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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 15:24:23 GMT -5
Can one do that.?
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Post by nathan on Oct 5, 2018 18:50:15 GMT -5
Oct 5, 2018 snow said: Nathan, You must know that anyone can claim anything, but if they don't have science backing them up, just how likely is it that it's true? I don't think there is anyone on here that does believe that planets can be hollow. Just you. Shouldn't you at least give it some thought? Study up on why planets can't be hollow with suns in them. Don't just believe Dr. Stranges. ~~ NathanB: Snow, There are A LOT of information about the earth is Hollow and MANY other planets as well like Venus, Mars, Jupiter, the moon and so on are found on the Internet these days!
Fantastically Wrong: The Legendary Scientist Who Swore Our Planet Is Hollow
An idea put forth 200 years previous by one of history’s greatest scientific minds: Edmond Halley. You see, Halley noticed that the Earth’s magnetic field is rather unpredictable, with its lines shifting from year to year. And Halley, after whom the famous comet is named, reckoned that the Earth’s hollowness is to blame—we’re standing on an outermost shell with three more concentric shells within. And it’s the poles of these inner shells that throw off our magnetic field. Oh, and according to Halley, there’s undoubtedly life flourishing deep down there. According to Bucknell University’s Duane Griffin in his essay "What Curiosity in the Structure: The Hollow Earth in Science." “Insofar as the publication of the Principia marks the beginning of modern science,” adds Griffin, “Halley’s hollow Earth theory can thus be treated as the first prediction of the modern scientific era.”
OK, well, off to an interesting start. But the idea of a hollow Earth was hardly a new one, Griffin notes. It appears in folklore the world over, not to mention elsewhere in Europe in Halley’s time. A German named Athansius Kircher, for instance, published Mundus Subterraneus in 1664, in which he claimed the Earth contains a central fire (kinda true, really) and vast underground lakes and lava chambers. At the north pole is a gaping vortex that sucks water down to the central fire, where it’s heated and expelled out the south pole, much to the delight of the penguins there, I'd imagine. “The Earth is represented by the outward Circle,” he wrote, “and the three inward Circles are made nearly proportionable to the Magnitudes of the Planets Venus, Mars, and Mercury, all which may be included within this Globe of Earth.” There’s no danger of them ramming into each other, by the way, because like with Saturn’s concentric rings, they’re held in place perfectly well by gravity. Because magnetism is a stronger force than gravity, the inside of the shell must be lined with “Magnetical Matter” that keeps the thing from crumbling and caving in on itself. There is the problem, though, of cracks forming in the outer shell, with gravity sucking ocean water and debris toward the center of the Earth. But Halley reckons that “Internal parts of this Bubble of Earth should be replete with such Saline and Vitrolick Particles” that would plug up a leak (he would later on in 1716 attribute a particularly intense bout of aurora borealis to luminous vapors escaping from a crack in the Earth). www.wired.com/2014/07/fantastically-wrong-hollow-earth/ |
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Post by nathan on Oct 11, 2018 21:39:52 GMT -5
Oct 11, 2018 nathan said: Dmg, Jesus said He is from heaven and God is His heavenly Father. Jesus said he was not from this planet but from morning and evening Star Venus planet. Is Jesus a charlatan and a liar according to you? 1) Dmg wrote: YOU know that I wasn't talking about Jesus, Nathan. WHY do you find necessary to lie about what someone posts? That is why it is so difficult to communicate with you. YOU are misquoting Jesus. Jesus did not say that he was FROM the "morning and evening Star."Jesus said he WAS the "morning and evening Star."
1) NathanB: TELL us, dmg WHAT IS or WHERE IS the morning and Evening Star, today? I have been telling you folks on TMB for years!! Christ is from Interior Venus. Satan is also from Interior planet of Venus, and so did all the angels of God are from inside planet of Venus= they are the human-looking angels of God. There are 7 classifications or levels of angels. Satan and all of the angels of God are the Father and Christ Creators, to be their servants throughout the Universe! (Heb. 1) All of the angels are created to serve the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit. Because of Pride Lucifer, deceived 1/3 of the angels to rebel against the Godhead- Father, Christ and Holy Spirit in heaven. It tells us in Rev. 12:7-9 there was a WAR in heaven between Lucifer Vs. the Michael and his holy angels. They fought against each others in heaven/Venus and Lucifer who later became God's adversary/Satan... Satan lost the battle in heaven, so God banished him and 1/3 of the fallen angels to earth as their home and prison until the judgment day! to be cast into the LAKE of fire. Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Isaiah 14:12 (NIV) "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!" Origin of the term "Lucifer". So where did the name "Lucifer" come from? The Hebrew word translated as "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 in the KJV is heylel (hay-lale', Strong's #1966), and literally means "shining one", "morning star", "light bearer", etc. Isaiah 14:12 is the only place in scripture where this Hebrew word appears. The use of "Lucifer" is ancient, in Latin where it was the term to refer to the planet Venus when it appeared as a star in the morning. Although some early Christian Latin writings refer to "Lucifer", it was the Latin Vulgate that is most responsible for its widespread use. The Vulgate was produced by Jerome (c. 347-420) by translating available Greek and Hebrew manuscripts into Latin. It was started in approximately 382 A.D. and was completed in approximately 405 A.D. It was the scriptures used by the Catholic Church for nearly 1000 years. Job 38:7 (KJV) "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Ecclesiasticus 50:6 (KJV Apocrypha) "He was as the morning star in the midst of a cloud, and as the moon at the full: " Revelation 22:16 (KJV) "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
Revelation 22:16 (NIV) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." www.kjv-only.com/isa14_12.html |
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Post by nathan on Oct 11, 2018 21:56:15 GMT -5
NASA Caught HIDING Something At North Pole! Hollow Earth? 5/20/16
Stop calling the North pole Antarctica its the Arctic. Antarctica is the South pole.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap2Kgglzeec
Here is the Man who entered both interior of Venus planet and interior of planet earth that hardly any human being have done it, including the scientists. There is a central sun inside the Inner Venus, earth planet and in each of planet in our own Milky Way galaxies and perhaps in ALL trillions Galaxies in the Universe.
~~ Dr. Frank Stranges Journeyed/visited to the Interior Planet Venus on Victor One space ship of Commander Valiant Thor in 1990s.
A spacecraft named Victor One is made ready for a journey through space. The people on board look forward to a visit to their home planet. The visitors also look forward with great anticipation to the trip. The Commander gives the word. Vice Commander Teel has already programmed the on board computer with the proper calculations that will transport everyone to the planet Venus. Many sides of Victor One are suddenly transparent as people are seated comfortably observing the events that follow. The ship rises slowly at first, and heads for the blue sky above leaving Lake Mead disappearing from sight far below. Of course, this represents a nightmare to any United States Air Force pilots who might be cruising in the area at that time. A nightmare would result and a decision must be made whether to be bogged down with reports which must be filed, should they elect to report this sighting. Or, should they simply totally ignore the sighting and go on their way wondering in their own minds as to the reality of the craft from another world? Space:
As Victor One picks up speed, the pilot, who is operating the controls with his mind, maintains a precise course for the distant planet. The truth is that his mind must remain on piloting the ship. To allow anything else to enter his mind would indeed throw the ship completely off course. The journey is rather brief as the ship travels through the darkness. The stars in the vast distance testify of the wonder of it all. One could elect to view vast distances through the on board equipment designed for that specific purpose. Communication is established with the planet as the ship draws closer to the opening in the northern portion of Venus. It then plunges downward through the deadly methane gases surrounding Venus. The temperatures have been calculated to be over 800°F. Victor One dives through the opening with no difficulty. Arriving the Interior planet Venus:
Upon landing, Victor One is made secure. Coming down the ramp, all smiles, is the Commander followed by his officers and visitors. Warm greetings are expressed and accompanied by hugs and kisses. It is almost like a homecoming event. Everyone is happy and joyous. The temperature is about 72°. The Central Sun is shielded by a protective covering, which prevents severe exposure. The buildings are lighted with multiple colors. Vehicles small and large are cruising through the air. They are surrounded by a medium force field that prevents them from colliding against each other. We are invited to a special meeting followed by a banquet. Needless to say, our friends from space — especially Vice Commander Donn — have a healthy appetite. We sit comfortably at a large round table and are waited upon by young men and women who have requested this privilege to serve the Commander and his friends. The table is colorfully decorated with beautiful flowers, some of which turned color when touched by human hands. It appears that much planning was exercised in making our visit, one to be long remembered. The Building:
The buildings consist of offices as well as dwelling places. The parliament buildings are completely surrounded by fountains of colorful water. There are also a number of waterfalls that dot the area. The tallest building, is the Government Seat where the Council of Twelve rules with Love and Peace. Waterfalls and many colorful fountains also surround it. Not too many vehicles are parked in the area, only those that are marked by the official seal of the Government. We enjoy the pleasure of meeting the various members of the Council of which Commander Valiant Thor is a member. The Supreme Head of the Council is dressed in a robe bearing the colors of Gold and Purple with a bit of Red and White. It is truly a sight to behold. The remaining members of the Council also appear in full dress colors celebrating our visit. The other buildings, which are dwelling places, represent a series of apartments. Another section of the City is dotted with beautiful two and three-bedroom homes. A body of reflective water touches almost all of them. The Commander Thor’s house is appointed with a lake directly in front with a small stream running along two sides of his home. The rear of the home is equipped with a fireplace and beautiful garden area in which is found a medium-size Meditation Garden. This is one of the most famous resting spots appreciated especially by Dr. Lee also takes great delight in this particular area of the house. Their Daily Lives:
Inasmuch as the Venusians only require about one or two hours sleep per twenty four hours, they have much time for relaxation, sports, companionship with neighbors, and of course, shopping. Whenever a special meeting is called, they all attend expecting wonderful information to be shared with them. Their work consists of a few hours either spent at their respective offices or else in other Government activities. There are no police or fire departments required. They teach and train their children at home. There are times, however, when the central education office will broadcast into the homes with special lessons for children of all ages. Those in charge of government offices are occupied with certain responsibilities, which often include the participation and cooperation of their families. They all enjoy such activities as concerts, picnics, lectures (from visitors as well as their own people), movies, etc. The fauna and flora of the planet testify of the greatness and colorful imagination of the Divine Creator. The colors of the plants and flowers along with the many waterways are deep and rich, also warm and inviting. This is one planet that has been truly blessed in every manner of the word. We Must Now Leave:
Following several meetings with the Council of Twelve, the Commander has issued the word that we must return to our home planet. Of course, this is most difficult to do. However, we all have loved ones, along with responsibilities that must be attended to on Earth. With the knowledge of the possibility of a return trip, we reluctantly return to Victor One for the journey home following another series of warm hugs and kisses. Upon boarding the craft, we look back at the smiling faces of the Venusians knowing full well that this visit will not soon be forgotten. We assume our seats, relax and return home. Victor One rises through the narrow passageway at the top of the planet and we head for home. I do hope and pray that you had enjoyed his brief trip to the planet Venus. Your comments are always welcome. The article presented here is from a past issue of the monthly newsletter entitled The Interspace Link. © Dr. Frank E. Stranges Pastor Frank E. Stranges lecture about his life, the hollow earth, UFO, ETs, how he met Valiant Thor from Interior planet of Venus in 1959 at the Pentagon.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk47O2-_eRc&t=207sPresident Eisenhower’s extraterrestrial guest Valiant Thor at the Pentagon 1957-1960 - Part 1 ExoNews TV Published on Jun 15, 2015 Craig Campobasso is producer of the short film "Stranger at the Pentagon," which is an adaptation of a book with the same title by the Reverend Frank Stranges. Craig’s film shows the dramatic circumstances surrounding the 1957 appearance of a highly evolved human looking extraterrestrial who made contact with the Eisenhower administration. Valiant Thor, allegedly from the interior of Venus, became a VIP guest who stayed at the Pentagon for three years where he discussed a proposal to help humanity prepare join the galactic community. After the Eisenhower administration declined Thor’s proposal for First Contact, he sought out private individuals who might assist in realizing some of its less controversial aspects, from the perspective of the administration. www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3u4MU2LaY8&t=290sPart 2 - youtu.be/S-gJxnQoJ3kMore information about Craig's film, "Stranger at the Pentagon" is available at: www.strangeratthepentagon.com/ |
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 11, 2018 21:57:51 GMT -5
O ct 11, 2018 nathan said:
Dmg, Jesus said He is from heaven and God is His heavenly Father. Jesus said he was not from this planet but from morning and evening Star Venus planet. 1) Dmg wrote: Is Jesus a charlatan and a liar according to you?
YOU know that I wasn't talking about Jesus, Nathan.
WHY do you find necessary to lie about what someone posts?
That is why it is so difficult to communicate with you.
YOU are misquoting Jesus.
Jesus did not say that he was FROM the "morning and evening Star.
Jesus said he WAS the "morning and evening Star."
Is Jesus a charlatan and a liar according to you?
You are miss-quoting me again.
It was yourself who said that.
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Post by nathan on Oct 12, 2018 7:58:19 GMT -5
Oct 11, 2018 nathan said: God is revealing to the workers, the friends and all of you, now. Just like God has revealed it to me NOT too long ago, when I was do the researching on these things.... These revelation came to me, It's NOT any NEW revelation at all.... The information has been here for long, long time but people don't understand or believe it... just like MOST of you on TMB are doing. You can lead the horse to the water but can't force it to drink the water. 1) RT wrote: Oh so now you are saying that God is using YOU to reveal to others that Jesus lives in Venus .... WOW ! Why would God need you to reveal these things to others if that is what he wanted nathan ... ? Maybe you can give us the names of a few of the F&W that this has been revealed to and who actually believe as you do !
~~ NathanB: NOT just me! but MANY (President Eisenhower, Richard Nixon, the Pentagon high ranking administration, and President Jimmy Carter and his high ranking NSA people) I showed you proof many times already! you don't want me to repeat the information again, right? you are and those like you, don't want to accept the TRUTH, you remember, DOUBTING Thomas, right? Testimony of Valiant Thor about Jesus the Almighty God who created him. Jesus Christ sent His Holy Venusians Angels from Venus planet and other planets to assist mankind/Homo Sapiens in this Star Wars battle From the book Stranger/E.T. at the Pentagon by Dr.Frank E. Stranges: Almighty God/Christ created Valiant Thor. The race of "Quello" created by God before Adam and Eve race. Valiant Thor describes a race made by "God Almighty" before human's appeared on earth. According to Valiant Thor they were called the "Quello". They were destroyed by God because of Satan deceived them in destroying the Earth, that we are doing now! There are Nuclear plants, like Fukushima, on the East coast too. They are located by water. Why? Because they use ocean water to keep the heating rods cool. In the second part Valiant Thor was looking over us here on earth having a visitation with God and Jesus the Almighty God. Valiant eventually was allowed to leave Venus and come here to warn the powers that be, that if we don't stop warring and using nuclear bombs we will end up being destroyed. In March 16, 1957-1960 landed in Alexandria Virginia, one of the finest leaders of the Planet Venus, met president Eisenhower and Vice president Nixon. Valiant Thor stayed at the Pentagon for 3 years. www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpelnBNPFYg~~ An intelligent briefing/information was given to President Jimmy Carter that Jesus Christ is the Visitor from Venus planet. listen at 1:44 www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7D8sYpBsooThe Germans, the Japanese, and Italians had gained advanced technologies in the early 1940's (possibly from recovered crashed UFOs or through contact with an alien culture) This article by Vladimir Terziski, President of the American Academy of Dissident Sciences, is a study of the Germans involvement in the exploration of the Moon and Mars. In my extensive research of dissident American theories about the physical conditions on the Moon I have proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is atmosphere, water and vegetation on the Moon, and that man does not need a space suit to walk on the Moon. A pair of jeans, a pullover and sneakers are just about enough. Everything NASA has told the world about the Moon is a lie and it was done to keep the exclusivity of the club from joining by the third world countries. All these physical conditions make it a lot more easier to build a Moon base. Ever since their first day of landing on the Moon, the Germans started boring and tunneling under the surface, and by the end of the war there was a small Nazi research base on the Moon. The free energy tachyon drive craft of the Haunebu-1 and 2 type were used after 1944 to haul people," materiel and the first robots to the construction site on the Moon. www.bibliotecapleyades.net/luna/esp_luna_46.htmThe Nazi Germans had Secret Space program going on for years so did the Americans after WWII. The Americans learned about the NAZI Secret Space program from 1000s Nazi Germans scientists whom they arrested after WW II and they brought them to American during the "Paperclip" operation. They were working more than just holding rockets, and rovers or space shuttles.... Operation Paperclip was a secret program of the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (JIOA) largely carried out by Special Agents of Army CIC, in which more than 1,600 German scientists, engineers, and technicians, such as Wernher von Braun and his V-2 rocket team, were recruited, after the end of World War II, in Germany and taken to the U.S. for government employment, primarily between 1945 and 1959. Many were former members, and some were former leaders, of the Nazi Party.[1][2]
The primary purpose for Operation Paperclip was U.S. military advantage in the Soviet–American Cold War, and the Space Race. The Soviet Union were more aggressive in forcibly recruiting (at gunpoint) more than 2,200 German specialists—a total of more than 6,000 people including family members—with Operation Osoaviakhim during one night on October 22, 1946.[3] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip Bill/William Tompkins Secret Space programs of the Nazi Germans and the Americans since WW II. This man has passed away recently. He interviewed the Nazi Germans Scientists who were involved in the Secret Space Program and he was involved in the U.S. Navy Secret Space program since WWII.
www.exopolitics.org/william-tompkins-us-navy-secret-space-program/Corey Goode was recruited for the Secret Space program for over 20 yrs. He testified of his time with the U.S. Secret Space program, where he traveled to other planets in our Solar system, to other worlds, and galaxies.
video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-iba-1&hsimp=yhs-1&hspart=iba&p=Ron+Thomkin+Secret+Space+program#id=1&vid=2214a88dc8655727ada31a9263a5fa4e&action=click~~ There are MANY Whistle blowers coming forth and telling the public, where they have traveled for and where they spent in the U.S. Secret Space programs. The Chinese, the Russians, and other countries also have their Secret Space programs for YEARS! GERMAN-JAPANESE FLIGHT TO THE MOON AND MARS IN 1945-46
According to the authors of the underground German documentary movie from the Thule society, the only produced craft of the Haunibu-3 type - the 74 meter diameter naval warfare dreadnought - was chosen for the most courageous mission of this whole century - the trip to Mars. The craft was of saucer shape, had the bigger Andromeda tachyon drives, and was armed with four triple gun turrets of large naval caliber (three inverted upside down and attached to the underside of the craft, and the fourth on top of the crew compartments). A volunteer suicide crew of Germans and Japanese was chosen, because everybody knew that this journey was a one-way journey with no return. The large intensity of the electro-magnetogravitic fields and the inferior quality of the metal alloys used then for the structural elements of the drive, was causing the metal to fatigue and get very brittle only after a few months of work of the drive. The flight to Mars departed from Germany one month before the war ended - in April 1945.
It was probably a large crew, numbering in the hundreds, because of the low level of automation and electronic controls inside the saucer. Most of the systems of the craft had to be operated like these on a U-boat of that time - manually. Because the structurally weakened tachyon drives were not working with full power and not all the time, the trip to Mars took almost 8 months to accomplish. An initial short trust towards Mars was probably used to overcome the strong gravitational field close to Earth, after that the craft was "coasting" for 8 months in an elliptical orbit to Mars with its main drives turned off. Later trips to Mars by the joint Soviet-American craft in 1952 and by the Vatican craft of the Marconi project from Argentina in 1956 reached Mars in only 2-3 days, because their drives were working during the whole flight: accelerating in the first half and decelerating in the second.
www.bibliotecapleyades.net/luna/esp_luna_46.htm~~ President Donald Trump established SPACE Force the NEW Arm force in Space.
professing.proboards.com/thread/26949/donald-trump-space-force |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 12, 2018 15:58:05 GMT -5
Thanks Nathan, I needed a laugh this morning.
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Post by nathan on Oct 13, 2018 20:43:42 GMT -5
I found this article written by a 2x2 historian professor in Canada C Jaenens. A great site for many of the 2x2 workers sermons, workers pictures and so on.
Peter Waldo a French man in 1160. A.D. in France was a Romans Catholic, who was converted by the itinerant preachers/Vaudois and he was converted by them.
drive.google.com/file/d/0B0ZEOt3N4eJwRExzTHQ0WDNnZ1E/viewetwww.trutharchive.net/c-j-jaenens---glimpses-in-history-of-simple-christian-peoplesOct 13, 2018 nathan said:Well, did you compare the two? Did the Sumerians 9 ROUNDS planets locations Match with the 9 names planets location of today? The Sumerians did NOT have telescope, space craft go in the heaven 5000 yrs ago to look into SPACE to KNOW where the location of those 9 ROUNDS planets. How did they get it exactly right of the location of the 9 planets in our Solar system? 1) Ellie said: And here we just learned the 9 planets in our solar system NOT too long ago.I learnt there were 8, exclusive of the drawft planets.
NathanB: If you were to do a study or google it on line, you will find out there were 12 planets in our Solar System when God created it. Like there are 12 months in a year, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles, 12 gates to enter in the New city of Jerusalem. The number 12 is God's number of perfection. There was a War in heaven (Rev. 12:7-9) between God and his good angels vs. Satan and the fallen angels, two planets collided and 1 planet Nibiru went off orbit and circle the Solar system and it comes around every 3600 yrs. Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels destroyed God's beautiful perfect creation of the 12 planets in our Solar system. The twelve planet X or Nibiru is here in our Solar system since 1970s and it has cause chaos, Tsunami, bigger earthquakes, Volcano happen more often, floods, deadly Tornado F-3-5 by 1000s, the Typhoons/hurrican the seize of Texas stat more powerful and deadly. This 12th planet is 10 times the seize of earth planet, it caused major shift to our poles, shift techtonic plates, and it messed up the magnetic fields and so on. God is using the 12th planet to cleanse the earth.... The last time the 12th planet was here it had caused Noah's world wide flood. Jesus spoke of his 2nd coming will be like in the days of Noah's world wide flood, the arrival of the 12th planet to cause chaos to wake people up! before His returns to be ready and get in the Ark before God's wrath will pour on the earth because of sins READ (Rev. chapter 16). The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 12
Twelve can be found in 187 places in God's word. Revelation alone has 22 occurrences of the number. The meaning of 12, which is considered a perfect number, is that it symbolizes God's power and authority, as well as serving as a perfect governmental foundation. It can also symbolize completeness or the nation of Israel as a whole. For example, Jacob (Israel) had twelve sons, each of which represented a tribe begun by a prince, for 12 princes total. Ishmael, who was born to Abraham through Hagar, also had twelve princes. God specified that twelve unleavened cakes of bread be placed every week in the temple with frankincense next to each of the two piles that were to be made. The priests were commanded to change the bread every Sabbath day (Leviticus 24). Christ called and choose twelve men to bear witness to what he did and to spread the good news of the gospel to the entire world. After he was raised from the dead, Jesus told the eleven disciples (Judas had killed himself) that God had given him ALL power and authority in both earth and heaven (God's divine authority - Matthew 28:18). Twelve thousand from each tribe of Israel (144,000 total) will receive salvation during the end time's Great Tribulation (Revelation 7). A set of 144,000 (12 x 12,000), possibly the same as those in chapter 7, will be taken from earth in order to serve and follow the Lamb of God (Revelation 14:1 - 5). Christ's bride in Revelation 12, the church, wears a crown containing twelve stars. www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/12.html
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Post by snow on Oct 14, 2018 12:55:13 GMT -5
I found this article written by a 2x2 historian professor in Canada C Jaenens. A great site for many of the 2x2 workers sermons, workers pictures and so on.
Peter Waldo a French man in 1160. A.D. in France was a Romans Catholic, who was converted by the itinerant preachers/Vaudois and he was converted by them.
drive.google.com/file/d/0B0ZEOt3N4eJwRExzTHQ0WDNnZ1E/viewetwww.trutharchive.net/c-j-jaenens---glimpses-in-history-of-simple-christian-peoplesOct 13, 2018 nathan said:Well, did you compare the two? Did the Sumerians 9 ROUNDS planets locations Match with the 9 names planets location of today? The Sumerians did NOT have telescope, space craft go in the heaven 5000 yrs ago to look into SPACE to KNOW where the location of those 9 ROUNDS planets. How did they get it exactly right of the location of the 9 planets in our Solar system? 1) Ellie said: And here we just learned the 9 planets in our solar system NOT too long ago.I learnt there were 8, exclusive of the drawft planets.
NathanB: If you were to do a study or google it on line, you will find out there were 12 planets in our Solar System when God created it. Like there are 12 months in a year, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles, 12 gates to enter in the New city of Jerusalem. The number 12 is God's number of perfection. There was a War in heaven (Rev. 12:7-9) between God and his good angels vs. Satan and the fallen angels, two planets collided and 1 planet Nibiru went off orbit and circle the Solar system and it comes around every 3600 yrs. Satan and 1/3 of the fallen angels destroyed God's beautiful perfect creation of the 12 planets in our Solar system. The twelve planet X or Nibiru is here in our Solar system since 1970s and it has cause chaos, Tsunami, bigger earthquakes, Volcano happen more often, floods, deadly Tornado F-3-5 by 1000s, the Typhoons/hurrican the seize of Texas stat more powerful and deadly. This 12th planet is 10 times the seize of earth planet, it caused major shift to our poles, shift techtonic plates, and it messed up the magnetic fields and so on. God is using the 12th planet to cleanse the earth.... The last time the 12th planet was here it had caused Noah's world wide flood. Jesus spoke of his 2nd coming will be like in the days of Noah's world wide flood, the arrival of the 12th planet to cause chaos to wake people up! before His returns to be ready and get in the Ark before God's wrath will pour on the earth because of sins READ (Rev. chapter 16). The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 12
Twelve can be found in 187 places in God's word. Revelation alone has 22 occurrences of the number. The meaning of 12, which is considered a perfect number, is that it symbolizes God's power and authority, as well as serving as a perfect governmental foundation. It can also symbolize completeness or the nation of Israel as a whole. For example, Jacob (Israel) had twelve sons, each of which represented a tribe begun by a prince, for 12 princes total. Ishmael, who was born to Abraham through Hagar, also had twelve princes. God specified that twelve unleavened cakes of bread be placed every week in the temple with frankincense next to each of the two piles that were to be made. The priests were commanded to change the bread every Sabbath day (Leviticus 24). Christ called and choose twelve men to bear witness to what he did and to spread the good news of the gospel to the entire world. After he was raised from the dead, Jesus told the eleven disciples (Judas had killed himself) that God had given him ALL power and authority in both earth and heaven (God's divine authority - Matthew 28:18). Twelve thousand from each tribe of Israel (144,000 total) will receive salvation during the end time's Great Tribulation (Revelation 7). A set of 144,000 (12 x 12,000), possibly the same as those in chapter 7, will be taken from earth in order to serve and follow the Lamb of God (Revelation 14:1 - 5). Christ's bride in Revelation 12, the church, wears a crown containing twelve stars. www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/12.html You do realize the number 12 has pagan origins, right? All religions have things in common. The Judeo/Christian/Islam religions have taken many different aspects of pagan religions and made their own little stories pieced together from older stories. That's why you see so many similarities with religions older than the Hebrew religion that Christianity and Islam are based on. |
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Post by intelchips on Oct 22, 2018 10:48:42 GMT -5
You do realize the number 12 has pagan origins, right? All religions have things in common. The Judeo/Christian/Islam religions have taken many different aspects of pagan religions and made their own little stories pieced together from older stories. That's why you see so many similarities with religions older than the Hebrew religion that Christianity and Islam are based on. Snow, I think if more people could understand the beginning of the religion as it actual happened and not as added to over the generations where it became dogma then most of these discussion would be unnecessary and we could get back to discussing hollow earth and lost planets, you know the really important topics: The earliest story of Jesus was what we call the Gospel of Mark. (meaning its attributed to Mark, but in reality none know who wrote it). There may have been versions before but no concrete evidence for them exists. And of most importance is the fact that in the Gospel itself Mark doesn’t seem to know of any source material either. In total the Gospel seems to be an original created by Mark. Thus, when we find later Gospels they are naught but more distance evolutions of the Gospel of Mark we know he is the source. This then leads us to the fact that Mark is the first to mention of the story of Jesus. Where did he get this story or idea for the story? Most historians find Mark to have been writing after the Jewish War (70 AD) by about twenty to thirty years after Paul and forty years after the origin of the religion of which the Gospel is the subject of. In addition history provides no evidence that any eyewitness was alive after seventy AD that could testify on the facts of the Jesus who is the subject of Mark’s Gospel. None of you may agree with me on this subject. However, I find that many of the stories in Mark are taken from stories that are found in what we call the Old Testament. To my view it seems that stories of Moses and others about Elijah and Elisha have been updated to fit into the modern era in which Mark is writing. Mark changed the historical context, the cultural context , the value and meaning of the story and placed Jesus as the central character in his story. You may well ask why Mark would do such a thing. And the answer is simple. The older versions of the stories were tired and worn and out of step with more modern times and the people had lost the connection to the stories from so far back in time. Thus, we have a new Moses, a new Elijah acting in ways that are meaningful to the era of 70-80 AD. And when I say that Mark also threw in some Homeric ideas you will cry Oh no! Not possible. But remember Mark is writing in Greek. And it is not some countrified style of Greek either. It is plain to see that Mark was a master of Greek and well educated and when he writes as a hick it is like Mark Twain writing for the masses from an educated background. My Point being anyone that well founded in Greek would have known all the stories of Homer backwards and forwards.. Even though Mark borrowed ideas from other sources to form his theme, he alone is the beginning of the story of Jesus. What about Paul you ask. Paul knew not a historical Jesus. Paul's Jesus was from revelation and Paul knew not of any historical stores of Jesus's family, childhood or the lost years. So my point is if the majority of us can't even get this correct what chance do we have to figure out what worker started the truth? For me I'm coming down on Cherie's side, but I do wish she would post up about the real story of the hollow earth. Cheers |
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Post by snow on Oct 23, 2018 14:09:27 GMT -5
You do realize the number 12 has pagan origins, right? All religions have things in common. The Judeo/Christian/Islam religions have taken many different aspects of pagan religions and made their own little stories pieced together from older stories. That's why you see so many similarities with religions older than the Hebrew religion that Christianity and Islam are based on. Snow, I think if more people could understand the beginning of the religion as it actual happened and not as added to over the generations where it became dogma then most of these discussion would be unnecessary and we could get back to discussing hollow earth and lost planets, you know the really important topics: The earliest story of Jesus was what we call the Gospel of Mark. (meaning its attributed to Mark, but in reality none know who wrote it). There may have been versions before but no concrete evidence for them exists. And of most importance is the fact that in the Gospel itself Mark doesn’t seem to know of any source material either. In total the Gospel seems to be an original created by Mark. Thus, when we find later Gospels they are naught but more distance evolutions of the Gospel of Mark we know he is the source. This then leads us to the fact that Mark is the first to mention of the story of Jesus. Where did he get this story or idea for the story? Most historians find Mark to have been writing after the Jewish War (70 AD) by about twenty to thirty years after Paul and forty years after the origin of the religion of which the Gospel is the subject of. In addition history provides no evidence that any eyewitness was alive after seventy AD that could testify on the facts of the Jesus who is the subject of Mark’s Gospel. None of you may agree with me on this subject. However, I find that many of the stories in Mark are taken from stories that are found in what we call the Old Testament. To my view it seems that stories of Moses and others about Elijah and Elisha have been updated to fit into the modern era in which Mark is writing. Mark changed the historical context, the cultural context , the value and meaning of the story and placed Jesus as the central character in his story. You may well ask why Mark would do such a thing. And the answer is simple. The older versions of the stories were tired and worn and out of step with more modern times and the people had lost the connection to the stories from so far back in time. Thus, we have a new Moses, a new Elijah acting in ways that are meaningful to the era of 70-80 AD. And when I say that Mark also threw in some Hermina ideas you will cry Oh no! Not possible. But remember Mark is writing in Greek. And it is not some countrified style of Greek either. It is plain to see that Mark was a master of Greek and well educated and when he writes as a hick it is like Mark Twain writing for the masses from and educated background. My Point being anyone that well founded in Greek would have known all the stories of Homer backwards and forwards.. Even though Mark borrowed ideas from other sources to form his theme, he alone is the beginning of the story of Jesus. What about Paul you ask. Paul knew not a historical Jesus. Paul's Jesus was from revelation and Paul knew not of any historical stores of Jesus's family, childhood or the lost years. So my point is if the majority of us can't even get this correct what chance do we have to figure out what worker started the truth? For me I'm coming down on Cherie's side, but I do wish she would post up about the real story of the hollow earth. Cheers That lines up with what I've read and researched as well. Pauline Christianity is more what we see today than the earlier synoptic gospels. Christianity has evolved over time to what we see today. I think those first Christians is they could see what their religion turned into today, wouldn't even recognize it. |
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Post by intelchips on Oct 24, 2018 8:33:46 GMT -5
If I were to write a Gospel and tell you the story of a man living in the year of AD 66 about four years before the Jewish war with Rome was started and that this man was going around the city of Jerusalem talking about the end times I think with some little practice I could make it seem like a 5th Synoptic Gospel.
The Gospel of IntelChips
Verse 1. Four years before the war began, when our city was enjoying profound peace and prosperity unlike that which we had never seen before, there came to the feast at which it is the custom of all Jews to erect tabernacles to God, one Jesus, a rude peasant, who suddenly began to cry out, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the sanctuary, a voice against the bridegroom and the bride, a voice against all the people."
Verse 2. Day and night he went about all the alleys of our city with this cry on his lips.
Verse 3. This peasant's outbursts became so disturbing in the Great City that some of the leading citizens, incensed at these ill-omened words, arrested the fellow and severely chastised him. But he, without a word on his own behalf or for the private ear of those who smote him, only continued his cries as before.
Verse 4. Thereupon, the magistrates, supposing, as was indeed the case, that the man was under some supernatural impulse, brought him before the Roman governor; there, although flayed to the bone with scourges, he neither sued for mercy nor shed a tear, but, merely introducing the most mournful of variations into his utterances, responded to each lashing with "Woe to Jerusalem!" When the governor, asked him who and whence he was and why he uttered these cries, he answered him never a word, but unceasingly reiterated his dirge over the city, until the governor pronounced him a maniac and let him go.
Verse 5. During the whole period leading up to the outbreak of the war he neither approached nor was seen talking to any of the citizens, but daily, like a prayer that he had coined, repeated his lament, "Woe to Jerusalem!" He neither cursed any of those who beat him from day to day, nor blessed those who offered him food: to all men that melancholy presage was his one reply. His cries were loudest at the festivals.
Verse 6. For seven years and five months he continued his wail, his voice never flagging nor his strength exhausted, until in the siege, having seen his presage verified, he found his rest. For, while going his round and shouting in piercing tones from the wall, "Woe once more to the city and to the people and to the temple," as he added a last word, "and woe to me also," a stone hurled from the ballista struck and killed him on the spot. So with those ominous words still upon his lips he passed away.
Verse 7. And after three days his spirit was taken up to heaven and there he sets waiting to judge them many who refused to listen to his message.
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Post by nathan on Oct 28, 2018 15:14:20 GMT -5
Who Wrote the Gospel Mark, the Gospel of Matthew, the Gospel of Luke and Acts, and the Gospel of John?
The answer is found from reading the early church fathers teachings.... who were disciples/co-workers with the 12 and 70 apostles.
professing.proboards.com/thread/27387/wrote-gospel-mark-matthew-luke?page=1&scrollTo=811148Elohim (Hebrew: אֱלֹהִים [ʔɛloːˈhim]) in the Hebrew Bible refers to deities, and is one of the many names or titles for God in the Hebrew Bible. The word is identical to the usual plural of el, meaning gods or magistrates. Most uses of the term Elohim in the later Hebrew text imply a view that is at least monolatrist at the time of writing, and such usage (in the singular), as a proper title for the supreme deity, is generally not considered to be synonymous with the term elohim, "gods" (plural, simple noun). Hebrew grammar allows for this nominally plural form to mean "He is the Power (singular) over powers (plural)", or roughly, "God of gods". Elohim is a grammatically plural noun for "gods" or "deities" in Biblical Hebrew. In Hebrew, the ending -im normally indicates a masculine plural. However, when referring to the Hebrew God, Elohim is usually understood to be grammatically singular (i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective). In Modern Hebrew, it is often referred to in the singular despite the -im ending that denotes plural masculine nouns in Hebrew. The word el (singular) is a standard term for "god" in Aramaic. The Hebrew Bible uses various names for God. According to the documentary hypothesis these variations are the products of different source texts: Elohim is the name of God. J presents Yahweh anthropomorphically: for example, walking through the Garden of Eden looking for Adam and Eve. The Elohist often presents Elohim as more distant and frequently involves angels, as in the Elohist version of the tale of Jacob's Ladder, in which there is a ladder to the clouds, with angels climbing up and down, with Elohim at the top. In the Jahwist tale, Yahweh is simply stationed in the sky, above the clouds without the ladder or angels. Likewise, the Elohist describes Jacob wrestling with an angel. Elohim occurs frequently throughout the Torah. In some cases (e.g. Exodus 3:4, "Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush ..."), it behaves like a singular noun in Hebrew grammar, and is then generally understood to denote the single God of Israel. In other cases, Elohim acts as an ordinary plural of the word Eloah, and refers to the polytheistic notion of multiple gods (for example, Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods before me"). The word Elohim occurs more than 2500 times in the Hebrew Bible. Elohim With plural verb
In 1 Samuel 28:13, elohim is used with a plural verb. The witch of Endor told Saul that she saw elohim ascending (olim עֹלִים, plural verb) out of the earth. In Genesis 20:13, Abraham, before the polytheistic Philistine king Abimelech, says that "Elohim (translated as God) caused (התעו, plural verb) me to wander". Elohim With singular verb
Elohim, when meaning the God of Israel, is mostly grammatically singular, and is commonly translated as "God", and capitalised. For example, in Genesis 1:26, it is written: "Then Elohim (translated as God) said (singular verb), 'Let us (plural) make (plural verb) man in our (plural) image, after our (plural) likeness'". Wilhelm Gesenius and other Hebrew grammarians traditionally described this as the pluralis excellentiae (plural of excellence), which is similar to the pluralis majestatis (plural of majesty, or "Royal we"). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim
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Post by nathan on Nov 20, 2018 21:29:34 GMT -5
Question: "Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?"
Answer: There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. The concept that Jesus went to hell after His death on the cross comes primarily from the Apostles’ Creed, which states, “He descended into hell.” There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to “hell.” In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the realm of the dead. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent of sheol is hades, which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11–15 gives a clear distinction between hades and the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades, then, is a temporary place. Many people refer to both hades and the lake of fire as “hell,” and this causes confusion. Jesus did not go to a place of torment after His death, but He did go to hades. Sheol/hades was a realm with two divisions—a place of blessing and a place of judgment (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27–31). The abodes of the saved and the lost are both generally called “hades” in the Bible. The abode of the saved is also called “Abraham’s bosom” (KJV) or “Abraham’s side” (NIV) in Luke 16:22 and “paradise” in Luke 23:43. The abode of the unsaved is called “hell” (KJV) or “Hades” (NIV) in Luke 16:23.
The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (Luke 16:26). When Jesus died, He went to the blessed side of sheol and, from there, took the believers with Him to heaven (Ephesians 4:8–10). The judgment side of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8–10 and 1 Peter 3:18–20. Some of the confusion has arisen from such passages as Psalm 16:10–11 as translated in the King James Version: “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. . . . Thou wilt show me the path of life.” “Hell” is not a correct translation in this verse. A correct reading would be “the grave” or “sheol.” Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43); He did not say, “I will see you in hell.” Jesus’ body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to be with the blessed in sheol/hades. Unfortunately, in many versions of the Bible, translators are not consistent, or correct, in how they translate the Hebrew and Greek words for “sheol,” “hades,” and “hell.” Some have the viewpoint that Jesus went to “hell” or the suffering side of sheol/hades in order to further be punished for our sins. This idea is completely unbiblical. It was the death of Jesus on the cross that sufficiently provided for our redemption. It was His shed blood that effected our own cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7–9). As He hung there on the cross, He took the sin burden of the whole human race upon Himself. He became sin for us: “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). This imputation of sin helps us understand Christ’s struggle in the garden of Gethsemane with the cup of sin which would be poured out upon Him on the cross. As Jesus neared death, He said, “It is finished” (John 19:30). His suffering in our place was completed. His soul/spirit went to hades (the place of the dead). Jesus did not go to “hell” or the suffering side of hades; He went to “Abraham’s side” or the blessed side of hades. Jesus’ suffering ended the moment He died. The payment for sin was paid. He then awaited the resurrection of His body and His return to glory in His ascension. Did Jesus go to hell? No. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes.
www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-go-to-hell.htmlWas Christ from the Interior planet of the Venus? did Christ/Jesus went back to Venus after he paid the ransom price on Calvary Cross. It seems he has returned to where He came from his home with the Father in heaven.
professing.proboards.com/thread/27506/christ-interior-planet-venus
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Post by nathan on Nov 25, 2018 1:23:37 GMT -5
1) Nov 24, 2018 CherieKropp said: To his credit, Dr. Jaenen openly stated he was unable in his research to trace any Christian group, itinerant preachers or meetings in an unbroken line from the first century to now: “In our efforts to trace the continuity of primitive Christian ideals over the centuries, no unbroken successions or continuous activities of a particular identifiable group have been documented.” (p. 535) “The thesis of a ‘remnant church’ ALSO remains problematical... we have been unable to establish from the documentary sources accessible to us a continuous, unbroken chain of either conventicles [meetings or gatherings] or poor itinerant preachers from the early centuries to the present.” (p. 538) 2) Roselyn T said: Nathan, When you come up with a signed letter from a Male worker or an Overseer to say they believe the 2x2 church goes back to the Waldensians and that the 2x2 church has a "kinship" with them we might believe you nathan ! Goodness me the man who wrote the book you are trying to say proves it disagrees with you ! ~~ NathanB: RT have you READ the book, Apostles Doctrine and Fellowship if you have NOT, you should NOT take Cherie K. words for it. There are much more information on there that it takes too long to post/type by hands. TOO many people take Cherie K. website TTT as the gospel truth without carefully search these things for themselves. HOOK, line and sinker!
The rest of page 538.... Cornelius continue to WRITE.... Nevertheless, we have NOT discounted entirely the thesis of apostolic succession. We have come to understand it in a different manner that the commonly enunciated dogma. What we can conclude is that there HAS BEEN a chain of witnesses of the apostolic doctrine and fellowship over the CENTURIES! This concept was expressed by Dr. H. L. Martensen,... in his conception of apostolic succession of a holy chain from the apostolic age to his days, he made no reference to a continuity of ordinations or a authority transmitted from ordainer to ordinand. Rather, the chain consisted of witnesses of Finder of truth in EACH CENTURY.
From the Pilgrim Church chapter V.
70-1700 A.D.
gutenberg.net.au/ebooks10/1000351h.htmlIn the Alpine valleys of Piedmont there had been for centuries congregations of believers calling themselves brethren, who came later to be widely known as Waldenses, or Vaudois, though they did not themselves accept the name. They traced their origin in those parts back to Apostolic times. Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulician, and other churches, these were not 'reformed', never having degenerated from the New Testament pattern as had the Roman, Greek, and some others, but having always maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition. From the time of Constantine there had continued to be a succession of those who preached the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time. This accounts for the large bodies of Christians, well established in the Scriptures and free from idolatry and the other evils prevailing in the dominant, professing Church, to be found in the Taurus Mountains and the Alpine valleys. These latter, in the quiet seclusion of their mountains, had remained unaffected by the development of the Roman Church. They considered the Scriptures, both for doctrine and church order, to be binding for their time, and not rendered obsolete by change of circumstances. It was said of them that their whole manner of thought and action was an endeavour to hold fast the character of original Christianity. One mark of their not being "reformers" is to be observed in their comparative tolerance of the Roman Catholic Church, a reformer almost inevitably emphasizing the evil of that from which he has separated, in order to justify his action. In their dealings with contemporaries who seceded from the Church of Rome, as well as later in their negotiations with the reformers of the Reformation, this acknowledgment of what was good in the Church that persecuted them is repeatedly seen. The inquisitor Reinerius, who died in 1259, has left it on record: "Concerning the sects of ancient heretics, observe, that there have been more than seventy: all of which, except the sects of the Manichaeans and the Arians and the Runcarians and the Leonists which have infected Germany, have through the favour of God, been destroyed. Among all these sects, which either still exist or which have formerly existed, there is not one more pernicious to the Church than that of the Leonists: and this for three reasons. The first reason is; because it has been of longer continuance, for some say that it has lasted from the time of Sylvester, others, from the time of the Apostles. The second reason is: because it is more general, for there is scarcely any land, in which this sect does not exist. The third reason is; because, while all other sects, through the enormity of their blasphemies against God, strike horror into the hearers, this of the Leonists has a great semblance of piety, inasmuch as they live justly before men, and believe every point well respecting God together with all the articles contained in the creed: only they blaspheme the Roman Church and clergy, to which the multitude of the laity are ready enough to give credence." A later writer, Pilichdorf, also a bitter opponent, says that the [Page 91: Antiquity of Waldenses]persons who claimed to have thus existed from the time of Pope Sylvester were the Waldenses. Some have suggested that Claudius, Bishop of Turin, was the founder of the Waldenses in the mountains of Piedmont. He and they had much in common, and must have strengthened and encouraged one another, but the brethren called Waldenses were of much older origin. A Prior of St. Roch at Turin, Marco Aurelio Rorenco, was ordered in 1630 to write an account of the history and opinions of the Waldenses. He wrote that the Waldenses are so ancient as to afford no absolute certainty in regard to the precise time of their origin, but that, at all events, in the ninth and tenth centuries they were even then not a new sect. And he adds that in the ninth century so far from being a new sect, they were rather to be deemed a race of fomenters and encouragers of opinions which had preceded them. Further, he wrote that Claudius of Turin was to be reckoned among these fomenters and encouragers, inasmuch as he was a person who denied the reverence due to the holy cross, who rejected the veneration and invocation of saints, and who was a principal destroyer of images. In his commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians, Claudius plainly teaches justification by faith, and points out the error of the Church in departing from that truth. The brethren in the valleys never lost the knowledge and consciousness of their origin and unbroken history there. When from the fourteenth century onward the valleys were invaded and the people had to negotiate with surrounding rulers, they always emphasised this. To the Princes of Savoy, who had had the longest dealings with them, they could always assert without fear of contradiction the uniformity of their faith, from father to son, through time immemorial, even from the very age of the Apostles. To Francis I of France they said, in 1544: "This Confession is that which we have received from our ancestors, even from hand to hand, according as their predecessors in all time and in every age have taught and delivered." A few years later, to the Prince of Savoy they said: "Let your Highness consider, that this religion in which we live is not merely our religion of the present day, or a religion discovered for the first time only a few years ago, as our enemies falsely pretend, but it is the religion of our fathers and of our grandfathers, yea, of our forefathers and of our predecessors still more remote. It is the religion of the Saints and of the Martyrs, of the Confessors and of the Apostles."
When they came into contact with the Reformers in the sixteenth century they said: "Our ancestors have often recounted to us that we have existed from the time of the Apostles. In all matters nevertheless we agree with you, and thinking as you think, from the very days of the Apostles themselves, we have ever been consistent respecting the faith."
On the return of the Vaudois to their valleys, their leader, Henri Arnold, in 1689 said: "That their religion is as primitive as their name is venerable is attested even by their adversaries," and then quotes Reinarius the Inquisitor who, in a report made by him to the Pope on the subject of their faith, admits, "they have existed from time immemorial." "It would not," Arnold continues, "be difficult to prove that this poor band of the faithful were in the valleys of Piedmont more than four centuries before the appearance of those extraordinary personages, Luther and Calvin and the subsequent lights of the Reformation. Neither has their Church ever been reformed, whence arises its title of Evangelic. The Vaudois are in fact descended from those refugees from Italy, who, after St. Paul had there preached the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and fled, like the woman mentioned in the Apocalypse, to these wild mountains, where they have to this day handed down the Gospel, from father to son, in the same purity and simplicity as it was preached by St. Paul."
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Post by nathan on Nov 25, 2018 1:28:03 GMT -5
1160-1318 A.D
Peter Waldo
Peter Waldo of Lyons, a successful FRENCH Man merchant and banker, was aroused to see his need of salvation by the sudden death of one of the guests at a feast he had given. He became so much interested in the Scriptures that (1160) he employed clerks to translate parts into the Romance dialect. He had been touched by the story of St. Alexius, of whom it was related that he sold all that he had and went on a pilgrimage to the Holy Land.
A theologian directed Waldo to the Lord's words in Matthew 19. 21: "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow Me." He therefore (1173) made over his landed property to his wife, sold the remainder and distributed it among the poor. For a time he devoted himself to the study of the Scriptures and then (1180) gave himself to travelling and preaching, taking as a guide the Lord's words: "He sent His disciples two and two before His face into every city and place whither He Himself would come. Therefore said He unto them, The harvest truly is great but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that He would send forth labourers into His harvest. Go your ways: behold I send you forth as lambs among wolves. Carry neither purse nor scrip nor shoes: and salute no man by the way."
Companions joined him, and, travelling and preaching in this way, came to be known as the "Poor Men of Lyons". Their appeal for recognition (1179) to the third Lateran Council, under Pope Alexander III, had already been scornfully refused. They were driven out of Lyons by Imperial edict and (1184) excommunicated. Scattered over the surrounding countries, their preaching proved very effectual, and "Poor Men of Lyons" became one of the many names attached to those who followed Christ and His teaching.
An inquisitor, David of Augsburg, says: "The sect of the Poor Men of Lyons and similar ones are the more dangerous the more they adorn themselves with the appearance of piety ... their manner of life is, to outward appearance, humble and modest, but pride is in their hearts"; they say they have pious men among them, but do not see, he continues, "that we have infinitely more and better than they, and such as do not clothe themselves in mere appearance, whereas among the heretics all is wickedness covered by hypocrisy." An old chronicle tells how as early as the year 1177 "disciples of Peter Waldo came from Lyons to Germany and began to preach in Frankfurt and in Nüremberg, but because the Council in Nüremberg was warned that they should seize and burn them, they disappeared into Bohemia."
The relations of Peter Waldo with the Waldenses were so intimate that many called him the founder of a sect of that name, though others derive the name from the Alpine valleys, Vallenses, in which so many of those believers lived. It is true that Waldo was highly esteemed among them, but not possible that he should have been their founder, since they founded their faith and practice on the Scriptures and were followers of those who from the earliest times had done the same. For outsiders to give them the name of a man prominent among them was only to follow the usual habit of their opponents, who did not like to admit their right to call themselves, as they did, "Christians" or "brethren". Peter Waldo continued his travels and eventually reached Bohemia, where he died (1217), having laboured there for years and sown much seed, the fruit of which was seen in the spiritual harvest in that country at the time of Huss and later. The accession of Peter Waldo and his band of preachers gave an extraordinary impetus to the missionary activities of the Waldenses, who until this time had been somewhat isolated in their remote valleys, but now went everywhere preaching the Word.
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Post by nathan on Nov 28, 2018 1:48:33 GMT -5
Nov 27, 2018 nathan said: To Cherie: E. H. Broadbent gave the sources at the bottom of the pages in his book the Pilgrim Church. I have seen it... ~~ Cherie K. wrote: FYI, there are no footnotes/sources for the quotes I gave above in Broadbent's book. I have Broadbents book reprinted in 1991. Chapter 5 Waldenses and Abigenses (pages 107-122) has 3 Endnotes on page 122. 1. pg 107 refers to the Church of Rome 2. pg 109 refers to Albigenses 3. pg 117 refers to Council of Romish Church at Tours of 1163. What's your timeline of the 2x2 ministry since the Apostles? ** NathanB: I will give you the list of my sources again to you so you can do your own investigation. Sources from the Pilgrim Church book:
Latin Christianity by Dean Milman The Ancient Vallense and Albigenses by G.S. Faber Facts and documents illustrative of the the History, doctrine and rite of the Ancient Albigenses and Waldenses by S.R. Maitland The below sources where Broadbent got the documents and history for the Pilgrim Church book on line
gutenberg.net.au/ebooks10/1000351h.htmlIn the beginning of the History, "The Ante-Nicene Christian Library" provides a store of information from which much has been drawn. When the time of Marcion is reached, "Marcion Das Evangelium vom Fremden Gott" by Ad. v. Harnack is used, and for matters connected with the Roman Empire, "East and West Through Fifteen Centuries" by Br.-Genl. G. F. Young C. B. For Augustine "A Select Library of the Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church" translated and annotated by J. C. Pilkington, M. A. edited by Philip Schaff, is a guide. "Latin Christianity" by Dean Milman, helps in several periods. We are indebted to Georg Schepss for the true history of Priscillian and his teaching. His book, "Priscillian ein Neuaufgefundener Lat. Schriftsteller des 4 Jahrhunderts" describes his discovery in the Würzburg University, in 1886, of the important MS. of the Spanish Reformer. This MS. is examined and explained by Friedrich Paret in his "Priscillianus Ein Reformator des Vierten Jahrhunderts Eine Kirchengeschichtliche Studie zugleich ein Kommentar zu den Erhaltenen Schriften Priscillians", and much has been drawn from this valuable commentary. Important information as to those called Paulicians is given in "Die Paulikianer im Byzantischen Kaiserreiche etc." by Karapet Ter-Mkrttschian, Archdeacon of Edschmiatzin, the centre of the Armenian Church. An invaluable book for the period is "The Key of Truth A Manual of the Paulician Church of Armenia" translated and edited by F. C. Conybeare. The document was discovered by the translator in 1891 in the library of the Holy Synod at Edjmiatzin; his notes and comments are of the utmost interest and value. The discovery of the "Key of Truth" raises the hope that other documents illustrating the faith and teaching of the brethren may yet be found. The history of the Bogomils in the Balkan Peninsula is largely drawn from "An Official Tour Through Bosnia and Herzegovina" by J. de Asboth, Member of the Hungarian Parliament, and from "Through Bosnia and the Herzegovina on Foot etc." by A. J. Evans, the distinguished traveller and antiquarian, later Sir Arthur Evans. "Essays on the Latin Orient" by William Miller, has also been made use of. The chapter on the Eastern Churches, especially the Nestorian, owes very much to "Le Christianisme dans l'Empire Perse sous la Dynastie Sassanide" by J. Labourt; to "The Syrian Churches" by J. W. Etheridge; and to "Early Christianity Outside the Roman Empire" by F. C. Burkitt M. A. The account of the Synod of Seleucia is taken chiefly from "Das Buch des Synhados" by Oscar Braun, while "Nestorius and his Teachings" by J. Bethune-Baker, has supplied most of what is given about Nestorius, and "The Bazaar of Heraclides of Damascus" by the same author, has especially been quoted; these give a vivid picture of Nestorius and should be read in full if possible. For the description of the spread of the Nestorians into China, "Cathay and the Way Thither" by Col. Sir Henry Yule, published by the Hakluyt Society, is of great interest and has been freely drawn upon. Coming to the times of the Waldenses and Albigenses, "The Ancient Vallenses and Albigenses" by G. S. Faber, and "Facts and Documents illustrative of the History Doctrine and Rites of the Ancient Albigenses and Waldenses" by S. R. Maitland, have been referred to very fully. Perhaps the largest use has been made of the works of Dr. Ludwig Keller, especially for the history and teaching of the Waldenses. His position as Keeper of State Archives, giving access as it does to most important documents, has been used by him to investigate the histories of those known as "heretics", and his publications are an invaluable contribution to the understanding of these much misunderstood people. Dr. Keller's book, "Die Reformation und die älteren Reformparteien" is a mine of information and all who can do so should read it. Use has also been made of his book "Ein Apostel der Wiedertäufer" and of a number of others written or issued by him. Of the time of the Reformation, the "Life and Letters of Erasmus" by J. A. Froude, gives a vivid picture, and "A Short History of the English People" by John Richard Green, is a constant help by giving in an interesting and reliable way the historical setting of the particular events related. "England in the Age of Wycliffe" by George Macaulay Trevelyan has been used, and much has been taken from "John Wycliffe and his English Precursors" by Lechher (translated). "The Dawn of the Reformation the Age of Hus" by H. B. Workman, has been used; his references to authorities are valuable. Considerable quotations have been made from Cheltschizki's "Das Netz des Glaubens" translated from Old Czech into German by Karl Vogel. The description of the Moravian Church is based to a large extent on the "History of the Moravian Church" by J. E. Hutton, issued by the Moravian Publication Office, while for Comenius "Das Testament der Sterbenden Mutter" and "Stimme der Trauer", both translations into German from Bohemian, the former by Dora Peřina, the latter by Franz Slaměnik, are quoted. One of the books most used is the very valuable one, "A History of the Reformation" by Thos. M. Lindsay. "Die Taufe. Gedanken über die urchristliche Taufe, ihre Geschichte und ihre Bedeutung für die Gegenwart" by J. Warns, is of great value, especially for the history of the Anabaptists, and its many references to authorities are useful. The important and deeply interesting records of the Anabaptists in Austria are taken from "Fontes Rerum Austriacarum" and other publications by Dr. J. Beck and Joh. Loserth, which are referred to in more detail in the footnotes to the pages where this part of the history is related. The history of the Mennonites in Russia is chiefly found in "Geschichte der Alt-Evangelischen Mennoniten Brüderschaft in Russland" by P. M. Friesen, who was appointed by the "Mennoniten-Brüdergemeinde" as their historian, and supplied by them with the documentary evidence they possessed; use is also made of "Fundamente der Christlichen Lehre u.s.w." by Joh. Deknatel. Of the book by Pilgram Marbeck, "Vermanung etc.", summarized, only two copies are known to exist, one of which is in the British Museum. Very considerable use has been made of the valuable book by Karl Ecke, "Schwenckfeld, Luther und der Gedanke einer Apostolischen Reformation". The chapter on events in France is indebted to the "History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century" by J. H. Merle D' Aubigné, translated by H. White and for Farel, to the "Life of William Farel" by Frances Bevan, one of several interesting works of similar character by the same authoress. Another work by Merle D' Aubigné here made much use of is "The Reformation in Europe in the Time of Calvin", "The Huguenots, their Settlements Churches and Industries in England and Ireland" by Samuel Smiles, gives much of value about the Huguenots. "Un Martyr du Désert Jacques Roger" by Daniel Benoit, tells of the "Churches of the Desert" after the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes.Returning to England, the "Memoir of William Tyndale" by George Offor, is quoted and otherwise referred to. The book most used in the account of the Nonconformists in England is "A History of the Free Churches of England" by Herbert S. Skeats, which would well repay reading; and "A Popular History of the Free Churches" by C. Silvester Horne, gives an interesting account of these churches. The "Laws of Ecclesiastical Polity" of Richard Hooker, is referred to. The "Journal of George Fox" supplies the best information as to his life. Three books which give excellent histories of the spiritual movements in Germany and surrounding countries after the Reformation have been largely made use of: "Geschichte des Christlichen Lebens in der rheinisch-westphälischen Kirche" by Max Goebel; "Geschichte des Pietismus und der Mystik in der Reformirten Kirche u.s.w." by Heinr. Heppe; and "Geschichte des Pietismus in der reformirten Kirche" by Albrecht Ritschl. "John Wesley's Journal" is the best source for an account of his life. "The Life of William Carey Shoemaker and Missionary" by George Smith, supplies most of what is told here of him. The account of the brother Haldane is taken chiefly from the "Lives of Robert and James Haldane" by Alexander Haldane. For Russia and the Stundists, in addition to the "Geschichte etc.," of P. M. Friesen, a useful book is "Russland und das Evangelium" by J. Warns. In the history of the rise of the German Baptists use is made of "Johann Gerhard Oncken, His Life and Work" by John Hunt Cook. For later movements in England etc., some MSS. have been available, and "A History of the Plymouth Brethren" by W. Blair Neatby, has been consulted. Extensive extracts have been made from the "Memoir of the late Anthony Norris Groves, containing Extracts from his Letters and Journals" compiled by his widow, illustrating the important part the teaching and example of Groves played in the history of churches of the New Testament type. " A Narrative of some of the Lord's Dealings with George Müller" has been used as the best account of Müller's influential testimony; and details of the life of R. C. Chapman have been taken from "Robert Cleaver Chapman of Barnstaple" by W. H. Bennet, his personal friend. "Collected Writings of J. N. Darby" edited by William Kelly, is used to show Darby's teaching. "Nazarenes in Jugoslavia" published in the United States by the "Nazarenes", and various pamphlets, give information as to the movement connected with the people bearing this name. The tragedy and glory of "The Pilgrim Church" can only be faintly indicated as yet, nor can they be fully known until the time comes when the Word of the Lord is fulfilled: "there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known" (Matt. 10. 26). At present, albeit through mists of our ignorance and misunderstanding, we see her warring against the powers of darkness, witnessing for her Lord in the world, suffering as she follows in His footsteps. Her people are ever pilgrims, establishing no earthly institution, because having in view the heavenly city. In their likeness to their Master they might be called Stones which the Builders Rejected (Luke 20. 17), and they are sustained in the confident hope that, when His kingdom is revealed, they will be sharers in it with Him. ~~ Like I wrote Cherie, Jesus 2x2 apostolic New Test. Ministry and fellowship has ALWAYS been on the earth read Rev. Chapters 11-12. God has preserved Jesus and the apostles churches like the apple of His eyes.... No force on earth in heaven can STOP it from growing, spread to ALL nations until Jesus RETURNS as king of kings and LORD of lords on earth and the Universe to reign with His people.
Which prove Jesus words/prophesies, promises are correct and TRUE in the gospels. In Matt. 16: 18 Jesus said 2000 yrs ago to Peter, " Upon this Rock I will build MY Church! and the Gates of HELL shall NOT overcome it." Jesus said in Matthew 24: 4-14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in ALL the World for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end comes." In Matthew 28 the Great commission, " And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Acts 1:7-8 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
~~ The same gospel message, the same method 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and fellowship that we read in the gospels, and the book of Acts Jesus Christ and the apostles will continue in EVERY generation to the time of Jesus returns! There is NO 1700 yrs gap! The truth and way of Jesus did NOT die out... then William Irvine and the 2x2 restart it in 1898 to NOW.....The truth, way, and the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship has ALWAYS been on the earth read Rev. chapters 11-12. This is God's promise so there is NO need for anything NEW or anyone to restart it like William Irvine or the 2x2 workers... Jesus Christ the same as Yesterday, today and Forever.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 28, 2018 21:48:01 GMT -5
1100-1500 A.D.
In 1163 a Council of the Romish Church at Tours,[43] called together by Pope Alexander III, forbade any intercourse with Waldenses because they taught "a damnable heresy, long since sprung up in the territory of Toulouse." Before the close of the 12th century there was a numerous Waldensian church in Metz, which had translations of the Bible in use. The church in Cologne had long been in existence in 1150 when a number of its members were executed, of whom their judge said "They went to their death not only with patience but with enthusiasm." In Spain in 1192 King Alfonso of Aragon issued an edict against them and stated that in doing so he was acting according to the example of his predecessors. They were numerous in France, Italy, Austria, and many other countries. In the Diocese of Passau, in 1260, they were to be found in forty-two parishes, and a priest of Passau wrote at that time: "In Lombardy, Provence, and elsewhere the heretics had more schools than the theologians, and far more hearers. They disputed openly, and called the people to solemn meetings in the Market places or in the open fields. No one dared to hinder them, on account of the power and number of their admirers." In Strassburg in 1212 the Dominicans had already arrested 500 persons who belonged to churches of the Waldenses. They were of all classes, nobles, priests, rich and poor, men and women. The prisoners said that there were many like them in Switzerland, Italy, Germany, Bohemia, etc. Eighty of them, including 12 priests and 23 women were given over to the flames. Their leader and elder, named John, declared as he was about to die, "We are all sinners, but it is not our faith that makes us so, nor are we guilty of the blasphemy of which we are accused without reason; but we expect the forgiveness of our sins, and that without the help of men, and not through the merit of our own works." The goods of those executed were divided between the Church and the civil authority, which placed its power at the disposition of the Church. A decretal of Pope Gregory IX, in 1263, declared—"We excommunicate and anathematise all heretics, Cathars, Patarenes, Poor Men of Lyons, Passagini, Josepini, Arnaldistae, Speronistae, and others, by whatever names they may be known, having indeed different faces, but being united by their tails, and meeting in the same point through their vanity." The inquisitor, David of Augsburg, admitted that formerly "the sects were one sect" and that now they hold together in the presence of their enemies. These scattered notices, taken from among many, are sufficient to show that primitive churches were widespread in Europe in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, that in some parts they were so numerous and influential as to have a large measure of liberty, though elsewhere they were subjected to the most cruel persecution, and that, although many names were given to them, and there must have been variety of view among so many, yet they were essentially one, and had constant communication and fellowship with one another. The doctrines and practices of these brethren, known as Waldenses, and also by other names, were of such a character that it is evident they were not the fruits of an effort to reform the Roman and Greek churches and bring them back to more Scriptural ways. Bearing no traces of the influence of those churches, they indicate, on the contrary, the continuance of an old tradition, handed down from quite another source—the teaching of Scripture and the practice of the primitive Church. Their existence proves that there had always been men of faith, men of spiritual power and understanding, who had maintained in the churches a tradition close to that of apostolic days, and far removed from that which the dominant Churches had developed. Apart from the Holy Scriptures they had no special confession of faith or religion, nor any rules, and no authority of any man, however eminent, was allowed to set aside the authority of Scripture. Yet, throughout the centuries, and in all countries, they confessed the same truths and had the same practices. They valued Christ's own words, in the Gospels, as being the highest revelation, and if ever they were unable to reconcile any of His words with other portions of Scripture, while they accepted all, they acted on what seemed to them the plain meaning of the Gospels. Following Christ was their chief theme and aim, keeping His words, imitating His example. "The Spirit of Christ", they said, "is effective in any man in the measure in which he obeys the words of Christ and is His true follower. It is only Christ who can give the ability to understand His words. If anyone love Him he will keep His words." A few great truths were looked upon as essential to fellowship, but otherwise, in matters open to doubt or to difference of view, large liberty was allowed. They maintained that the inner testimony of the indwelling Spirit of Christ is of great importance, since the highest truths come from the heart to the mind; not that new revelation is given, but a clearer understanding of the Word. The portion of Scripture most dwelt upon was the Sermon on the Mount, this being looked upon as the rule of life for the children of God. The brethren were opposed to the shedding of blood, even to capital punishment, to any use of force in matters of faith and to taking any proceedings against such as harmed them. Yet most of them allowed self-defence, even with weapons; so the inhabitants of the valleys defended themselves and their families when attacked. They would take no oaths nor use the Name of God or of Divine things lightly, though on certain occasions they might allow themselves to be put on oath. They did not admit the claim of the great professing Church to open or close the way of salvation, nor did they believe that salvation was through any sacraments or by anything but faith in Christ, which showed itself in the activities of love. They held the doctrine of the sovereignty of God in[Page 99: Church Order]election, together with that of man's free will. They considered that in all times and in all forms of churches there were enlightened men of God. They therefore made use of the writings of Ambrose, Augustine, Chrysostom, Bernard of Clairvaux and others, not accepting, however, all they wrote, but only that which corresponded with the older, purer teaching of Scripture. The love of theological disputation and pamphlet war was not developed among them, as among so many others; yet they were ready to die for the truth, laid great stress on the value of practical piety and desired in quietness to serve God and to do good. In matters of church order they practised simplicity, and there was nothing among them corresponding to that which had grown up in the Church of Rome. Yet the Churches and elders accepted their responsibilities with the utmost seriousness. In matters of discipline, appointment of elders, and other acts, the whole church took part, in conjunction with its elders. The Lord's Supper was in both kinds and for all believers, and was looked upon as a remembrance of the Lord's body given for them and at the same time as a strong exhortation to yield themselves to be broken and poured out for His sake. "As to baptism," writes an opponent, Pseudo-Reimer (1260), "some err, claiming that little children are not saved by baptism, for, they declare, the Lord says 'he that believeth and is baptised shall be saved', but a child does not yet believe." They believed in Apostolic succession through the laying on of the hands of such as had it on those really called to receive this grace. They taught that the Church of Rome had lost this when Pope Sylvester accepted the union of Church and State, but that it remained among themselves. When, however, through circumstances, it was not possible of application, God could convey the needed grace without it. Those whom they called "Apostles" played an important part in their testimony. While the elders and overseers remained in their homes and churches, the "Apostles" travelled continually, visiting the churches. A distinction was made between those called to be "Perfect," and others of the followers of Christ, based on the fact that in the Gospels some were called to sell all that they had and follow Christ, while others of His disciples were equally called to serve Him in the surroundings in which He found them. The Waldensian Apostles had no property or goods or home or family; if they had had these they left them. Their life was one of self-denial, hardship and danger. They travelled in utmost simplicity, without money, without a second suit, their needs being supplied by the believers among whom they ministered the Word. They always went two and two, an elder and a younger man, of whom the latter waited on his older companion. Their visits were highly esteemed, and they were treated with every token of respect and affection. Owing to the dangers of the times they usually travelled as business men and often the younger men carried light wares, as knives, needles, etc., for sale. They never asked for anything; indeed, many undertook serious medical studies that they might be able to care for the bodies of those they met with. The name "Friends of God" was often given to them. Great care was used in commending men to such service, since it was felt that one devoted man was worth more than a hundred whose call to this ministry was less evident. The Apostles chose poverty, but otherwise it was considered a principal duty of each church to provide for its poor. Often, when private houses were insufficient and simple meeting rooms were built, there would be houses attached to these where their poor or aged could live and be cared for. Regular individual reading of the Scriptures, regular daily family worship, and frequent Conferences were among the most highly-prised means of maintaining spiritual life. These saints would take no part in government; they said the Apostles were often brought before tribunals, but it is not ever said that they sat as judges. They valued education as well as spirituality; many who ministered the Word among them had taken a degree at one of the Universities. Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) bore a double testimony to them when he said that among the Waldenses educated laymen undertook the functions of preachers, and again, that the Waldenses would only listen to a man who had God in him. The comparative peace of the Waldensian valleys was broken when, in 1380, Pope Clement VII sent a monk as inquisitor to deal with heretics in certain parts. In the next thirteen years about 230 persons were burnt, the goods of the sufferers being divided between the inquisitors and the rulers of the country. In the winter of 1400 the scope of the persecution was enlarged, and many families took refuge in the higher mountains, where most of the children and women and many men died of cold and hunger. In 1486 a Bull of Innocent VIII gave authority to the Archdeacon of Cremona to extirpate the heretics, and eighteen thousand men invaded the valleys. Then the peasants began to defend themselves, and, taking advantage of the mountainous nature of the country, and their knowledge of it, drove back the attacking force, but for more than a hundred years the conflict continued. The Pilgrim Church Chapter V The Vaudois 70-1700 A.D.
gutenberg.net.au/ebooks10/1000351h.html~~ How could Cherie K. MISSED all the Waldenses 1800 yrs history, who had similar in belief and doctrines as the 2x2 workers?
, get an Overseer to sign a letter saying that the 2x2 Church goes back to the Waldensians, until then this is just more rubbish that you want to believe ! |
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Post by nathan on Nov 28, 2018 22:37:47 GMT -5
NathanB Wrote: To RT, I don't need any overseer. I believe Whathat got it correctly, and he is an ex-2x2, who had been in the fellowship about 30 yrs.
Whathat hits the nail right on the head! This is what I have been trying to say for 25 years..... Cherie K. and MOST ex-2x2 and many 2x2s DO NOT Understand or believe it !! because they believe Cherie Tellinng the Truth website is recording the WHOLE truth history of William Irvine.
2/7/2014 Whathat, an ex-2x2 wrote on the Truth Message Board.
Whathat wrote: "Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Diagram of the Holiness movement (John Wesley founder)....
www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/holiness/Holiness%20Movement.gifAnyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness.
So, this is from Wiki----
It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!)
I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine.
As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians.
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Post by Grant on Nov 29, 2018 1:04:50 GMT -5
People from a wide range of churches attended and still attend keswick convention. They then don't turn around and claim their church is from the waldesians. It means nearly every church could make that claim.
As you see Wesley was Anglican which is from the Catholic church not Waldensians. Your post says Wesley preached the Anglican holiness doctrine. Obvious then the Anglican church was part of the holiness movement. The Moravian church was also a break away from the Catholic church. Wesley was a break away from the Anglican church. The Methodist church was and is a mainstream Christian church.
All part of the protestant movement. Protesting against what? The Catholic church of course. The holiness movement was part of protestantism.
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Post by nathan on Nov 29, 2018 1:37:29 GMT -5
People from a wide range of churches attended and still attend keswick convention. They then don't turn around and claim their church is from the waldesians. It means nearly every church could make that claim. As you see Wesley was Anglican which is from the Catholic church not Waldensians. Your post says Wesley preached the Anglican holiness doctrine. Obvious then the Anglican church was part of the holiness movement. The Moravian church was also a break away from the Catholic church. Wesley was a break away from the Anglican church. The Methodist church was and is a mainstream Christian church. All part of the protestant movement. Protesting against what? The Catholic church of course. The holiness movement was part of protestantism.. |
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Post by Grant on Nov 29, 2018 3:59:25 GMT -5
Of course, the protestants were protesting against the Catholic Church and split from it. Luther would have been the first, I guess.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 29, 2018 17:47:50 GMT -5
NathanB Wrote: To RT, I don't need any overseer. I believe Whathat got it correctly, and he is an ex-2x2, who had been in the fellowship about 30 yrs.
Whathat hits the nail right on the head! This is what I have been trying to say for 25 years..... Cherie K. and MOST ex-2x2 and many 2x2s DO NOT Understand or believe it !! because they believe Cherie Tellinng the Truth website is recording the WHOLE truth history of William Irvine.
2/7/2014 Whathat, an ex-2x2 wrote on the Truth Message Board.
Whathat wrote: "Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Diagram of the Holiness movement (John Wesley founder)....
www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/holiness/Holiness%20Movement.gifAnyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness.
So, this is from Wiki----
It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!)
I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine.
As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians.
this proves nothing! The 2x2 church DOES NOT claim it goes back to the Waldensians ... So until you have an overseer say they do you have nothing but delusions on your part ! |
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Post by nathan on Nov 29, 2018 19:17:14 GMT -5
~~ The early 2x2 were delusion in their parts when they believed and taught William Irvine started the 2x2 in 1897.
Cherie K. (ex-2x2) believes 100% William Irvine was the Founder of the 2x2 in 1897. Early workers said that he was... Early friends said that he was... Relatives stated he was... Faith Mission said that he was... Later Workers said that he was... Newspapers stated that he was... Court Sworn Testimony... Wm. Irvine said that he was... tellingthetruth.info/founder_index/who_founder.phpWhat do YOU think? ~~ NathanB: I think, They are all WRONG on William Irvine the FOUNDER of the 2x2 in 1897. Cherie K. believes Dora Holland was the first person to profess as a 2x2 in William Irvine gospel meetings.
William Irvine and his companion (Faith Mission companion) in 1896 when they were Faith Mission preachers/Workers. There were no 2x2 workers or the friends in 1896 or 1897. IF there were no 2x2 workers or friends in 1897 then how could William Irvine be the FOUNDER of 2x2 in 1897?
William was disciplined by the Faith Mission group in 1898. 7-8 2x2 workers on bicycle mission in 1898. William Irvine convinced John Long to become Faith Mission preachers group in 1898 but he refused, and decided to join the Faith Mission Union Prayer group from 1898-1914.
May Carroll was another of William Irvine converts from the faith Mission in 1897 then she joined the Faith Mission group and became a worker then in 1902 she left the Faith Mission and became a 2x2 worker in 1902.
William Irvine left the Faith Mission group in 12/1900. William Irvine was a Faith Mission from 1895-12/1900. John Long was preaching in 1898 on his own then William Irvine joined him in 12/1900 and many his Faith Mission converts (Dora Holland, Jack, May, Bill and his wife, and a few more younger sisters joined them later on) became what is known the 2x2s friends and workers.
~~ To RT, if the early 2x2 workers, and overseers and MANY of the workers and the friends today, can't even get the starting date of the 2x2 fellowship correctly.... And you expect me to have a approval of an overseer, when they don't even KNOW who are the Vaudois, Poor men of Lyon/France are! Most of them don't know the have existed 1700 yrs before the 2x2s came around in 1900s.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 29, 2018 21:28:21 GMT -5
~~ The early 2x2 were delusion in their parts when they believed and taught William Irvine started the 2x2 in 1897.
Cherie K. (ex-2x2) believes 100% William Irvine was the Founder of the 2x2 in 1897. Early workers said that he was... Early friends said that he was... Relatives stated he was... Faith Mission said that he was... Later Workers said that he was... Newspapers stated that he was... Court Sworn Testimony... Wm. Irvine said that he was... tellingthetruth.info/founder_index/who_founder.phpWhat do YOU think? ~~ NathanB: I think, They are all WRONG on William Irvine the FOUNDER of the 2x2 in 1897. Cherie K. believes Dora Holland was the first person to profess as a 2x2 in William Irvine gospel meetings.
William Irvine and his companion (Faith Mission companion) in 1896 when they were Faith Mission preachers/Workers. There were no 2x2 workers or the friends in 1896 or 1897. IF there were no 2x2 workers or friends in 1897 then how could William Irvine be the FOUNDER of 2x2 in 1897?
William was disciplined by the Faith Mission group in 1898. 7-8 2x2 workers on bicycle mission in 1898. William Irvine convinced John Long to become Faith Mission preachers group in 1898 but he refused, and decided to join the Faith Mission Union Prayer group from 1898-1914.
May Carroll was another of William Irvine converts from the faith Mission in 1897 then she joined the Faith Mission group and became a worker then in 1902 she left the Faith Mission and became a 2x2 worker in 1902.
William Irvine left the Faith Mission group in 12/1900. William Irvine was a Faith Mission from 1895-12/1900. John Long was preaching in 1898 on his own then William Irvine joined him in 12/1900 and many his Faith Mission converts (Dora Holland, Jack, May, Bill and his wife, and a few more younger sisters joined them later on) became what is known the 2x2s friends and workers.
~~ To RT, if the early 2x2 workers, and overseers and MANY of the workers and the friends today, can't even get the starting date of the 2x2 fellowship correctly.... And you expect me to have a approval of an overseer, when they don't even KNOW who are the Vaudois, Poor men of Lyon/France are! Most of them don't know the have existed 1700 yrs before the 2x2s came around in 1900s.
Of course YOU would have it right wouldn't you nathan ! And I suppose you think the F&W should believe what you say !!! YOU ARE NOT A SPOKES PERSON FOR THE 2X2 CHURCH nathan! |
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Post by nathan on Nov 29, 2018 21:50:51 GMT -5
~~ The early 2x2 were delusion in their parts when they believed and taught William Irvine started the 2x2 in 1897.
Cherie K. (ex-2x2) believes 100% William Irvine was the Founder of the 2x2 in 1897. Early workers said that he was... Early friends said that he was... Relatives stated he was... Faith Mission said that he was... Later Workers said that he was... Newspapers stated that he was... Court Sworn Testimony... Wm. Irvine said that he was... tellingthetruth.info/founder_index/who_founder.phpWhat do YOU think? ~~ NathanB: I think, They are all WRONG on William Irvine the FOUNDER of the 2x2 in 1897. Cherie K. believes Dora Holland was the first person to profess as a 2x2 in William Irvine gospel meetings.
William Irvine and his companion (Faith Mission companion) in 1896 when they were Faith Mission preachers/Workers. There were no 2x2 workers or the friends in 1896 or 1897. IF there were no 2x2 workers or friends in 1897 then how could William Irvine be the FOUNDER of 2x2 in 1897?
William was disciplined by the Faith Mission group in 1898. 7-8 2x2 workers on bicycle mission in 1898. William Irvine convinced John Long to become Faith Mission preachers group in 1898 but he refused, and decided to join the Faith Mission Union Prayer group from 1898-1914.
May Carroll was another of William Irvine converts from the faith Mission in 1897 then she joined the Faith Mission group and became a worker then in 1902 she left the Faith Mission and became a 2x2 worker in 1902.
William Irvine left the Faith Mission group in 12/1900. William Irvine was a Faith Mission from 1895-12/1900. John Long was preaching in 1898 on his own then William Irvine joined him in 12/1900 and many his Faith Mission converts (Dora Holland, Jack, May, Bill and his wife, and a few more younger sisters joined them later on) became what is known the 2x2s friends and workers.
~~ To RT, if the early 2x2 workers, and overseers and MANY of the workers and the friends today, can't even get the starting date of the 2x2 fellowship correctly.... And you expect me to have a approval of an overseer, when they don't even KNOW who are the Vaudois, Poor men of Lyon/France are! Most of them don't know the have existed 1700 yrs before the 2x2s came around in 1900s.
Of course YOU would have it right wouldn't you nathan ! And I suppose you think the F&W should believe what you say !!! YOU ARE NOT A SPOKES PERSON FOR THE 2X2 CHURCH nathan !
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 29, 2018 21:56:07 GMT -5
Of course YOU would have it right wouldn't you nathan ! And I suppose you think the F&W should believe what you say !!! YOU ARE NOT A SPOKES PERSON FOR THE 2X2 CHURCH nathan !
No nathan you think you are special and that God has given you some special revelation ! Do you really think any of the F&W take your research seriously..... goodness me once you start with Jesus living in Venus you loose any credibility you may of had ! |
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Post by nathan on Nov 29, 2018 22:16:24 GMT -5
I Just point out the FACTS! The truth hurts.
No nathan you think you are special and that God has given you some special revelation ! Do you really think any of the F&W take your research seriously..... goodness me once you start with Jesus living in Venus you loose any credibility you may of had !
Jude 14-15 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”~Once a person has a TRUE revelation of WHO Christ and Jesus Was and is then you have SOLVED the BIGGEST mystery in the Universe!~~ Jesus The Great " I AM " God
(From The Dead Sea Scrolls found in caves 1947)
I, the Lord God of creation, who was and who is and who shall always be the one true God, the mind, the very center of the Universe, speaks to your own heart. The words that I have spoken to my prophets Moses and others were that he should recognize that the great “I Am.” filled his being with the power and the authority to open his mouth in my name and to proclaim his words as a living words that I placed deeply within him.
I have in times past spoken through the mouths of my prophets and then through the mouths of my apostles. Now the times and seasons are approaching, as are the reasons, when my words shall again be spoken by my obedient prophets and apostles. Their words shall be my words and their deeds that shall be my deeds, because I have spoken this thing before the World was ever formed. Those words that I now speak shall be hidden for a season and then shall be revealed in the last times
I shall cause the Earth to quake and the sunlight, which represents the new dawning, shall shine brightly upon those who are appointed to carry my words from the darkness of the caves to the bright sunlight of my new revelation to all mankind ... and mankind shall read and they shall study those words and they shall find that they are the words that will cause an awakening to occur in the minds of mankind.
It has been said in times past that I am in the wind and I am in the fire and I am into the waters. These words are not true. The truth of this matter is that I am the wind. I am the fire. I am the water. I am in everything and in everything that exists. When you touch the mountain, you touch me. When you are touching the water, you are touching me. When you touch the fire, you are touching me. I am the Lord of the Universe and there is not one place that I am not. I am not in the flowers, the plants, the fruit of the land, but I am the flowers. I am the plants. I am the fruit of the land. Mankind will climb into the heavens. I am not in the heavenly, but I am the heavenly. When I created man from the dust of the Earth, I was the dust of the Earth and I was and am the breath of life that causes mankind to live.
Say not that the Lord your God is in the heavens or on the Earth. I am the heavens and I am the Earth. Now you have received the true revelation of my word, which was spoken to you in times past. The word said that I am everywhere present. I am omnipresent. I am not part of myself, but rather I am the whole of the Universe. Wherever you look, wherever you come or go, whatever you do or say, I am there in the midst of you because I am not only in, but rather I am you!
It shall be written in the future that man is the universe. I say to you that I do not dwell in the universe of mankind, but I am that Universe of Mankind, and there is no separation whatsoever. These words that I have spoken to you at this time and in this place are that you might believe the truth of the message that as my Father is one with me so is the Spirit one with me. Now I am likewise in you and you are in me and that means I am one and you are with me. Have I not spoken these words in the past that I am in you and you are in me? (John 17:21) Jesus said, " That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." Let this testimony be with you forever and forever, as we together traverse the streets of that sojourn from dawn to night. Be at peace and look deeply within yourself and you will find me.
Again I have spoken the words in the past that you are indeed gods. I am your God. This revelation is of utmost importance and you must believe the whole truth as I have spoken it in your pure hearing. I say to you, allow the vibrations of your spirit, your inner ear, be unstopped and hear what the Spirit says to you at this hour. I am the center of your universe, because I am the whole of your universe. Know this, for this is the word of the living God, the Creator of all things which are. In time and seasons to come this word will be revealed to you and you shall behold the brightness of this truth, and you shall say, “This is the light for which I have long awaited. This is the revelation that will hold and maintain me through every experience of life.”
Beware, there are those who would destroy this truth, but they shall not be able to destroy this truth because the truth abides in you and you abide in the truth. I have spoken in times past. And I have said that the truth shall cause many to walk in freedom, out of darkness and satanic bondage. And they shall have no further influence or rule over you. I have spoken these truths by the words of my lips and these words are true. Accept them and you shall live in peace, in joy and in victory over all things. Amen!
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