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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 19, 2017 14:55:31 GMT -5
Willie Weir went in the work in 1903, FOUR years after 1899.
Are you going to rewrite 2x2 history for him too so it fits with the incorrect dates in Lizzie Coles account her daughters put together??
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Post by nathan on Sept 19, 2017 15:59:26 GMT -5
Cherie K is giving the facts. You are just adding your spin to them.
Cherie K. Doesn't believe in Jesus apostolic ministry for today or prior to William Irvine days.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 19, 2017 19:33:49 GMT -5
Cherie K is giving the facts. You are just adding your spin to them. *** Cherie K. Facts, dates and years don't match up with John long journal, goodhand Pattision early account and Dizzy Coles writings. Cherie K. Doesn't beieve in Jesus apostolic ministry now or prior to William Irvine days. what is it exactly you are trying to prove ? You make statements that are proven to be WRONG, but you cannot accept that you are wrong, so you twist things to suit whatever your agenda is. CherieKropp backs up her research with facts, you twist things to suit what you want to believe. Have you accepted that you were WRONG about John Hardie yet ? Or do you still believe he wasn't there from the start ? |
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 19, 2017 20:57:25 GMT -5
Seems like Irvine was onto a good thing. Get everyone to give him their money so he could live free. No wonder he wasn't willing for the Faith Mission but to think he was still getting their money while taking everyone elses. I hope you don't re-write history Nathan and make it a fact that Cooney gave his money to Irvine. One thing about Cherie as a reliable historian is that she just writes the facts. You however, add your own spin to things. Reminds me of meeting days when a Bible verses would-be interpreted and reinterpreted to fit into the workers belief.
**** Cherie K. Is NOT Telling the WHOLE truth on her TTT website.
It is the method which she used, -which is as well documented as any academic scholar would wish for!
I don't understand Nathan, why you are on this crusade of yours!
Can you tell us exactly what it is that you are trying to prove?
Just in simply words.
Are you just hung upon dates?
Do you or do you NOT accept that Wm. Irvine with some others began to preach as a group we now call the 2x2's or f&w's at the end of the 1800's?
The exact date doesn't matter that much!
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Post by Greg on Sept 20, 2017 5:36:27 GMT -5
Cherie K is giving the facts. You are just adding your spin to them. I think the author and the facts are what some find objectionable. To begin, the beginning of days in Ireland was nay-say by many perfessin' folks. Now the story seems quite acceptable. Yet an ex is the most prolific writer of the beginning of days! Not someone perfessin'. And laying out the story in facts takes away the "spirit" of the beginning of days and of the growth through the first fifty years. I think she has done a fine job. I find Nathan's spin quite tiring. |
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Post by nathan on Sept 20, 2017 7:38:05 GMT -5
Cherie K is giving the facts. You are just adding your spin to them. I think the author and the facts are what some find objectionable. To begin, the beginning of days in Ireland was nay-say by many perfessin' folks. Now the story seems quite acceptable. Yet an ex is the most prolific writer of the beginning of days! Not someone perfessin'. And laying out the story in facts takes away the "spirit" of the beginning of days and of the growth through the first fifty years. I think she has done a fine job. I find Nathan's spin quite tiring.
When lies become more abundant than the truth then the TRUTH hurts... Galatians 4:16 "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
Someone wrote: It takes integrity and courage to tell the truth, especially in place of an opposition. The truth can hurt but it will always yield good fruit when it is accepted and adhered to. It takes integrity to tell the truth.
People want to know the truth; some are more earnest in this pursuit than others. People want truth, not lies. No one likes to be lied to, especially when they are involved in a matter with the one lying. There are those who get caught in a small lie and make up another lie to cover it up. People will say anything to protect their reputation or life. Sometimes they don’t realize what they are doing, because it’s the fallen human nature at work.
Unfortunately, in our day, lies are more common than the truth. There is a raging battle of truth against lies. So it becomes refreshing to hear the truth spoken and promoted.
The Scripture tells us “the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one” (1 John 5:19). Jesus said of Satan in John 8:44: “He does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of it.” |
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 20, 2017 9:47:58 GMT -5
Who did you copy the reply above from, Nate? Sure doesnt sound like your writing.
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Post by nathan on Sept 20, 2017 10:38:58 GMT -5
Who did you copy the reply above from, Nate? Sure doesnt sound like your writing. *** That why I wrote SOMEONE WROTE: it... I thought that was very good and TRUE. |
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 20, 2017 10:58:52 GMT -5
Oops, sorry. I didn't notice that intro. I tend not to notice red writing. Hard on the eyes.
Might be more effective if you underlined text you want to stand out, rather than type it in red. Easier too.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 20, 2017 13:11:35 GMT -5
I think the author and the facts are what some find objectionable. To begin, the beginning of days in Ireland was nay-say by many perfessin' folks. Now the story seems quite acceptable. Yet an ex is the most prolific writer of the beginning of days! Not someone perfessin'. And laying out the story in facts takes away the "spirit" of the beginning of days and of the growth through the first fifty years. I think she has done a fine job. I find Nathan's spin quite tiring.
When lies become more abundant than the truth then the TRUTH hurts... Galatians 4:16 "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
Someone wrote: It takes integrity and courage to tell the truth, especially in place of an opposition. The truth can hurt but it will always yield good fruit when it is accepted and adhered to. It takes integrity to tell the truth.
People want to know the truth; some are more earnest in this pursuit than others. People want truth, not lies. No one likes to be lied to, especially when they are involved in a matter with the one lying. There are those who get caught in a small lie and make up another lie to cover it up. People will say anything to protect their reputation or life. Sometimes they don’t realize what they are doing, because it’s the fallen human nature at work.
Unfortunately, in our day, lies are more common than the truth. There is a raging battle of truth against lies. So it becomes refreshing to hear the truth spoken and promoted.
The Scripture tells us “the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one” (1 John 5:19). Jesus said of Satan in John 8:44: “He does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of it.” Nathan, have you ever thought that you are the liar that the bible talks about. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 20, 2017 19:10:41 GMT -5
nathan you still have not answered the question, what is it you are trying to prove? Re-read DMG 's post.
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Post by Gene on Sept 20, 2017 19:21:36 GMT -5
nathan you still have not answered the question, what is it you are trying to prove? Re-read DMG 's post. I believe Nathan's aim is to show that the 2x2 church was not founded in 1897; it was founded in 1899. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 20, 2017 20:13:02 GMT -5
nathan you still have not answered the question, what is it you are trying to prove? Re-read DMG 's post. I believe Nathan's aim is to show that the 2x2 church was not founded in 1897; it was founded in 1899.
What difference does 2 years make?
When any group, but I would say especially a religious group, -is still in it's nascent state and just coming into existence and still in a state of flux , it would be hard to pin it down to some exact date like Nathan is trying to do!
The people within the group themselves probably would be hard put to a place an exact date on something like that.
Nathan is knocking himself out over nothing!
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Post by nathan on Sept 20, 2017 20:14:44 GMT -5
nathan you still have not answered the question, what is it you are trying to prove? Re-read DMG 's post. I believe Nathan's aim is to show that the 2x2 church was not founded in 1897; it was founded in 1899.
Cherie K. is NOT telling the Whole Truth.... to her readers from the TTT website.... I have tried to point out these errors for 25 years...
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 20, 2017 20:26:32 GMT -5
I believe Nathan's aim is to show that the 2x2 church was not founded in 1897; it was founded in 1899.
Cherie K. is NOT telling the Whole Truth.... to her readers from the TTT website.... I have tried to point out these errors for 25 years...
It was impossible for there to have been the same kind of Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship prior to William Irvine
You want it to be true but it just COULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE. |
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Post by nathan on Sept 20, 2017 20:55:11 GMT -5
Thanks, Gene.... and I've proven there has always been a Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship Prior to William Irvine and the early 2x2 workers in 1899..... Which Cherie K. does NOT believe there weren't any fellowship/and ministry exist like the 2x2s period.
Cherie K. is NOT telling the Whole Truth.... to her readers from the TTT website.... I have tried to point out these errors for 25 years...
It was impossible for there to have been the same kind of Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship prior to William Irvine
You want it to be true but it just COULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE.
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 20, 2017 21:37:15 GMT -5
What do you mean could NOT have been possible? The Faith Mission ministry group was based on 2x2 apostolic ministry.... Too bad, Cherie K. did NOT mention of this on her TTT website from the beginning! How in the world did Cherie K. missed all of that about the Faith Mission?
my Chapter 4 about Faith Mission? Also Appendix HI also have a bunch of photos about FM in the TTT Photo Gallery, some that I took in person. I even visited FM when we were in Scotland. Was given a tour, and a book Spirit of Revival by Govan's dtr. |
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Post by nathan on Sept 20, 2017 21:44:36 GMT -5
What do you mean could NOT have been possible? The Faith Mission ministry group was based on 2x2 apostolic ministry.... Too bad, Cherie K. did NOT mention of this on her TTT website from the beginning! How in the world did Cherie K. missed all of that about the Faith Mission?
my Chapter 4 about Faith Mission? Also Appendix HI also have a bunch of photos about FM in the TTT Photo Gallery, some that I took in person. I even visited FM when we were in Scotland. Was given a tour, and a book Spirit of Revival by Govan's dtr.
You need to add the Faith Mission statement of Faith, their 2x2 apostolic ministry teaching have Faith in God, Faith Mission pilgrim workers to give up all before enter the ministry....
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 20, 2017 21:56:38 GMT -5
Well, that information wasn't there on TTT website in the beginning for 15 years or longer.... Now, you just added these things with your new website and that is good....
You need to add what the Faith Mission statement of Faith, their 2x2 apostolic ministry....
Now, Nate, YOU are making up stories (lies) about me and my work. I don't take kindly to lies. I did NOT JUST add these things to TTT. There are several links to FM on TTT if someone wants to read their Statement of Faith--they can use the link. I even have one entire book about FM posted on TTT ( Heritage of Revival) that tells all about the FM history. The FM info has been on TTT since I first started writing my book. It's an integral part of Wm Irvine's life story, which my book is a biography about. The FM magazine Bright Words has been on TTT, along with the Impartial Reporter for at least 10 years...as soon as they were typed up, I posted them. BEWARE of accusing me of things on TMB that are not true! |
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Post by nathan on Sept 20, 2017 22:04:49 GMT -5
Well, that information wasn't there on TTT website in the beginning for 15 years or longer.... Now, you just added these things with your new website and that is good....
You need to add what the Faith Mission statement of Faith, their 2x2 apostolic ministry....
Now, Nate, YOU are making up stories (lies) about me and my work. I don't take kindly to lies. I did NOT JUST add these things to TTT. There are several links to FM on TTT if someone wants to read their Statement of Faith--they can use the link. I even have one entire book about them posted on TTT ( Heritage of Revival) that tells all about the FM history. The FM info has been on TTT since I first started writing my book. It's an integral part of Wm Irvine's life story, which my book is a biography about. The FM magazine Bright Words has been on TTT, along with the Impartial Reporter for at least 10 years...as soon as they were typed up, I posted them. BEWARE of accusing me of things on TMB that are not true!
Here you have these information and you don't believe Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry exist with the 2x2s and Prior to William Irvine and the early.
I have pointed these things out to you for 25 years but you refused to believe it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 20, 2017 22:27:14 GMT -5
Nathan, you are simple wrong.
It was impossible for there to have been the same kind of Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship prior to William Irvine
You want it to be true but it just COULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE.
But Irvine gathered their converts to themselves and started a new movement.
You keep trying to trace this 2x2 church back through history to the original disciples of Jesus.
It can't be done!
Anyone who knows the history of Christianity knows that there was time where the Catholic Church controlled EVERYTHING and killed all who dared to disagree with them!
Even at a time when nearly all who were professing believed that indeed we did go all the way back to Jesus days, -my husband knew that was impossible simply because he knew HISTORY!
Nathan, I still don't understand why you are on this quest and what you are trying to prove!
Why? |
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Post by nathan on Sept 20, 2017 22:41:42 GMT -5
What do you mean could NOT have been possible? The Faith Mission ministry group was based on 2x2 apostolic ministry.... Too bad, Cherie K. did NOT mention of this on her TTT website from the beginning! How in the world did Cherie K. missed all of that about the Faith Mission?
But Irvine gathered their converts to themselves and started a new movement.
You keep trying to trace this 2x2 church back through history to the original disciples of Jesus. It can't be done!
Anyone who knows the history of Christianity knows that there was time where the Catholic Church controlled EVERYTHING and killed all who dared to disagree with them!
Even at a time when nearly all who were professing believed that indeed we did go all the way back to Jesus days, -my husband knew that was impossible simply because he knew HISTORY!
Nathan, I still don't understand why you are on this quest and what you are trying to prove!
Why?
WHY? in the past nearly all professing workers and friends believed the Way and Truth of Jesus did go all the way to Jesus days, and I am here to confirm God's given revelation to them are TRUE.
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 20, 2017 22:47:14 GMT -5
Now, Nate, YOU are making up stories (lies) about me and my work. I don't take kindly to lies. I did NOT JUST add these things to TTT. There are several links to FM on TTT if someone wants to read their Statement of Faith--they can use the link. I even have one entire book about them posted on TTT ( Heritage of Revival) that tells all about the FM history. The FM info has been on TTT since I first started writing my book. It's an integral part of Wm Irvine's life story, which my book is a biography about. The FM magazine Bright Words has been on TTT, along with the Impartial Reporter for at least 10 years...as soon as they were typed up, I posted them. BEWARE of accusing me of things on TMB that are not true!
Here you have these information and you don't believe Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry exist with the 2x2s and Prior to William Irvine and the early.
I have pointed these things out to you for 25 years but you refused to believe it.
FM doesnt believe they are the "apostolic ministry," are you define it. Wm took some things from FM and left out other things and created a new unrelated, unaffiliated sect, of which you are a member. My book isnt about the FM and what they believe. TNo reason for it to be. There are two very detailed books about FM by experts in FM info. Have you read them both? They are Spirit of Revival and Heritage of Revival. My book is focused on WmI's life and what he created in his lifetime and the 3 groups/sects that his experiment split into, and its way too long already. I'm working away at condensing it. |
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Post by nathan on Sept 20, 2017 23:01:38 GMT -5
Cherie K. if what you say is TRUE.... that you mention the Faith Mission so how come you didn't mention they believe in 2x2 apostolic ministry in the beginning of TTT website? and you didn't mention William Irvine and the 2x2 workers got the 2x2 apostolic ministry from the Faith Mission in 1899 either.
Here you have these information and you don't believe Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry exist with the 2x2s and Prior to William Irvine and the early.
I have pointed these things out to you for 25 years but you refused to believe it.
FM doesnt believe they are the "apostolic ministry," are you define it. Wm took some things from FM and left out other things and created a new unrelated, unaffiliated sect, of which you are a member. My book isnt about the FM and what they believe. TNo reason for it to be. There are two very detailed books about FM by experts in FM info. Have you read them both? They are Spirit of Revival and Heritage of Revival. My book is focused on WmI's life and what he created in his lifetime and the 3 groups/sects that his experiment split into, and its way too long already. I'm working away at condensing it.
Yes, I have one of the two Faith Mission books...
I wish you had shown other groups through the ages had similar 2x2 apostolic ministry as the Faith Mission and 2x2 workers it would have given your readers a better understanding of the WHOLE picture of thing!
You did a very good job in preserving many of 2x2 history and events...
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 20, 2017 23:15:08 GMT -5
I would have if my research had turned up a link to any group beyond the FM...but it doesnt. What you've shown of some linked groups have gaps and holes in them, and IMO, are tied together by your imagination and will power. Since I haven't, I stick tightly to my single focus...Wm Irvine's life and ministry. FM interests me insofar as WmI spent some time there, and copied some of their beliefs, traditions and jargon, and a handful of workers left FM to become workers with him, and I do tell about this. The field is wide open for others to research FM and other groups.
Regarding similarities...From Chapter 11:SIMILARITIES TO OTHER CHRISTIAN CHURCHES: The Faith Mission books and publications contain typical language and nomenclature prevailing in the 19th century, such as the terms: "profess, some who decided, took their stand, testimony, take part, friends, outsiders, converts, fields, saints and servants, elder, laborers, workers, companions, two by two, the work, go out in the work, offered for the work, great harvest field, missions, spend and be spent, a living sacrifice, speakers on the platform, right/wrong spirit, meetings, lead the meeting, testing the meeting, open the meeting, conventions, special meetings, gospel meetings, testimony meetings," etc. The religious terms or jargon used by Wm. Irvine's workers were not unique--they were much the same as the Christian nomenclature commonly used by the Faith Mission, as well as other churches that also commenced in the 19th and 20th centuries. This may be verified by reviewing the religious publications of that time. Webster's definition of the word "nomenclature" is: "the system or set of names used in a specific branch of learning or activity, as in biology for plants and animals, or for parts of a particular mechanism." People who subscribe to a special way of thinking usually develop a special language or jargon. Most people who become a part of a group or movement soon begin to use the group jargon, which may use common words in new ways. In their formative period, groups frequently adopt and use the doctrines, traditions and organization used by Christian churches of that period or the group they came out of. For example, the Quakers use the words: "thee," "thou" and "wouldst," which were commonly used around 1600 when the Quakers were founded. Catholic, Orthodox, Reformation, Mormon and other religions have retained and continue to use distinctive nomenclature representative of the time period in which they were founded. When a group has distinctive practices and language that can be traced to that commonly used in a particular time period, it is highly probable that time period was when the group commenced. Likewise, when a group's practices and language are the same or similar to that used by another group, it is highly probable that the more recently formed group came out of or splintered off from the older group. A religious ministry claiming to have directly descended from the Apostles and claiming to be a direct continuation of the New Testament church should contain much of the FIRST century terminology and language. But that is not the case with the 2x2 movement. WORKERS LISTS: The Faith Mission printed an ANNUAL list titled “Staff of Workers,” showing the name of each Pilgrim in order by the date they entered the Faith Mission, with the earliest first. The FM founder was always listed first (J. G. Govan - 1886). Under Govan's name, the Pilgrim workers were listed in order by seniority. Likewise, this same format was used for the oldest 2x2 Workers List found to date. On the 1905 Workers List, the name of the founder, William Irvine, is listed first, with John Kelly under him; then the workers who entered the work in 1899, 1900, etc. CONVENTIONS: Both Faith Mission and Keswick Conventions held their annual conventions on Saturday through Tuesday. Irvine held his large scale conventions on those same days also. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 21, 2017 0:27:41 GMT -5
I believe Nathan's aim is to show that the 2x2 church was not founded in 1897; it was founded in 1899.
Cherie K. is NOT telling the Whole Truth.... to her readers from the TTT website.... I have tried to point out these errors for 25 years...
, you have not proven anything ! All you have done is try to say that the Waldensian and who ever else where part of the 2x2 apostolic ministry. But you seem to miss the part about what the Waldensians actually believe and the funny thing is the Waldensians Church is still going today ! But of course they went off course so then the Holiness movement were right, but then they went off course, so then the Faith Mission was right.........do you see a pattern ! |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 21, 2017 0:35:22 GMT -5
FM doesnt believe they are the "apostolic ministry," are you define it. Wm took some things from FM and left out other things and created a new unrelated, unaffiliated sect, of which you are a member. My book isnt about the FM and what they believe. TNo reason for it to be. There are two very detailed books about FM by experts in FM info. Have you read them both? They are Spirit of Revival and Heritage of Revival. My book is focused on WmI's life and what he created in his lifetime and the 3 groups/sects that his experiment split into, and its way too long already. I'm working away at condensing it.
Yes, I have one of the two Faith Mission books...
I wish you had shown other groups through the ages had similar 2x2 apostolic ministry as the Faith Mission and 2x2 workers it would have given your readers a better understanding of the WHOLE picture of thing!
You did a very good job in preserving many of 2x2 history and events...
if you are so concerned about the Faith Mission do your own research and contact the Faith Mission with your finds and see what they have to say ! |
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 21, 2017 0:42:14 GMT -5
FM doesnt believe they are the "apostolic ministry," are you define it. Wm took some things from FM and left out other things and created a new unrelated, unaffiliated sect, of which you are a member. My book isnt about the FM and what they believe. TNo reason for it to be. There are two very detailed books about FM by experts in FM info. Have you read them both? They are Spirit of Revival and Heritage of Revival. My book is focused on WmI's life and what he created in his lifetime and the 3 groups/sects that his experiment split into, and its way too long already. I'm working away at condensing it.
Yes, I have one of the two Faith Mission books...
I wish you had shown other groups through the ages had similar 2x2 apostolic ministry as the Faith Mission and 2x2 workers it would have given your readers a better understanding of the WHOLE picture of thing!
You did a very good job in preserving many of 2x2 history and events...
But why do you think that she should have "revealed the WHOLE truth about the Faith Mission...?"
If I understand what she wanted to accomplish, you might call it her mission statement, -was to give as much information as she could research about this church we refer to as the 2x2's, -the group in which we have an interest.
I know I for one am not interested in the Faith Mission other than that is where Irvine came from.
A writer does have the right to designate their own mission quest and not have to include what anyone else thinks should be there.
Writing is a difficult job, as anyone who has tried it realizes.
As for as Irvine goes, -yes, I am sure he did carry over some Faith Mission ideas.
Every new religious group that breaks away from another group does.
They may believe that they are starting off completely fresh, but in the end they really don't. |
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