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Post by recentarriver on Jul 17, 2006 16:29:37 GMT -5
I am curious just how many workers there are who know the truth about "Truth" and if it is apparent in what they preach. Any insights you care to share? (Thanks...ra)
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Post by they on Jul 17, 2006 17:28:34 GMT -5
I am curious just how many workers there are who know the truth about "Truth" and if it is apparent in what they preach. Any insights you care to share? (Thanks...ra) they all do because truth is not of man but of God and if Jesus be in them, then they have and know truth as to what you are thinking of, it is only the truth known to man, not of God
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Post by prue on Jul 18, 2006 6:49:12 GMT -5
That the Truth is always delivered by a human vessel? We all know that. In fact, our preachers are examples of humans bringing the Gospel. It never comes any other way.
Bert
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Post by howard on Jul 18, 2006 6:51:39 GMT -5
Ive seen this term a lot on here, but not sure I understand it.
What do you mean by "the truth about the truth"?
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Post by prue on Jul 18, 2006 7:01:58 GMT -5
Howard - the nice folk on this board like to point out that our ministry started with a man, and that it is not from an unbroken, direct line to the Apostles. They then like to say that this is a "secret." Bert
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Post by jxr on Jul 18, 2006 7:21:22 GMT -5
Bert, The day the workers preach the reality of the F&W beginning, or openly responded to a question regarding the same, is the day the secret is broken. Until then, it is still a secret.
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Post by Bert on Jul 18, 2006 7:32:01 GMT -5
jxk - I asked the workers was it true about the 19th century origin of current line of workers and was told "yes."
Only the Catholics hold to the notion of a church in an unbroken line of leaders to the first Apostles.
I have never heard any worker preach about William Irvine. I have never heard them preach about any other worker, either.
Any ideas how Irvine and his generation kept their secret from people back then?
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jul 18, 2006 7:38:30 GMT -5
jxk - I asked the workers was it true about the 19th century origin of current line of workers and was told "yes." Only the Catholics hold to the notion of a church in an unbroken line of leaders to the first Apostles. I have never heard any worker preach about William Irvine. I have never heard them preach about any other worker, either. Any ideas how Irvine and his generation kept their secret from people back then? From what I understand the "unborken chain" and "not by man" and "William Irvine was just a worker who had gone bad and who heard form another worker" came about in the lives of the second generation of U.S. converts. The workers and the first generation new the real story, but decided to remain moslty silent, in general.
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Post by howard on Jul 18, 2006 7:42:58 GMT -5
Bert and jxr thanks for the explanation. In my experience I have never heard this fairy story preached that our fellowship has existed in its current form since the bible days. I have (by contrast) discussed with numerous workers the beginnings in the late 1800s and Irvine, Weir, Walker, Cooney et al.
If thats the "truth about the truth", then its no startling revelation, in fact its old hat. A shame that some think otherwise, or worse, have been told differently.
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Post by Bert on Jul 18, 2006 8:00:07 GMT -5
Greg - we take offense to the implication that as the gospel is preached by a man, then it must come only from that man. That's a cop-out, and one of the oldest justifications in the bible. As I have stated many times here - if there was no so-called 2x2 ministry, and I started it myself, I would not want people to focus upon me. Bert
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Post by las logged out on Jul 18, 2006 9:57:58 GMT -5
I would say it's about half don't know and half know I would 2nd guess more then that doesn't know?
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Post by TM on Jul 18, 2006 10:55:47 GMT -5
In my experience I have never heard this fairy story preached that our fellowship has existed in its current form since the bible days. This is history revisionism at its finest. Furthermore "howard", you are a liar and a troll, something proven in this thread:
professing.proboards16.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1153132298
You are a fraud. Your credibility is shot.If what you say here is true then answer the question posed by the thread author: "I am curious just how many workers there are who know the truth about "Truth" and if it is apparent in what they preach. Any insights you care to share?"These workers you claim to have discussed this with: Do they admit William Irvine's role in starting the Truth? Do they admit the occurrence of excommunications? Do they admit that there are doctrinal controversies in the church? Do they admit that there are doctrinal changes occuring (slowly)in the church? Do they admit that there has been and even still is some effort to conceal many of these things from the membership? What have they said (if anything) regarding exclusivity? The "truth about truth" is much broader than you give it credit for; even the things I've mentioned above are just a small overview of things going on in the church that thousands of members are totaly unaware of. If you really believe this - If it really weighs heavy on your heart - then from this point forward, you will feel convicted to see to it that no one else is misled; You will take every opportunity to share tell others what you know regarding the real facts about Truth.
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Post by TM on Jul 18, 2006 10:58:53 GMT -5
This is stricly a guess on my part, but I'd say less than a third know, and I've heard none actually own up to it, either in conversation or prayer/preaching.
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Post by wow on Jul 18, 2006 11:00:01 GMT -5
Bert and jxr thanks for the explanation. In my experience I have never heard this fairy story preached that our fellowship has existed in its current form since the bible days. I have (by contrast) discussed with numerous workers the beginnings in the late 1800s and Irvine, Weir, Walker, Cooney et al. If thats the "truth about the truth", then its no startling revelation, in fact its old hat. A shame that some think otherwise, or worse, have been told differently. Howard has indicated in another thread (Why the Fuss?) that he joined the fellowship as an adult. This explains a lot. I am a 3rd generation, B&R, (mid- USA). My family has been associated with the F&Ws since 1923. It occurred to me while reading Howard's post that the fellowship must be going through a awkward transition stage. It appears that the Workers are now trying being more honest with the (relatively) newcomers. Yet, there remains the core of 3rd + 4th generation B&Rs who were taught "this fairy story". It must be somewhat dicey reconciling the two groups, (the ones who were taught "this fairy story" and the ones who were given a more factual account.) There are at least two generations of B&Rs left in North America that will have to die off before everyone in the fellowship can be on the same page, so to speak. The truth about the historic origins of the fellowship would, of course, be "no startling revelation" to someone to whom the facts have been revealed early on in his association with the Worker's Sect. Such a person could easily sweep the matter away with "A shame some think that way". ("or worse, have been told that"). Only a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th generation B&R could possibly understand the depth of the deception that was foisted upon us trusting rubes (N Amer) in the days before the internet. Howard, I have to believe you when you relate "In my experience.......". However, your experience is extremely limited when compared with the combined experience of generations of B&Rs in North America. This has been no trivial matter. You are in error to treat it as such. It is due, in part, to the internet that the Workers now understand that they must be more forthcoming about the factual history of their sect (with the newcomers, that is). They know that the information is now readily available on the internet, and that their old standby "fairy story" won't fly. If the fellowship still consisted of isolated pockets of adherents with limited means of information exchange, the "fairy story" would still be alive and well in North America. The "fairy story" has flourished from 1923 (that I know for fact) right up to the time that personal computers became affordable to the average family. If the Workers would have condemned computer ownership in the same manner that they condemned TV ownership, they might have been able to forestall the end of "the fairy story" for another generation.
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Post by las logged out on Jul 18, 2006 11:24:14 GMT -5
I would like to encourage all ex2x2s to bare with those 2x2s just finding out the truth about the truth
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Post by las logged out on Jul 18, 2006 11:31:17 GMT -5
I would bet there are many 2x2s that do not want to know anything neither? Where have i heard that echo before?
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Post by ilylo on Jul 18, 2006 11:46:12 GMT -5
Bert and jxr thanks for the explanation. In my experience I have never heard this fairy story preached that our fellowship has existed in its current form since the bible days. I have (by contrast) discussed with numerous workers the beginnings in the late 1800s and Irvine, Weir, Walker, Cooney et al. If thats the "truth about the truth", then its no startling revelation, in fact its old hat. A shame that some think otherwise, or worse, have been told differently. This post alone demonstrates the limited experiences of Howard with regards to 2x2ism on a broader scale. And no, Howard, this is not coming from some "hateful spiteful ex", as you so eloquently put it. Howard - the nice folk on this board like to point out that our ministry started with a man, and that it is not from an unbroken, direct line to the Apostles. They then like to say that this is a "secret." Bert Bert, until the time that ALL 2x2 workers universally step forward and declare openly that their ministry started around 1897 by William Irvine, then yes, a "secret" will continue to be perpetrated by the workers. The fact is that the workers universally do not acknowledge the 1897 founding, and therein lies the problem.
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Post by ClayRandall on Jul 18, 2006 11:50:31 GMT -5
Bert and jxr thanks for the explanation. In my experience I have never heard this fairy story preached that our fellowship has existed in its current form since the bible days. I have (by contrast) discussed with numerous workers the beginnings in the late 1800s and Irvine, Weir, Walker, Cooney et al. If thats the "truth about the truth", then its no startling revelation, in fact its old hat. A shame that some think otherwise, or worse, have been told differently. Howard, In another thread you stated that there is no salvation outside the Fellowship of Friends & Workers. If you believe there is no salvation outside your own fellowship AND that your fellowship's origins are in the very late 1800s, what happened to all the people who existed before your fellowship? professing.proboards16.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1153132298&page=2#1153210067
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Post by Sure on Jul 18, 2006 12:07:27 GMT -5
I would like to encourage all ex2x2s to bare with those 2x2s just finding out the truth about the truth Don't know how that will help, but OK.
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Nichole M
Senior Member
I John 1:5 ..... God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Posts: 486
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Post by Nichole M on Jul 18, 2006 15:34:12 GMT -5
I am curious just how many workers there are who know the truth about "Truth" and if it is apparent in what they preach. Any insights you care to share? (Thanks...ra) If you are referring to Wm Irvine and how the 2x2's got started - I would say all of them. The reason I say this is because my 1st year in the work my companion said there were something that she wanted to tell be just in case someone brought it up. This was Wm Irvine being the founder. Tho she gave an explanation of how he really wasn't the founder. She said she wanted me to have the answer before someone asked me about it. That was the 1st time I heard of the 2x2's having a beginning as being b&r I had always heard that this way went clear back to Jesus. At that time I accepted her answer. But as a worker this was something not to talk about except if asked about. When I left the 2x2's a few months back - I told my aunt that I had left (she is a 2x2) one of the things came up was Wm Irvine - She had never heard of him nor ever heard of a founder - She had only heard that this went all the way back to Jesus. I know that they still preach that this goes all they way back to Jesus as that is what was being preached in the meetings here in Oregon just before I left. Nichole
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Post by las logged out on Jul 18, 2006 16:00:32 GMT -5
My mother was hooked line and sinker in the 2x2s she always believed the 2x2s were Gods only way She isn't to blame and may God bless her she has long passed on now
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Post by a believer on Jul 18, 2006 16:23:55 GMT -5
Yes, I agree Nichole. 2x2s who speak with me don't believe a man started the group. They might have heard something about it but they go quickly into denial and don't believe it.
Most have never heard it. Very few have ever heard the name William Irvine, in fact no one that i have talked to have heard this name. Some of the older folk have heard the name Cooney but say that he wasn't willing for the truth and left to start his own group.
Cooney appears to have been one of th more honest workers who wasn't willing to compromise and leave the basic principals of the group. He wanted to go where the spirit led but the others changed the rules and stared putting workers over set areas.
Those who have heard that someone started the group say it is just a story by bitter exes who are not willing. It apears a to be the unwillingness of those in this group to accept the truth and honesty about their group. They dismiss anything that does not fit in with anything they have heard from the workers.
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Post by seekingtruth on Jul 18, 2006 17:30:21 GMT -5
Howard - you don't tell us where you're from and where you heard about Irvine and Cooney and... I've been around a few years (62) and had the privilege of being in a meeting at convention where an older brother worker named churches and who the founders were. Interesting, he never mentioned Irvine or Cooney. His point? That this was not started by a man/men. Sorry, you and Pruebert can talk to you're blue but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I was deceived - I resent that.
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Post by jxr on Jul 18, 2006 17:54:46 GMT -5
jxk - I asked the workers was it true about the 19th century origin of current line of workers and was told "yes." Only the Catholics hold to the notion of a church in an unbroken line of leaders to the first Apostles. I have never heard any worker preach about William Irvine. I have never heard them preach about any other worker, either. Any ideas how Irvine and his generation kept their secret from people back then? Bert, You framed your question nicely, and of course the workers would have, perhaps reluctantly, admitted that the current line of workers originated in the late 19th century. But this implies that there were other workers in prior generations, and that there is somehow some connection of authority between all these groups.. And if you haven't heard workers preaching or talking about other workers, then you must be dozing at most conventions. Conventions are the prime place for edifying anecdotes about the work in other places. William Irvine probably did't bother about holding a secret, and probably because he didn't subscribe to the apostolic succession fable. WI had his own life philosophy (he was crapped off by the mainstream denominations), so he was preaching an alternative to denominational orthodoxy. Have a read of Parker's The Secret Sect, and you'll probably get an understanding of how WI ticked. It was probably subsequent generations of workers, wanting more legitimacy, who propagated this apostolic succession dogma. Of course, with information scarce at the time, holding to such dogma was a pretty safe bet. Nowdays, you can't as easily get away with such clap-trap.
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Post by ilylo on Jul 18, 2006 18:05:33 GMT -5
I have never heard any worker preach about William Irvine. I have never heard them preach about any other worker, either. The second sentence of this quote is a flat-out lie unless Bert happens to be deaf (literally). Sorry for the parsing, but when dealing with the likes of Bert, one must.
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Post by guest5 on Jul 18, 2006 18:35:54 GMT -5
Seeking truth - Yes you are getting up there but I have you beat quite a bit and do know of workers that have spoken of WI and EC. No big deal. I worked for one of the very first workers that came to the US from Ireland after he decided to marry a lady with a nice farm. And why don't many speak of WI and EC? Cause they were like ex-communicated and what happens today to people who quit going to meeting. Aren't they completely forgotten about, accidentally on purpose? Think about it. Plus there are still some Cooneyites around and about. Check with them. Doesn't really matter. You are only going to believe what you want to and that most likely is nothing.
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Post by las logged out on Jul 18, 2006 19:28:42 GMT -5
Yes, I agree Nichole. 2x2s who speak with me don't believe a man started the group. They might have heard something about it but they go quickly into denial and don't believe it. Most have never heard it. Very few have ever heard the name William Irvine, in fact no one that i have talked to have heard this name. Some of the older folk have heard the name Cooney but say that he wasn't willing for the truth and left to start his own group. Cooney appears to have been one of th more honest workers who wasn't willing to compromise and leave the basic principals of the group. He wanted to go where the spirit led but the others changed the rules and stared putting workers over set areas. Those who have heard that someone started the group say it is just a story by bitter exes who are not willing. It apears a to be the unwillingness of those in this group to accept the truth and honesty about their group. They dismiss anything that does not fit in with anything they have heard from the workers. Thats why something should be done like gov't involvement newspaper adds spreading this message about the truth we need a big time push over the newspaper sections
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Post by jxr on Jul 18, 2006 20:29:55 GMT -5
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