and events rendered it necessary. Some workers who gave up their situations to go fully in the Lord's work were not accepted by the Faith Mission; others did not feel led to join it; and others believed in being more like the pattern as seen in Jesus, and reforming according to the ideal church in the Acts of the Apostles; among the latter was Edward Cooney, who had newly started out, became a strenuous advocate. Most of these workers were either young converts or disciples of William Irvine; and it became impossible for him to be true to the rules of the Faith Mission and to them; so he resigned the one and entered enthusiastically into the other. Footnote in Heresies Exposed: Mr. John Long has written us that he was the man who obtained for William Irvine 'the first opening for a mission in Nenagh, August, 1897.' That 'William Irvine is the name of the original leader of the Go-Preachers. Irvine Weir was one of the first staff of preachers who emigrated to America; these two names seem to have got mixed up.' He declares that the movement dates from 1897. [William C. Irvine used this tract (abridged) in the book Timely Warnings, published 1917; which was renamed: Modern Heresies Exposed, published in 1919; and which was renamed: Heresies Exposed, published in 1921 (29 printings) By W.M.R., Loizeaux Brothers, Neptune, NJ. See Chapter: "The Cooneyites or Go-Preachers and Their Doctrines," Pp 73-78] John Long's Journal April, 1903: At that time, Thomas Craig joined us, and we had a visit from William Irvine; he wanted to ask my advice about the work for he was in a strait between two as to whether he should go from the work as leader; and labour for God independently in a new district; as he shrank back from forming a new mission or sect; and the work and workers at that time were very scattered and disorganized. He was very downcast, and disheartened and humbled before God: he said to me whatever they would do, he would serve the Lord. I encouraged him not to forsake the work which resulted very largely as the outcome of his own testimony: but to call a conference; and get the workers united together; and form the young converts into assemblies where they could get spiritual food, but to be open and unsectarian in attitude towards all other sects, missions and persons; at the same time setting before them an example of Godly living, obedience and conformity to the Word of God. “That ye should earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints,” Jude 3 ALFRED MAGOWAN: During a visit to Wm. Irvine in 1938 by Alfred Magowan, Ed Cooney and R. Irwin, Wm. Irvine made his famous statement to Alfred Magowan: "It was A GREAT EXPERIMENT" to which Alfred replied, "It was A GREAT EXPERIENCE." From Magowan's play titled Outline of the History of a Peculiar People From 1900-1931, pages 11, 25: First Visitor: "They speak of him as a man raised up." Second Visitor: "They trace their spiritual genealogy to him." First Visitor: "I hear they are doing it now, and many have already given up what they call their old profession, and refer to him as the beginning of a new order, as Adam was the beginning of human descent." Second Visitor: "What fools these mortals be!" First Visitor: "He founded The Testimony by himself." (NOTE: Testimony is the name early workers used for the 2x2 sect) WILLIE CLELLAND (also a cousin of Wm. Irvine): When Willie was told "that the workers had given their worldwide membership the idea that they went back to Jesus," he was shocked and said, "For them to have given you the idea that it went right back to Christ--that's an absolute lie. It went back to Bill Irvine...It might be a good question to ask those who say they are 'from the beginning,' 'Who was ahead of William Irvine?' William Irvine was entirely responsible for the creation of this movement. He gathered a few converts around him in Ireland, and he had the idea that he could facilitate the spreading of the gospel by having a few men and women join themselves to him. His ideas of preaching were entirely on his ideas of Matthew 10. And yet, they have the hide to tell one that it went back to time immemorial. It went back to exactly 1899 when the first workers gathered around Bill Irvine." (The Secret Sect by Doug & Helen Parker, page 96, Footnote 32) IRVINE WEIR: "William Irvine’s ideas of preaching and tramp preaching were founded entirely on his idea of the tenth Matthew (sic) where Jesus told them to go, providing themselves neither gold nor silver nor script or staff for their journey, neither two coats, neither shoes nor staves for the workman is worthy of his hire. William believed that what was good for the apostles was also good for the preachers of that day. He forgot that this message was given to the apostles to give to the Jewish nation only." (Feb 21, 1956 Irvine Weir to Doug Parker; The Secret Sect Footnote 5) JACK CARROLL: Our old friend W. I. [William Irvine] is on a different tack now and shows less evidence than ever of having the anointing of God. His extravagances along prophetic lines are very foolish and have no scriptural foundation. I hope none will be disturbed in spirit or mind thro’ this last development. 2 Timothy 2:15-19 have a deeper meaning for me than ever as it is very evident poor William is now following in the footsteps of Hymenaeus and Philetus. How sad it is to see a man once honoured by God AS NO OTHER now carried away by his own stubborn and unbroken spirit and under the influence of the “other spirit,” not the Spirit of God. It is a continual heart break to me to see him where he is, but I do not know a man on earth that he would be willing to take help or counsel from. (Letter by Jack Carroll to Clyde dated April 12, 1919 The above is only the early workers - for many other sources saying Irvine was the founder, go to: www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_index/who_founder.php#earlyworkers |
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Post by nathan on Sept 10, 2017 17:41:09 GMT -5
All these workers you mentioned in your above posts were ALL WRONG! if they believed William Irvine started the 2x2 church in 1897.
Cherie K..... If you were to READ John Long Journal again.... Show me one place where he said William Irvine was the Founder of the 2x2 church in 1897? Thanks.
William Irvine was still a Faith Mission preacher in 1897. John Long was a Methodist in 1897. Jack and May Carroll were converts from the mission of William Irvine, who was a Faith Mission preacher in 1897.
How could William Irvine be a 2x2 founder in 1897 when he tried to recruit John Long to join the Faith Mission Pilgrim/preacher in 1898? William Irvine left the Faith Mission group in 12/1900.
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 10, 2017 18:17:31 GMT -5
No Nate, you weren't there and these others were. You're the one who is wrong.
Too bad you can't admit it.
Many times various people on this board have taken you through how one can start a business before they resign from another.
Same thing applies to way Wm Irvine started his 2x2 belief system before he totally left another.
If you haven't gotten it by now...too bad. I'm not going to reiterate it for the nth time.
From John Long's Journal:
JOHN LONG: In John Long's own words, he and Wm. Irvine were "the two instruments used of God at the origin of that movement." "That movement" was the Go-Preacher Movement. The text "As ye go, preach," from Matthew 10:7, paved the way to the name often attached to them of "Go-Preachers." (John Longs Journal, 1907)
John Long's Journal December, 1900: About that time William Irvine left the Faith Mission. All who knew the man was acquainted with the fact that he did not covet or desire to start a new sect or Mission; and his leaving the Faith Mission was not without feeling the risk and responsibility of doing so; but circumstances and events rendered it necessary. Some workers who gave up their situations to go fully in the Lord's work were not accepted by the Faith Mission; others did not feel led to join it; and others believed in being more like the pattern as seen in Jesus, and reforming according to the ideal church in the Acts of the Apostles; among the latter was Edward Cooney, who had newly started out, became a strenuous advocate. Most of these workers were either young converts or disciples of William Irvine; and it became impossible for him to be true to the rules of the Faith Mission and to them; so he resigned the one and entered enthusiastically into the other.
Footnote in Heresies Exposed: Mr. John Long has written us that he was the man who obtained for William Irvine 'the first opening for a mission in Nenagh, August, 1897.' That 'William Irvine is the name of the original leader of the Go-Preachers. Irvine Weir was one of the first staff of preachers who emigrated to America; these two names seem to have got mixed up.' He declares that the movement dates from 1897. [William C. Irvine used this tract (abridged) in the book Timely Warnings, published 1917; which was renamed: Modern Heresies Exposed, published in 1919; and which was renamed: Heresies Exposed, published in 1921 (29 printings) By W.M.R., Loizeaux Brothers, Neptune, NJ. See Chapter: "The Cooneyites or Go-Preachers and Their Doctrines," Pp 73-78]
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Post by nathan on Sept 10, 2017 19:15:50 GMT -5
No Nate, you weren't there and these others were. You're the one who is wrong. Too bad you can't admit it. Many times various people on this board have taken you through how one can start a business before they resign from another. Same thing applies to way Wm Irvine started his 2x2 belief system before he totally left another. If you haven't gotten it by now...too bad. I'm not going to reiterate it for the nth time.
From John Long's Journal:JOHN LONG: In John Long's own words, he and Wm. Irvine were "the two instruments used of God at the origin of that movement." "That movement" was the Go-Preacher Movement. The text "As ye go, preach," from Matthew 10:7, paved the way to the name often attached to them of "Go-Preachers." (John Longs Journal, 1907) John Long's Journal December, 1900: About that time William Irvine left the Faith Mission. All who knew the man was acquainted with the fact that he did not covet or desire to start a new sect or Mission; and his leaving the Faith Mission was not without feeling the risk and responsibility of doing so; but circumstances and events rendered it necessary. Some workers who gave up their situations to go fully in the Lord's work were not accepted by the Faith Mission; others did not feel led to join it; and others believed in being more like the pattern as seen in Jesus, and reforming according to the ideal church in the Acts of the Apostles; among the latter was Edward Cooney, who had newly started out, became a strenuous advocate. Most of these workers were either young converts or disciples of William Irvine; and it became impossible for him to be true to the rules of the Faith Mission and to them; s o he resigned the one and entered enthusiastically into the other.Footnote in Heresies Exposed: Mr. John Long has written us that he was the man who obtained for William Irvine 'the first opening for a mission in Nenagh, August, 1897.' That 'William Irvine is the name of the original leader of the Go-Preachers. Irvine Weir was one of the first staff of preachers who emigrated to America; these two names seem to have got mixed up.' He declares that the movement dates from 1897. [William C. Irvine used this tract (abridged) in the book Timely Warnings, published 1917; which was renamed: Modern Heresies Exposed, published in 1919; and which was renamed: Heresies Exposed, published in 1921 (29 printings) By W.M.R., Loizeaux Brothers, Neptune, NJ. See Chapter: "The Cooneyites or Go-Preachers and Their Doctrines," Pp 73-78]
The Faith Mission wrote and praised William Irvine and his companion for a successful mission in Nenagh, 8, 1897. It was under the flag of the Faith Mission that Jack, May Carroll professed through William Irvine's mission in Nenagh, 1897.
John Long became a Faith Mission Prayer Union member in 1898-1915... |
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 10, 2017 20:05:34 GMT -5
1897: FEBRUARY - WILLIAM IRVINE MEETS JOHN LONG - John received a letter from the Methodist minister, Rev. Charles Cronhelm, requesting that he "go over to Kilrush for a week end, as he had two Faith Mission Evangelists having meetings and he would like me to meet with them....I responded and...spent the weekend in the fellowship of William Irvine" (Journal, Feb. 1897). This was the first John Long had heard of William Irvine who had newly come to evangelize in Co. Clare.
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Post by Greg on Sept 10, 2017 20:17:47 GMT -5
The Waldesians, Methodists, and Faith Mission still exist. The Friends and Workers are a break-away from the Faith Mission.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 10, 2017 20:19:36 GMT -5
All these workers you mentioned in your above posts were ALL WRONG! if they believed William Irvine started the 2x2 church in 1897.
Cherie K..... If you were to READ John Long Journal again.... Show me one place where he said William Irvine was the Founder of the 2x2 church in 1897? Thanks.
William Irvine was still a Faith Mission preacher in 1897. John Long was a Methodist in 1897. Jack and May Carroll were converts from the mission of William Irvine, who was a Faith Mission preacher in 1897.
How could William Irvine be a 2x2 founder in 1897 when he tried to recruit John Long to join the Faith Mission Pilgrim/preacher in 1898? William Irvine left the Faith Mission group in 12/1900.
you are unbelievable ! You have stated that "All these workers you mentioned in your above posts were ALL WRONG! if they believed William Irvine started the 2x2 church in 1897." As Cherie has said were you there ? Stop trying to fit things into your belief nathan, the history is there and you cannot change it ! |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 10, 2017 20:20:46 GMT -5
Also you still have not answered my question. |
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Post by nathan on Sept 10, 2017 20:31:24 GMT -5
All these workers you mentioned in your above posts were ALL WRONG! if they believed William Irvine started the 2x2 church in 1897.
Cherie K..... If you were to READ John Long Journal again.... Show me one place where he said William Irvine was the Founder of the 2x2 church in 1897? Thanks.
William Irvine was still a Faith Mission preacher in 1897. John Long was a Methodist in 1897. Jack and May Carroll were converts from the mission of William Irvine, who was a Faith Mission preacher in 1897.
How could William Irvine be a 2x2 founder in 1897 when he tried to recruit John Long to join the Faith Mission Pilgrim/preacher in 1898? William Irvine left the Faith Mission group in 12/1900.
you are unbelievable ! You have stated that "All these workers you mentioned in your above posts were ALL WRONG! if they believed William Irvine started the 2x2 church in 1897." As Cherie has said were you there ? Stop trying to fit things into your belief nathan , the history is there and you cannot change it !
Cherie and others should NOT add something wasn't there! William Irvine wasn't no 2x2 founder in 1897. Are you so blind that you can't SEE that either?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 10, 2017 20:31:49 GMT -5
Also you still have not answered my question. have a look at the picture, what does it say ? Stop trying to find a link that doesn't exist ! |
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Post by nathan on Sept 10, 2017 20:33:37 GMT -5
The Waldesians, Methodists, and Faith Mission still exist. The Friends and Workers are a break-away from the Faith Mission.
2) Who did the Waldesians get their 2x2 workers apostolic New Testament ministry doctrine from?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 10, 2017 20:38:11 GMT -5
nathan you are unbelievable ! You have stated that "All these workers you mentioned in your above posts were ALL WRONG! if they believed William Irvine started the 2x2 church in 1897." As Cherie has said were you there ? Stop trying to fit things into your belief nathan , the history is there and you cannot change it !
Cherie and others should NOT add something wasn't there! William Irvine wasn't no 2x2 founder in 1897. Are you so blind that you can't SEE that either?
were you there? No you weren't ! You are the one that is adding to history to try and make it fit with your views. Why is it so hard for you to accept that your church is just another church ? |
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Post by nathan on Sept 10, 2017 20:39:31 GMT -5
Well, documents that I have read from John Long Journal and Goodhand Pattison SAID it differently! They lived in those time and they said.... William Irvine was working for the Faith Mission in 1897.
Cherie and others should NOT add something wasn't there! William Irvine wasn't no 2x2 founder in 1897. Are you so blind that you can't SEE that either?
were you there? No you weren't ! You are the one that is adding to history to try and make it fit with your views. Why is it so hard for you to accept that your church is just another church ?
Cherie K. added William Irvine founder of 2x2 in 1897 date herself! and you believed her William Irvine founding date hook line and sinker! What a fool you're.
If Cherie got the date wrong! and I have found many more things she is off the tracks about the 2x2 teachings also.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 10, 2017 20:41:37 GMT -5
nathan have a look at the picture, what does it say ? Stop trying to find a link that doesn't exist ! how many church groups do you think "looked the same as the F&W" in the 1900's ? Do some research ! |
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Post by nathan on Sept 10, 2017 20:47:13 GMT -5
I DID! Look the pictures and you see how similar the 2x2 workers tent gospel meetings set up! with the Holiness movement.... two workers/preachers standing outside their gospel meeting tent.... and their group workers pictures... Look familiar? how many church groups do you think "looked the same as the F&W" in the 1900's ? Do some research ! |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 10, 2017 20:48:49 GMT -5
nathan were you there? No you weren't ! You are the one that is adding to history to try and make it fit with your views. Why is it so hard for you to accept that your church is just another church ?
Cherie K. added William Irvine founder of 2x2 in 1897 date herself! and you believed her William Irvine founding date hook line and sinker! What a fool you're., I have read Doug Parker's book, which backs up what Cherie has said. Also what you don't seem to get is some of us actually have generations of family who have been part of the 2x2's, some that go back to Ireland from the early days. |
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