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Post by Guest on Jul 18, 2006 21:39:11 GMT -5
I haven't been on the "in" for many many years, but I was 3rd gen B&R and spent some of my early adulthood as an active and genuine member. I still make sure I clear a spot in my calendar to take mother to the annual convention of her choice. I have always enjoyed a good amount of conversation, meals, and friendly fellowship with friends and workers.
To me it really doesn't take a genius to understand the workers position. As far as they are concerned the Christian church, the church they are part of, started with Jesus. His church is a spiritual church. They recognize this. At least the ones I've talked to do. The voices demanding that they must confess that it started with W.I., as far as they are probably concerned, are barking up the wrong tree.
The way it looks to me, those that demand such "come clean" confessionals are likely to be people who actually did join a church that started with W.I. I guess they assume everyone else was just like them. It's funny how people can hear the same thing and take it different. I'm no Christian, but I would think that any Christian who has an honest relationship with God, inside or outside of the 2x2's, would understand the difference too. I have little problem finding those among the friends and workers who know the difference. I know a number who I presume don't too. Candidates as future ex's I would say. I suspect those that know the difference and grew up understanding it, or figured it out along the way, aren't likely to be affected by the W.I. Revelation. Those who joined what I would call the W.I. church and hoped to get to know God by association, are likely to get all shook up.
In thinking about this one day. With some irony, I remembered reading something Jesus said about why some people ‘got’ what he was talking about and some didn't. It was something about "to you it is given..." which I guess meant that to the others it was not - or not yet?? Personally I don't go along with any of that "revealed to the worthy" truck, it's a bunch of elitist attitude imo, but that IS what Jesus said.
I was listening to an ex being upset about "the big lie" one day, and since I knew there was a difference in perception (and teaching as a result) I suggested that maybe he missed the message, and just didn't "get it" per Jesus explanation ..... Sheesh, that was a big mistake. Red face, occasional dodging of spit bits, finger wagged in my face. Easy fella I thought, don't be so d__m self righteous. I guess Jesus teaching doesn't go over very big with such types. For lack of a personal connection to Jesus, they have to blame others for not being properly taught by them.
Some years ago I had a chance to chat with the one of the older workers. I believe he professed or joined the work in the 30's or 40's. I was curious about the difference of understanding out there, and how he felt. He just said, yes he was aware that some felt "that" way. But he did not seem particularly upset about it. He indicated a confidence that this would take care of itself in due time by anyone who turned to God, which is what he preached. It’s a nice sanguine faith to have, but knowing people, I think it’s a little naive.
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Post by jxr on Jul 18, 2006 22:46:22 GMT -5
... But he did not seem particularly upset about it. He indicated a confidence that this would take care of itself in due time by anyone who turned to God, which is what he preached. It’s a nice sanguine faith to have, but knowing people, I think it’s a little naive. I agree, this worker's position is reasonable and wise, particularly given that some form of the F&W fellowship will carry on ad-infinitum. There is always a spectrum of views, and there will always be a spectrum of responses to any preaching about the beginnings (from either doctrinal position). But you have to admit that a segment of the F&W are riled, to varying degree, by the preaching that the F&W ministry has some continuity to the early churches. Add to this the exclusivist views and disparaging/condecending tone toward other Christian denominations. If the workers preached a quiet confidence in the salvation that they offer/preach, then nobody would have any issues. It's like any sales job. As soon as you deride the competition, you've pretty much lost the sale, unless the customer is weak and caves in under high pressure sales tactics. More so when you haven't established what the prospective customer's prejudices are. Further more, when you are selling simultaneously to a diverse population (a congregation), you have to reign in any assumptions about the level of prejudice.
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Post by yesthanks on Jul 18, 2006 23:58:42 GMT -5
jxk - I asked the workers was it true about the 19th century origin of current line of workers and was told "yes." Only the Catholics hold to the notion of a church in an unbroken line of leaders to the first Apostles. I have never heard any worker preach about William Irvine. I have never heard them preach about any other worker, either. Any ideas how Irvine and his generation kept their secret from people back then? if irvine message was for people to follow him, then he was in error. The way I understand that his ''original'' message must have been to follow the way that was from the 'beginning' as he did not claim to be starting a new way, but was making an effort to follow the original way. So it would be correct that this way ariginated when it was first preached, and the revelations following have continued to reveal the way as it has always been. It is a way that continues today.
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Post by yesthanks ed on Jul 19, 2006 0:01:33 GMT -5
jxk - I asked the workers was it true about the 19th century origin of current line of workers and was told "yes." Only the Catholics hold to the notion of a church in an unbroken line of leaders to the first Apostles. I have never heard any worker preach about William Irvine. I have never heard them preach about any other worker, either. Any ideas how Irvine and his generation kept their secret from people back then? if irvine message was for people to follow him, then he was in error. The way I understand that his ''original'' message must have been to follow the way that was from the 'beginning' as he did not claim to be starting a new way, but was making an effort to follow the original way. So it would be correct that this way originated when it was first preached [1985 years ago], and the revelations following have continued to reveal the way as it has always been. It is a way that continues today.
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Post by ilylo on Jul 19, 2006 0:03:31 GMT -5
Edited for historical accuracy...
So it would be correct that this way (2x2ism) originated when it was first preached in 1897, and the revelations following have continued to reveal the way as it has always been since 1897. It is a way that continues today since 1897.
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Post by seekingtruth on Jul 19, 2006 0:12:34 GMT -5
Guest5 - Are you applauding ex-communication? If you are a 2x2 then you believe that going to meetings is the only way to have salvation. If the purpose is to save souls then casting them out is damnation, wouldn't you say? Scary!
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Post by thanks ed on Jul 19, 2006 0:28:09 GMT -5
Edited for historical accuracy...So it would be correct that this way (2x2ism) originated when it was first preached in 26 AD, and the revelations following have continued to reveal the way as it has always been since 26 AD. It is a way that continues today since 26 AD.
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Post by ilylo on Jul 19, 2006 0:46:49 GMT -5
If you believe that the way of the workers (aka 2x2ism) existed prior to 1897, simple locate one of the following, bearing a date earlier than 1897:
1. hymn written by a friend or worker 2. printed hymnbook 3. photograph of a worker or friend 4. workers' list 5. letter written by a worker or friend 6. convention date list or speakers list 7. notes of any convention, funeral or meeting
...or find just one person who:
1. had a family member to profess prior to 1896 2. had heard of anyone professing prior to 1896 3. has known of any workers prior to 1896
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Post by prue on Jul 19, 2006 7:36:13 GMT -5
nichole m - why did you leave the work? i was shocked to read your post
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Post by prue on Jul 19, 2006 7:42:34 GMT -5
to guest - hi. i liked what you wrote. it is very perceptive of the true issue. we follow a way which was from the beginning, even if our church started in 2005
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Post by prue on Jul 19, 2006 7:45:20 GMT -5
to ed - we dont believe the gospel really started in ad26. you can read the gospel all through the old bible. abraham and jacob spoke of the messiah. so too did david and isaiah. it wasnt new in ad 26
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Post by prue on Jul 19, 2006 7:48:24 GMT -5
ilylo - please give it a rest. our conversation has moved on from the argument you continually throw up - please read what guest wrote above on #28 prue
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timber
Senior Member
Posts: 249
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Post by timber on Jul 19, 2006 8:07:39 GMT -5
Pruebert:
Respectfully, the reason Ilyo keeps bringing up the same issue is because it is never answered with any clarity. You know that it is true there are workers out there who speak of Paul and Timothy, for example, as workers. Guest's post above reminds me of the belief of "the way within the way". That is, there are some who want to live or have a faith that is superficial, that is, based on the religious trappings of the group - pride in the special gatherings of conventions, in the "uniqueness of the workers going out 2x2, of the meeting in the home", and then there are those who desire to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, realizing the conversion from within, the developing of self - holiness, compassion, love, etc. In this, we can share our journey with MANY, MANY sincere Christians be they Catholic, Baptist, 2x2, or Lutheran..
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Post by spiderman on Jul 19, 2006 8:11:44 GMT -5
I haven't been on the "in" for many many years, but I was 3rd gen B&R and spent some of my early adulthood as an active and genuine member. I still make sure I clear a spot in my calendar to take mother to the annual convention of her choice. I have always enjoyed a good amount of conversation, meals, and friendly fellowship with friends and workers. To me it really doesn't take a genius to understand the workers position. As far as they are concerned the Christian church, the church they are part of, started with Jesus. His church is a spiritual church. They recognize this. At least the ones I've talked to do. The voices demanding that they must confess that it started with W.I., as far as they are probably concerned, are barking up the wrong tree. The way it looks to me, those that demand such "come clean" confessionals are likely to be people who actually did join a church that started with W.I. I guess they assume everyone else was just like them. It's funny how people can hear the same thing and take it different. I'm no Christian, but I would think that any Christian who has an honest relationship with God, inside or outside of the 2x2's, would understand the difference too. I have little problem finding those among the friends and workers who know the difference. I know a number who I presume don't too. Candidates as future ex's I would say. I suspect those that know the difference and grew up understanding it, or figured it out along the way, aren't likely to be affected by the W.I. Revelation. Those who joined what I would call the W.I. church and hoped to get to know God by association, are likely to get all shook up. In thinking about this one day. With some irony, I remembered reading something Jesus said about why some people ‘got’ what he was talking about and some didn't. It was something about "to you it is given..." which I guess meant that to the others it was not - or not yet?? Personally I don't go along with any of that "revealed to the worthy" truck, it's a bunch of elitist attitude imo, but that IS what Jesus said. I was listening to an ex being upset about "the big lie" one day, and since I knew there was a difference in perception (and teaching as a result) I suggested that maybe he missed the message, and just didn't "get it" per Jesus explanation ..... Sheesh, that was a big mistake. Red face, occasional dodging of spit bits, finger wagged in my face. Easy fella I thought, don't be so d__m self righteous. I guess Jesus teaching doesn't go over very big with such types. For lack of a personal connection to Jesus, they have to blame others for not being properly taught by them. Some years ago I had a chance to chat with the one of the older workers. I believe he professed or joined the work in the 30's or 40's. I was curious about the difference of understanding out there, and how he felt. He just said, yes he was aware that some felt "that" way. But he did not seem particularly upset about it. He indicated a confidence that this would take care of itself in due time by anyone who turned to God, which is what he preached. It’s a nice sanguine faith to have, but knowing people, I think it’s a little naive. Dear Guest, Perception is not the problem. The problem is exclusivity. There's nothing wrong with a church that started with W.I. or anyone else. It's when they begin to say, as Irivne and company did in 1904, that they are the only Christians saved, and salvation only comes from hearing a worker. That was false doctrine. One of the next big mistakes was hiding Irvine altogether and telling people that this way was from the beginning, implying that todays workers are an unbroken chain of preachers and apostles stemming from the original twelve. That is why over 30 years ago I and many others believed that this was "the truth". How could it not be, believing this? Then when you find it was all a lie and then a cover up it brings the whole house of cards down. Unless you don't care and can be comfortable with the immense pretence of it all, you leave as we and others have. As for the workers admitting the truth about Irvine, I couldn't care less.
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Post by prue on Jul 19, 2006 8:16:11 GMT -5
yes timber we continue to answer your point, all the time - only people like to keep banging away at it as if we had never spoken - paul the elder was in the work with timothy the younger at one stage and he used the word workers - we are sure that if they called themselves disciples or apostles in the same way as the first 12 people would call them liars and make an issue out of them instead of their doctrine - just like they do today
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Post by prue on Jul 19, 2006 8:25:44 GMT -5
no spiderman i think you are wrong - we are not exclusive - our faith is open to everyone Jesus was open to everyone but he ALSO said that not everyone who called him lord lord would enter the kingdom - a lot was asked of those who wanted to enter as the way is narrow - and one of the signs was that those who followed Jesus loved one another - i dont see love but long story of hate between timbers catholics and baptists and lutherans
kind regards
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timber
Senior Member
Posts: 249
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Post by timber on Jul 19, 2006 8:59:39 GMT -5
Pruebert wrote: and one of the signs was that those who followed Jesus loved one another
Yes. I experienced this once recently. A loving worker took the time to berate me in front of a table full of other workers. Then in another conversation, I was threatened by another worker for asking a question in a respectful manner. I understand the need to be corrected, but this tactic was to humiliate, not to uplift. Then, I was unemployed for awhile. Very, very few friends took the time to ask how I was doing. Still, I am not perfect, so I certainly believe in forgiving and forgetting.
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Post by Killing on Jul 19, 2006 9:06:13 GMT -5
These misunderstandings are different to so-called Christians killing one another, isn't it? It sounds like you are not forgetting and not forgiving
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Post by Do workers kill on Jul 19, 2006 9:07:37 GMT -5
These misunderstandings are different to so-called Christians killing one another, isn't it? It sounds like you are not forgetting, not forgiving and not discriminating.
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Post by Exd on Jul 19, 2006 11:35:36 GMT -5
Guest5 - Are you applauding ex-communication? If you are a 2x2 then you believe that going to meetings is the only way to have salvation. If the purpose is to save souls then casting them out is damnation, wouldn't you say? Scary! Excommunication.... I wonder if it ever occurs to anyone that exiting and excommunication both result from the same spirit..... I can't have fellowship with you anymore.....
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Post by mrleo on Jul 19, 2006 11:43:00 GMT -5
I don't think it's that simple, and I dislike the use of the word "spirit" when what we really mean is circumstance or attitude. The results are certainly the same (no longer having fellowship), but the circumstances and the attitude of exiting vs. being excommunicated may be vastly different from each other.
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Post by Or WE on Jul 19, 2006 11:48:36 GMT -5
Guest5 - Are you applauding ex-communication? If you are a 2x2 then you believe that going to meetings is the only way to have salvation. If the purpose is to save souls then casting them out is damnation, wouldn't you say? Scary! Excommunication.... I wonder if it ever occurs to anyone that exiting and excommunication both result from the same spirit..... I can't have fellowship with you anymore..... Or WE don't want to have fellowship with you anymore because you don't look like us, act like us, have a TV, don't get to every meeting, disagree with some of us, etc..etc.. You have wear a brown bag and we all have plastic bags.
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Post by ilylo on Jul 19, 2006 12:09:07 GMT -5
ilylo - please give it a rest. our conversation has moved on from the argument you continually throw up - please read what guest wrote above on #28 prue If you can't provide anything listed in reply #35, you should then follow your own advice about resting.
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timber
Senior Member
Posts: 249
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Post by timber on Jul 19, 2006 13:32:28 GMT -5
workers do not kill wrote: These misunderstandings are different to so-called Christians killing one another, isn't it? It sounds like you are not forgetting, not forgiving and not discriminating. Li
I'd like to ask you a question: "In what concrete ways do 2x2s show their love to one another". Are these ways any different than what you might find among Catholics, Lutherans, etc..If not, then one could say that they too love one another and thus qualify as followers of Jesus. Do all of them love one another. No of course not. We are all fallible.
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Post by Wrong on Jul 19, 2006 15:06:46 GMT -5
Guest5 - Are you applauding ex-communication? If you are a 2x2 then you believe that going to meetings is the only way to have salvation. If the purpose is to save souls then casting them out is damnation, wouldn't you say? Scary! Excommunication.... I wonder if it ever occurs to anyone that exiting and excommunication both result from the same spirit..... I can't have fellowship with you anymore..... Wrong. Suicide and Murder are two very different things. (Note: Death here = Cult membership death)
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Post by Exd on Jul 19, 2006 15:10:54 GMT -5
I don't think it's that simple, and I dislike the use of the word "spirit" when what we really mean is circumstance or attitude. The results are certainly the same (no longer having fellowship), but the circumstances and the attitude of exiting vs. being excommunicated may be vastly different from each other. Thanks for yours mrleo. My purpose in bringing up similarities, is to find common ground. I don't know if there's any heart for that, but it's worth a shot. Perhaps some might see that the justification of one can be the justification of the other, with likewise the condemnation of one the condemnation of the other. Here's a couple of thoughts. Is anyone willing to add to this list? The circumstances for both versions seem to stem from personal effrontery and/or doctrinal intolerance. I see a lot of similarity there. How you look at it depends on who does it to who first. And that's about what it amounts to, who does it to who first. Both parties seem to be aggrieved that they've been ex'd. Both can be sad that it’s happened. Both can be glad. Misunderstandings abound Misrepresentations abound Both parties do a lot of self justification after the act, - and condemnation of the other. After some time, both parties, usually (?), may be willing to admit that they probably weren't very perfect during the lead up to nor the divorcement proceedings. C'mon guys, anybody willing to do a mea culpa? There’s a lot of talent here. Which is another similarity, mea culpa often helps the healing.
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Post by a believer on Jul 19, 2006 15:40:41 GMT -5
Seeking truth - Yes you are getting up there but I have you beat quite a bit and do know of workers that have spoken of WI and EC. No big deal. I worked for one of the very first workers that came to the US from Ireland after he decided to marry a lady with a nice farm. And why don't many speak of WI and EC? Cause they were like ex-communicated and what happens today to people who quit going to meeting. Aren't they completely forgotten about, accidentally on purpose? Think about it. Plus there are still some Cooneyites around and about. Check with them. Doesn't really matter. You are only going to believe what you want to and that most likely is nothing. So you worked for one of the very first workers that came to the USA. You must be older so how many people have you told that your group was started by Irvine and not by Jesus as most in meetings believe. Yes, there were people around in the early days that knew about Irvine and Cooney but this was soon hushed up and the lie started that this group was not started by any man and those who say it was are just bitter. I was surprised to hear after I left meetings from a couple that they always knew it was started by a man having come from Ireland and were surprised to be told to keep quiet about it when they moved overseas. My grandparents and another couple knew Cooney as a worker but they had never heard of Irvine or that it was started by any man. \ So my question is you knew about the group being started by Irvine, how many other people do you know have heard the name Irvine associated as the founder of your group? You are obviously the person who was on here a few weeks ago who used another name stating that she was in her 80s.
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Post by a believer on Jul 19, 2006 15:58:38 GMT -5
There must be a lot of stupid people out there that don't really understand what the workers are saying when they say this way goes back to Jesus. That every other church was started by man except ours
All those that believe what the workers say when they say that we have not founder and that we go back to Jesus, unlike other churches, have no understanding and no Holy Spirit guiding them according to the post above. How pathetic from posters like Prue, guest and others who try to rationalize away and protect the workers words by rationalizing them away. It is plain clear what the workers were saying. Those who believe what the workers said, interpreted it all wrong as post #28 suggests that these people never had the spirit in the first place and were set to leave from the beginning.
The fact that this group was started by a man is important because the workers made it important by claiming that it was started by Jesus. Those who see the lie for what it is are the honest ones. They are not willing to compromise and have stood for truth. Those who do not accept how important it is to tell the truth and go into denial about the importance of preaching the truth clearly and simply, are the ones that are not being honest. There are 2 groups here; those who know plainly what the workers are saying and those who try to rationalize their words away. There is no argument over what the workers are saying when they say this was is from the beginning. This has been witnessed by many intelligent people. The history is important because the workers made it important. It is easy to see the rationalization of some on this board to protect the workers.
If one thing is a lie then the whole thing is a lie.
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