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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 21, 2017 1:40:17 GMT -5
But the 2x2 group that Irvine started when he left the Faith Mission was different than the Faith Mission which when they had a convert they sent them back to their own churches!
But Irvine gathered their converts to themselves and started a new movement.
You keep trying to trace this 2x2 church back through history to the original disciples of Jesus. It can't be done!
Anyone who knows the history of Christianity knows that there was time where the Catholic Church controlled EVERYTHING and killed all who dared to disagree with them!
Even at a time when nearly all who were professing believed that indeed we did go all the way back to Jesus days, -my husband knew that was impossible simply because he knew HISTORY!
Nathan, I still don't understand why you are on this quest and what you are trying to prove!
Why?
WHY? in the past nearly all professing workers and friends believed the Way and Truth of Jesus did go all the way to Jesus days, and I am here to confirm God's given revelation to them are TRUE.
But there is no god. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 21, 2017 3:17:42 GMT -5
*** Curly, how so? Can you explain what you mean. Thanks. Certainly. I will have to be brief though as you tell so many porkies I could not possibly list them all and nor do I have the time. I will use what you have said about Admiral Byrd as an example that is easily disproved. You say that on a certain date Admiral Byrd was in a place in North America and flew a plane northwards and entered the hollow earth. On that date it is provable that Admiral Byrd was in the southern hemisphere on an expedition in the Antarctic or nearby. You have said that on this expedition of Admiral Byrd that they were attacked by some hostile forces and men and planes were lost. This is also a lie as I have discussed with you before. One plane was lost due to an accident. Several lives were lost due to this accident. I have no longer got the time to look up the exact details but I am sure you could find them on the internet. Wiki is a reasonably reliable source. The sources you have quoted are unreliable and can be proven to be false. Are you the author of these sites? Most people generally go through life doing their best to tell the truth. You have gone out of your way to spread lies about Admiral Byrd. Why would you do that? You claim to be a christian and one of the pillars of christianity is truthfullness. You seem to not know that or are selective about what applies to you. So there you go. Before you tell one of your fantasies on here, check out the authenticity of everything about it and consider whether you should really say it. Repeating them will continue to get people like myself and others to give you a good caning. |
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Post by Greg on Sept 21, 2017 3:40:37 GMT -5
If you had revealed the WHOLE truth about the Faith Mission.... "2x2 apostolic ministry" from the beginning of your TTT website. How William Irvine, John Kelly, May Carroll and most of the early 2x2 workers borrowed the Faith Mission 2x2 apostolic ministry as their own, and they added baptism for their converts, Sunday/communion worship morning New Testament meetings, and so on... Yes, I have one of the two Faith Mission books... I wish you had shown other groups through the ages had similar 2x2 apostolic ministry as the Faith Mission and 2x2 workers it would have given your readers a better understanding of the WHOLE picture of thing! You did a very good job in preserving many of 2x2 history and events... And we cannot know what would be different if the first workers had explained about the Faith Mission connection. Imagine, a real non-denominational religious/Christian group. |
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Post by Grant on Sept 21, 2017 3:47:46 GMT -5
Why would Cherie write about the 2x2 apostolic ministry when the Faith Mission and 2x2s are not the apostolic ministry.
Nathan, many of us left meetings because of being told that the 2x2s have a continuous line back to Jesus when it is not true. You are now making the same story up which the workers are trying to put right. If you look at it we can say that all churches go back to Jesus.
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Post by nathan on Sept 21, 2017 10:03:27 GMT -5
*** Curly, how so? Can you explain what you mean. Thanks. Certainly. I will have to be brief though as you tell so many porkies I could not possibly list them all and nor do I have the time. I will use what you have said about Admiral Byrd as an example that is easily disproved. You say that on a certain date Admiral Byrd was in a place in North America and flew a plane northwards and entered the hollow earth. On that date it is provable that Admiral Byrd was in the southern hemisphere on an expedition in the Antarctic or nearby. You have said that on this expedition of Admiral Byrd that they were attacked by some hostile forces and men and planes were lost. This is also a lie as I have discussed with you before. One plane was lost due to an accident. Several lives were lost due to this accident. I have no longer got the time to look up the exact details but I am sure you could find them on the internet. Wiki is a reasonably reliable source. The sources you have quoted are unreliable and can be proven to be false. Are you the author of these sites? Most people generally go through life doing their best to tell the truth. You have gone out of your way to spread lies about Admiral Byrd. Why would you do that? You claim to be a christian and one of the pillars of christianity is truthfullness. You seem to not know that or are selective about what applies to you. So there you go. Before you tell one of your fantasies on here, check out the authenticity of everything about it and consider whether you should really say it. Repeating them will continue to get people like myself and others to give you a good caning. *** I have answered your doubts many times in the past about Admiral Bryd experience in the North pole, and his time in the hollow earth. You are an atheist and you don't believe in supernatural, the Bible and God. You can repeat all you want but I am not going to waste my time with you on this subject again. The readers can Google on the internet and find the truth for themselves.... Let us stick to William Irvine timeline. |
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Post by nathan on Sept 21, 2017 10:16:46 GMT -5
Why would Cherie write about the 2x2 apostolic ministry when the Faith Mission and 2x2s are not the apostolic ministry. Nathan, many of us left meetings because of being told that the 2x2s have a continuous line back to Jesus when it is not true. You are now making the same story up which the workers are trying to put right. If you look at it we can say that all churches go back to Jesus. *** ALL churches and denominations trace their roots back to either through the RCC or Paul's followers the Vaudois and back to Jesus. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 21, 2017 13:20:57 GMT -5
Certainly. I will have to be brief though as you tell so many porkies I could not possibly list them all and nor do I have the time. I will use what you have said about Admiral Byrd as an example that is easily disproved. You say that on a certain date Admiral Byrd was in a place in North America and flew a plane northwards and entered the hollow earth. On that date it is provable that Admiral Byrd was in the southern hemisphere on an expedition in the Antarctic or nearby. You have said that on this expedition of Admiral Byrd that they were attacked by some hostile forces and men and planes were lost. This is also a lie as I have discussed with you before. One plane was lost due to an accident. Several lives were lost due to this accident. I have no longer got the time to look up the exact details but I am sure you could find them on the internet. Wiki is a reasonably reliable source. The sources you have quoted are unreliable and can be proven to be false. Are you the author of these sites? Most people generally go through life doing their best to tell the truth. You have gone out of your way to spread lies about Admiral Byrd. Why would you do that? You claim to be a christian and one of the pillars of christianity is truthfullness. You seem to not know that or are selective about what applies to you. So there you go. Before you tell one of your fantasies on here, check out the authenticity of everything about it and consider whether you should really say it. Repeating them will continue to get people like myself and others to give you a good caning. *** I have answered your doubts many times in the past about Admiral Bryd experience in the North pole, and his time in the hollow earth. You are an atheist and you don't believe in supernatural, the Bible and God. You can repeat all you want but I am not going to waste my time with you on this subject again. The readers can Google on the internet and find the truth for themselves.... Let us stick to William Irvine timeline. You lack discernment. |
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Post by Grant on Sept 21, 2017 14:04:14 GMT -5
Why would Cherie write about the 2x2 apostolic ministry when the Faith Mission and 2x2s are not the apostolic ministry. Nathan, many of us left meetings because of being told that the 2x2s have a continuous line back to Jesus when it is not true. You are now making the same story up which the workers are trying to put right. If you look at it we can say that all churches go back to Jesus. *** ALL churches and denominations trace their roots back to either through the RCC or Paul's followers the Vaudois and back to Jesus. The 2x2s clearly trace their roots back through the Catholic line. Most protestant churches were part of keswick conventions and the holiness movement which you claim is from the Waldensians so your theory is that most churches are from the Waldensians. The truth is that even the Waldensians trace back to the Catholic Church. A couple of workers visited the kewsick convention, which was run by other churches, the workers were not a part of the convention they were just visitors. You seem to have forgotten the anabaptists. They apparently have no beginning and I'm sure there are others who like the waldensians have merged with other Christians over the years. You've only mentioned the Waldensians of which there is no record that the 2x2s have ever had contact with. |
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Post by snow on Sept 21, 2017 17:27:59 GMT -5
FM doesnt believe they are the "apostolic ministry," are you define it. Wm took some things from FM and left out other things and created a new unrelated, unaffiliated sect, of which you are a member. My book isnt about the FM and what they believe. TNo reason for it to be. There are two very detailed books about FM by experts in FM info. Have you read them both? They are Spirit of Revival and Heritage of Revival. My book is focused on WmI's life and what he created in his lifetime and the 3 groups/sects that his experiment split into, and its way too long already. I'm working away at condensing it.
Yes, I have one of the two Faith Mission books...
I wish you had shown other groups through the ages had similar 2x2 apostolic ministry as the Faith Mission and 2x2 workers it would have given your readers a better understanding of the WHOLE picture of thing!
You did a very good job in preserving many of 2x2 history and events...
Nathan, if the FM was so wonderful and the SAME as the 2x2's then why did Williams Irvine feel the need to start a different organization with his doctrine? |
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Post by snow on Sept 21, 2017 17:31:48 GMT -5
*** ALL churches and denominations trace their roots back to either through the RCC or Paul's followers the Vaudois and back to Jesus. The 2x2s clearly trace their roots back through the Catholic line. Most protestant churches were part of keswick conventions and the holiness movement which you claim is from the Waldensians so your theory is that most churches are from the Waldensians. The truth is that even the Waldensians trace back to the Catholic Church. A couple of workers visited the kewsick convention, which was run by other churches, the workers were not a part of the convention they were just visitors. You seem to have forgotten the anabaptists. They apparently have no beginning and I'm sure there are others who like the waldensians have merged with other Christians over the years. You've only mentioned the Waldensians of which there is no record that the 2x2s have ever had contact with. This is true Enuf. The Waldensians were catholic but wanted some changes made to the way the church worked. When they wouldn't listen they formed their own group which became considered a heretic denomination after awhile. But there were also groups quite similar to them like the Cathars which believed more along the lines that the Gnostic Christians believed. The Cathars believed that the Hebrew God wasn't the primary God but a demi god. They even saw him as somewhat fallen. Lots of different beliefs in all the early groups that it's hard to believe they all come from the same source. Maybe they didn't. Maybe one was Jesus Christianity and the other Paul's Christianity. |
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Post by nathan on Sept 22, 2017 10:00:00 GMT -5
I would have if my research had turned up a link to any group beyond the FM...but it doesnt. What you've shown of some linked groups have gaps and holes in them, and IMO, are tied together by your imagination and will power. Since I haven't, I stick tightly to my single focus...Wm Irvine's life and ministry. FM interests me insofar as WmI spent some time there, and copied some of their beliefs, traditions and jargon, and a handful of workers left FM to become workers with him, and I do tell about this. The field is wide open for others to research FM and other groups. *** I showed you for 25 yrs the link of the Vaudois 2x2 apostolic ministry and New Testment fellowship for 1800 yrs on page 1 of this thread but you REFUSED to believe it. You had Dr. Cornelius book The apostles doctrines and fellowship since 2002. In his book he had written various groups believed and taught Jesus apostolic ministry through the centuries. The last section in Dr. Cornelious book, where he mentioned about the FAITH Mission group based their teaching on Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry... According to John Long journal William Irvine, and his companion Fred Huges who were a FAITH mission preachers had a Bible study with John Long o Matthew 10 in 1898. They converted john long to preach 2x2 workers FAITH line ministry in 1/1899. So, Cherie how can you say the FAITH mission and 2x2 workers do not teach Jesus 2x2 New Testament apostolic ministry? |
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 22, 2017 10:14:43 GMT -5
Where is evidence that "they" converted JL to preach on Faith lines in 1899? I read about it being JL's personal decision to go on Faith Lines. While doing this, he worked with and was associated with various other Protestant ministers. www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/2longjohn.php#1899It would appear that your definition and mine differ of the phrase: "Jesus 2x2 New Testament apostolic ministry."
There were 14 original apostles personally chosen by Jesus. They are the "NT apostolic ministry."
Others in the NT who were referred to as apostles (sent ones) were chosen and sent by others.
Jesus only sent out disciples twice 2x2.The 12 and the 70/72 on particular missions.
What is your definition of "Jesus 2x2 New Testament apostolic ministry?"
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Post by nathan on Sept 22, 2017 12:16:20 GMT -5
If you had revealed the WHOLE truth about the Faith Mission.... "2x2 apostolic ministry" from the beginning of your TTT website. How William Irvine, John Kelly, May Carroll and most of the early 2x2 workers borrowed the Faith Mission 2x2 apostolic ministry as their own, and they added baptism for their converts, Sunday/communion worship morning New Testament meetings, and so on...
Yes, I have one of the two Faith Mission books...
I wish you had shown other groups through the ages had similar 2x2 apostolic ministry as the Faith Mission and 2x2 workers it would have given your readers a better understanding of the WHOLE picture of thing!
You did a very good job in preserving many of 2x2 history and events...
Nathan, if the FM was so wonderful and the SAME as the 2x2's then why did Williams Irvine feel the need to start a different organization with his doctrine? *** Well, faith mission wasn't so wonderful as they thought, according to Impartial news paper report William Irvine and the early workers found out John G. the founder wasn't practicing what he preached...while his FAITH Missions preachers go and live on FAITH but he had hundreds pounds. The FAITH mission allowed their converts to join whatever churches they want or sending them back to their old churches they came out of... Many of William Irvine FAITH mission converts did not want to do that... They became 2x2s in 1899-1900s. FAITH mission didn't baptize their converts but the 2x2 workers baptized their converts in 1902. FAITH Mission do not have communion in their worship meetings but the 2x2 workers started their Sunday morning communion bread and wine around 1901-2. FAITH mission preachers get small amount monthly salary and the 2x2 workers don't. |
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 22, 2017 12:50:55 GMT -5
Nate, could you please provide the date of the Impartial Reporter newspaper that says Govan had "hundreds of pounds"
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 22, 2017 14:30:43 GMT -5
Nate, could you please provide the date of the Impartial Reporter newspaper that says Govan had "hundreds of pounds" *** Go to page 1 of this thread on my 1st article at the bottom page, where I posted impartial news paper report... You can read the whole thing. |
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 22, 2017 19:00:17 GMT -5
Thanks, Nate!
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Post by Greg on Sept 23, 2017 1:39:16 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 23, 2017 3:08:03 GMT -5
Thanks Greg for posting that.
I wonder who the informant was "that was once in the fold?"
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 23, 2017 3:11:02 GMT -5
Thanks Greg for posting that.
I wonder who the informant was "that was once in the fold?"
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Post by snow on Sept 23, 2017 15:19:17 GMT -5
Nathan, if the FM was so wonderful and the SAME as the 2x2's then why did Williams Irvine feel the need to start a different organization with his doctrine? *** Well, faith mission wasn't so wonderful as they thought, according to Impartial news paper report William Irvine and the early workers found out John G. the founder wasn't practicing what he preached...while his FAITH Missions preachers go and live on FAITH but he had hundreds pounds. The FAITH mission allowed their converts to join whatever churches they want or sending them back to their old churches they came out of... Many of William Irvine FAITH mission converts did not want to do that... They became 2x2s in 1899-1900s. FAITH mission didn't baptize their converts but the 2x2 workers baptized their converts in 1902. FAITH Mission do not have communion in their worship meetings but the 2x2 workers started their Sunday morning communion bread and wine around 1901-2. FAITH mission preachers get small amount monthly salary and the 2x2 workers don't. Then it wasn't really an apostolic organization. Irvine started something he thought was more in line with his beliefs of what an apostolic church should be like. Therefore, there has been no link between them all. |
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 23, 2017 15:47:32 GMT -5
NathanB: I believe Whathat hits the nail right on the head! This is what I have been trying to say for 25 years. Cherie K. and MOST ex-2x2 and many 2x2s DO NOT Understand or believe it !! because they believe Cherie K. the owner of TTT website is recording the WHOLE truth history of William Irvine.
~~ 2/7/2014 Whathat, an ex-2x2 wrote on the Truth Message Board. "Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Diagram of the Holiness movement (John Wesley founder)....www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/holiness/Holiness%20Movement.gifAnyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness.So, this is from Wiki---- It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement Anyway, potentially the lineage is: Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!)I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine. As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians. |
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 23, 2017 15:49:14 GMT -5
Cherie's Note: Read my critique of all the things Nate added and omitted from What Hat's post above... professing.proboards.com/post/755859
Quote Rules for Nate: Do you retype all your quotes? If you do, you need to learn how to copy and paste, and you won't have so many errors in your quotes. If you omit a paragraph or word or phrase in a quote, you are supposed to end with ... Punctuation rules: An ellipsis (plural: ellipses) is a punctuation mark consisting of three dots. Use an ellipsis when omitting a word, phrase, line, paragraph, or more from a quoted passage. Ellipses save space or remove material that is less relevant.) Nate omitted the following paragraph without ellipsis When you want to add your comments to a direct quote, they go in [brackets]--that way readers know they were added by you and were not part of the original quote. |
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Post by nathan on Sept 23, 2017 16:04:48 GMT -5
Cherie's Note: Read my critique of all the things Nate added and omitted from What Hat's post above... professing.proboards.com/post/755859
Quote Rules for Nate: Do you retype all your quotes? If you do, you need to learn how to copy and paste, and you won't have so many errors in your quotes. If you omit a paragraph or word or phrase in a quote, you are supposed to end with ... Punctuation rules: An ellipsis (plural: ellipses) is a punctuation mark consisting of three dots. Use an ellipsis when omitting a word, phrase, line, paragraph, or more from a quoted passage. Ellipses save space or remove material that is less relevant.) Nate omitted the following paragraph without ellipsis When you want to add your comments to a direct quote, they go in [brackets]--that way readers know they were added by you and were not part of the original quote. *** whathat wrote many articles on similar subject so I added them up into one post... I added the holiness diagram so the readers have a better idea and history of the Waldenses /vaudois through the centuries... On page 1 I showed the vaudois belief, doctrines, articles of FAITH.... To back up whathat's post. |
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Post by Grant on Sept 23, 2017 16:46:08 GMT -5
Gives a whole different meaning doesn't it Cherie. You add a bit here and a bit there Nathan until it says nothing like the original. You try to rewrite history with your own spin. Better to leave it to the experts.
No matter how much you wish the truth (about the past) wasn't there the truth will always be the truth. History is history, accept it for what it was and decide to learn from it to make a better future.
The workers were obviously embarrassed by their past but it caught up with them. Some seem to be acknowledging their error but for some reason you can't accept it but are still trying to justify it and keep the errors alive. Not only does this stall growth but looks bad for the fellowship.
Your other views that Jesus lives on Mars, that the queen of England and rulers are aliens discredits the fellowship further. You're trying to create a new religion in the name of the 2x2s. How many people do you think who read your website will think what a weird religion the 2x2s are?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 23, 2017 16:48:32 GMT -5
Gives a whole different meaning doesn't it Cherie. You add a bit here and a bit there Nathan until it says nothing like the original. You try to rewrite history with your own spin. Better to leave it to the experts. No matter how much you wish the truth (about the past) wasn't there the truth will always be to truth. History is history, accept it for what it was and decide to learn from it to make a better future. The workers were obviously embarrassed by their past but it caught up with them. Some seem to be acknowledging their error but for some reason you can't accept it but are still trying to justify it and keep the errors alive. Not only does this stall growth but looks bad for the fellowship. Your other views that Jesus lives on Mars, that the queen of England and rulers are aliens discredits the fellowship further. You're trying to create a new religion in the name of the 2x2s. How many people do you think who read your website will think what a weird religion the 2x2s are? Have you any links to websites Nathan runs? I would love to have some entertainment one rainy night. |
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Post by Grant on Sept 23, 2017 16:55:44 GMT -5
Nathan said that his site got deleted but he has saved some and is doing an even better one. For now you may have to entertain yourself with his postings on this board.
A brief yes or no, Nathan as we don't want this removed by the admin. Do you believe that Trump is an alien. Yes or no? A link at the most is ok by me.
Yes / No?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 23, 2017 18:45:11 GMT -5
William Irvine is an alien. I saw this youtube video with him in it.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 26, 2018 14:52:07 GMT -5
nathan : Are you working on or do you have a website now? or has this thread taken the place of your website? Cherie
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