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Post by nathan on Sept 13, 2017 7:44:36 GMT -5
Well, Dora Holland might not have joined the Faith Mission, but it was William Irvine, a Faith Mission preacher and his companion she professed through in 1896. Let me repeat it again, Dora Holland was NOT a 2x2 in 1896.... There were no 2x2 worker in 1896-8. Do you understand that?
So, you and Cherie K. believed Dora Holland was a 2x2 is false information... 70 people professed in those meetings, including Jack and his sister May Carroll were NOT 2x2 in 1897 either.
Nathan, I see your point. Were there workers in 1899?
From John Long Journal:
~~ 1/1 1899 John Long joined With William Irvine started on Faith Lines
I started on the new Lines of Faith in God. That morning one pound came to me by post. Faith Lines is a preacher going forth without any fixed or stated salary, neither any public collections at meetings, but just trusting in God to put it into the hearts of God's people to give to the support of them who ministered in spiritual things. If more came in than necessary, learning to abound; if less, learning to suffer lack.
I started on a Matthew Ten walking tour from Roscrea to Rathmolyon in County Meath, with the intention of speaking to every person I met about Christ. This was too much for any person to undertake, as some persons were easier reached than others. However the cross was in it, and the issues and results were good, for nearly every walking tour of that kind led on to definite mission work, and pioneered the way for others afterwards. During that tour I began conversation by personal testimony, asking them would they like to hear what God hath done for my soul? Although I resigned the Colportage work and the salary, I did not as yet cease to be a member of the Methodist Church.
~~ 2/ 1899: Leaving Rathmolyon, I took another short walking tour into Dublin City. While there I met with an old companion Walter Bradley, from Kilrush, a candidate for the Methodist ministry. I am sure a young man would be better fitted for the Lord's work by the experience of four years active service, learning at the feet of Jesus, than four years in college, coming out having to use a manuscript and not able to preach by promptings as the Holy Spirit gives utterance. It’s time that the churches waked up to the fact that it’s not Gold and College that fits for Gospel ministry, but Conversion and the Holy Spirit, 1 Peter 4:11; Acts 20:28.
~~ 3/ 1899: Irvine Weir and George Walker who became two prominent 2x2 workers group/church.
On my return journey, I spent another week in Dublin City, and met with Irvine Weir, George Walker, Albert Quinn, and others who soon afterwards gave up their situations to go fully on the Lord's work.
~~ 4/1899: Jack Carroll, who later became another prominent Overseer 2x2 worker church
From Dublin I returned again to the South, and helped at a mission in Shinrone. About that time, other features of the Lord's work presented themselves; unto them I said, "No," being in the will of God. The Methodist asked me to undertake an evangelistic campaign in a tent during the summer months in the City. Two ladies proposed to send me to D. L. Moody's training school in Chicago. Pastor Harpur asked me to join his band for street preaching in the Southern Counties.
If I had got these chances at the beginning of my experience, I might have accepted them; but having been so clearly led out on Faith Lines, I was afraid of turning aside to the right hand or to the left. Owing to the growing difficulties of getting halls and churches for Gospel missions, Jack Carroll from Nenagh, organised the building of a Wooden Hall, for itinerating mission work; and in one year there were at least dozen built in the British Isles. They were very laborious but a great invention and the mission work done in them was very successful and fruitful as persons came to them who would not attend any place of worship.
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 13, 2017 7:48:14 GMT -5
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Post by nathan on Sept 13, 2017 8:02:21 GMT -5
William Irvine was on the Faith Mission role until late 1900 or so but he had been forming his own band of followers for his a few years before. Why do you think the Faith Mission dismissed him, Nathan? No one has said that Irvine was out on his own in 1896. The date of his first Mission in which he started to form his own following away from the Faith Mission was 1897. 70 converts I think I read. Did 70 names all suddenly appear on the Faith Mission list or was this the start of Irvine's own following? Nathan, there have been groups like the waldensians but they were nothing to do with Irvine. You're slogging a dead horse there. Do the Faith Mission or Waldensians claim an apostolic line like you give them. No, they acknowledge they were started by a man. The Faith Mission worked side by side with churches not in opposition to them. We see the Waldensians have joined with other protestant churches. They don't claim to be the right one nor do they claim the apostolic line but acknowledge being started by a man. Dora and the Carrolls became followers of William Irvine when they were converted by him. The Carrolls only joined the Faith Mission prayer union. It appears that they did not become Faith Mission workers but became workers under Irvine.
Some of Vaudois/Waldenses broke off the main group in 15th century and eventually joined or became the Reformation movement.
When I get back from work I will show you their documents/doctrine where the Vaudois/Waldense proved they taught apostolic succession and they did NOT start by Peter Waldo in 1170 A.D.
~~ Your thinking is not correct.... Jack and May became Faith Mission Prayer Union members. May Carroll became Faith Mission preacher in 1898. Those who professed (70) in Faith Mission lead by William Irvine and his companion in 1896-7 have joined the Faith Mission and some may have joined other churches.
In 1896 Dora Holland professed through William Irvine, a FAITH Mission preacher and his FAITH Mission companion. Dora H was not a 2x2 friend in 1896.
John Long started in the 2x2 work with William Irvine in 1/1899.
Dora Holland started in the 2x2 ministry 1902.
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Post by snow on Sept 13, 2017 13:14:55 GMT -5
Yet her name isn't on the FM list.
So, you and Cherie K. believed Dora Holland was a 2x2 is false information... 70 people professed in those meetings, including Jack and his sister May Carroll were NOT 2x2 in 1897 either.
Nathan, as soon as Irvine started to do his exit from Faith Mission and decided to slowly build his own followers, that is the time the 2x2's started. Before he got the idea the group did not exist as we know it today. Just because he had similar ideas as some of the older denominations doesn't mean that the 2x2 group has consistently existed since the time of Jesus. That's not how it works. |
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Post by Gene on Sept 13, 2017 18:53:30 GMT -5
Nathan, I see your point. Were there workers in 1899?
From John Long Journal:
~~ 1/1 1899 John Long joined With William Irvine started on Faith Lines
I started on the new Lines of Faith in God. That morning one pound came to me by post. Faith Lines is a preacher going forth without any fixed or stated salary, neither any public collections at meetings, but just trusting in God to put it into the hearts of God's people to give to the support of them who ministered in spiritual things. If more came in than necessary, learning to abound; if less, learning to suffer lack.
I started on a Matthew Ten walking tour from Roscrea to Rathmolyon in County Meath, with the intention of speaking to every person I met about Christ. This was too much for any person to undertake, as some persons were easier reached than others. However the cross was in it, and the issues and results were good, for nearly every walking tour of that kind led on to definite mission work, and pioneered the way for others afterwards. During that tour I began conversation by personal testimony, asking them would they like to hear what God hath done for my soul? Although I resigned the Colportage work and the salary, I did not as yet cease to be a member of the Methodist Church.
~~ 2/ 1899: Leaving Rathmolyon, I took another short walking tour into Dublin City. While there I met with an old companion Walter Bradley, from Kilrush, a candidate for the Methodist ministry. I am sure a young man would be better fitted for the Lord's work by the experience of four years active service, learning at the feet of Jesus, than four years in college, coming out having to use a manuscript and not able to preach by promptings as the Holy Spirit gives utterance. It’s time that the churches waked up to the fact that it’s not Gold and College that fits for Gospel ministry, but Conversion and the Holy Spirit, 1 Peter 4:11; Acts 20:28.
~~ 3/ 1899: Irvine Weir and George Walker who became two prominent 2x2 workers group/church.
On my return journey, I spent another week in Dublin City, and met with Irvine Weir, George Walker, Albert Quinn, and others who soon afterwards gave up their situations to go fully on the Lord's work.
~~ 4/1899: Jack Carroll, who later became another prominent Overseer 2x2 worker church
From Dublin I returned again to the South, and helped at a mission in Shinrone. About that time, other features of the Lord's work presented themselves; unto them I said, "No," being in the will of God. The Methodist asked me to undertake an evangelistic campaign in a tent during the summer months in the City. Two ladies proposed to send me to D. L. Moody's training school in Chicago. Pastor Harpur asked me to join his band for street preaching in the Southern Counties.
If I had got these chances at the beginning of my experience, I might have accepted them; but having been so clearly led out on Faith Lines, I was afraid of turning aside to the right hand or to the left. Owing to the growing difficulties of getting halls and churches for Gospel missions, Jack Carroll from Nenagh, organised the building of a Wooden Hall, for itinerating mission work; and in one year there were at least dozen built in the British Isles. They were very laborious but a great invention and the mission work done in them was very successful and fruitful as persons came to them who would not attend any place of worship.
So there were not 2x2 workers in 1898; first appearance was in 1899, right? |
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Post by nathan on Sept 13, 2017 20:06:26 GMT -5
So there were not 2x2 workers in 1898; first appearance was in 1899, right?
John Long a Methodist had Matthew 10 Bible study with William Irvine, when he was STILL a Faith Mission and his Faith Mission companion was Fred Hughes at the time was in 1898. Then soon after 1/899 John Long started in the Faith line work/ministry.
John Long Journal:
~~ 4/ 1898: At that time William Irvine (Faith Mission worker), Fred Hughes (Faith Mission preacher worker) and I (John Long/Methodist) went to Kilkee, where we had a mission in the Methodist Church; also we had the fellowship of W.B. Merrick, my superintendent in the colportage work.
~~ 7/ 1898: While in Kilkee we had a Bible reading on Matthew 10. It was that Bible reading set me first thinking about going on Faith Lines. It was a very remarkable coincident that Edward Cooney turned up next day, for he very soon after gave up a very good situation, and distributed thirteen hundred pounds to the poor, and went fully on the Lord's work, and became a great advocate of preachers going without a stated salary.
However, as a guide to preachers, Matthew 10 should only be taken in conjunction with the other Scriptures and Acts of the Apostles after Pentecost. This is a very important point lest young preachers should attempt that which our Lord never meant and run into catastrophe; as in Matthew 10, that tour was only for a few days, to meet a need and prepare the way for His visit to them. Vs. 10-25.
In Matthew 10 they were not to go to the Gentiles, nor to the Samaritans; after Pentecost they were to be "Witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in Judea and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." Acts 1:8. In Matthew 10 they were to take neither gold, silver, or brass, in their purses nor any luggage; after Pentecost they used money, and carried necessary luggage. Acts 4:34-35; 21:15; 28:30-31. 1 Corinthians 9:14. These words "As ye go preach" gave rise to the name "Go-Preacher." Indeed "Apostle" should be the name instead of "Missionary" for it is mentioned as one of the gifts of our risen Lord, Ephesians 4:11.
*** William Irvine asked John Long "When did God changed this?" he replied, "I supposed it has never changed. "
** William Irvine was discipline by the Faith Mission in 1898.
~~ 12/1900 William Irvine name was no longer on the Faith Mission workers list.
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 13, 2017 21:12:54 GMT -5
I have a spread sheet for every month of every year Irvine was allegedly preaching for Faith Mission, from Jan. 1895 thru Dec 1900. It is taken from their monthly magazine, Bright Words, and shows Irvine's mission location, dates/duration of mission, companion's name (if any) and his FM title. ONLY Irvine's name is shown--without a location or companion--from April 1898 thru Dec 1900. Thats about two years. I surmise the reason only his name was shown was bcs he didn't turn in his reports, so there was nothing known to report about his activities, and no converts made for FM... Check this info out at: www.tellingthetruth.info/newspapers/BrightWords.php |
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Post by nathan on Sept 13, 2017 23:16:00 GMT -5
I have a spread sheet for every month of every year Irvine was allegedly preaching for Faith Mission, from Jan. 1895 thru Dec 1900. It is taken from their monthly magazine, Bright Words, and shows Irvine's mission location, dates/duration of mission, companion's name (if any) and his FM title. ONLY Irvine's name is shown--without a location or companion--from April 1898 thru Dec 1900. Thats about two years. I surmise the reason only his name was shown was bcs he didn't turn in his reports, so there was nothing known to report about his activities, and no converts made for FM... Check this info out at: www.tellingthetruth.info/newspapers/BrightWords.php
William Irvine's companion from the Faith Mission names are mentioned in Goodhand Pattison's account, and John Long Journal. The Faith Mission always sent their pilgrim/workers men and women workers in pairs.... The 2x2 workers are going/preaching pairs brothers and sisters from the Faith Mission method.
The 2x2 yearly workers list came from borrowing the Faith Mission system/method. 2x2 married workers also came from the Faith Mission method. The 2x2 workers stayed in the homes of the friends came from the Faith Mission system.
Many of 2x2 terminologies such as workers, the friends, professing, meetings, gospel meetings, conventions, special meeting, gospel meetings in the tents, etc... and ways of doing things came from the Faith Mission system/method.
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 13, 2017 23:47:42 GMT -5
Prove it!!
NOT!! according to their Location of Workers lists - also the FM Supervisors didn't always go in pairs.
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Post by nathan on Sept 14, 2017 0:29:26 GMT -5
Prove it!! NOT!! according to their Location of Workers lists - also the FM Supervisors didn't always go in pairs.
Testimony of Dora Holland:1896: DORATHY (Dora/Dot) HOLLAND attended Irvine's mission in Kilrush and may have been present at a Magic Lantern service. She was born in January 1, 1876, in Annival, Co. Galway, Ireland and died August 1, 1968. It is generally accepted that Dora was Irvine's FIRST convert to profess. However, the year in which she professed differs according to the narrative; e.g. 1895, 1896 or 1897. Dora wrote: "I...was a governess and lived with a lady in Kilrush, Co. Clare, a Mrs. Wm. Peacocke. It was while I was there that two preachers came along and held meetings in the town. I attended the services. They were held by a Mr. Wm. Irvine from Scotland, and his companion. It was at that time that I made the choice I would yield my life fully to God’s control. I decided then that I would give my life to gospel work sometime, but continued teaching for a few years...I can say that after being over seventeen years in touch with the work...that I have always found that everything in connection with it is in keeping with the highest conceptions of morality..." (letter to Dear Brother, Aug. 11, 1913). (1896-1897, AUGUST 15-SEPTEMBER 16 - NENAGH MISSION, CO. TIPPERARY: Beginning August 1897, Wm. Irvine held a very successful six week Mission in Nenagh:"At his [Wm. Irvine’s] first meeting only five persons attended; but at the closing meeting, there were one hundred present...altogether upwards of thirty persons of position and note got converted; most of them afterwards gave up all that they had to follow Jesus.... At the mission held in Nenagh, a young man named Jack Carroll, also his sister May Carroll, got converted; they had a brother, Bill Carroll, who was a steward at Captain Fowlers, Rathmolyon, County Meath" (Journal, Aug. 1897).
Goodhand Pattison early days account:
G. Pattison also wrote about the success of the Nenagh Mission in which both Jack and May Carroll professed, along with about 40 others, who became Faith Mission Prayer Union members:"Nenagh...had some of its best type powerfully appealed to, and yielded quite a crop of decisions for God, the following being some of them: Miss Oakley, who was then a teacher belonging to the Birr Oakleys, sister of Geo. Loney and cousin of Geo. Coughlan and Mrs. Williams of the Hotel; E. Bradshaw, Allen Harkness and sister, Jack Carroll and sister May; who were then living with their Uncle Pat, an exclusive Plym [Plymouth Brethren]; Dick Norman and a young man named Fred Hughes. This last named went with William Irvine for a little while shortly afterwards and played, sang, etc., also a young man named Wallace, and I think his sister, both from Templederry side, but then in situations in Nenagh. Probably there were others of whom I cannot now remember..." (G.P., Accounts of the Early Days).
From John Long Journal:
~~ 4/ 1898: At that time William Irvine , Fred Hughes (Faith Mission preacher worker) and I (John Long/Methodist) went to Kilkee, where we had a mission in the Methodist Church; also we had the fellowship of W.B. Merrick, my superintendent in the colportage work. ~~ 7/ 1898: While in Kilkee we had a Bible reading on Matthew 10. It was that Bible reading set me first thinking about going on Faith Lines. It was a very remarkable coincident that Edward Cooney turned up next day, for he very soon after gave up a very good situation, and distributed thirteen hundred pounds to the poor, and went fully on the Lord's work, and became a great advocate of preachers going without a stated salary. However, as a guide to preachers, Matthew 10 should only be taken in conjunction with the other Scriptures and Acts of the Apostles after Pentecost. This is a very important point lest young preachers should attempt that which our Lord never meant and run into catastrophe; as in Matthew 10, that tour was only for a few days, to meet a need and prepare the way for His visit to them. Vs. 10-25. In Matthew 10 they were not to go to the Gentiles, nor to the Samaritans; after Pentecost they were to be "Witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in Judea and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." Acts 1:8. In Matthew 10 they were to take neither gold, silver, or brass, in their purses nor any luggage; after Pentecost they used money, and carried necessary luggage. Acts 4:34-35; 21:15; 28:30-31. 1 Corinthians 9:14. These words "As ye go preach" gave rise to the name "Go-Preacher." Indeed "Apostle" should be the name instead of "Missionary" for it is mentioned as one of the gifts of our risen Lord, Ephesians 4:11.
*** William Irvine asked John Long "When did God changed this?" he replied, "I supposed it has never changed. " William Irvine was discipline by the Faith Mission in 1898.From the book of: Cornelius Jaenen book the Apostles Doctrine and Fellowship
The Faith Mission: John G. Govan John G. Govan (1861-1927)... organization the Faith Mission, a Holiness in October 1886 to revive Christian living in mainstream denomination through sending out Unordain in pairs same sex, or married, on the apostolic model. It is understood that the Faith Mission work is essentially itinerant, NOT the establishment of permanent mission stations, but the special mission of places for brief period, passing on afterwards to other parts. We do NOT wish in any way to interfere with denominational preferences and distinctions, but LEAVE those who get help through our missions to ATTACH themselves to WHATEVER church, chapel, or meeting House they choose (non-exclusive teaching). |
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Post by friendly67 on Sept 14, 2017 1:12:20 GMT -5
I believe the years between 1897 and 1901 were transition years. The idea of the current thinking of 2x2s as a separate entity from the Faith Mission was beginning to show in the Nenagh Mission and others around that time. It was not an overnight thing. Some of the folk involved never identified with the Faith Mission, and a change was occurring. The actual date of the 'beginning' is splitting straws. We also need to look at various accounts and views, just as in the four gospels.
All reported the same events, but from different viewpoints.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 14, 2017 2:39:33 GMT -5
Nathan, do you understand the concept of double dipping. Working for more than one employer or clipping the ticket twice. This is what Irvine was doing whilst he was in the employ of FM. Most people would regard that as a devious practice.
He apparently was continuing to take money from the Faith Mission while he was gathering his own group of believers around him.
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Post by nathan on Sept 14, 2017 7:53:42 GMT -5
Nathan, do you understand the concept of double dipping. Working for more than one employer or clipping the ticket twice. This is what Irvine was doing whilst he was in the employ of FM. Most people would regard that as a devious practice.
He apparently was continuing to take money from the Faith Mission while he was gathering his own group of believers around him.
According to John Long Journal: Edward Cooney met William Irvine in 1/1898.In the little town of Borrisokane there is a small Methodist Church, where met a little assembly of Godly believers, who loved to see souls saved; and prayed earnestly for a Revival. My former superintendent, S.W.H. Nesbitt, who left Roscrea, and was stationed at that time in Borrisokane. A Christian commercial traveler, named Edward Cooney, during his business tours, met some of the young converts and being impressed with the genuineness of their testimony was resolved to meet and have an interview with William Irvine. That meeting was a loving one and meant much for the Kingdom of God. How careful we should be regarding first impressions; as they have real and lasting effects the memory of which is not easily erased. A good deal of opposition arose at that time because William Irvine spoke with great authority against the unfaithfulness of the clergy; many threw on the brake, but he refused to be corrected by them believing that God had raised him up to thresh the mountains. The strain of continuous ministry; also the care and charge of young converts affected much the physical health of William Irvine; he was known to preach for five hours, all the while holding the attention of his audience. Concerning the principals of the Doctrine of Christ, he was sound. He believed in the fall of man, in the Atonement, in the Trinity, in the Divinity of our Lord, in the immortality of the soul, in the resurrection of the body, the inspiration of the Bible, in Heaven for the saved, and in Hell for the lost. He believed in a personal Devil, the enemy of God and man. He believed and taught Repentance and that every person can be saved and know it, and that the conditions of Salvation were "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9. He taught that every saved soul is indwelt by the Spirit of Christ; and that the life of Jesus, is the pattern for everyone to imitate and follow; and that the life of forsaking all for Christ's sake was the best to live. The fruits of that teaching resulted in farmers, shop keepers, domestic servants, school teachers, police, soldiers, and persons of every occupation forsaking all that they had to follow Jesus.
Matthew chapter 10 study: William Irvine (Faith Mission) met Edward Cooney, who later became one of prominent members of the 2x2 workers church. Conversion of John Long going Faith Lines. ~~ 4/ 1898: At that time William Irvine (Faith Mission worker), Fred Hughes (Faith Mission preacher worker) and I (John Long/Methodist) went to Kilkee, where we had a mission in the Methodist Church; also we had the fellowship of W.B. Merrick, my superintendent in the colportage work. ~~ 7/ 1898: While in Kilkee we had a Bible reading on Matthew 10. It was that Bible reading set me first thinking about going on Faith Lines. It was a very remarkable coincident that Edward Cooney turned up next day, for he very soon after gave up a very good situation, and distributed thirteen hundred pounds to the poor, and went fully on the Lord's work, and became a great advocate of preachers going without a stated salary. |
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 14, 2017 8:05:56 GMT -5
NOT!! Cooney did not start in the work in 1899...and there is no record that he gave his money "to the work/ministry"--that is speculation, and is not documented.
Edward Cooney’s last appointment before he entered the work full time was to attend the wedding of Bill Carroll and Margaret Hastings held in Borrisokane, Co. Tipperary on June 6, 1901. They later entered the work in 1903 as married couple. View their Wedding Photo.
However, while Cooney was under oath in a 1913 court case, he emphatically stated that he was not the founder of the Sect to Mr. Justice Darling who asked him: "Were you the founder of this sect? Cooney replied: No, William Irvine was the first, about sixteen years ago. I cast in my lot with him as a fellow-preacher, and preached a good deal in the north of Ireland. I recognise the name, but others have nicknamed us ‘The Cooneyites.’ I do not like it myself " (IR, Dec.18, 1913, p. 3).
1901, JUNE 6: COONEY BECOMES A WORKER: In 1901, Cooney gave up his business interests, donated the funds (reportedly 1,300 pounds, a small fortune in those days) and became a Worker in Irvine's movement. Reports vary as to how he donated his money. Some say it went "to the cause," or to Wm. Irvine or "to the poor.
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Post by snow on Sept 14, 2017 11:14:24 GMT -5
Nathan, you'd be better off if you'd just stick to what is written and not always putting your 'twist' on it or adding to it to fit your needed beliefs. It is what it is and trying to deny that the 2x2's weren't founded by Irvine is not necessary. We know that the group called the 2x2's did not exist as we see them today since the time of Christ. Just because there were groups with similar (not exact) doctrine doesn't make the 2x2's exist from the time of Jesus. It doesn't work that way. I am sure there isn't a worker out there that would admit to being a continuance of Cathars or Waldensians. Neither group believed exactly what your group does. When the Waldensians started out they were not much different in their beliefs than the RCC. In fact, they tried to get what they believed accepted by the RCC because they didn't want to be labelled heretics.
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Post by nathan on Sept 14, 2017 11:22:55 GMT -5
Mary Elizabeth Coles (also known as "Lizzie" and "Lily")
(born 1878 - died 1946)
Lily Coles shown on the 1905 Worker List
NOT!! Cooney did not start in the work in 1899...and there is no record that he gave his money "to the work/ministry"--that is speculation, and is not documented. Edward Cooney’s last appointment before he entered the work full time was to attend the wedding of Bill Carroll and Margaret Hastings held in Borrisokane, Co. Tipperary on June 6, 1901. They later entered the work in 1903 as married couple. View their Wedding Photo. However, while Cooney was under oath in a 1913 court case, he emphatically stated that he was not the founder of the Sect to Mr. Justice Darling who asked him: "Were you the founder of this sect? Cooney replied: No, William Irvine was the first, about sixteen years ago. I cast in my lot with him as a fellow-preacher, and preached a good deal in the north of Ireland. I recognise the name, but others have nicknamed us ‘The Cooneyites.’ I do not like it myself " (IR, Dec.18, 1913, p. 3). 1901, JUNE 6: COONEY BECOMES A WORKER: In 1901, Cooney gave up his business interests, donated the funds (reportedly 1,300 pounds, a small fortune in those days) and became a Worker in Irvine's movement. Reports vary as to how he donated his money. Some say it went "to the cause," or to Wm. Irvine or "to the poor.
When I get back from work I will present my findings.~~ 3/ 1898 According to John Long Journal: Edward Cooney met William Irvine, Faith Mission preacher in 3/1898
In the little town of Borrisokane there is a small Methodist Church, where met a little assembly of Godly believers, who loved to see souls saved; and prayed earnestly for a Revival. My former superintendent, S.W.H. Nesbitt, who left Roscrea, and was stationed at that time in Borrisokane. A Christian commercial traveler, named Edward Cooney, during his business tours, met some of the young converts and being impressed with the genuineness of their testimony was resolved to meet and have an interview with William Irvine. That meeting was a loving one and meant much for the Kingdom of God. How careful we should be regarding first impressions; as they have real and lasting effects the memory of which is not easily erased. A good deal of opposition arose at that time because William Irvine spoke with great authority against the unfaithfulness of the clergy; many threw on the brake, but he refused to be corrected by them believing that God had raised him up to thresh the mountains. The strain of continuous ministry; also the care and charge of young converts affected much the physical health of William Irvine; he was known to preach for five hours, all the while holding the attention of his audience. ~~ 4/ 1898: At that time William Irvine (Faith Mission worker), Fred Hughes (Faith Mission preacher worker) and I (John Long/Methodist) went to Kilkee, where we had a mission in the Methodist Church; also we had the fellowship of W.B. Merrick, my superintendent in the colportage work. ~~ 7/ 1898: While in Kilkee we had a Bible reading on Matthew 10. It was that Bible reading set me first thinking about going on Faith Lines. It was a very remarkable coincident that Edward Cooney turned up next day, for he very soon after gave up a very good situation, and distributed thirteen hundred pounds to the poor, and went fully on the Lord's work, and became a great advocate of preachers going without a stated salary.
1/1899 John Long started on Faith Line with William Irvine....
3/ 1899: Irvine Weir and George Walker who became two prominent 2x2 workers group/church.
On my return journey, I spent another week in Dublin City, and met with Irvine Weir, George Walker, Albert Quinn, and others who soon afterwards gave up their situations to go fully on the Lord's work.
4/1899 Jack Carroll, who later became another prominent Overseer 2x2 worker church
5/ 1899 William Irvine, George Walker, Edward Cooney, and Willie Weir went to England.
One bleak, wet day, four strangers knocked at John Coles' rectory door, asking permission to use the Mission Hall for a few weeks in order to have some gospel meetings. These workers were George Walker, William Irvine, Willie Weir and Eddie Cooney. Most of them were fresh over from Ireland. He explained that he couldn't pay them any salary, and they stated that Jesus didn't get a salary, and they didn't expect one either. He told them the congregation was poor and not much in the collection plate, so they told him they didn't take up a collection. He said they were welcome to use the hall. Lizzie offered to play the organ for their nightly services and they accepted. She had never heard such preaching and she was spellbound! Her father, of course, was becoming more and more irritated as their message was slowly being brought home. The difference between his paid ministry and the New Testament Ministry was made so clear. We don't know how long it was before he asked them to leave, but they asked to have one more meeting so they could inform those who were coming, and he granted that wish. They tested that meeting and Lizzie was the only one who saw the difference and had the courage to make her choice. Naturally, her father was furious. His authority over his daughter was irrevocably challenged and his pride was hurt before his whole congregation. In a moment of anger, he ordered her to leave and not ever come back. This date was May 1, 1899; she had turned 21 years of age on April 5 that same year.
Mary Elizabeth Coles (also known as "Lizzie" and "Lily") (born 1878 - died 1946) Lily Coles shown on the 1905 Worker List |
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Post by nathan on Sept 14, 2017 11:41:51 GMT -5
Nathan, you'd be better off if you'd just stick to what is written and not always putting your 'twist' on it or adding to it to fit your needed beliefs. It is what it is and trying to deny that the 2x2's weren't founded by Irvine is not necessary. We know that the group called the 2x2's did not exist as we see them today since the time of Christ. Just because there were groups with similar (not exact) doctrine doesn't make the 2x2's exist from the time of Jesus. It doesn't work that way. I am sure there isn't a worker out there that would admit to being a continuance of Cathars or Waldensians. Neither group believed exactly what your group does. When the Waldensians started out they were not much different in their beliefs than the RCC. In fact, they tried to get what they believed accepted by the RCC because they didn't want to be labelled heretics. *** I showed in the writings where people/readers some how skip it over and they need to pay attention to it to get the WHOLE picture of thing. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 14, 2017 23:58:27 GMT -5
Mary Elizabeth Coles (also known as "Lizzie" and "Lily")
(born 1878 - died 1946)
Lily Coles shown on the 1905 Worker List
NOT!! Cooney did not start in the work in 1899...and there is no record that he gave his money "to the work/ministry"--that is speculation, and is not documented. Edward Cooney’s last appointment before he entered the work full time was to attend the wedding of Bill Carroll and Margaret Hastings held in Borrisokane, Co. Tipperary on June 6, 1901. They later entered the work in 1903 as married couple. View their Wedding Photo. However, while Cooney was under oath in a 1913 court case, he emphatically stated that he was not the founder of the Sect to Mr. Justice Darling who asked him: "Were you the founder of this sect? Cooney replied: No, William Irvine was the first, about sixteen years ago. I cast in my lot with him as a fellow-preacher, and preached a good deal in the north of Ireland. I recognise the name, but others have nicknamed us ‘The Cooneyites.’ I do not like it myself " (IR, Dec.18, 1913, p. 3). 1901, JUNE 6: COONEY BECOMES A WORKER: In 1901, Cooney gave up his business interests, donated the funds (reportedly 1,300 pounds, a small fortune in those days) and became a Worker in Irvine's movement. Reports vary as to how he donated his money. Some say it went "to the cause," or to Wm. Irvine or "to the poor.
When I get back from work I will present my findings.~~ 3/ 1898 According to John Long Journal: Edward Cooney met William Irvine, Faith Mission preacher in 3/1898
In the little town of Borrisokane there is a small Methodist Church, where met a little assembly of Godly believers, who loved to see souls saved; and prayed earnestly for a Revival. My former superintendent, S.W.H. Nesbitt, who left Roscrea, and was stationed at that time in Borrisokane. A Christian commercial traveler, named Edward Cooney, during his business tours, met some of the young converts and being impressed with the genuineness of their testimony was resolved to meet and have an interview with William Irvine. That meeting was a loving one and meant much for the Kingdom of God. How careful we should be regarding first impressions; as they have real and lasting effects the memory of which is not easily erased. A good deal of opposition arose at that time because William Irvine spoke with great authority against the unfaithfulness of the clergy; many threw on the brake, but he refused to be corrected by them believing that God had raised him up to thresh the mountains. The strain of continuous ministry; also the care and charge of young converts affected much the physical health of William Irvine; he was known to preach for five hours, all the while holding the attention of his audience. ~~ 4/ 1898: At that time William Irvine (Faith Mission worker), Fred Hughes (Faith Mission preacher worker) and I (John Long/Methodist) went to Kilkee, where we had a mission in the Methodist Church; also we had the fellowship of W.B. Merrick, my superintendent in the colportage work. ~~ 7/ 1898: While in Kilkee we had a Bible reading on Matthew 10. It was that Bible reading set me first thinking about going on Faith Lines. It was a very remarkable coincident that Edward Cooney turned up next day, for he very soon after gave up a very good situation, and distributed thirteen hundred pounds to the poor, and went fully on the Lord's work, and became a great advocate of preachers going without a stated salary.
1/1899 John Long started on Faith Line with William Irvine....
3/ 1899: Irvine Weir and George Walker who became two prominent 2x2 workers group/church.
On my return journey, I spent another week in Dublin City, and met with Irvine Weir, George Walker, Albert Quinn, and others who soon afterwards gave up their situations to go fully on the Lord's work.
4/1899 Jack Carroll, who later became another prominent Overseer 2x2 worker church
5/ 1899 William Irvine, George Walker, Edward Cooney, and Willie Weir went to England.
One bleak, wet day, four strangers knocked at John Coles' rectory door, asking permission to use the Mission Hall for a few weeks in order to have some gospel meetings. These workers were George Walker, William Irvine, Willie Weir and Eddie Cooney. Most of them were fresh over from Ireland. He explained that he couldn't pay them any salary, and they stated that Jesus didn't get a salary, and they didn't expect one either. He told them the congregation was poor and not much in the collection plate, so they told him they didn't take up a collection. He said they were welcome to use the hall. Lizzie offered to play the organ for their nightly services and they accepted. She had never heard such preaching and she was spellbound! Her father, of course, was becoming more and more irritated as their message was slowly being brought home. The difference between his paid ministry and the New Testament Ministry was made so clear. We don't know how long it was before he asked them to leave, but they asked to have one more meeting so they could inform those who were coming, and he granted that wish. They tested that meeting and Lizzie was the only one who saw the difference and had the courage to make her choice. Naturally, her father was furious. His authority over his daughter was irrevocably challenged and his pride was hurt before his whole congregation. In a moment of anger, he ordered her to leave and not ever come back. This date was May 1, 1899; she had turned 21 years of age on April 5 that same year.
Mary Elizabeth Coles (also known as "Lizzie" and "Lily") (born 1878 - died 1946) Lily Coles shown on the 1905 Worker List Did you read the Footnotes nathan ? |
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Post by nathan on Sept 15, 2017 0:02:01 GMT -5
Mary Elizabeth Coles (also known as "Lizzie" and "Lily")
(born 1878 - died 1946)
Lily Coles shown on the 1905 Worker List
*** I have my doubts about your starting date in the work for Edward Cooney in 1901... I believe Edward Cooney started in the work earlier than that...
When I get back from work I will present my findings.~~ 3/ 1898 According to John Long Journal: Edward Cooney met William Irvine, Faith Mission preacher in 3/1898
In the little town of Borrisokane there is a small Methodist Church, where met a little assembly of Godly believers, who loved to see souls saved; and prayed earnestly for a Revival. My former superintendent, S.W.H. Nesbitt, who left Roscrea, and was stationed at that time in Borrisokane. A Christian commercial traveler, named Edward Cooney, during his business tours, met some of the young converts and being impressed with the genuineness of their testimony was resolved to meet and have an interview with William Irvine. That meeting was a loving one and meant much for the Kingdom of God. How careful we should be regarding first impressions; as they have real and lasting effects the memory of which is not easily erased. A good deal of opposition arose at that time because William Irvine spoke with great authority against the unfaithfulness of the clergy; many threw on the brake, but he refused to be corrected by them believing that God had raised him up to thresh the mountains. The strain of continuous ministry; also the care and charge of young converts affected much the physical health of William Irvine; he was known to preach for five hours, all the while holding the attention of his audience. ~~ 4/ 1898: At that time William Irvine (Faith Mission worker), Fred Hughes (Faith Mission preacher worker) and I (John Long/Methodist) went to Kilkee, where we had a mission in the Methodist Church; also we had the fellowship of W.B. Merrick, my superintendent in the colportage work. ~~ 7/ 1898: While in Kilkee we had a Bible reading on Matthew 10. It was that Bible reading set me first thinking about going on Faith Lines. It was a very remarkable coincident that Edward Cooney turned up next day, for he very soon after gave up a very good situation, and distributed thirteen hundred pounds to the poor, and went fully on the Lord's work, and became a great advocate of preachers going without a stated salary.
1/1899 John Long started on Faith Line with William Irvine....
3/ 1899: Irvine Weir and George Walker who became two prominent 2x2 workers group/church.
On my return journey, I spent another week in Dublin City, and met with Irvine Weir, George Walker, Albert Quinn, and others who soon afterwards gave up their situations to go fully on the Lord's work.
4/1899 Jack Carroll, who later became another prominent Overseer 2x2 worker church
5/ 1899 William Irvine, George Walker, Edward Cooney, and Willie Weir went to England.
One bleak, wet day, four strangers knocked at John Coles' rectory door, asking permission to use the Mission Hall for a few weeks in order to have some gospel meetings. These workers were George Walker, William Irvine, Willie Weir and Eddie Cooney. Most of them were fresh over from Ireland. He explained that he couldn't pay them any salary, and they stated that Jesus didn't get a salary, and they didn't expect one either. He told them the congregation was poor and not much in the collection plate, so they told him they didn't take up a collection. He said they were welcome to use the hall. Lizzie offered to play the organ for their nightly services and they accepted. She had never heard such preaching and she was spellbound! Her father, of course, was becoming more and more irritated as their message was slowly being brought home. The difference between his paid ministry and the New Testament Ministry was made so clear. We don't know how long it was before he asked them to leave, but they asked to have one more meeting so they could inform those who were coming, and he granted that wish. They tested that meeting and Lizzie was the only one who saw the difference and had the courage to make her choice. Naturally, her father was furious. His authority over his daughter was irrevocably challenged and his pride was hurt before his whole congregation. In a moment of anger, he ordered her to leave and not ever come back. This date was May 1, 1899; she had turned 21 years of age on April 5 that same year.
Mary Elizabeth Coles (also known as "Lizzie" and "Lily") (born 1878 - died 1946) Lily Coles shown on the 1905 Worker List Did you read the Footnotes nathan ?  What a joke.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 15, 2017 0:05:24 GMT -5
Did you read the Footnotes nathan ?
Of course you do, you pick and choose what suits your belief nathan ! |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 15, 2017 0:17:07 GMT -5
Of course you do, you pick and choose what suits your belief nathan ! No you don't nathan ! Back up with proof that the footnotes that CherieKropp has posted about Lizzie Cole are incorrect. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 15, 2017 0:40:17 GMT -5
No you don't nathan ! Back up with proof that the footnotes that CherieKropp has posted about Lizzie Cole are incorrect. where have you "proved" that Cherie is incorrect ? Where is your proof that the footnotes are incorrect ? From memory on this thread you stated that John Long had it wrong in his own journal, because what he said didn't agree with your view ! |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 15, 2017 0:43:28 GMT -5
nathan where have you "proved" that Cherie is incorrect ? Where is your proof ?
I have added to my comment nathan ! |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 15, 2017 0:47:24 GMT -5
I hold to the 1897 date that John Long said was when it began. John Long wrote:“…having to leave the Go Preacher fellowship; which God used me so much in, FROM ITS BEGINNING, ten years ago." (John Long's Journal, June, 1907) [Ten years ago = 1897] Wm Irvine started his 2x2 ministry in 1897. The first churches in homes began around 1902.
William Irvine recruited John Long to join the Faith Mission pilgrim/preacher in 1898 after he/William Irvine (a Faith Mission), and his (Faith Mission) companion Fred Hughes and John Long (a Methodist) studied Matthew 10 together.....
John Long became a Faith Mission Prayer union member in 1898-1915 through William Irvine preaching. John Long went preaching Faith line with William Irvine in 1898.
There was NO Go-preachers 2x2 friends and workers in 1897. I think John Long was getting senile about him starting with William Irvine to form 2x2 friends and workers church starting in 1897. There were NO 2x2 worker or friend in 1897.
In 1898 William Irvine was a Faith Mission preacher, and his companion was Fred Hughes who was a Faith Mission preacher also.... NOT John Long. William Irvine was still a full time Faith Mission preacher in 1898. So, there were no friend or 2x2 workers in 1897.
Sorry, John Long.... This is recorded in your Journal so your 1897 starting date for you and William Irvine, the founder of the 2x2 sect is Incorrect!
Here it is nathan ! You have stated that John Long is incorrect about what he wrote in his own journal !!! |
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Post by nathan on Sept 15, 2017 0:53:03 GMT -5
THINK! what John Long wrote for a minute.... According to John Long Journal. In 1897 he was a Methodist... William Irvine, was a Faith Mission preacher in 1897.
William Irvine recruited John Long to join the Faith Mission pilgrim/preacher in 1898 after he/William Irvine (a Faith Mission), and his (Faith Mission) companion Fred Hughes and John Long (a Methodist) studied Matthew 10 together.....
John Long became a Faith Mission Prayer union member in 1898-1915 through William Irvine preaching. John Long went preaching Faith line with William Irvine in 1898.
There was NO Go-preachers 2x2 friends and workers in 1897. I think John Long was getting senile about him starting with William Irvine to form 2x2 friends and workers church starting in 1897. There were NO 2x2 worker or friend in 1897.
In 1898 William Irvine was a Faith Mission preacher, and his companion was Fred Hughes who was a Faith Mission preacher also.... NOT John Long. William Irvine was still a full time Faith Mission preacher in 1898. So, there were no friend or 2x2 workers in 1897.
Sorry, John Long.... This is recorded in your Journal so your 1897 starting date for you and William Irvine, the founder of the 2x2 sect is Incorrect!
Here it is nathan ! You have stated that John Long is incorrect about what he wrote in his own journal !!!
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 15, 2017 1:29:43 GMT -5
I back up with proof and I show it for all to see! believe or not is up to the readers. No you don't nathan ! Back up with proof that the footnotes that CherieKropp has posted about Lizzie Cole are incorrect. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 15, 2017 2:11:36 GMT -5
Did you read the Footnotes nathan ?
If you don't believe Cherie's research is correct nathan, stop using information from her website and do your own research ! |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 15, 2017 2:18:22 GMT -5
Yep! and I disagree with Cherie's footnotes... for years.... Like her idea of William Irvine the founder of the 2x2 1897 starting date. Cherie can't even get that date correct from the start, and she claims to be a 2x2 historian or researcher. What a joke.
If you don't believe Cherie's research is correct nathan , stop using information from her website and do your own research ! If Nathan is plagarizing then Cherie could go to a lawyer and take him to court for theft of intelectual property. |
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What a joke.